Theo John transferring?

[NCMUFan]

Best thread in a long time.

[MuggsyB]

The big difference between the two players in my opinion is this.

Theo came in as a hard nosed athlete who lacked fundamentals. He improved dramatically on the offensive end of the floor, while learning to control himself more on defense to be an intimidation presence, who could stay on the floor for extended periods. By the time he was a senior, we tried to run parts of the offense through him, forcing other teams to double. He quickly learned how to pass the ball out of double teams and was actually an effective post passer. His progress was impressive to anyone actually watching the games. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment were inspiring.

Gardner came in with crafty offensive skills, but was worthless on defense and was limited by the fact that he was out of shape. Gardner graduated as a skilled offensive player, who was still worthless on defense and was still limited by the fact that he never got himself in shape. My recollection of him was a person who grumbled all the time, focused on himself, and didn't seem to be concerned with dealing with his weaknesses. If he had Theo's work ethic, and focused on getting himself in good physical condition and learning to play hard nosed defense, he would have been amazing. He didn't.

As others have said. Give me Theo. I'll surround him with offensive players. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment alone would be well worth it.

There is no doubt Davante was grossly out of shape.  His Sr. year, despite decent stats, was monumentally disappointing.  He clearly gained weight and showed poor discipline by consuming vast amounts of food and calories. 

However, that fact that he gorged on junk food, seemingly didn't care, and it's fair to question his work ethic, doesn't mean it's relevant to this discussion.  We are analyzing the two players and their overall skill level and value to the program.  Cam Marotta may have had 5 times the work ethic than Allen Iverson.  Again, this has nothing to do with their value and skill level as a member of a basketball team.

Now "attitude" can inspire teammates and be infectious.  But not as much as timely buckets or in Davante's case: his overall vibe and ability to entertain.  The crowd at the BC absolutely loved Davante as did his teammates.  You could  feel the energy in the building when he was carving up dudes down on the block on a regular basis.  So while work ethic and attitude may have applied to Theo, they did not lead to making the players around him better.  Nor did they motivate them or provide more enthusiasm in the crowd unlike Davante.  The fact is being in better condition, having a better work ethic, and supposedly a better attitude are totally irrelevant when comparing these players.

[ATL MU Warrior]

The struggle to be, or at least sound "right" is real.

FWIW, if you all add "in my opinion" instead of saying "it isn't debatable" - you're all right!

What fun is that?

[The Sultan]

There is no doubt Davante was grossly out of shape.  His Sr. year, despite decent stats, was monumentally disappointing.  He clearly gained weight and showed poor discipline by consuming vast amounts of food and calories. 

However, that fact that he gorged on junk food, seemingly didn't care, and it's fair to question his work ethic, doesn't mean it's relevant to this discussion.  We are analyzing the two players and their overall skill level and value to the program.  Cam Marotta may have had 5 times the work ethic than Allen Iverson.  Again, this has nothing to do with their value and skill level as a member of a basketball team.

Now "attitude" can inspire teammates and be infectious.  But not as much as timely buckets or in Davante's case: his overall vibe and ability to entertain.  The crowd at the BC absolutely loved Davante as did his teammates.  You could  feel the energy in the building when he was carving up dudes down on the block on a regular basis.  So while work ethic and attitude may have applied to Theo, they did not lead to making the players around him better.  Nor did they motivate them or provide more enthusiasm in the crowd unlike Davante.  The fact is being in better condition, having a better work ethic, and supposedly a better attitude are totally irrelevant when comparing these players.

You are making a boatload of unprovable assumptions here.

[tower912]

He is also saying that whatever he values less is irrelevant to the argument.

[Lennys Tap]

Exactly. Davante was a fine role player on some good teams. As soon as he had to be the man, the team turned terrible. He was never suited to be more than that good role player. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend he's more than what he was.

I promise this will be my last word (I can hear the applause, lol) but your post is disingenuous at best. As 2nd team All Big East and MU's MVP he was only able to lead Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and company to a 17-15, 9-9 season that you call "terrible". Meanwhile, Theo wasn't close to being "the man" on a worse team. Because he's not good enough.

[brewcity77]

I promise this will be my last word (I can hear the applause, lol) but your post is disingenuous at best. As 2nd team All Big East and MU's MVP he was only able to lead Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and company to a 17-15, 9-9 season that you call "terrible". Meanwhile, Theo wasn't close to being "the man" on a worse team. Because he's not good enough.

Just like Davante wasn't good enough. He only played at one end and when he was the man, it was Buzz's worst offense here. This doesn't make my post disingenuous, it supports it.

[Goose]

I was far from a Devante fan (probably more critical of him than Theo John) and IMO there is no discussion on who was a better basketball player, importance to a team and how that translated to team success. Mind you, I could not stand watching Devante play for the most part and truly unbiased opinion. I would not have recruited or played either guy if I was the coach.

[JTJ3]

If I'm coaching a good team, with good guards, give me theo to complement them all day over davante.

[CTWarrior]

If I'm coaching a good team, with good guards, give me theo to complement them all day over davante.

We had good guards throughout his time here.  How exactly did Theo complement them?

[The Sultan]

We had good guards throughout his time here.  How exactly did Theo complement them?

I think pretty well up until the quality of the guards fell off. Would the last few years have been better with Davante i stars of Theo?  Doubtful.

[CTWarrior]

I think pretty well up until the quality of the guards fell off. Would the last few years have been better with Davante i stars of Theo?  Doubtful.

No, I mean how did he complement them?  Did he make it easier for them to get open looks by demanding a double team when he got the ball down low?  Was he a good passer in the half court?  Did he get offensive rebounds to prolong possessions?  Did he set good screens?  Did he grab defensive rebounds and start the fast break with a good outlet pass? 

To me those are the things that complement goods guards, and he pretty much did not do any of them, except maybe set good screens, though he was usually good for an illegal screen at least once a game.

Basically, with bad defensive guards he would block a couple shots a game and provide a deterrent, which is complementary, but he was out of position a lot on defense and on the boards by chasing blocks.  I'm just not seeing it, I guess.

[Uncle Rico]

What's most important is, Davante and Theo both graduated from Marquette.  The purpose of athletic scholarships is for the student athlete to get an education first and foremost.  The on the court results are irrelevant to the stated purpose of education first

[Galway Eagle]

What's most important is, Davante and Theo both graduated from Marquette.  The purpose of athletic scholarships is for the student athlete to get an education first and foremost.  The on the court results are irrelevant to the stated purpose of education first

Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.

[NCMUFan]

Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.

And many people will root for Theo as they also did for Duane.

[CTWarrior]

Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.

I did not love Theo's game and just critiqued it a bit in this thread, but the guy gave his all to us for four years and that is all you can ask.  He has more than earned the right to go play wherever he wants, and I hope he is great and has a fulfilling and prosperous career in basketball if that is what he wants.  I hope he really enjoys his year at Duke and in the end is happy that he went. 

[MuggsyB]

He is also saying that whatever he values less is irrelevant to the argument.

Tower we will just agree to disagree.  At the end if the day this game is about "buckets".

Now and in time to be,
Wherever MU Blue/Gold is worn.

[Goose]

I hope Theo knocks out of the park at Duke. I see no reason to root against him or have any negative thoughts about his future. In some regard his going to Duke makes me feel a bit better about Wojo. He did the kid right by promoting him to Duke. Not so sure it will be resume builder for him, but a very classy move IMO.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tower we will just agree to disagree.  At the end if the day this game is about "buckets".

Yep. Both getting them and preventing the other team from getting them

[MU82]

This article about the comings and goings at Duke show that K's crumbling program must have been desperate to have to stoop so low as to bring in Theo.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article250877604.html?

I mean, K only has 3 of the top 20 recruits in the country coming in, including the kid who is expected to be the No. 1 choice in the 2022 NBA Draft, as well as several other talented players.

[cheebs09]

This article about the comings and goings at Duke show that K's crumbling program must have been desperate to have to stoop so low as to bring in Theo.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article250877604.html?

I mean, K only has 3 of the top 20 recruits in the country coming in, including the kid who is expected to be the No. 1 choice in the 2022 NBA Draft, as well as several other talented players.

I can definitely see the match of Theo to Duke. If he's only needed 10-15 minutes a game, he could be very valuable. He won't be needed for offense. They may be able to channel his shot blocking into better positional defense.

I think of Theo similar to Derrick Wilson. He is a valuable player, but was asked to do too much at MU. Part of it is I think his injuries probably made it difficult to ever take that next step as a player.

[Badgerhater]

I thank Theo for his time at Marquette and congratulate him on his degree.  He was more consequential to the program then Henry Ellenson, who we should all forget. 

[The Sultan]

I can definitely see the match of Theo to Duke. If he's only needed 10-15 minutes a game, he could be very valuable. He won't be needed for offense. They may be able to channel his shot blocking into better positional defense.

I think of Theo similar to Derrick Wilson. He is a valuable player, but was asked to do too much at MU. Part of it is I think his injuries probably made it difficult to ever take that next step as a player.

I bet he gets more than 10-15 per game.

[Nukem2]

I bet he gets more than 10-15 per game.

Wonder how his knee is doing?  That could impact his minutes. 

[Lennys Tap]

I did not love Theo's game and just critiqued it a bit in this thread, but the guy gave his all to us for four years and that is all you can ask.  He has more than earned the right to go play wherever he wants, and I hope he is great and has a fulfilling and prosperous career in basketball if that is what he wants.  I hope he really enjoys his year at Duke and in the end is happy that he went.

100% agree. I'm not a fan of Theo's game either - I think the Derrick Wilson parallel that Cheebs suggests is a good one. However, I wish him nothing but the best. I hope he thrives at Duke and beyond. Unlike some Scoopers, I don't view players who decide to transfer as traitors.