Theo John transferring?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

So, can we move on to Jarrod Lovette vs Luke Fisher?

Not hypothetical enough to get really angry about.  Let's do Eke vs. McMorrow instead.

[Pakuni]

Not hypothetical enough to get really angry about.  Let's do Eke vs. McMorrow instead.

Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro

[Galway Eagle]

Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro

Niv Berkowitz vs Harry Frolling.

[pbiflyer]

Theo is a way better 3 point shooter than Davante!

[tower912]

I appreciate Gardner for what he did on the offensive end.   I think of him as a 6'7, 300 lb Rowsey.   Amazing on one end of the floor.   Indifferent on the other.

[MU82]

This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.

That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.

Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.

In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).

Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.

Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.

Well stated, brew.

And I'll add that many of Theo's fouls, especially his soph and junior years, were moving screens -- not defensive fouls at all.

[MU82]

Lenny

Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?

How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.

Are the people who vote for All Big East more knowledgeable than Coach K? Some here think he has made Theo some kind of charity case.

[keefe]

Are the people who vote for All Big East more knowledgeable than Coach K? Some here think he has made Theo some kind of charity case.

Mike

That's fallacious and you know it.

The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.

Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.

Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.

It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career. 

[The Lens]

Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro

I'm losing it.  Did Kevin Menard actually attend MU?  Did he play 1 year and transfer like Ron Howard?

[Nukem2]

I'm losing it.  Did Kevin Menard actually attend MU?  Did he play 1 year and transfer like Ron Howard?

Yep, transferred to Carthage College in Kenosha.

[wadesworld]

Mike

That's fallacious and you know it.

The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.

Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.

Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.

It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career.

Are the Duke alums that aren't excited about adding Theo the same people that are the Washington hoops fans that are convinced Hopkins is absolutely killing it at Washington?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Lenny

Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?

How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.

Uncircumcised Philistines.

[The Lens]

I was doing some Patrick Baldwin Jr twitter searches last week and found a Duke fan tweeting:

"Get me Baldwin and Theo John and I am a happy man"

[Lennys Tap]

I appreciate Gardner for what he did on the offensive end.   I think of him as a 6'7, 300 lb Rowsey.   Amazing on one end of the floor.   Indifferent on the other.

Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?

People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.

Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.

[The Sultan]

Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?

People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.

Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.

With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in. 

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?

People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.

Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.

Two different players.  Theo never had the hands that Davante had and never will. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

Typical scoop lol

[Lennys Tap]

With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in.

Maybe, Fluff, but my selective memories of Gardner's accomplishments include:

1. Two Big East 6th Man of the Year Awards.

2. A 2nd team All Big East selection.

3. An NCAA tournament All Region team

4. A regular season Big East Championship

5. 7 NCAA tournament wins, 2 S16s and an Elite 8.

6. Marquette's MVP in 2013-14

I could go on, but what would you say Theo's top 6 individual and team accomplishments were at Marquette? People want to say they're hard to compare because they're "different types of players"? OK, a lot of truth in that. But as to who was the better, more accomplished basketball player - no contest.

[Goose]

Debating Devante and Theo? I would have thought that would last about 15-20 seconds, not a couple of days.

[brewcity77]

With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in.

Exactly. Davante was a fine role player on some good teams. As soon as he had to be the man, the team turned terrible. He was never suited to be more than that good role player. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend he's more than what he was.

[rocky_warrior]

The struggle to be, or at least sound "right" is real.

FWIW, if you all add "in my opinion" instead of saying "it isn't debatable" - you're all right!

[keefe]

Debating Devante and Theo? I would have thought that would last about 15-20 seconds, not a couple of days.

The 15 second debate. Rick Pitino: A Man for the Ages or a Flash in the Pan?

[cheebs09]

I think the lack of offensively skilled big men we had prior to Davante inflated his abilities. I do remember he was a bit of a black hole at times. It doesn't shock me that his efficiency metrics wouldn't be the greatest.

I think Theo fits with modern basketball more than Davante would. As others have said, both brought value to the table, but they were at their best as role players.

[MU82]

Mike

That's fallacious and you know it.

The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.

Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.

Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.

It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career.

Okey dokey. You have stated your opinion, as I did mine. Have a good one.

[forgetful]

The big difference between the two players in my opinion is this.

Theo came in as a hard nosed athlete who lacked fundamentals. He improved dramatically on the offensive end of the floor, while learning to control himself more on defense to be an intimidation presence, who could stay on the floor for extended periods. By the time he was a senior, we tried to run parts of the offense through him, forcing other teams to double. He quickly learned how to pass the ball out of double teams and was actually an effective post passer. His progress was impressive to anyone actually watching the games. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment were inspiring.

Gardner came in with crafty offensive skills, but was worthless on defense and was limited by the fact that he was out of shape. Gardner graduated as a skilled offensive player, who was still worthless on defense and was still limited by the fact that he never got himself in shape. My recollection of him was a person who grumbled all the time, focused on himself, and didn't seem to be concerned with dealing with his weaknesses. If he had Theo's work ethic, and focused on getting himself in good physical condition and learning to play hard nosed defense, he would have been amazing. He didn't.

As others have said. Give me Theo. I'll surround him with offensive players. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment alone would be well worth it.