MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on January 02, 2020, 08:17:56 AM
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Has his recruiting class guaranteed him at least another season thus far (i basically believe this)
But if we finish say bottom 3 in the big east ( which i also believe will be true) is this enough to finally move on from this failed hiring?
And by all measures it was a failed hiring. The homers should now see this, but certainly by the end of big east play they will.
Shame Markus Howards senior year will be his worst team performance yet. Might just guarantee he doesn't make an nba roster, that I will blame on Wojo and his inept coaching.
Buckle up boys and girls its gonnna be a face palm type of conference play this year.
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Won't get chit canned, but could leave for perceived greener pastures, hey?
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Little sisters of the poor would be a good location for him, less pressure aina?
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Won't get chit canned, but could leave for perceived greener pastures, hey?
I'm hoping Wake Forest opens up.
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Has his recruiting class guaranteed him at least another season thus far (i basically believe this)
But if we finish say bottom 3 in the big east ( which i also believe will be true) is this enough to finally move on from this failed hiring?
And by all measures it was a failed hiring. The homers should now see this, but certainly by the end of big east play they will.
Shame Markus Howards senior year will be his worst team performance yet. Might just guarantee he doesn't make an nba roster, that I will blame on Wojo and his inept coaching.
Buckle up boys and girls its gonnna be a face palm type of conference play this year.
So after a win this Saturday I assume you’ll be MIA as usual?
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Asked and answered by Scoopers. 90% said missing the NCAA would have them do it. I doubt that happens, but you never know.
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IMO this is the least entertaining / exciting team to watch in many years, which is pretty sad considering we have one of the greatest scorers in college basketball on our roster.
I know it may come to a surprise but I do not wish for marquette to fail but I certainly hope this university has enough stones to can wojo after we miss the NCAA's this season, anything short of a tourney bid should be grounds for dismissal
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Watch what you wish for, especially after one Big East game and 17 to go.
Wojo has nothing to do with Markus's NBA prospect or draft position. Markus tested the waters last year and in all likelihood was told he was not guarenteed to be drafted in first round and hinted he should return. Not one mock draft has him going in the first round and that is all on his height. The NBA is not meant to be for 5 feet 10 players. Markus will be a G-League guy or a European League player.
MU loses Markus, Anim, Morrow and Johnson next year, even though the latter two have contributed basically nothing but extra fouls and turnovers. If Koby keeps up his offensive deficiencies, he too may be benched. The 2020 recruiting class may save Wojo, but if they do win like 4 to 5 games, then the pressure would be on. If he leaves for any reason, then without the above mentioned players, along with the fact and probability that one or more of the 2020 recruits Garcia, King and Oso would move on, then it would be a dumpster fire. Would Torrence, or Dexter move on also after a Wojo departure? All these factors would come into play and a major rebuild, start over will begin.
MU has played one, one Big East game, so revisit halfway thru the season.
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Watch what you wish for, especially after one Big East game and 17 to go.
Wojo has nothing to do with Markus's NBA prospect or draft position. Markus tested the waters last year and in all likelihood was told he was not guarenteed to be drafted in first round and hinted he should return. Not one mock draft has him going in the first round and that is all on his height. The NBA is not meant to be for 5 feet 10 players. Markus will be a G-League guy or a European League player.
MU loses Markus, Anim, Morrow and Johnson next year, even though the latter two have contributed basically nothing but extra fouls and turnovers. If Koby keeps up his offensive deficiencies, he too may be benched. The 2020 recruiting class may save Wojo, but if they do win like 4 to 5 games, then the pressure would be on. If he leaves for any reason, then without the above mentioned players, along with the fact and probability that one or more of the 2020 recruits Garcia, King and Oso would move on, then it would be a dumpster fire. Would Torrence, or Dexter move on also after a Wojo departure? All these factors would come into play and a major rebuild, start over will begin.
MU has played one, one Big East game, so revisit halfway thru the season.
I'm fine with a rebuild if I felt we were going in a positive direction or the team punched above its weight now and again. I feel like this program now is spinning its wheels, regressing in the year it should have been peaking, and have no faith that Wojo can get us over the hump.
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I believe ZERO chance he gets canned. He may leave for another program, but it will not be due to pressure by MU or the fan base. IMO, there are still enough homers out there that get excited over a possible team that zero pressure is on Wojo to succeed at higher level. This board is made up of fans that care more than most and "next year" or throwing computer numbers is enough to keep most relatively happy.
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Won't get chit canned, but could leave for perceived greener pastures, hey?
Dat wood bee nice.
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I'm fine with a rebuild if I felt we were going in a positive direction or the team punched above its weight now and again. I feel like this program now is spinning its wheels, regressing in the year it should have been peaking, and have no faith that Wojo can get us over the hump.
You have to build something in the first place in order to rebuild. I don’t think Wojo has ever gotten over the hump. 5 plus years not one tournament win isn’t really building anything.
I am excited for the incoming recruiting class, but woj has had good recruiting classes before and has not done much with them. I am not sure what to think. I want the team to succeed, but I am not really seeing it. The best scenario for me would be to keep all the incoming recruits and have Wojo move on to another job.
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If Wojo goes, our best recruiting class since Jerel, Wes and James goes. I’ll take another year.
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If Wojo goes, our best recruiting class since Jerel, Wes and James goes. I’ll take another year.
Yup, but someone people want to burn it to the ground. Oh well, it worked great for Tennessee football, Arkansas football, etc, etc, etc
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You have to build something in the first place in order to rebuild. I don’t think Wojo has ever gotten over the hump. 5 plus years not one tournament win isn’t really building anything.
I am excited for the incoming recruiting class, but woj has had good recruiting classes before and has not done much with them. I am not sure what to think. I want the team to succeed, but I am not really seeing it. The best scenario for me would be to keep all the incoming recruits and have Wojo move on to another job.
Spot on. I don't think it requires many years to rebuild a program, especially when the program is in a big-time league, and has big-time expenditures and facilities. Outside of the month of January 2019, the program has been pretty much a dud since Wojo got here. Losing recruits is the only reason to keep him.
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We have been in a rebuild for quite some time. IMO, the rebuild has not been very impressive.
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does anyone know the legality of asking recruits "if we fire wojo would you leave the program" is there some kind of violation in that method?
I think best case scenario for me is we fire wojo (marquette program will appear weaker if we let him make the move vs if we make the move) and we maintain all of our recruiting class but this is wishful thinking, marquette cant hang on to recruits as it is.
Almost makes me wish we were back in the juco transfer mentality, hey we got several nba players out of that philosophy!
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Won't get chit canned, but could leave for perceived greener pastures, hey?
If Wojo can somehow get to the 20 win mark and a tourney invite , he will be among the top available candidates in this years coaching carousel. Hopefully , we can pawn him off on a desperate college president somewhere .
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Yup, but someone people want to burn it to the ground. Oh well, it worked great for Tennessee football, Arkansas football, etc, etc, etc
So, what's your projection for Year 7 of this masterpiece rebuild? Isn't it a guards game? We lose Markus and Sacar. You excited about next year?
If Wojo has proven one thing, it is that he's not an alchemist capable of extracting more from a roster, nor has he shown he is a good in-game coach.
If Wojo goes, our best recruiting class since Jerel, Wes and James goes. I’ll take another year.
We've had other good recruiting classes under Wojo, yet still no breakthroughs. At this point, what does the program have to lose by giving Stan Johnson a shot? He's far more compelling/charismatic than Wojo. Paul Chryst and Bill Belicheck aside, charisma usually is a helpful attribute in a head coach.
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Short of some catastrophe like losing 80+% of their remaining games without a Marcus injury, I am hard pressed to see any on-court record that results in a new coach.
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I would not at all be surprised if we lose more than 50 percent of the remaining games.
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Spot on. I don't think it requires many years to rebuild a program, especially when the program is in a big-time league, and has big-time expenditures and facilities. Outside of the month of January 2019, the program has been pretty much a dud since Wojo got here. Losing recruits is the only reason to keep him.
Coaches at 4 programs in the current KenPom Top 10 have been at their program less than 4 years:
#3 OSU - Year 3
#4 Louisville - Year 2
#7 Butler - Year 3
#9 Dayton - Year 3
Then you have the these programs with coaches at the helm less time than Wojo:
#13 Michigan (Year 1)
#21 San Diego State (3rd year coach)
#26 Houston (Year 6 like Wojo) They were ranked 18th and 12th to finish each of two prior years.
#27 Xavier (Year 2)
#28 Wisconsin (Year 5)
#29 Memphis (year 1)
#31 Arkansas (year 1)
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Coaches at 4 programs in the current KenPom Top 10 have been at their program less than 4 years:
#3 OSU - Year 3
#4 Louisville - Year 2
#7 Butler - Year 3
#9 Dayton - Year 3
Then you have the these programs with coaches at the helm less time than Wojo:
#13 Michigan (Year 1)
#21 San Diego State (3rd year coach)
#26 Houston (Year 6 like Wojo) They were ranked 18th and 12th to finish each of two prior years.
#27 Xavier (Year 2)
#28 Wisconsin (Year 5)
#29 Memphis (year 1)
#31 Arkansas (year 1)
Not saying there's issues with your whole point but X and WI both were long time assistants at their programs. So there's continuity (also you'd be flipping out if we had UW's record right now).
Then there's Memphis which was cheating and Houston who hired someone who's known for cheating.
Again you make a good point that there's better coaches out there getting it done faster but not all your examples are good ones
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I really like stan and would rather have him as a coach over wojo (i really think he is the strong recruiter anyways) but not sure if it comes down to firing wojo if we could take a partial reboot, might have to just blow up the whole thing but those recruits we have on the docket might just force the program to keep stan in the hopes that garcia and co stay.
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I really like stan and would rather have him as a coach over wojo (i really think he is the strong recruiter anyways) but not sure if it comes down to firing wojo if we could take a partial reboot, might have to just blow up the whole thing but those recruits we have on the docket might just force the program to keep stan in the hopes that garcia and co stay.
This sounds like the Freddie Kitchens hire logic.
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I would not at all be surprised if we lose more than 50 percent of the remaining games.
Missing the NCAA would spare Wojo the shame of another first round blowout to a mid-major.
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So, what's your projection for Year 7 of this masterpiece rebuild? Isn't it a guards game? We lose Markus and Sacar. You excited about next year?
If Wojo has proven one thing, it is that he's not an alchemist capable of extracting more from a roster, nor has he shown he is a good in-game coach.
We've had other good recruiting classes under Wojo, yet still no breakthroughs. At this point, what does the program have to lose by giving Stan Johnson a shot? He's far more compelling/charismatic than Wojo. Paul Chryst and Bill Belicheck aside, charisma usually is a helpful attribute in a head coach.
FWIW, I have noticed a few times this season that when a player messes up, throws a fit (Koby), etc., it is Stan who gets in their face, shoving the finger into the player's chest, etc.
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It won't happen this year, but if/and when it's time to cut bait on Wojo I would like to see it mid-season and give Stan the interim for the remainder. I don't know if it really worked for UW, but you could at least see his chops and maybe have the option of only a semi-rebuild.
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It will take a scandal.
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It will take a scandal.
Like how missing the NCAA tournament with a first-team all American would be scandalous?
(I don't think that will happen though)
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Watch what you wish for, especially after one Big East game and 17 to go.
Wojo has nothing to do with Markus's NBA prospect or draft position. Markus tested the waters last year and in all likelihood was told he was not guarenteed to be drafted in first round and hinted he should return. Not one mock draft has him going in the first round and that is all on his height. The NBA is not meant to be for 5 feet 10 players. Markus will be a G-League guy or a European League player.
MU loses Markus, Anim, Morrow and Johnson next year, even though the latter two have contributed basically nothing but extra fouls and turnovers. If Koby keeps up his offensive deficiencies, he too may be benched. The 2020 recruiting class may save Wojo, but if they do win like 4 to 5 games, then the pressure would be on. If he leaves for any reason, then without the above mentioned players, along with the fact and probability that one or more of the 2020 recruits Garcia, King and Oso would move on, then it would be a dumpster fire. Would Torrence, or Dexter move on also after a Wojo departure? All these factors would come into play and a major rebuild, start over will begin.
MU has played one, one Big East game, so revisit halfway thru the season.
Fear of losing recruits should not be a reason to not fire an incompetent coach.
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Like how missing the NCAA tournament with a first-team all American would be scandalous?
(I don't think that will happen though)
They would have to miss the tournament first. Do people not realize that we would probably be an 8 seed if the season ended today? We will be in the tournament.
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Fear of losing recruits should not be a reason to not fire an incompetent coach.
Right. Because bringing in those recruits and ultimately falling short of expectations is worse. I mean, look how great it worked out with Henry and Joey!!!
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Right. Because bringing in those recruits and ultimately falling short of expectations is worse. I mean, look how great it worked out with Henry and Joey!!!
I'm confused on how this statement comes to the defense of wojo at all.
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Coaches at 4 programs in the current KenPom Top 10 have been at their program less than 4 years:
#3 OSU - Year 3
#4 Louisville - Year 2
#7 Butler - Year 3
#9 Dayton - Year 3
Then you have the these programs with coaches at the helm less time than Wojo:
#13 Michigan (Year 1)
#21 San Diego State (3rd year coach)
#26 Houston (Year 6 like Wojo) They were ranked 18th and 12th to finish each of two prior years.
#27 Xavier (Year 2)
#28 Wisconsin (Year 5)
#29 Memphis (year 1)
#31 Arkansas (year 1)
All true. Lots of missing info but the information is correct. Many programs that are doing much worse, as well.
The last 4 years we've finished 32/33/53 and are 32 this year. That's a solid program.
The same caliber of team with a few March wins and people would largely be satisfied.
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Not saying there's issues with your whole point but X and WI both were long time assistants at their programs. So there's continuity (also you'd be flipping out if we had UW's record right now).
Then there's Memphis which was cheating and Houston who hired someone who's known for cheating.
Again you make a good point that there's better coaches out there getting it done faster but not all your examples are good ones
Sure...and that's why you give Stan a shot. Unfortunately Stan has sat next to a guy who is clearly not a great coach - as Gard did with Ryan and Steele did with Mack. But, elevating Stan would absolutely keep the recruiting class in place. Give him a 2-3 contract and see what he can do. No real harm.
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Scenarios:
* MU wins 2, reaches S16. Wojo is new hot coach, 90% chance hired away to reset his career clock.
* MU wins 1. Wojo is new warm coach, 30% hired away to reset his clock.
So if you want Wojo to remain at MU, hope for a nice bottom half BE finish, of which the odds are 50/50.
#Arbys
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I'm confused on how this statement comes to the defense of wojo at all.
It doesn't. My statement was meant to affirm yours.
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Fear of losing recruits should not be a reason to not fire an incompetent coach.
Bingo. The biggest thing Wojo has had going for him since day has always been the prospects of what might happen in the next year or two. At some point, he needs to deliver.
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Bingo. The biggest thing Wojo has had going for him since day has always been the prospects of what might happen in the next year or two. At some point, he needs to deliver.
Sure. And assuming a tournament berth this year he's delivered decent results 3 out of the past 4 years. Not great, but acceptable.
Last night was infuriating and predictable but we don't have to recycle every year old argument after every loss. Rip on the game plan last night? All for it. But let's wait until the end of the year to determine if we actually suck or if this was just 3% of a full data set.
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Sure...and that's why you give Stan a shot. Unfortunately Stan has sat next to a guy who is clearly not a great coach - as Gard did with Ryan and Steele did with Mack. But, elevating Stan would absolutely keep the recruiting class in place. Give him a 2-3 contract and see what he can do. No real harm.
Isn’t Stan part of the current staff, game planning and strategy, scouting and recruiting?
The harm is pushing a program into uncharted waters for 2 to 3 years by promoting someone from a staff that you already believe is underperforming.
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Sure. And assuming a tournament berth this year he's delivered decent results 3 out of the past 4 years. Not great, but acceptable.
Last night was infuriating and predictable but we don't have to recycle every year old argument after every loss. Rip on the game plan last night? All for it. But let's wait until the end of the year to determine if we actually suck or if this was just 3% of a full data set.
Yeah, let's wait another year to see if Wojo's team will compete. 5 years of data isn't enough to get an accurate prediction because there's that chance he will one day magically show up as Coach K. If you can't see the fact that after 5 years Wojo cannot coach defense then the problem lies within your synapses.
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Yeah, let's wait another year to see if Wojo's team will compete. 5 years of data isn't enough to get an accurate prediction because there's that chance he will one day magically show up as Coach K. If you can't see the fact that after 5 years Wojo cannot coach defense then the problem lies within your synapses.
Why don't you let this season play out?
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Yeah, let's wait another year to see if Wojo's team will compete. 5 years of data isn't enough to get an accurate prediction because there's that chance he will one day magically show up as Coach K. If you can't see the fact that after 5 years Wojo cannot coach defense then the problem lies within your synapses.
I didn't say anything about another year. Read better before you respond.
We finished top 50 in defense last year and are top 50 in defense this year. 2016-2018 were bad defensive teams.
For comparison, our defensive rankings this year and last are both better than all but one of Buzz's teams (2012).
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Yeah, let's wait another year to see if Wojo's team will compete. 5 years of data isn't enough to get an accurate prediction because there's that chance he will one day magically show up as Coach K. If you can't see the fact that after 5 years Wojo cannot coach defense then the problem lies within your synapses.
I think most MU fans are ok if the process is a slow build assuming there is a good payoff. That’s why you see the Wright, Coach K, and other examples of coaches that took some time to get going.
To me, the worry is this was supposed to be the year we were building to. However, it looks like we are getting more of the same. Solid team with some flaws that is trending towards a first round exit. Then next year we get the “we’re a young team” press conferences. Hopefully we turn it around and I’m just being glass half empty right now.
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I didn't say anything about another year. Read better before you respond.
We finished top 50 in defense last year and are top 50 in defense this year. 2016-2018 were bad defensive teams.
For comparison, our defensive rankings this year and last are both better than all but one of Buzz's teams (2012).
Buzz's teams would have destroyed any of Wojo's. Any of Wojo's teams would have been lucky to shoot 35% vs. any of Buzz's sweet 16/Elite 8 teams. Not to mention your comparison is severely flawed. Buzz's teams played a tougher schedule in the Big (Big East) Louisville, Pitt, Notre Dame, Syracuse, UConn
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It doesn't. My statement was meant to affirm yours.
Gotcha. I read it in the wrong tone
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I didn't say anything about another year. Read better before you respond.
We finished top 50 in defense last year and are top 50 in defense this year. 2016-2018 were bad defensive teams.
For comparison, our defensive rankings this year and last are both better than all but one of Buzz's teams (2012).
Those comparisons are dumb. Buzz played a lot more competitive teams then wojo.
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Buzz's teams would have destroyed any of Wojo's. Any of Wojo's teams would have been lucky to shoot 35% vs. any of Buzz's sweet 16/Elite 8 teams. Not to mention your comparison is severely flawed. Buzz's teams played a tougher schedule in the Big (Big East) Louisville, Pitt, Notre Dame, Syracuse, UConn
Buzz's last team played in the same Big East that Wojo's team plays in. In fact, that was the second worst Big East conference with a +12.26 rating, good for 5th overall that year. How did Buzz do again?
Wojo's first year in the Big East the conference had a +14.24 rating, good for 2nd best conference
2nd year, +13.94 and the third best conference
3rd year, +14.54 and the third best conference
4th year, +15.33 and the third best conference
5th year, + 10.46 and the fifth best conference
6th year, +15.49 and the 3rd best conference
We know Buzz only coached in one year of this version of the Big East...and he did not fare well....but I get it, he wasn't really trying. :o
What others don't realize is that the version of the Big East that Buzz and Crean coached in had some insanely good teams, they also had some really bad teams at times....this current version of the Big East top to bottom had outranked some of those older versions of the Big East. We tend to remember UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, etc and just totally forget Rutgers, South Florida, etc.
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Those comparisons are dumb. Buzz played a lot more competitive teams then wojo.
I'm not even sure what this means but the stats I used are adjusted for competition and tempo, so....
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I'm not even sure what this means but the stats I used are adjusted for competition and tempo, so....
The numbers are severely flawed...... there's no comparison between any of buzz's tourney teams and the crap that Wojo spews out on to the floor right now. The professional level of talent on Buzz's teams dwarfs Wojo's. The comparison holds no merit whatsoever.
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I say it all the time, watch the game and factor that into your analysis. Stats are great but do not tell the whole story. Buzz's team were far superior defensively than any team Wojo has thrown on the court. I will trust the eye test more times than not.
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The numbers are severely flawed...... there's no comparison between any of buzz's tourney teams and the crap that Wojo spews out on to the floor right now. The professional level of talent on Buzz's teams dwarfs Wojo's. The comparison holds no merit whatsoever.
Got it. No reason trying to reason with someone who disagrees with any stat that doesn't validate their opinion.
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I really like stan and would rather have him as a coach over wojo (i really think he is the strong recruiter anyways) but not sure if it comes down to firing wojo if we could take a partial reboot, might have to just blow up the whole thing but those recruits we have on the docket might just force the program to keep stan in the hopes that garcia and co stay.
COULDNT AGREE MORE
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Isn’t Stan part of the current staff, game planning and strategy, scouting and recruiting?
The harm is pushing a program into uncharted waters for 2 to 3 years by promoting someone from a staff that you already believe is underperforming.
Stan does not get to make playing time decisions, decide rotations, etc. Personally, I feel we'd be a trainwreck of a program if Stan weren't on this staff - he's our ace recruiter, best rapport with players, helped us avoid a bigger mutiny this past off-season.
There have been many assistant coaches who have gone on to exceed their former boss.
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Got it. No reason trying to reason with someone who disagrees with any stat that doesn't validate their opinion.
You clearly haven't factored in talent level. The amount of people Buzz has put into the NBA/Europe vs. Wojo is overwhelming. That alone crushes your numeric theory.
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You clearly haven't factored in talent level. The amount of people Buzz has put into the NBA/Europe vs. Wojo is overwhelming. That alone crushes your numeric theory.
We don't disagree on talent level. Buzz's teams were superior when it comes to pro talent, no question. We disagree whether there is a scheme and the overall quality of defense.
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We don't disagree on talent level. Buzz's teams were superior when it comes to pro talent, no question. We disagree whether there is a scheme and the overall quality of defense.
Last night aside, I think the general quality of MUs defense is good and definitely good enough to have a top-25 team. We couldn't say the same thing a few years ago (which actually resembled last night).
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What's the system then? Stats don't account for rotating defensively, helping out, blocking passing lanes, boxing out, etc. of which MU doesn't consistently perform. Not to mention, how many of MU's losses were cut shorter by garbage time 3 pointers made? Let's be honest, Wojo's high scoring offensive approach hasn't worked. If you can't turn around a program in 3 -4 years, you're not MU material. It's time to go when your incoming recruiting class is your selling point and you lost 2 of your best players to the transfer pool.
Watch LaSalle play defense and there's a clear difference between the 2 teams. Furthermore, one coach is in year 2 while the other is in year 6. That says a lot right there.
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Wojo ain't going to get canned by the admin unless he goes about 3 and 14 rest of year, and then only maybe. The guy can recruit but cannot coach, that is patently obvious. He is in a holding pattern for Duke, but he shouldn't hold his breath for that. Doubt if he even goes 9-9 in BEast. He cant coach, and the talent is not capable. There will be more blow outs like last night, but also a game or 2 that he squeaks out against a team not expected. Hell, would not be surprised if DePaul sweeps Wojo ass this year. But we should realistically expect the Homer's to continue to rationalize that Wojo needs another 3 or 4 years before the jury wakes up.
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Wojo ain't going to get canned by the admin unless he goes about 3 and 14 rest of year, and then only maybe. The guy can recruit but cannot coach, that is patently obvious. He is in a holding pattern for Duke, but he shouldn't hold his breath for that. Doubt if he even goes 9-9 in BEast. He cant coach, and the talent is not capable. There will be more blow outs like last night, but also a game or 2 that he squeaks out against a team not expected. Hell, would not be surprised if DePaul sweeps Wojo ass this year. But we should realistically expect the Homer's to continue to rationalize that Wojo needs another 3 or 4 years before the jury wakes up.
Finally, someone with the ability to see reality. Can Wojo recruit though? His guys have been mostly flops from the get-go. Not to mention, the guys he recruit don't fit a system or a mold specifically. Recruiting is all over the map which proves that Wojo doesn't have much of a vision or idea of how to put a team together. Throw in lack of player development and you have a 0 wins in the 68 field of NCAA teams - literally the easiest field to get into in its history - especially with the one and done athletes.
Wojo will go down as the MU Coach who let DePaul become a better program for the first time in 30 years.
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Stan does not get to make playing time decisions, decide rotations, etc. Personally, I feel we'd be a trainwreck of a program if Stan weren't on this staff - he's our ace recruiter, best rapport with players, helped us avoid a bigger mutiny this past off-season.
There have been many assistant coaches who have gone on to exceed their former boss.
How are you aware of what Stan Johnson or other coaches get to decide what? Typically how it works is the asst coaches will work with the head coach on who is doing best in practice, who is ideal for certain matchups, etc. You make it sound like that isn't the case. Do you have anything other than a personal opinion to suggest the HC is out on an island making these decisions?
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I'd say it would take about something like 4-14 in the BE for a for-sure firing. Tourney keeps him around, even if they're not competitive in a tourney game or worse (NIT, no tourney) for the 6th straight year. Something in the 5-13 to 7-11 range would probably require something bad to happen off the court. That all being said, hope they turn it around and get over the hump this year.
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I believe ZERO chance he gets canned. He may leave for another program, but it will not be due to pressure by MU or the fan base. IMO, there are still enough homers out there that get excited over a possible team that zero pressure is on Wojo to succeed at higher level. This board is made up of fans that care more than most and "next year" or throwing computer numbers is enough to keep most relatively happy.
Here's why I agree with you:
1) It's about the revenue. As long as the attendance is strong and the TV revenue remains and the Big East doesn't cut us, we're not changing.
2) As long as there are no NCAA violations or character issues, Wojo is OK.
3) Finally, we probably are a .500 team in the Big East and will have a winning record.
I also think the administration doesn't want an NCAA blue blood any more. The crap they'll take from the basketball program, from the professors and the academic community at MU and, possibly, the community if MU is a long-term blue blood likely is more than they want to deal with. Many of us today remember the McGuire years as seashells and balloons but there was an enormous amount of consternation, ranging from battles with the NCAA, feuds with Adolph Rupp, salary disputes, contract negotiations et al.
Realistically, I suspect they've made the same evaluation the Tribune Company did with the Cubs. The cost of going from where we are to being a blue blood is not outweighed by the revenue and prestige it will generate. Better to be mediocre and optimize net income that to be a Blue Blood and face the above-noted challenges.
Under this scenario, Wojo retires from Marquette in about 2045.
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Y'all are crazy if you think MU doesn't aspire to be elite in college basketball
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Y'all are crazy if you think MU doesn't aspire to be elite in college basketball
Yep. They will not cut certain corners to get there, but MU clearly wants to be elite.
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TAMU
They might want to be elite, but have little clue on to make that happen. Wanting to be something and doing it are two different things. The closet MU was to elite, post Al, was the Buzz era. They have fallen woefully short since his departure. IMO, I would rather think they are OK with current status than think they are trying to be elite. They resemble a bubble team slowly going in reverse at the moment.
You and I have had our debates/disagreements over the years, but I do respect much of what you say. One question, what makes you so confident that they want to be elite? The on court product has delivered little in over a half decade.
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I do not see Wojo getting canned any time soon. Woj has Broeker in his back pocket.
but with that said, we need to talk about the facts. 107–72 (.598) overall and 43–48 (.473) in conference with 0 tourney wins in 6.5 years is baffling. Woj has signed multiple top 25 classes (247), and in total inked 10 top 100 prospects (247) to date. Something just is not translating to the court.
as a top 10 spending CBB program in the country - you would expect more results this far into the wojo era
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TAMU
They might want to be elite, but have little clue on to make that happen. Wanting to be something and doing it are two different things. The closet MU was to elite, post Al, was the Buzz era. They have fallen woefully short since his departure. IMO, I would rather think they are OK with current status than think they are trying to be elite. They resemble a bubble team slowly going in reverse at the moment.
You and I have had our debates/disagreements over the years, but I do respect much of what you say. One question, what makes you so confident that they want to be elite? The on court product has delivered little in over a half decade.
Goose,
I tend to agree with you but I am not sure the University leadership is clueless on this issue. MU puts plenty of resources into the program. At the end of the day, every successful program is coach driven. This it the area where MU has struggled. We can all debate the reason for that. I honestly do not know. My suspicion is it is very difficult for MU to attract and retain the type of coach some fans would like to see at MU. It is not for lack of effort. I think that is part of the reason why many of the head coaches in the post Al era has been assistants taking their first head coaching gig. We struggle attracting seasoned Head coaches. Again, we can all debate the "why", but it unfortunately the situation the program finds itself in.
I certainly hope Wojo succeeds and decides Marquette and Milwaukee will be his destination for a long time. History may suggest otherwise.
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WarriorPride
IMO, what makes his record worse is the number of wins against teams that have no chance to beat us. He has to have 40-50% of his wins against a cupcake NC schedule.
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79Warrior
I believe that MU basketball has been such a cash cow for nearly 50 years that is taken as a given by the school. The world is changing and the number of fans that remember the glory days are fading quickly. IMO, if MU wants to be elite, they need to make a full court press and make it happen.
For those worried about losing current players or recruits if a change is made, that is part of big time sports. If Wojo is not the guy, which I now firmly believe, than MU needs to move on, regardless of incoming recruiting class. For the record, the incoming class is a nice one, especially if it was pairing up with a great core of returning players, but it is not the Fab Five.
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I do not see Wojo getting canned any time soon. Woj has Broeker in his back pocket.
but with that said, we need to talk about the facts. 107–72 (.598) overall and 43–48 (.473) in conference with 0 tourney wins in 6.5 years is baffling. Woj has signed multiple top 25 classes (247), and in total inked 10 top 100 prospects (247) to date. Something just is not translating to the court.
as a top 10 spending CBB program in the country - you would expect more results this far into the wojo era
Interesting. Any quick and easy way of getting his record against teams that made the NCAA in that year?
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I think most MU fans are ok if the process is a slow build assuming there is a good payoff. That’s why you see the Wright, Coach K, and other examples of coaches that took some time to get going.
To me, the worry is this was supposed to be the year we were building to. However, it looks like we are getting more of the same. Solid team with some flaws that is trending towards a first round exit. Then next year we get the “we’re a young team” press conferences. Hopefully we turn it around and I’m just being glass half empty right now.
Actually it was last year we were to have been building to - the magical power point year 5, that imploded and ended with an epic thud. Who's to blame for that?
Let's look ahead to next year, Year 7, we lose Markus and Sacar. We desperately need to land Karim Mane, as we need a guard who can be a force. I like Symir and Greg, yet neither are the type that can go get you a bucket if needed. In fact, I don't see any player on next year's roster that you can just give the ball to and say - get us a bucket. Maybe Dawson?
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Y'all are crazy if you think MU doesn't aspire to be elite in college basketball
Yup, but I keep reading here that the university isn't committed. Uhm, ok.
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79Warrior
I believe that MU basketball has been such a cash cow for nearly 50 years that is taken as a given by the school. The world is changing and the number of fans that remember the glory days are fading quickly. IMO, if MU wants to be elite, they need to make a full court press and make it happen.
For those worried about losing current players or recruits if a change is made, that is part of big time sports. If Wojo is not the guy, which I now firmly believe, than MU needs to move on, regardless of incoming recruiting class. For the record, the incoming class is a nice one, especially if it was pairing up with a great core of returning players, but it is not the Fab Five.
Honest question Goose because I know your heart is always in the right place.
It sounds to me like you are saying spend $10M a year on a coach or something so ridiculous and so above market to get a sure-fire, slam dunk, cannot miss coach to MU....otherwise, I'm having trouble following what you are saying. I take it as just another roll of the dice which is what it always is with a new coach, especially at MU. There's a reason why we get top assistants to take this job and not established, big-name coaches. Whether it is the weather, the geography (talent in the area), conference, etc.
Are you suggesting some "full-court press" (please explain what this means) to go after a Billy Donovan or someone of that stature? If not, who would you identify at a more reasonable rate that is going to achieve what you want it to achieve?
I'm asking with no snark, I'm generally curious what your statement means and how you fulfill it. In my view it is easy to say get a new coach, get a winner, get a ________, quite different to identify who that is AND actually get that person to come to MU.
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I do not see Wojo getting canned any time soon. Woj has Broeker in his back pocket.
but with that said, we need to talk about the facts. 107–72 (.598) overall and 43–48 (.473) in conference with 0 tourney wins in 6.5 years is baffling. Woj has signed multiple top 25 classes (247), and in total inked 10 top 100 prospects (247) to date. Something just is not translating to the court.
as a top 10 spending CBB program in the country - you would expect more results this far into the wojo era
If you take out that first season of trash the numbers jump considerably. Not saying the results are to our expectations but without that season he's 94-51 (.65) and 39-34 (.53) in the last 5yrs. Any program firing a coach with 5yrs of those numbers would come off as the fools in the PR battle.
Again I'm disappointed to, I'm upset we lost the Depaul game in 2018 that likely kept us out of the tournament and that RPI was the factor not NET that let Providence in over us. I'm upset that in 2016 we lost the Belmont and/or Depaul games that at least kept us out of the NIT and out of being on the bubble for a bid. Life is a game of inches and those two years we came up a couple short being the difference between singing his praises and forgetting the first year vs people wanting him gone.
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Interesting. Any quick and easy way of getting his record against teams that made the NCAA in that year?
49 of Wojo 107 total wins have come vs these non-conference teams who missed the tournament (in order):
Tennessee-Martin
NJIT
Georgia Tech (13-19, no tourney)
Tennessee (16-17, no tourney)
ASU (18-16, no tourney)
Alabama A&M
North Dakota
Morgan State
IUPUI
LSU (19-14, no tourney)
ASU (15-17, no tourney)
Jackson State
Grambling
Maine
San Jose State
Chicago State
Presbyterian
Howard
IUPUI
Houston Baptist
Western Carolina
Georgia (19-15, no tourney)
Fresno State
Saint Francis (PA)
Southern Illinois-Edwardsville
Mount St Marys
VCU (18-15, no tourney)
LSU (18-15, no tourney)
Eastern Illinois
Chicago State
Vermont
Wisconsin (15-18, no tourney)
Northern Illinois
American
Maryland Baltimore County
Bethune-Cookman
Presbyterian
Charleston Southern
UTEP
North Dakota
Buffalo
Southern
Loyola (MD)
Robert Morris
Davidson
Jacksonville
Grambling
North Dakota State
Central Arkansas
add in 8 more wins for Wojo vs inept Depaul (until this year) and that grows to 57 of his total 107 wins at Marquette
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Seriously?
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Interesting. Any quick and easy way of getting his record against teams that made the NCAA in that year?
Wisconsin 2015/2016
Vanderbilt 2016/17
Louisville 2018/2019
KSU 2018/2019
Wisconsin 2018/19
^tourney teams Wojo has beat in NC
could add three more to that list this year with potentially Purdue, USC, KSU
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Wisconsin 2015/2016
Vanderbilt 2016/17
Louisville 2018/2019
KSU 2018/2019
Wisconsin 2018/19
^tourney teams Wojo has beat in NC
could add three more to that list this year with potentially Purdue, USC, KSU
I don't think USC (maybe) or KSU are tournament teams. But NDSU has a good shot to be one, as does Davidson.
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I don't think USC (maybe) or KSU are tournament teams. But NDSU has a good shot to be one, as does Davidson.
USC has a solid shot. Little to no chance for KSU.
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Cheeks
I am not passing the buck, but I have always believed the investment in the program should be matched with on court success. If MU has a very large basketball budget, which I believe they do, they need to find a way to have that translate into winning. I have said a million times, if they are happy with current status of program, cut the budget and hire Wardle.
I would hope MU has smart people involved with managing the program and have access to great outside help. That is who should determine what is the best path for the program. But, I can say, just throwing money around is NOT getting the job done. If they want to be elite, and continue the big budget, they should get a savvy group together and figure out how to do it.
I know many on here will jump in and say Rivers is in that group and who is better qualified than Doc. He is extremely qualified, but busy with other tasks and pretty far removed from even his kids playing college ball. They need to get a non biased group and figure out best path moving forward. Currently, their plan is a failure, IMO.
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WarriorPride
IMO, what makes his record worse is the number of wins against teams that have no chance to beat us. He has to have 40-50% of his wins against a cupcake NC schedule.
In the first 5 years, he has 31 cupcake wins out of 97 total (discounting quality buys like Vermont & Buffalo), or 32.0% of his wins. I'm not including this year because we haven't played conference games.
For comparison, Buzz had 40 cupcake wins out of 139 total, or 28.9%. I'm not sure 3.1% is a statistically significant difference. Both about the same.
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49 of Wojo 107 total wins have come vs these non-conference teams who missed the tournament (in order):
Tennessee-Martin
NJIT
Georgia Tech (13-19, no tourney)
Tennessee (16-17, no tourney)
ASU (18-16, no tourney)
Alabama A&M
North Dakota
Morgan State
IUPUI
LSU (19-14, no tourney)
ASU (15-17, no tourney)
Jackson State
Grambling
Maine
San Jose State
Chicago State
Presbyterian
Howard
IUPUI
Houston Baptist
Western Carolina
Georgia (19-15, no tourney)
Fresno State
Saint Francis (PA)
Southern Illinois-Edwardsville
Mount St Marys
VCU (18-15, no tourney)
LSU (18-15, no tourney)
Eastern Illinois
Chicago State
Vermont
Wisconsin (15-18, no tourney)
Northern Illinois
American
Maryland Baltimore County
Bethune-Cookman
Presbyterian
Charleston Southern
UTEP
North Dakota
Buffalo
Southern
Loyola (MD)
Robert Morris
Davidson
Jacksonville
Grambling
North Dakota State
Central Arkansas
add in 8 more wins for Wojo vs inept Depaul (until this year) and that grows to 57 of his total 107 wins at Marquette
Now do this for Buzz, Crean, KO, Majerus.....you're going to get the same results.
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Cheeks
I am not passing the buck, but I have always believed the investment in the program should be matched with on court success. If MU has a very large basketball budget, which I believe they do, they need to find a way to have that translate into winning. I have said a million times, if they are happy with current status of program, cut the budget and hire Wardle.
I would hope MU has smart people involved with managing the program and have access to great outside help. That is who should determine what is the best path for the program. But, I can say, just throwing money around is NOT getting the job done. If they want to be elite, and continue the big budget, they should get a savvy group together and figure out how to do it.
I know many on here will jump in and say Rivers is in that group and who is better qualified than Doc. He is extremely qualified, but busy with other tasks and pretty far removed from even his kids playing college ball. They need to get a non biased group and figure out best path moving forward. Currently, their plan is a failure, IMO.
OK, but this seems very squishy. Who are you going to get that is going to match your desired outcome? And why are they coming to Marquette? In my opinion, lots of wishing in these threads and no tangible, realistic solutions. Just my opinion. I would disagree with your last statement as well. A failure would mean people aren't coming to games, we are failing on the court, no post season appearances, players committing felonies, etc. Very subjective.
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In the first 5 years, he has 31 cupcake wins out of 97 total (discounting quality buys like Vermont & Buffalo), or 32.0% of his wins. I'm not including this year because we haven't played conference games.
For comparison, Buzz had 40 cupcake wins out of 139 total, or 28.9%. I'm not sure 3.1% is a statistically significant difference. Both about the same.
Buzz won 67% of games at MU and won tournament games in 4 of 6 seasons, with two sweet 16's and elite 8
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Buzz won 67% of games at MU and won tournament games in 4 of 6 seasons, with two sweet 16's and elite 8
Yup and did some other things too....he also LEFT MU...he also LEFT New Orleans...he also LEFT Virginia Tech....and that's what he does. Al is dead. Rick is dead. Buzz is a nomad among other things.
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Yup and did some other things too....he also LEFT MU...he also LEFT New Orleans...he also LEFT Virginia Tech....and that's what he does. Al is dead. Rick is dead. Buzz is a nomad among other things.
true. and let the record show i hope Wojo sticks around. he can clearly recruit. just need to start adding some tallies to his tournament record on the W side
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Yup and did some other things too....he also LEFT MU...he also LEFT New Orleans...he also LEFT Virginia Tech....and that's what he does. Al is dead. Rick is dead. Buzz is a nomad among other things.
In all fairness, college coaches leave all the time. He is by no means an anomaly. It is VERY rare to find a D-1 coach who stays at the same place for a long time. Guys like K, Boheim etc are the exception, not the rule.
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OK, but this seems very squishy. Who are you going to get that is going to match your desired outcome? And why are they coming to Marquette? In my opinion, lots of wishing in these threads and no tangible, realistic solutions. Just my opinion. I would disagree with your last statement as well. A failure would mean people aren't coming to games, we are failing on the court, no post season appearances, players committing felonies, etc. Very subjective.
You do realize that this past offseason I believe, I think it was CBS sports asked CURRENT coaches assts etc about the best jobs in the country and MU was in the top 10..Whether you think so or not, PLENTY of Coaches would take the MU job, and yes, I'd wager large sums of money even some sitting power conference coaches would.
Did you forget Rick Barnes was interested when they hired Buzz??
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79Warrior
I believe that MU basketball has been such a cash cow for nearly 50 years that is taken as a given by the school. The world is changing and the number of fans that remember the glory days are fading quickly. IMO, if MU wants to be elite, they need to make a full court press and make it happen.
For those worried about losing current players or recruits if a change is made, that is part of big time sports. If Wojo is not the guy, which I now firmly believe, than MU needs to move on, regardless of incoming recruiting class. For the record, the incoming class is a nice one, especially if it was pairing up with a great core of returning players, but it is not the Fab Five.
Goose,
Agree, basketball is a cash cow. It supports the Athletic department. We are in the best basketball conference possible for Marquette. The University provides tremendous support for the program. I am a product of the great MU basketball years. I have come to realize Al was lightening in a bottle. MU will always have a competitive program and enjoy broad support from the University and fans alike. We will have occasional great runs like Crean and Buzz had.
Everyone on this board wants MU to do well. Marquette will always have certain obstacles that are not easy to overcome. Money is not one of them. The school was willing to pay Shaka and in the end he backed out (I am not saying he was the answer, only using him as an example). We can blame the wife etc, but there just are other factors that come into play.
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In all fairness, college coaches leave all the time. He is by no means an anomaly. It is VERY rare to find a D-1 coach who stays at the same place for a long time. Guys like K, Boheim etc are the exception, not the rule.
Yes, but not many go the route he did, he is the exception. Quitting as a DI head coach to become an assistant....very rare. Leaving a program to take a pay cut and go to second tier program like Va Tech....very rare. So if we are going to talk about VERY RARE, let's also be honest about the VERY RARE actions Buzz has taken and he isn't done yet.
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Buzz won 67% of games at MU and won tournament games in 4 of 6 seasons, with two sweet 16's and elite 8
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the inaccurate statement by Goose or that Buzz had a very similar percentage of buy game wins in total wins.
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What inaccurate statement did I make?
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What inaccurate statement did I make?
That 40-50% of his wins were from cupcakes. It's 32%, which is just 3 percentage points different than Buzz. I would imagine most high major coaches are around 30% (Average 6 cupcakes per year out of roughly 20 wins per year)
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If Alan, or one of the other stats guru’s could show the amount of games Buzz won against the amount of games Wojo has won against real opponents that would be interesting.
I would define real opponents as a team who was quad 2 or 1 throughout the year?
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Brew
How is 49 out of 107 32%?
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true. and let the record show i hope Wojo sticks around. he can clearly recruit. just need to start adding some tallies to his tournament record on the W side
Lol, "can clearly recruit"
He is one of the worst recruiters MU has had in it's history, going back 50 years. Substandard, subpar, Wojo won't get you far
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TAMU
They might want to be elite, but have little clue on to make that happen. Wanting to be something and doing it are two different things. The closet MU was to elite, post Al, was the Buzz era. They have fallen woefully short since his departure. IMO, I would rather think they are OK with current status than think they are trying to be elite. They resemble a bubble team slowly going in reverse at the moment.
You and I have had our debates/disagreements over the years, but I do respect much of what you say. One question, what makes you so confident that they want to be elite? The on court product has delivered little in over a half decade.
Because they are taking the right approach. Large investment in the program, hiring a young coach with potential who wants to be at Marquette, and allowing him to work through growing pains. I always think about Rick Majerus. He was a disaster as MU's head coach but became a first ballot hall of famer after he left. I always wonder if he had been allowed to work through his growing pains and stuck around here, would he have become our Jim Boeheim or Jim Calhoun? A coach that stayed for decades and won big year after year? Certainly possible that he needed that time away to become the hall of famer that he did but I still wonder.
Churning through coaches every couple of years because they don't immediately win big isn't a winning strategy. Every time you hire a coach it is a risk, no matter what outside people say about them. Every one and their mother wanted Shaka to be our coach. Every expert, every search firm, every average joe would have labeled that a home run hire for us. Based on his record at Texas....maybe he would have done better here but his results have been pretty comparable to Wojo's despite a better starting point down in Austin. No one would have thought Chris Beard was a great hire at the time but he just played in a national championship game at a program with no history.
That doesn't mean that Wojo has a job forever. He's allowed to work through growing pains but he's got to show improvement. Personally, I've seen improvement from Wojo as a coach every year, with the jury still being out on this year. When he took over, I expected a two year rebuild before making it back to the tournament. Since then, we've had a 10 seed, NIT, and 5 seed. A good not great run of three years. Right now we're projected to be an 8 seed (personally think they will finish better than that). It that's the reality, 10, NIT, 5, 8 is still a good 4 year run, not great. Wojo will need to rebuild next year and is off to a great start with Dawson, Oso, and Justin. I expect his next 4 year run to be great instead of good.
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If Alan, or one of the other stats guru’s could show the amount of games Buzz won against the amount of games Wojo has won against real opponents that would be interesting.
I would define real opponents as a team who was quad 2 or 1 throughout the year?
I may have missed something but...
Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20. You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.
Wojo is 2-24 against those teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
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Lol, "can clearly recruit"
He is one of the worst recruiters MU has had in it's history, going back 50 years. Substandard, subpar, Wojo won't get you far
difference between recruiting and coaching them up. Wojo has multiple top 25 classes (247) and inked 10 top 100 prospects in his tenure
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13-19
20-13
19-13
21-13
24-10
Wojo’s records in his 5 years. So, if MU finishes better than 24-10 this season, do you let go of a coach who has improved 5 out 6 years? With a 1 win dip in the other year. At 10-3 right now, would have to go 14-7 to reach last year.
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Sultan
He does not have many signature wins under his belt. That is something I believe has been ignored on here. Every time I see the scoreboard watching posts to help our SOS I get pissed off. Play good teams and beat them and no need to be monitoring every Purdue game.
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Lol, "can clearly recruit"
He is one of the worst recruiters MU has had in it's history, going back 50 years. Substandard, subpar, Wojo won't get you far
Um, Mike Deane? The guy’s (probably) best recruit couldn’t make it past midterms at MU and did passed on Wally Szerbiak (sp?) for Polo and Chris Mihm for Greg Clausen.
50 years would mean 8 coaches. We’re Duiket and Majerus better recruits than Wojo?
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Sultan
He does not have many signature wins under his belt. That is something I believe has been ignored on here. Every time I see the scoreboard watching posts to help our SOS I get pissed off. Play good teams and beat them and no need to be monitoring every Purdue game.
I mean, I was doing that during the two years that Buzz earned us a 3 seed. SOS matters in seeding, whether you are a potential 1 seed or a fringe bubble team. So if you're curious about seeding in the tournament there is always a need to monitor your opponent's performances.
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I may have missed something but...
Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20. You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.
Wojo is 2-24 against those teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
Yikes, I didn't know it was that bad.
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Lol, "can clearly recruit"
He is one of the worst recruiters MU has had in it's history, going back 50 years. Substandard, subpar, Wojo won't get you far
Keep going....you are reeling people in with these sane comments.
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TAMU
I get why people do it, especially with a program like we currently have. Elite programs do not scoreboard watch. On here, we have guys that live and die by this. IMO, beat good teams and seeding takes care of itself.
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I may have missed something but...
Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20. You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.
Wojo is 2-24 against those teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
Of those 24 losses, I wonder how many were blowouts. Although, Buzz had his fair share of games where we got the doors blown off.
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Because they are taking the right approach. Large investment in the program, hiring a young coach with potential who wants to be at Marquette, and allowing him to work through growing pains. I always think about Rick Majerus. He was a disaster as MU's head coach but became a first ballot hall of famer after he left. I always wonder if he had been allowed to work through his growing pains and stuck around here, would he have become our Jim Boeheim or Jim Calhoun? A coach that stayed for decades and won big year after year? Certainly possible that he needed that time away to become the hall of famer that he did but I still wonder.
Churning through coaches every couple of years because they don't immediately win big isn't a winning strategy. Every time you hire a coach it is a risk, no matter what outside people say about them. Every one and their mother wanted Shaka to be our coach. Every expert, every search firm, every average joe would have labeled that a home run hire for us. Based on his record at Texas....maybe he would have done better here but his results have been pretty comparable to Wojo's despite a better starting point down in Austin. No one would have thought Chris Beard was a great hire at the time but he just played in a national championship game at a program with no history.
That doesn't mean that Wojo has a job forever. He's allowed to work through growing pains but he's got to show improvement. Personally, I've seen improvement from Wojo as a coach every year, with the jury still being out on this year. When he took over, I expected a two year rebuild before making it back to the tournament. Since then, we've had a 10 seed, NIT, and 5 seed. A good not great run of three years. Right now we're projected to be an 8 seed (personally think they will finish better than that). It that's the reality, 10, NIT, 5, 8 is still a good 4 year run, not great. Wojo will need to rebuild next year and is off to a great start with Dawson, Oso, and Justin. I expect his next 4 year run to be great instead of good.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0GtwcDSNteWx2vfy/giphy.gif)
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Another point to consider, we played a ton less games against KenPom top 20 teams. Those that thing our conference is big time should take note of that. Aside from top 2-3 teams the league is made up of a bunch of bubble teams every year.
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TAMU
I get why people do it, especially with a program like we currently have. Elite programs do not scoreboard watch. On here, we have guys that live and die by this. IMO, beat good teams and seeding takes care of itself.
Yeah....I've been on blue bloods boards. They absolutely have fans who do it. So I guess we are doing what the elite programs do.
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Because they are taking the right approach. Large investment in the program, hiring a young coach with potential who wants to be at Marquette, and allowing him to work through growing pains. I always think about Rick Majerus. He was a disaster as MU's head coach but became a first ballot hall of famer after he left. I always wonder if he had been allowed to work through his growing pains and stuck around here, would he have become our Jim Boeheim or Jim Calhoun? A coach that stayed for decades and won big year after year? Certainly possible that he needed that time away to become the hall of famer that he did but I still wonder.
I think Marquette needed Majerus to leave. They needed a disaster like Dukiet to realize how far they had fallen and the work they needed to do to return.
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TAMU
With all due respect, your post sounds like you have your fingers crossed that Wojo gets it done. We are 5+ years into this experiment and it is not a big success on the court. Do appreciate you saying the next four years over "next year". That hedges things a bit for you. Would hate to burn the "next year" card going into next season.
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TAMU
Give me Nova or the Zags program and I will figure out our seed pretty easily every year. No need to see how DePaul does at Eastern Montana on November 16th to figure things out.
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I think Marquette needed Majerus to leave. They needed a disaster like Dukiet to realize how far they had fallen and the work they needed to do to return.
Reading Majerus' book will tell folks how bad things were.
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TAMU
With all due respect, your post sounds like you have your fingers crossed that Wojo gets it done.
With all due respect, your post sounds like you have your fingers crossed that the next coach we have is an instant winner. And if that one doesn't work out, just fire him and fingers crossed the next guy is the big winner.
We are 5+ years into this experiment and it is not a big success on the court.
We haven't seen big success. Like I said, we've seen good, not great success. In my experience, guys who turn in good results after their first few years often grow into guys who turn in great results the next few years after that. I seem to recall you being a business man, do you make a practice of firing guys who have been solid in the first few years? Personally, I like to invest in those guys' growth and am usually very happy with the results.
Do appreciate you saying the next four years over "next year". That hedges things a bit for you. Would hate to burn the "next year" card going into next season.
It doesn't hedge anything really. Anyone expecting us to be better next season than we are this season is smoking something strong. I fully expect us to take a step back after graduating 4 seniors including an all american. College basketball programs are built in cycles. You have a down year followed by 2-3 up years. Each cycle should improve on the last. Wojo's first was no posteason, no postseason, 10 seed. His second so far is NIT, 5 seed, and TBD. If this year ends poorly, and next season misses the tournament, that is the ideal time to consider a chance in coaches. Personally, I haven't given up on this season given that we are barely a third through it.
TAMU
Give me Nova or the Zags program and I will figure out our seed pretty easily every year. No need to see how DePaul does at Eastern Montana on November 16th to figure things out.
But there is a need...seeding is determined by formulas such as the NET...which uses data from all games even ones like DePaul against Montana State
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Wojo is 2-24 against top 20 Kenpom teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
just checked for tomorrow, Nova #22 Kenpom. Victory confirmed
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I may have missed something but...
Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20. You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.
Wojo is 2-24 against those teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
Kansas St. finished 20 last year. I don't think you missed any others.
Purdue is currently in the top 20 as well but lots of season left.
We do seem to have a lot of success against teams 20-40.
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13-19
20-13
19-13
21-13
24-10
Wojo’s records in his 5 years. So, if MU finishes better than 24-10 this season, do you let go of a coach who has improved 5 out 6 years? With a 1 win dip in the other year. At 10-3 right now, would have to go 14-7 to reach last year.
Your math is deficient. Going from 20-13 to 19-13 is not an improvement. So quit making up a false statistic.
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TAMU
Give me Nova or the Zags program and I will figure out our seed pretty easily every year. No need to see how DePaul does at Eastern Montana on November 16th to figure things out.
Interesting you say that.....because both of those fanbases wanted their head coach fired for not winning enough in March. Too many first round losses or not getting into the second weekend. The administrations stuck with them. Nova went to a Final Four and then 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, no tournament at all, first round loss and Nova fans had the pitchforks out. Probably why Jay Wright said it's a crapshoot.
Mark Few, before their last Elite Eight went 7 of 8 years not getting to the second weekend and some of their fan were irate....probably why he said it's a crapshoot. ;D
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Interesting you say that.....because both of those fanbases wanted their head coach fired for not winning enough in March. Too many first round losses or not getting into the second weekend. The administrations stuck with them. Nova went to a Final Four and then 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, no tournament at all, first round loss and Nova fans had the pitchforks out. Probably why Jay Wright said it's a crapshoot.
Mark Few, before their last Elite Eight went 7 of 8 years not getting to the second weekend and some of their fan were irate....probably why he said it's a crapshoot. ;D
so I count 1 missed year 4/5 years as a very competitive team. Weve had 2/6?
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Cheeks
Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.
You know I am a Cheeks fan, but sometimes you really are over the top in an attempt to make a point. Wojo is not going to become Few or Wright and even the biggest Wojo backer would think that is a stretch.
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Your math is deficient. Going from 20-13 to 19-13 is not an improvement. So quit making up a false statistic.
The year we went 20-13 we played the 75th toughest schedule.
The next year we went 19-13 with the 37th toughest schedule.
Your math is too simplistic to understand there is more depth to the analysis. This is why in year 3 we went to the NCAA tournament, and year two we did not.
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Had Wojo had the success we wanted his first five years, he would have already been gone.
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Had Wojo had the success we wanted his first five years, he would have already been gone.
Not sure about that but anything is possible. What is for certain is he would have a longer term and more lucrative contract with Marquette.
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Cheeks
Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.
You know I am a Cheeks fan, but sometimes you really are over the top in an attempt to make a point. Wojo is not going to become Few or Wright and even the biggest Wojo backer would think that is a stretch.
I am not a Wojo backer and I think it is possible and I think it is foolish to suggest that it is impossible. All great coaches were worse coaches at the beginning of their careers than at the end of their careers. Great coaches are always learning and always improving. I've seen growth from Wojo each year and still see potential. I'd rather nurture that potential than tear down everything and hope the next guy is better. If the growth stops, that's when you change horses.
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so I count 1 missed year 4/5 years as a very competitive team. Weve had 2/6?
Wojo has only been here 5 full seasons...so if you are saddling Buzz with his last season and should saddle Buzz with Wojo's first because he inherited that mess....correct. I thought I was clear in saying what their fan bases were pissed off about...first round losses / missed tournament, not getting to the second weekend.
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Should Jay Wright be fired...that was the headline in March of 2011. I love this headline. Why, because they lost their last 5 games... because the next year was even worse as they missed the tournament entirely. And the year after that, one and done...and still he had a job.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/630868-big-east-tournament-is-this-the-end-for-villanova-and-coach-jay-wright
The article talks of how only one or two guys were shouldering the load and he had to get more players involved. Guess what....coaches learn.
Incidentally, about 4 hours ago Wright was named AP coach of the decade, because fans don't call the shots. https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/01/03/sports/ncaabasketball/ap-bkc-all-decade-coach.html
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Your math is too simplistic to understand there is more depth to the analysis.
Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic..
(https://tomhorsley.com/politics/queeg.jpg)
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Cheeks
Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.
Goose:
The thing is, I don't know. I know we have great recruits coming in next year and if Mr. Mane comes here, it will be spectacular. Coach Wojo may be a Top 5 guy. But the fact that we still are asking this question is, in itself, a problem.
If he leaves and gets a Natty somewhere else, the descendants of the folks on this Board now will go nuts. And, it will be a crying shame.But, what scares most of us, is how long do we have to wait to know?
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Cheeks
Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.
You know I am a Cheeks fan, but sometimes you really are over the top in an attempt to make a point. Wojo is not going to become Few or Wright and even the biggest Wojo backer would think that is a stretch.
I don't think anyone will make MU a top 10 program for any decent length of time. We have been a top 10 program ONE TIME in our history for any decent interval....Al is gone.
I cannot be anymore blunt than that....I don't think there is anyone out there that can do it for a long period of time that would actually come to MU and stay at MU. I believe we can be a 15 to 25 program. I believe 15 to 25 is very good and high expectations. No doubt some of you will say I don't have high enough expectations....well, that's fine. I look at who the top 10 programs are, what they do to stay there and MU isn't remotely in that category in a dozen factors.
Buzz appeared in the AP top 10 two seasons, his first two years. Wojo one season (last year). Crean four seasons. Only ONE of those years did we finish the season top 10...that was the Final Four year. Only once.
http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.Xg_FkkdKi73
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Brew
How is 49 out of 107 32%?
Wojo hasn't played anything remotely close to 49 cupcakes. He’s only played 51 total home non-con games.
It's disingenuous to include this year because every team plays more cupcakes in non-con so it unfairly skews the percentage. I only included full seasons, but excluded games like Vermont & Buffalo. Here are those results:
2014-15 (5): Tennessee-Martin, NJIT, Alabama A&M, North Dakota, Morgan State
2015-16 (8): IUPUI, Jackson State, Grambling, Maine, San Jose State, Chicago State, Presbyterian, Stetson
2016-17 (6): Howard, IUPUI, Houston Baptist, Western Carolina, St Francis PA, SIUE
2017-18 (5): Mount St Mary's, Eastern Illinois, Chicago State, Northern Illinois, American
2018-19 (7): UMBC, Bethune Cookman, Presbyterian, Charleston Southern, UTEP, North Dakota, Southern
So that's 31 out of 97, which is 31.96%, which I rounded up to 32. Even if you add the 6 this year, that's 38 of 107, which is 35.51%, still short of your target number (but again, incomplete seasons are disingenuous, in my opinion).
49 is a ridiculous number that would only work if you included high majors like Wisconsin & Purdue, non-cupcake buys like Fresno State or Buffalo, or weak Big East teams like DePaul or St John's.
Also, welcome back to posting. Noticed you were gone for awhile, happy to see you've returned & hope all is well.
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Interesting you say that.....because both of those fanbases wanted their head coach fired for not winning enough in March. Too many first round losses or not getting into the second weekend. The administrations stuck with them. Nova went to a Final Four and then 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, no tournament at all, first round loss and Nova fans had the pitchforks out. Probably why Jay Wright said it's a crapshoot.
Mark Few, before their last Elite Eight went 7 of 8 years not getting to the second weekend and some of their fan were irate....probably why he said it's a crapshoot. ;D
I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.
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I don't think anyone will make MU a top 10 program for any decent length of time. We have been a top 10 program ONE TIME in our history for any decent interval....Al is gone.
I cannot be anymore blunt than that....I don't think there is anyone out there that can do it for a long period of time that would actually come to MU and stay at MU. I believe we can be a 15 to 25 program. I believe 15 to 25 is very good and high expectations. No doubt some of you will say I don't have high enough expectations....well, that's fine. I look at who the top 10 programs are, what they do to stay there and MU isn't remotely in that category in a dozen factors.
Buzz appeared in the AP top 10 two seasons, his first two years. Wojo one season (last year). Crean four seasons. Only ONE of those years did we finish the season top 10...that was the Final Four year. Only once.
http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.Xg_FkkdKi73
I think the MU standard that Mike Deanes Dark Glasses laid out is a reasonable one.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59612.msg1187455#msg1187455
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That doesn't mean that Wojo has a job forever. He's allowed to work through growing pains but he's got to show improvement. Personally, I've seen improvement from Wojo as a coach every year, with the jury still being out on this year. When he took over, I expected a two year rebuild before making it back to the tournament. Since then, we've had a 10 seed, NIT, and 5 seed. A good not great run of three years. Right now we're projected to be an 8 seed (personally think they will finish better than that). It that's the reality, 10, NIT, 5, 8 is still a good 4 year run, not great. Wojo will need to rebuild next year and is off to a great start with Dawson, Oso, and Justin. I expect his next 4 year run to be great instead of good.
It's easy to be optimistic when you continue to think going from the NCAA to the NIT is an improvement.
You also claimed this was the year Wojo was building toward. Well here we are, unranked and a projected 8 seed, so of course you're back to kicking the can down the road.
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I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.
Yup, he's got the perfect setup. Essentially an automatic bid playing in a bad conference. It's like the Patriots starting out most years 6-0 before they play a single game. They have a unique situation and they took advantage of it. Perhaps we should downgrade to the Horizon?
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I think the MU standard that Mike Deanes Dark Glasses laid out is a reasonable one.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59612.msg1187455#msg1187455
Reasonable in what sense...it's reasonable to accomplish what only 4 programs in the nation have done per his "reasonable" criteria. Sorry, I don't think 4/353 (1.1%) is reasonable. Over the last 20 years FOUR schools have gone to the NCAA's 99% of the time. FOUR. That's reasonable criteria...on what planet?
Kansas
Duke
Michigan State
Gonzaga
Then when you get into his other nonsense about Sweet 16's per decade, Final Four per decade....there is nothing reasonable about it at all.
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Reasonable in what sense...it's reasonable to accomplish what only 4 programs in the nation have done per his "reasonable" criteria. Sorry, I don't think 4/353 (1.1%) is reasonable. Over the last 20 years FOUR schools have gone to the NCAA's 99% of the time. FOUR. That's reasonable criteria...on what planet?
Kansas
Duke
Michigan State
Gonzaga
Then when you get into his other nonsense about Sweet 16's per decade, Final Four per decade....there is nothing reasonable about it at all.
I agree, the NCAA should probably be closer to 90 percent. Miss once in 10 years. The rest was all pretty much achieved over the course of Crean/Buzz. I think it is a standard that is not unreasonable at all. All we need is the right coach. We just have the wrong guy to meet that standard. Our guy gets us to the Creighton standard which is perfect for Creighton. Yet we have MU resources, so our standard should be higher. We came close the Mike Deans Dark Glass Standard (MDDGS) in the totality of the Crean/Buzz era . So it is reasonably attainable.
The reality is that the MDDGS is not the standard The Imperial Grand Poobah of MU has set for our basketball coach. He is willing to accept the Creighton standard. The real blame goes to Lovell in my book.
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I may have missed something but...
Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20. You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.
Wojo is 2-24 against those teams. The wins? Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year. More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams. He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan) Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)
So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.
This is a pretty standout stat. I wonder what the 20-40 (i.e. tournament teams) record looks like.
It's also worth pointing out that fully 11 of those 24 losses to top 20 teams have been to Villanova, who finished 5, 1, 2, 1 and 30 in the last five years in KenPom.
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I agree, the NCAA should probably be closer to 90 percent. Miss once in 10 years. The rest was all pretty much achieved over the course of Crean/Buzz. I think it is a standard that is not unreasonable at all. All we need is the right coach. We just have the wrong guy to meet that standard. Our guy gets us to the Creighton standard which is perfect for Creighton. Yet we have MU resources, so our standard should be higher. We came close the Mike Deans Dark Glass Standard (MDDGS) in the totality of the Crean/Buzz era . So it is reasonably attainable.
The reality is that the MDDGS is not the standard The Imperial Grand Poobah of MU has set for our basketball coach. He is willing to accept the Creighton standard. The real blame goes to Lovell in my book.
No blame, just expectations not aligned with reality. Should we also be like Stanford academically or MIT?
For giggles, the number of programs that have made it 9 out of 10 years
6 schools....6 out of 353
Kansas 10 of 10
Duke 10 of 10
Michigan State 10 of 10
Gonzaga 10 of 10
Cincinnati 9 of 10
North Carolina 9 of 10
Carolina may not make it this year. Cincinnati is also in trouble.
Again, I ask how is this a REASONABLE STANDARD? It simply isn't. It's fandom not anchored to a bit of reality anywhere.
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I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.
Buzz took us to 7 straight NCAAs? Hmm...
09 + 10 + 11 + 12 + 13=...
If you're including Creans three it was 8 straight.
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It's easy to be optimistic when you continue to think going from the NCAA to the NIT is an improvement.
You continue to misunderstand. Going from 13-19 to NIT is improvement.
You also claimed this was the year Wojo was building toward. Well here we are, unranked and a projected 8 seed, so of course you're back to kicking the can down the road.
Yes, this year is supposed to be the best so far. I'm reserving judgement given that we're a little over a third of the way through the season. I still think we end up with a 4-6 seed which I'd be happy with. Not ecstatic but happy. If we end up 7 seed - first four (where we are now) I'll be disappointed. If you actually read my posts, you'll notice that I said that if he follows that up by missing the tournament next season, I'd be ready to consider changing coaches. I don't think that's really kicking the can down the road.
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Brew
Of course the numbers will change with more games played this season. My post was simply based off the record that was noted in a post.
As for returning, it has nothing to do with the Creighton game. Was in Asia the week before Xmas, and quite frankly, MU ball has been on vacation since K State game. Not much to talk about when playing a scrimmage.
Thus far, only the truly optimistic could be posting. Not many meaningful games and gaps in between. I would love to be posting about an upcoming big game in early season, but non were on the schedule, aside from UW.
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You continue to misunderstand. Going from 13-19 to NIT is improvement.
Yes, this year is supposed to be the best so far. I'm reserving judgement given that we're a little over a third of the way through the season. I still think we end up with a 4-6 seed which I'd be happy with. Not ecstatic but happy. If we end up 7 seed - first four (where we are now) I'll be disappointed. If you actually read my posts, you'll notice that I said that if he follows that up by missing the tournament next season, I'd be ready to consider changing coaches. I don't think that's really kicking the can down the road.
If every season that is better than 13-19 is considered to be improvement, then I don't know what to say. Going from the NCAA to the NIT, which Wojo did, is not improving every year.
As for the seeding and next year, if that's your standard, fair enough. It just seems like a lot of people in Wojo's corner have quick trigger fingers for someone they think is doing a good job. If you believe a coach is an NIT appearance away from the unemployment line, then how good of a job is he really doing?
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If every season that is better than 13-19 is considered to be improvement, then I don't know what to say. Going from the NCAA to the NIT, which Wojo did, is not improving every year.
As for the seeding and next year, if that's your standard, fair enough. It just seems like a lot of people in Wojo's corner have quick trigger fingers for someone they think is doing a good job. If you believe a coach is an NIT appearance away from the unemployment line, then how good of a job is he really doing?
It should be noted that our NET in 2018 would've gotten us in but RPI was still the deciding factor. We were a good team that year.
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It should be noted that our NET in 2018 would've gotten us in but RPI was still the deciding factor. We were a good team that year.
We were an NIT team that year.
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We were an NIT team that year.
I get that, I didn't say we weren't. We would be in with todays metrics all things the same.
I'm only pointing out that we were a good team that year.
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I get that, I didn't say we weren't. We would be in with todays metrics all things the same.
I'm only pointing out that we were a good team that year.
We couldn’t have been that good if we didn’t even get in the tourney and got our asses beat by Penn State in the NIT at home, hey?
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We couldn’t have been that good if we didn’t even get in the tourney and got our asses beat by Penn State in the NIT at home, hey?
Still would've been in. People act like because that team was in the NIT it was horrible and a huge step below the year prior. I'm not proclaiming it to have been a great team or even a top 25 team only that using today's metrics it was a tournament team.
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We couldn’t have been that good if we didn’t even get in the tourney and got our asses beat by Penn State in the NIT at home, hey?
Not to burst your bubble, but Penn State finished the year 19th in Ken Pom....ahead of schools like Buzz’s Va Tech, MU, etc.
They beat Ohio State three times, Maryland, etc. won the NIT.
We also beat Oregon if I recall.
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Not to burst your bubble, but Penn State finished the year 19th in Ken Pom....ahead of schools like Buzz’s Va Tech, MU, etc.
They beat Ohio State three times, Maryland, etc. won the NIT.
We also beat Oregon if I recall.
Crapshoot, hey?
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Crapshoot, hey?
Not as much in NIT...get to host games on campus....definite added advantage.
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Brew
Of course the numbers will change with more games played this season. My post was simply based off the record that was noted in a post.
As for returning, it has nothing to do with the Creighton game. Was in Asia the week before Xmas, and quite frankly, MU ball has been on vacation since K State game. Not much to talk about when playing a scrimmage.
Thus far, only the truly optimistic could be posting. Not many meaningful games and gaps in between. I would love to be posting about an upcoming big game in early season, but non were on the schedule, aside from UW.
Regardless, 49 cupcakes wasn't close to accurate.
I'm glad you're back and all is well. Agree or disagree, this site is better when you're around.
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Should Jay Wright be fired...that was the headline in March of 2011. I love this headline. Why, because they lost their last 5 games...
Two Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a league title, and a Final Four before that was written. He had a record of accomplishment Wojo can't even dream of.
This comparison has always been apples to anvils and yet I still see it pop up here.
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MUfan12
Cheeks knows it is a crazy argument and loves to create action. He is HOF scooper, but slips into the deep end on regular basis. That said, he is a first ballot HOF scooper.
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No blame, just expectations not aligned with reality. Should we also be like Stanford academically or MIT?
For giggles, the number of programs that have made it 9 out of 10 years
6 schools....6 out of 353
Kansas 10 of 10
Duke 10 of 10
Michigan State 10 of 10
Gonzaga 10 of 10
Cincinnati 9 of 10
North Carolina 9 of 10
Carolina may not make it this year. Cincinnati is also in trouble.
Again, I ask how is this a REASONABLE STANDARD? It simply isn't. It's fandom not anchored to a bit of reality anywhere.
You are only looking at the making NCAA part of MDDGS. Everything else laid out under the MDDGS, the making sweet 16, Elite 8s, Final 4 and wins ,MU Made under Crean/Buzz
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As for the seeding and next year, if that's your standard, fair enough. It just seems like a lot of people in Wojo's corner have quick trigger fingers for someone they think is doing a good job. If you believe a coach is an NIT appearance away from the unemployment line, then how good of a job is he really doing?
He is doing as good of job as a guy two bad years away from being fired. So as good as most people.
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Hi, my names Joe(not really) long time lurker first time poster. I'm 55(yes really). I've read nearly every post relevant to coaching and recruiting and have to admit I'm somewhat confused. Do some of you think we're a blue blood? Times and college basketball have changed. Milwaukee is not the same city it was in the 70s and Marquette is not the same program. Considering the decline of the city I would say our basketball program has acquitted itself rather well over the years but it isn't a Mecca( no pun intended ) for the most elite players or head coaches.
Which brings us to Wojo.
I do believe he had/has a plan to transplant the Duke culture to Marquette. A tough ask from the jump but I think he has steadily been incorporating the values and principles that have made Duke what it is today. A relatively clean program that preaches defense but allows offensive stars to shine, ( think H.E., Rowsey, Markus, and even Luke Fischer who never quite reached critical mass ) I believe this philosophy has led directly to this promising 2020 recruiting class and will bear more fruit in the future IF Wolo stays. Wojo, like coach K understands it's the players that ultimately win championships and demonstrating a long leash with your star players is great bait to entice other elite players to the program. It seems to be working. Why fix it?
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MUfan12
Cheeks knows it is a crazy argument and loves to create action. He is HOF scooper, but slips into the deep end on regular basis. That said, he is a first ballot HOF scooper.
His basketball card was pulled months ago when he said Jayce Johnson was average.
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JD, iz dat ewe, hey?
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Hi, my names Joe(not really) long time lurker first time poster. I'm 55(yes really). I've read nearly every post relevant to coaching and recruiting and have to admit I'm somewhat confused. Do some of you think we're a blue blood? Times and college basketball have changed. Milwaukee is not the same city it was in the 70s and Marquette is not the same program. Considering the decline of the city I would say our basketball program has acquitted itself rather well over the years but it isn't a Mecca( no pun intended ) for the most elite players or head coaches.
Which brings us to Wojo.
I do believe he had/has a plan to transplant the Duke culture to Marquette. A tough ask from the jump but I think he has steadily been incorporating the values and principles that have made Duke what it is today. A relatively clean program that preaches defense but allows offensive stars to shine, ( think H.E., Rowsey, Markus, and even Luke Fischer who never quite reached critical mass ) I believe this philosophy has led directly to this promising 2020 recruiting class and will bear more fruit in the future IF Wolo stays. Wojo, like coach K understands it's the players that ultimately win championships and demonstrating a long leash with your star players is great bait to entice other elite players to the program. It seems to be working. Why fix it?
Seeing as how the coach immediately preceding Wojo had astronomically more success in a similar amount of time, alluding to the notion that people that think Wojo's results aren't enough by saying this isn't the 70s anymore makes no sense at all.
Further, I think you are massively underrating coaching. We have had studs on this roster with nothing to show for them. We've been promised that the NEXT recruit is the BIG FISH three or four times by now. It's not working - we should fix it.
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Hi, my names Joe(not really) long time lurker first time poster. I'm 55(yes really). I've read nearly every post relevant to coaching and recruiting and have to admit I'm somewhat confused. Do some of you think we're a blue blood? Times and college basketball have changed. Milwaukee is not the same city it was in the 70s and Marquette is not the same program. Considering the decline of the city...
Milwaukee is a nicer city now than it was during Al’s time.
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Milwaukee is a nicer city now than it was during Al’s time.
How’s the crime?
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Milwaukee is a nicer city now than it was during Al’s time.
Great point. Willing to bet this baby boomer hasn't been downtown in 10 years.
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How’s the crime?
Pretty sure it's lower
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Pretty sure it's lower
I’ll spare you from the data. But that’s a hard no.
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Hi, my names Joe(not really) long time lurker first time poster. I'm 55(yes really). I've read nearly every post relevant to coaching and recruiting and have to admit I'm somewhat confused. Do some of you think we're a blue blood? Times and college basketball have changed. Milwaukee is not the same city it was in the 70s and Marquette is not the same program. Considering the decline of the city I would say our basketball program has acquitted itself rather well over the years but it isn't a Mecca( no pun intended ) for the most elite players or head coaches.
Which brings us to Wojo.
I do believe he had/has a plan to transplant the Duke culture to Marquette. A tough ask from the jump but I think he has steadily been incorporating the values and principles that have made Duke what it is today. A relatively clean program that preaches defense but allows offensive stars to shine, ( think H.E., Rowsey, Markus, and even Luke Fischer who never quite reached critical mass ) I believe this philosophy has led directly to this promising 2020 recruiting class and will bear more fruit in the future IF Wolo stays. Wojo, like coach K understands it's the players that ultimately win championships and demonstrating a long leash with your star players is great bait to entice other elite players to the program. It seems to be working. Why fix it?
What? Decline of Milwaukee? Luke Fischer offensive star? Preaches defense?
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Two Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a league title, and a Final Four before that was written. He had a record of accomplishment Wojo can't even dream of.
This comparison has always been apples to anvils and yet I still see it pop up here.
The point was people wanting to fire the coach....fans usually don’t know what they are talking about and are on the ledge screaming for ridiculous actions. The administration didn’t listen...the cries were much louder the next year when they missed...they didn’t listen.
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I’ll spare you from the data. But that’s a hard no.
Could only find data for the whole state going back that far and it was lower. But I'd still bet Milwaukee's got more investment in revitalizing it now than then.
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Could only find data for the whole state going back that far and it was lower. But I'd still bet Milwaukee's got more investment in revitalizing it now than then.
That is true. But the population in the metro Milwaukee area is up slightly since the 70’s and violent crime has more than doubled.
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Like a lot of cities, crime centered in certain neighborhoods. And crime isn’t the only way to judge a city’s livability.
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The violent crime rate in Milwaukee has declined since the 70s.
No. It hasn’t.
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No. It hasn’t.
I corrected myself. I misread a table that had Wisconsin’s overall.
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I corrected myself. I misread a table that had Wisconsin’s overall.
Probs the same table I misread when I said I think it had declined
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Probs the same table I misread when I said I think it had declined
Either way no matter. Milwaukee is a fine American city. Lots of fun to be had.
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What? Decline of Milwaukee? Luke Fischer offensive star? Preaches defense?
Yes Milwaukee used to be the largest manufacturing center in the country if not the world. Yes Luke Fischer was given a long leash offensively but never excelled( maybe due to his shoulder ). Yes preaches defense, doesn't mean we currently have the players to execute said defense.
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Yes Milwaukee used to be the largest manufacturing center in the country if not the world. Yes Luke Fischer was given a long leash offensively but never excelled( maybe due to his shoulder ). Yes preaches defense, doesn't mean we currently have the players to execute said defense.
I gotta get more explanation on this. when you're driving around old world third, water street, the third ward and fifth wards you see it as on the decline?heck even whatever that neighborhood south of the 6th bridge is has the distillery and craft brewery now. Plus new skyscrapers give Milwaukee a skyline now not just a line with a big US Bank sign
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It seems to be working. Why fix it?
I don't think Wojo himself would agree with this. I think he is working like a dog every day to fix it. Wojo is not a dumb guy. He knows the results are not good enough. (Yet?)
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Yes Milwaukee used to be the largest manufacturing center in the country if not the world. Yes Luke Fischer was given a long leash offensively but never excelled( maybe due to his shoulder ). Yes preaches defense, doesn't mean we currently have the players to execute said defense.
That doesn't mean the city has declined, in fact some would argue that makes the city more diverse, educated and an overall better place to live. I will concede the other two points even as weak as they are.
Milwaukee is a place where Marquette, the Bucks, Brewers and many other things can succeed and thrive. The Milwaukee inferiority complex excuse is getting old
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Milwaukee is a place where Marquette, the Bucks, Brewers and many other things can succeed are succeeding and thrive. The Milwaukee inferiority complex excuse is getting old
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Hi, my names Joe(not really) long time lurker first time poster. I'm 55(yes really). I've read nearly every post relevant to coaching and recruiting and have to admit I'm somewhat confused. Do some of you think we're a blue blood? Times and college basketball have changed. Milwaukee is not the same city it was in the 70s and Marquette is not the same program. Considering the decline of the city I would say our basketball program has acquitted itself rather well over the years but it isn't a Mecca( no pun intended ) for the most elite players or head coaches.
Which brings us to Wojo.
I do believe he had/has a plan to transplant the Duke culture to Marquette. A tough ask from the jump but I think he has steadily been incorporating the values and principles that have made Duke what it is today. A relatively clean program that preaches defense but allows offensive stars to shine, ( think H.E., Rowsey, Markus, and even Luke Fischer who never quite reached critical mass ) I believe this philosophy has led directly to this promising 2020 recruiting class and will bear more fruit in the future IF Wolo stays. Wojo, like coach K understands it's the players that ultimately win championships and demonstrating a long leash with your star players is great bait to entice other elite players to the program. It seems to be working. Why fix it?
Thanks Chicos
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Ty
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Yes preaches defense, doesn't mean we currently have the players to execute said defense.
This constantly ripping on Wojo and the players he recruits is getting old. If you don't like Wojo, go cheer for another team.
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Thanks Chicos
This was funny
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This constantly ripping on Wojo and the players he recruits is getting old. If you don't like Wojo, go cheer for another team.
Let me just exchange my diploma for one from a basketball blue blood. Cheering for Marquette and criticizing Wojo are not and will never be mutually exclusive.
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This constantly ripping on Wojo and the players he recruits is getting old. If you don't like Wojo, go cheer for another team.
Apathy is much worse. Which is slowly setting in.
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Let me just exchange my diploma for one from a basketball blue blood. Cheering for Marquette and criticizing Wojo are not and will never be mutually exclusive.
Agreed. 100% I should have used teal. My bad.
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Apathy is much worse. Which is slowly setting in.
Also agree. Apathy is much worse than fan outrage even if it is not totally reasonable. Apathy will dry up the revenue of any team, pro or college.
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This constantly ripping on Wojo and the players he recruits is getting old. If you don't like Wojo, go cheer for another team.
Ummm I'm a Wojo supporter. I wasn't "ripping" on anyone. Wojo preaches man to man defense like Duke but we don't seem to have the players that can stay in front of their man enough to be really effective against certain teams. See last game played. There's no shame in switching up to Zone now and then. Even Duke does it occasionally. That said I believe you do have to stick with a system to be successful in general.
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Thanks Chicos
Lol. I almost wrote the same thing Ners
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Ummm I'm a Wojo supporter. I wasn't "ripping" on anyone. Wojo preaches man to man defense like Duke but we don't seem to have the players that can stay in front of their man enough to be really effective against certain teams. See last game played. There's no shame in switching up to Zone now and then. Even Duke does it occasionally. That said I believe you do have to stick with a system to be successful in general.
Well Wojo has been at MU for a long time and recruited the players he wants so if you have a problem with the skill level of the players he brings in then I don't know what to tell you. Seems like you want to complain about the 19 to 21 year old college students that don't play defense up to your expectation. I guess these kids are letting you and Wojo down. So sorry for both of you.
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I gotta get more explanation on this. when you're driving around old world third, water street, the third ward and fifth wards you see it as on the decline?heck even whatever that neighborhood south of the 6th bridge is has the distillery and craft brewery now. Plus new skyscrapers give Milwaukee a skyline now not just a line with a big US Bank sign
80s joke - some raises their middle finger and asks what this? Milwaukee skyline.
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He is doing as good of job as a guy two bad years away from being fired. So as good as most people.
You said if he makes the tournament as a seven seed or worse then misses the tourney next year that you would consider changing coaches. So one missed tourney. A successful coach would rightfully be given much more rope than that.
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Well Wojo has been at MU for a long time and recruited the players he wants so if you have a problem with the skill level of the players he brings in then I don't know what to tell you. Seems like you want to complain about the 19 to 21 year old college students that don't play defense up to your expectation. I guess these kids are letting you and Wojo down. So sorry for both of you.
Wow you must really be looking for a fight. Let me be perfectly clear. I really like the kids on this years team but they all have their strengths AND weaknesses. It's up to Wojo to come up with a strategy to capitalize on their strengths while preventing the other team from exploiting their weaknesses.
Easier said than done. Switching to Zone at times might help but it might hurt the ultimate goal of getting the man to man to where it needs to be. I truly believe at this point in the season Creighton was a nightmare matchup and hope the man to man defense and defensive transition will dramatically improve as the season progresses. If, however, Villanova (who this team should match up with better) exploits our man defense early on there's no shame in going to a zone or mixing it up.
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You said if he makes the tournament as a seven seed or worse then misses the tourney next year that you would consider changing coaches. So one missed tourney. A successful coach would rightfully be given much more rope than that.
A great coach would be given more rope than that. A good coach might, depends on what you think the future holds. So far Wojo has been a good not great coach.
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This constantly ripping on Wojo and the players he recruits is getting old. If you don't like Wojo, go cheer for another team.
Yes sir!
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hairy
I think apathy is definitely worse than outrage and believe it has set in for many fans. When folks on here say that the Dukiet era cannot be repeated it makes me pissed off. Things can slide quickly, especially when folks stop caring.
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Milwaukee is a nicer city now than it was during Al’s time.
Absolutely.
No tanning smells. No brewery yeast and no other nasty industrial scent drifting over campus.
Milwaukee actually is rather exciting. OK, it isn't Chicago but the city's a very nice mid-sized community. The Third Ward and Lower East Side are fun. The downtown is showing signs of real life. The ballpark is first rate, the cultural attractions strong and the community is gradually cleaning up the scars of a post-industrial world.
The challenge Milwaukee has is to create an economic base for its entire community. Too much of Milwaukee doesn't earn a living wage or is overly dependent on government as a primary means of support. For Milwaukee to be truly vibrant, as other posters note, that has to change.
As to whether ballplayers will come here, have you been to Louisville lately? Seriously, if a recruit is seeking ivy colored walls and a bucolic environment, we haven't got a prayer. If an urban area with a great school, great facilities, wonderful tradition, best in the world fans (especially on Scoop) and hopeful coaching is what they want, come on up, you won't do better!
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dgies
Watch it on the tanning smells. My family was proud owner of one of MKE’s fine tanneries. Those were the days!!
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But Goose you know that Milwaukee's transition away from that has been long and hard. digies is right that the transformation of Milwaukee hasn't lifted up enough people and hasn't touched the segregation that has always been a part of the city, but there has been a transformation. Whenever I am back there, I am amazed what the city is now versus when I was in school.
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Basically what dgies said. Milwaukee is a fine town nowadays having recovered nicely from the death of de-industrialization. It took an entire generation. That said, the economic benefit has not yet fully matriculated to the underclass that continues to suffer to this day for a variety of reasons. Still, the influx (and retention) of young, upwardly mobile folks has her on the right track assuming competent civic leadership. I, for one, am thrilled to see it in my lifetime having necessarily left in the early 80s.
As to the coach thing, yeah, apathy is my next (current?) phase without some real progress. I didn't pay attention to the Bucks when they won 15 games either. Nor do I know a single guy on the Bulls now.
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But Goose you know that Milwaukee's transition away from that has been long and hard. digies is right that the transformation of Milwaukee hasn't lifted up enough people and hasn't touched the segregation that has always been a part of the city, but there has been a transformation. Whenever I am back there, I am amazed what the city is now versus when I was in school.
Gentrification can be very deceitful.
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Fluff
In some ways MKE was a better town in the ‘70’s and some ways better today. I am happy to see that after falling behind most major cities that real progress is being made. It took our leaders far too long to realize the need for change which caused much of the issues still needed to be addressed.
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As a lifetime resident of this city, downtown MKE and MKE in general are 100% improved over "the good old days." For those left behind in the resurgence, what have they personally done to improve their place in life?
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As a lifetime resident of this city, downtown MKE and MKE in general are 100% improved over "the good old days." For those left behind in the resurgence, what have they personally done to improve their place in life?
Thank you. Spot on. There are obviously issues that need to be addressed. The city is still segregated and crime is way too high.
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Ms. Dgies and I are thinking seriously about when we become empty nesters, retiring in Milwaukee -- part of the year. Our goal would be to buy a condo on the Lower East Side facing the Lake.
Thing about it gang. In the summer, Milwaukee is unbeatable. The Lakefront is fantastic; the baseball; the festivals; the bars and restaurants; and, the city is very livable and very affordable. Sorry Goose, having those tanning smells gone and far less yeast smell is a good thing!
Contrast it to its gargantuan neighbor where we now live part-year. While we love Chicago, the cost of living there is astronomical and the uncertainty over future costs ridiculous. If you want to go there, great, its 90 minutes away (at most) on Amtrak, or slightly longer than a commute from the northern Lake County suburbs now. People complain about crime in Milwaukee but Chicago is on a different planet.
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Ms. Dgies and I are thinking seriously about when we become empty nesters, retiring in Milwaukee -- part of the year. Our goal would be to buy a condo on the Lower East Side facing the Lake.
Thing about it gang. In the summer, Milwaukee is unbeatable. The Lakefront is fantastic; the baseball; the festivals; the bars and restaurants; and, the city is very livable and very affordable. Sorry Goose, having those tanning smells gone and far less yeast smell is a good thing!
Contrast it to its gargantuan neighbor where we now live part-year. While we love Chicago, the cost of living there is astronomical and the uncertainty over future costs ridiculous. If you want to go there, great, its 90 minutes away (at most) on Amtrak, or slightly longer than a commute from the northern Lake County suburbs now. People complain about crime in Milwaukee but Chicago is on a different planet.
Not to nitpick here dgles because I agree with 90% of what you said but how often do you find yourself frequenting Austin, Englewood, Hermosa etc where the crime is on a "different planet"? Like every city the vast majority is in specific areas and like moving to Milwaukee I'm sure you won't be spending much time on the North side either.
It's also worth noting Milwaukee's crime rate per capita is actually higher than Chicago's.
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Ms. Dgies and I are thinking seriously about when we become empty nesters, retiring in Milwaukee -- part of the year. Our goal would be to buy a condo on the Lower East Side facing the Lake.
Thing about it gang. In the summer, Milwaukee is unbeatable. The Lakefront is fantastic; the baseball; the festivals; the bars and restaurants; and, the city is very livable and very affordable. Sorry Goose, having those tanning smells gone and far less yeast smell is a good thing!
Contrast it to its gargantuan neighbor where we now live part-year. While we love Chicago, the cost of living there is astronomical and the uncertainty over future costs ridiculous. If you want to go there, great, its 90 minutes away (at most) on Amtrak, or slightly longer than a commute from the northern Lake County suburbs now. People complain about crime in Milwaukee but Chicago is on a different planet.
Try living in downtown's of san Fran, LA or Seattle.
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I don't think Wojo himself would agree with this. I think he is working like a dog every day to fix it. Wojo is not a dumb guy. He knows the results are not good enough. (Yet?)
I agree with this 100%. I don't think Wojo is happy with the results he has obtained. I think the defensive lapses/failures burn his a$$. That said, The results are what they are, and they are not good enough. When fans on a message board essentially agree that there is almost no on court catastrophe that will result in Wojo being gone because the administration has accepted this level of performance, that is not a positive for the future of the program.
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Ms. Dgies and I are thinking seriously about when we become empty nesters, retiring in Milwaukee -- part of the year. Our goal would be to buy a condo on the Lower East Side facing the Lake.
Thing about it gang. In the summer, Milwaukee is unbeatable. The Lakefront is fantastic; the baseball; the festivals; the bars and restaurants; and, the city is very livable and very affordable. Sorry Goose, having those tanning smells gone and far less yeast smell is a good thing!
Contrast it to its gargantuan neighbor where we now live part-year. While we love Chicago, the cost of living there is astronomical and the uncertainty over future costs ridiculous. If you want to go there, great, its 90 minutes away (at most) on Amtrak, or slightly longer than a commute from the northern Lake County suburbs now. People complain about crime in Milwaukee but Chicago is on a different planet.
You already know that we're 'coming home' (although not in the city) after 35 years in Illinois.
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4ever
I agree, with one exception. The crime issue needs to be resolved to match the great improvements done in the city. I do feel that is a major black eye on the city and the one thing holding us back from bigger improvements in the future.
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How are all of you not reported for politics yet?
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I tried to clean this up, but .. just move along, people.