MUScoop

Ya'll all remember Aaron Rodgers a few years back when the Packers were in a supposed tailspin?

It's one game people. You're dealing with 18-22 year-olds who, in many cases, had limited experience in a place like Assembly Hall. Yeah, their play looked liked warmed over barf but, gee, it's one game.

R-E-L-A-X!!!!

If by mid-January we're still having similar concerns, well, then, we do have a problem. But one game does not a season make. There were a couple of instances (one in particular involving Louisville in 1976) during the Al years, where we just scratched our heads and wondered, "what on earth?" It happens with everyone.

So please, stop calling for Wojo's head. At least for now. It really doesn't do anybody any good in November!

Yeah, I wish we had Quentin Grimes too. But we don't. Our guys are who they are and I'll be interested to see if we're still complaining about the same issues after we beat Villanova, Bucky and a host of other teams.

I will not relax.
I am a fan(atic).
I will continue to opine I things I have no knowledge.
When folks call me on it I will repeat it only I will use all CAPS.
If you think for one second I will stop with the ad hominem attacks, you are a fool.
Good day sir.

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 15, 2018, 12:20:55 PM
Ya'll all remember Aaron Rodgers a few years back when the Packers were in a supposed tailspin?

It's one game people. You're dealing with 18-22 year-olds who, in many cases, had limited experience in a place like Assembly Hall. Yeah, their play looked liked warmed over barf but, gee, it's one game.

R-E-L-A-X!!!!

If by mid-January year five we're still having similar concerns, well, then, we do have a problem. But one game does not a season make. There were a couple of instances (one in particular involving Louisville in 1976) during the Al years, where we just scratched our heads and wondered, "what on earth?" It happens with everyone.

So please, stop calling for Wojo's head. At least for now. It really doesn't do anybody any good in November!

Yeah, I wish we had Quentin Grimes too. But we don't. Our guys are who they are and I'll be interested to see if we're still complaining about the same issues after we beat Villanova, Bucky and a host of other teams.

FIFY Says the intelligentsia.

It's  nov - fair.  It's the same bad D, soft play and seemingly bad game prep. So I guess I get the exasperation

dgies
I agree with 95% of your post. But, to throw out a Rodgers and Al comparison is a stretch to me. Pretty sure their body of work trumps Wojo's career to date performance.

Curious, what was Al's instance against Louisville in '76? DePaul I scratched my head, but Louisville is escaping my memory.

Honestly dgies, I think we'll largely 'know' by the time Bucky has been played.  That's 23 days from now.  Now sure, we could turn around a bad start with conference play.  But at some point, you are what you are. 

And the year 5 thing is real.  The honeymoon ended years ago.  So any comparisons to Al and ARodg are a ugggge reach. Champions both.

Quote from: jsglow on November 15, 2018, 12:46:30 PM
Honestly dgies, I think we'll largely 'know' by the time Bucky has been played.  That's 23 days from now.  Now sure, we could turn around a bad start with conference play.  But at some point, you are what you are. 

This.  Especially bc we know (or think) the Big East is down.  If we don't split in NYC and take 2 of 3 from our good home games, we're gonna be in trouble.

Quote from: The Lens on November 15, 2018, 12:59:55 PM
This.  Especially bc we know (or think) the Big East is down.  If we don't split in NYC and take 2 of 3 from our good home games, we're gonna be in trouble.

I think the two most likely losses in the non-con were Kansas and Indiana. Unfortunately Kansas is next so it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 15, 2018, 12:20:55 PM
Ya'll all remember Aaron Rodgers a few years back when the Packers were in a supposed tailspin?

It's one game people. You're dealing with 18-22 year-olds who, in many cases, had limited experience in a place like Assembly Hall. Yeah, their play looked liked warmed over barf but, gee, it's one game.

R-E-L-A-X!!!!

If by mid-January we're still having similar concerns, well, then, we do have a problem. But one game does not a season make. There were a couple of instances (one in particular involving Louisville in 1976) during the Al years, where we just scratched our heads and wondered, "what on earth?" It happens with everyone.

So please, stop calling for Wojo's head. At least for now. It really doesn't do anybody any good in November!

Yeah, I wish we had Quentin Grimes too. But we don't. Our guys are who they are and I'll be interested to see if we're still complaining about the same issues after we beat Villanova, Bucky and a host of other teams.

Love all of this..except we don't have an Aaron Rodger's type player on this roster. If we had a first team all american sit down in a post game press conference and say he'll make sure it doesn't happen again then I might believe it. But that is going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

Aaron Rodgers career has largely been wasted due to his coaching and his team's defense

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 15, 2018, 01:05:38 PM
Love all of this..except we don't have an Aaron Rodger's type player on this roster. If we had a first team all american sit down in a post game press conference and say he'll make sure it doesn't happen again then I might believe it. But that is going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

Does Tebow have BBall eligibility left?

Bullchit, I've seen enough to judge.

Quote from: Otule's Glass Eye on November 15, 2018, 01:08:58 PM
Aaron Rodgers career has largely been wasted due to his coaching and his team's defense

+1

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 15, 2018, 01:14:45 PM
Bullchit, I've seen enough to judge.

I'm with you, Doc. Basta.

4ever and Crash
Count me in. I actually saw enough during Henry's one year at MU.

I think the key thing I took from last night wasn't just that they lost, it was how they lost. Marquette made zero runs in the second half. They brought no energy to start the game or the second half. For the entire game, they only had 8 assists. Everyone blames the defense. I hate to say it, but it's a lot more than just defense. The flow on offense was poor; too much standing around and not enough ball movement. It was literally Sam Hauser and Markus Howard going 1 on 1 for large stretches. You look at how much harder Sam and Markus had to work to get their points vs. a guy like Romeo Langford, who played within the offense but didn't try to do too much.
One thing that will challenge MU the whole year is their lack of playmaking guards. Howard is a great scorer, but he has a shoot first mentality. A lot of MU's other players are catch and shoot scorers (Cain, Anim, Bailey, John, Morrow). These guys score better when assisted but are limited in isolation. Unless guys like Sam or Markus are creating opportunities for them, their impact will be limited.

Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2018, 01:43:39 PM
4ever and Crash
Count me in. I actually saw enough during Henry's one year at MU.

Can you explain this? Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Henry proved to be nothing more than a D-League caliber player in his 3 years with Detroit.

I predict a win against Kansas. Expect nothing less.

Quote from: real chili 83 on November 15, 2018, 02:12:37 PM
I predict a win against Kansas. Expect nothing less.

That would certainly cancel out last night's debacle. 

Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2018, 01:43:39 PM
4ever and Crash
Count me in. I actually saw enough during Henry's one year at MU.

Been in the Wojo doesn't have "it" camp since Year 1, prior to conference play.  Said Buzz had "it," prior to conference play in his Year 1.

Wojo will need elite level talent to win at a consistent level, because he simply doesn't seem to have anything other than "Fight."  "Compete."  "Drive the ball."  "Play downhill." 

Wojo's improved in the sense that he isn't AS kneejerk as he was in Years 1 and 2 with his substitutions, and taking guys out after a miscue, but on the whole he really struggles to manage his roster/personnel and define consistent roles.

Yep, we hit a bump last night and some of us fell off the wagon.  One early game, with a terrible early 10 minute start and we went downhill.  One game, one loss.

Quote from: Loose Cannon on November 15, 2018, 02:38:44 PM

Yep, we hit a bump last night and some of us fell off the wagon.  One early game, with a terrible early 10 minute start and we went downhill.  One game, one loss.

One game in Year 5, now added to an ever growing portfolio of frustratingly similar performances. If Wojo had a couple years of tournaments berths and big time wins on his MU resume, it would be easier to write off the IU game as an outlier. But because it looks so similar to the past 4 years, there is cause for concern.

Wojo's track record versus Aaron Rodgers' track record are vastly different. Rodgers could tell fans to relax because he could point to a history of success; he can tell fans that things will probably still work out to the way they had been the last few years. If things work out for us the way they have the last few years, that's a disappointment and quite honestly, a failure for the season. Things need to be better this year. No more excuses.

Last night was pretty bad for a guy who is in his 5th season at the helm.  I like Wojo and I want it to work but if we lose to KU, KSU, Louisville and don't beat Bucky at home, it's time to move on from this experiment.

last night was one game...no one argues that...the last 5 years has simply produced too many of those games and below average seasons.  i didn't like the coach k. coaching tree when we hired wojo...i like wojo more than i thought i would...i think his recruiting is above average...i think his coaching is below average.  those are just my opinions...the facts are the wins/losses, and i think you have to take emotion out of it.  if we would have laid out the expectations 5 years ago, i think a very modest set of expectations would be a top 25 team this year.  in my opinion, if he can't do that this year, he should be gone (though his contract may say otherwise).  if he can, he stays.  that said...i think he's a good person, good representative of the university, and i sure as hell hope MU ends up being a top 25 team this year. 

Quote from: jutaw22mu on November 15, 2018, 04:02:33 PM
Last night was pretty bad for a guy who is in his 5th season at the helm. 

What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

Jay Wright has earned the right to call a blowout a bump in the road. Wojo isn't there yet. Wright's resume speaks for itself. Wojo's is practically empty at this point.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

I think we'd be giving Wojo a pass on this one if we won the natty last year and lost a Player of the Year PG, as well as 2 underclassmen to the NBA.

It wouldn't be Scoop if people weren't comparing Wojo to Wright.  Let's get it straight once and for all:  Wright didn't make the tournament until his fourth year at Nova.  Wojo made it in his third year at Marquette.  Therefore, Wojo is better than Wright.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 15, 2018, 04:55:18 PM
Jay Wright has earned the right to call a blowout a bump in the road. Wojo isn't there yet. Wright's resume speaks for itself. Wojo's is practically empty at this point.

You can't judge Wojo based on last night's game any more than you can judge him based on the Nova game in 2017.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 05:27:56 PM
You can't judge Wojo based on last night's game any more than you can judge him based on the Nova game in 2017.

I don't think anyone here is judging Wojo based only on last night. They're adding last nights game to a growing list of frustrating and embarrassing games over the last 4 years. He's had plenty of history now at MU for fans to judge.

I judged Wojo on the post 'Nova win in '17.

Wojo can't cary Wright's jockstrap, aina?

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

(https://thewayofimprovement.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/whataboutism.jpg?w=605&h=461)

Quote from: Research Report on November 15, 2018, 05:16:04 PM
It wouldn't be Scoop if people weren't comparing Wojo to Wright.  Let's get it straight once and for all:  Wright didn't make the tournament until his fourth year at Nova.  Wojo made it in his third year at Marquette.  Therefore, Wojo is better than Wright.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

I can't tell if post like this are serious or meant to be funny.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 15, 2018, 07:36:59 PM
I can't tell if post like this are serious or meant to be funny.

+1

Quote from: Research Report on November 15, 2018, 05:16:04 PM
It wouldn't be Scoop if people weren't comparing Wojo to Wright.  Let's get it straight once and for all:  Wright didn't make the tournament until his fourth year at Nova.  Wojo made it in his third year at Marquette.  Therefore, Wojo is better than Wright.

Well done!

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 05:27:56 PM
You can't judge Wojo based on last night's game any more than you can judge him based on the Nova game in 2017.

It appears that games like last night are the general trend and the Nova one in 2017 was an abberation.  I really hope things change but I am not holding my breath anymore.

It's like people forget about Vandy, Ohio St., Florida, Iowa...All of which were at home.

It happens once a year to Marquette without fail. No need to freak out about a loss on the road in the 3rd game of the season.

5th year.  Made the polls for a short two days and out.  Just not even close to being good enough.  That's just me though, I'd prefer to have high expectations.  I refuse to lower my expectations.  Others may feel differently. 

It wuzant just a loss. MU wuz stripped down ta bare ass naked and people laughed at da sight.  Keep weighten four Wojo ta turn da corner, butt he keeps goin' streight. Kinda get da feelin' he's incapable, hey?

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 05:27:56 PM
You can't judge Wojo based on last night's game any more than you can judge him based on the Nova game in 2017.

We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

Quote from: skianth16 on November 15, 2018, 03:40:12 PM
One game in Year 5, now added to an ever growing portfolio of frustratingly similar performances. If Wojo had a couple years of tournaments berths and big time wins on his MU resume, it would be easier to write off the IU game as an outlier. But because it looks so similar to the past 4 years, there is cause for concern.

If we make the Big Dance this year, Does this(Above) go away for you then?

Can't say I'd be happy/content with just a bid. Wojo reached that bar in year 3, then took step back. Feel like we're just spinning our wheels with him

Quote from: Loose Cannon on November 15, 2018, 09:34:30 PM

If we make the Big Dance this year, Does this(Above) go away for you then?

If we make the tournament after having a strong BE season, that would help improve my outlook on Wojo. But if we limp in and get embarrassed like we did 2 years ago, then I don't see my opinion changing. With the talent on this roster, I think most college coaches (maybe even a number of Scoopers!) could earn a bid this year. To me, that's still a pretty low bar.

Quote from: Otule's Glass Eye on November 15, 2018, 01:08:58 PM
Aaron Rodgers career has largely been wasted due to his coaching and his team's defense

How is that any different that Markus?

Just kidding.  The jab was too easy.  Its November.  We whooped up on the cupcakes and got overfed.  A reality check happens pretty often.  At least this wasn't a head scratcher on our home court.  Do you remember Vanderbilt in 2011, Purdue last year?  I get Purdue was ranked, but remember a November blowout is a Marquette tradition.

Quote from: seakm4 on November 15, 2018, 10:26:21 PM
How is that any different that Markus?

Just kidding.  The jab was too easy.  Its November.  We whooped up on the cupcakes and got overfed.  A reality check happens pretty often.  At least this wasn't a head scratcher on our home court.  Do you remember Vanderbilt in 2011, Purdue last year?  I get Purdue was ranked, but remember a November blowout is a Marquette tradition.

I don't think people are upset over just this one loss, I think people are upset because Wojo has never proven that he is able to make the team better over the course of a season than when they started. And in year 5, when the talent level is as high as Wojo has had, a poor showing like this is making me worried that he won't be able to make this team better as the year goes on because of his track record.

Quote from: Loose Cannon on November 15, 2018, 02:38:44 PM

Yep, we hit a bump last night and some of us fell off the wagon.  One early game, with a terrible early 10 minute start and we went downhill.  One game, one loss.

So we DID play downhill after all!

I'm with Seinfeld on this wagon business.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 15, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
What about Jay Wright's performance last night?

Are you f#cking serious? Because this is absurd.

Fr Davitt: False Syllogism

Quote from: jutaw22mu on November 15, 2018, 08:47:09 PM
It appears that games like last night are the general trend and the Nova one in 2017 was an abberation.  I really hope things change but I am not holding my breath anymore.

At least we'll always have the memories. And the t-shirts.

Quote from: Otule's Glass Eye on November 15, 2018, 11:44:29 PM
I don't think people are upset over just this one loss, I think people are upset because Wojo has never proven that he is able to make the team better over the course of a season than when they started. And in year 5, when the talent level is as high as Wojo has had, a poor showing like this is making me worried that he won't be able to make this team better as the year goes on because of his track record.

Exactly....and for those saying "just one game" I'd love to know expectations for any coach given 5 years following Buzz. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

O-U-C-H

Quote from: Otule's Glass Eye on November 15, 2018, 11:44:29 PM
I don't think people are upset over just this one loss, I think people are upset because Wojo has never proven that he is able to make the team better over the course of a season than when they started. And in year 5, when the talent level is as high as Wojo has had, a poor showing like this is making me worried that he won't be able to make this team better as the year goes on because of his track record.

Are you sure about that? Last year we started by beating Lindenwood by 2, getting blown out by Purdue at home, and getting taken to OT by Eastern Illinois. Did you really see a 2 seed in the NIT just based on those early season gems?

In 16-17 we started by getting blown out by Michigan in New York and then blew an 18 point second half lead to a mediocre Pittsburgh team. Did you see an NCAA team just based on those performances? In addition, some mid major transfer named Rowsey was getting 3 minutes and DNPs in early games. By the end of the season he was averaging over 30 minutes a game and was one of our key players.

The main problem with the IU loss is context.    Taken in a vacuum, a MU team badly lost an early season road game, its first of the season, in one of the toughest venues to play in, against an amped up team, a jacked up crowd, and a very good one and done freshman.   Meh.   It happens to lots of teams.
    However, because this loss reinforced existing negative opinions of Wojo, it is somehow seen as more than a November road loss.
If this is a harbinger of the season to come, yes, Wojo's tush is going to start feeling warm.      If it is simply a November road loss for a team that ends up winning 23-4 games and gets a decent seed in the tourney and wins a game there, it is a data point.   

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

Dis says it all folks. Great stuff Lenny Man. Next coach up, aina?

Quote from: skianth16 on November 15, 2018, 09:42:30 PM
If we make the tournament after having a strong BE season, that would help improve my outlook on Wojo. But if we limp in and get embarrassed like we did 2 years ago, then I don't see my opinion changing. With the talent on this roster, I think most college coaches (maybe even a number of Scoopers!) could earn a bid this year. To me, that's still a pretty low bar.

Thanks for your above reply.  So after seeing Wojo's 4 years and 3 games this season what would you Predict (Not Expect) our Win/Loss record to be this year? 

Also if Wojo meets those marks mention above how much does your outlook approve, small percent, medium or large %? 
Again thanks for the discussion.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

Yep, and in those 65 years only one coach beat the number ranked team.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

If you think the Great Midwest is on par with the Big East, then yes we can.

Alright, lets relax on giving Wojo too much credit for beating a #1 team. How many wide open three pointers did Nova miss in that game? 20?

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on November 16, 2018, 09:25:18 AM
Alright, lets relax on giving Wojo too much credit for beating a #1 team. How many wide open three pointers did Nova miss in that game? 20?

So Wojo is supposed to shoulder all of the blame for a loss, but take no credit for a win? Makes sense.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
We've had 10 coaches at Marquette before Wojo over the last 65 years. Wojo has a better record than one of those 10 - Bob Dukiet. Can we judge him on that?

yes, if we can also judge his predecessor for the less than stellar state of the program Wojo stepped into.

Quote from: Loose Cannon on November 16, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
Yep, and in those 65 years only one coach beat the number ranked team.

Who cares?  Should we hang a banner in the Fiserv Forum to commemorate Wojo's crowning achievement thus far?  Here's the track record:

2 Missed NITS
1 NCAA using JJJ, Luke and Duane (Buzz's guys)
1 NIT Quarterfinal
0 NCAA wins

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 16, 2018, 09:43:30 AM
yes, if we can also judge his predecessor for the less than stellar state of the program Wojo stepped into.

Fake News

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean walked into MUCH more difficult situations than Wojo.  Both vastly have exceeded what Wojo has done in 4 years.

What's up with the kid glove treatment some of you give this guy?  He's paid millions.  He's got every tool at his disposal to achieve.  He's accomplished virtually nothing commensurate with the investment made into him and the program.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 16, 2018, 09:26:44 AM
So Wojo is supposed to shoulder all of the blame for a loss, but take no credit for a win? Makes sense.

Where in my post did I say that? The player & coach stunk against Indiana. It's year 5, FIVE.
If it was year 1, 2, or 3 I'd agree with all you Wojo  fans. How many years does he need? 7? 10? We have the same problems now that we had in year 2 & 3.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:48:37 AM
Fake News

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean walked into MUCH more difficult situations than Wojo.  Both vastly have exceeded what Wojo has done in 4 years.

What's up with the kid glove treatment some of you give this guy?  He's paid millions.  He's got every tool at his disposal to achieve.  He's accomplished virtually nothing commensurate with the investment made into him and the program.

Well said.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on November 16, 2018, 09:58:33 AM
Where in my post did I say that? The player & coach stunk against Indiana. It's year 5, FIVE.
If it was year 1, 2, or 3 I'd agree with all you Wojo  fans. How many years does he need? 7? 10? We have the same problems now that we had in year 2 & 3.

And Buzz also had the same problem against Vanderbilt, Ohio St. and Florida. This ain't a anomaly. Marquette pulls this once a year without fail. At least this time they were on the road instead of at home.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:48:37 AM
Fake News

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean walked into MUCH more difficult situations than Wojo.  Both vastly have exceeded what Wojo has done in 4 years.

What's up with the kid glove treatment some of you give this guy?  He's paid millions.  He's got every tool at his disposal to achieve.  He's accomplished virtually nothing commensurate with the investment made into him and the program.

I agree, well stated.

Well I turned the game off when we were down by 15 after the first 5 minutes. We just looked so ill prepared. That is on Wojo. Let's see how we respond to this loss in the coming weeks. I hope Greg can start playing sooner rather than later. We need another option at guard.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:48:37 AM
Fake News

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean walked into MUCH more difficult situations than Wojo.  Both vastly have exceeded what Wojo has done in 4 years.

What's up with the kid glove treatment some of you give this guy? He's paid millions.  He's got every tool at his disposal to achieve.  He's accomplished virtually nothing commensurate with the investment made into him and the program.

I find it puzzling as well. I don't find him to be particularly magnetic or likeable. His brand of basketball is not characteristic of the Warrior brand. And his results have been very uninspiring. I don't get the loyal allegiance

Klassic case of peein' down won's leg, hey?

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 16, 2018, 10:29:34 AM
And Buzz also had the same problem against Vanderbilt, Ohio St. and Florida. This ain't a anomaly. Marquette pulls this once a year without fail. At least this time they were on the road instead of at home.

Buzz also took those teams to the 2nd weekend.

People mistake patience for allegiance. This rebuild was always about this season.  If results aren't delivered patience will return to impatience.

Quote from: 1SE on November 16, 2018, 11:21:19 AM
Buzz also took those teams to the 2nd weekend.

Absolutely. And if Wojo make the tournament comfortably the next two years and make at least one 2nd weekend, I'd bet most people here wouldn't be supporting him anymore.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 16, 2018, 11:45:46 AM
People mistake patience for allegiance. This rebuild was always about this season.  If results aren't delivered patience will return to impatience.

I like this.    I have been patient with Wojo, but I have also criticized him.    This was the 'wait and see' year.     If the IU game is truly who this team is all year,  Wojo is rightfully in trouble.   

Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2018, 11:51:52 AM
I like this.    I have been patient with Wojo, but I have also criticized him.    This was the 'wait and see' year.     If the IU game is truly who this team is all year,  Wojo is rightfully in trouble.   

Could not agree more. Is Langford better than Manion? The reason I ask is that Akanno was able to guard Manion which is why Wojo offered him a scholly. Perhaps we are getting more athletic guards.

Talent on da currant roster is over-raided, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2018, 12:13:07 PM
Talent on da currant roster is over-raided, hey?

Not based on posts since Wednesday.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2018, 12:13:07 PM
Talent on da currant roster is over-raided, hey?

No.   But is it balanced?     I have thought since the end of last year that the weakness of this team would be guard depth.   I hoped (and still do) that Chartouny could come in and distribute the ball and play defense, allowing Markus to play off the ball where, IMO, he is much better.   Elliott getting hurt and Chartouny's slow adjustment has hurt my hope.     Right now, Chartouny as the third guard makes sense.    But he has to start moving the ball quicker and actually make a shot.   Because nobody can make a case right now that there is somebody better waiting on the bench, a la Derrick and Magic Dawson.      Chartouny being what we hoped he would be would make a whole lot of other tumblers fall into place.   

There's plenty to be concerned about here:
Few if any are asking for Wojo to be fired...but we see issues with a team not ready to play and questionable choices. That's coaching.

If we get better but not a lot better then 6-6; 7-5 non-conference is not just possible but predictable.

I'm also concerned about the very beatable Big East. Our conference needs quality wins to become quality wins. don't want us to be that league where nobody deserves an invite.

Certainly there is time. so if RELAX means PATIENCE..then ok, good advice. But a fan has got to be concerned.

Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
The main problem with the IU loss is context.    Taken in a vacuum, a MU team badly lost an early season road game, its first of the season, in one of the toughest venues to play in, against an amped up team, a jacked up crowd, and a very good one and done freshman.   Meh.   It happens to lots of teams.
    However, because this loss reinforced existing negative opinions of Wojo, it is somehow seen as more than a November road loss.
If this is a harbinger of the season to come, yes, Wojo's tush is going to start feeling warm.      If it is simply a November road loss for a team that ends up winning 23-4 games and gets a decent seed in the tourney and wins a game there, it is a data point.   

Yup. Too easy to rush to judgement,  it hard not to be concerned. Would really like to see a year that exceeds my expectations. Just making the tournament isn't good enough this year, but anything higher than an 8-9 seed is in the range of my general expectations and hope for improvement.

Indiana might just be very very good.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 16, 2018, 11:45:46 AM
People mistake patience for allegiance. This rebuild was always about this season.  If results aren't delivered patience will return to impatience.

This is exactly right. Did Indiana suck? Yes. So did Florida. So did Vanderbilt at home. So did Green Bay. So did Dayton. So did North Dakota State, Winthrop, Notre Dame in 2002, and way too often against East Carolina in the CUSA days.

Wojo has had ups and downs. Yes, Buzz players helped in 2017, but so did leading minute player Sam Hauser & leading scorer Markus Howard. Nova in 2017 was fun, but one night, no matter how great, does not a great coach make. The offense is a blast, the defense has been a disaster that was supposed to sort itself this year.

If this Indiana game is a precursor to a season on the bubble or a missed bid altogether, those of us that have been preaching patience will likely start sharpening the machetes. If Indiana is a one-off on the way to a top-3 finish in the league and comfortable NCAA seed where our inclusion is never in doubt and the defense isn't a complete season long sieve, we'll continue to hope for sustained success.

Just because we aren't all going to the mattresses yet doesn't mean we aren't all paying attention to the games, the trends, and the results. And while I don't think it will happen regardless, I think there is a very strong case that if we don't dance this season, Wojo being fired before April 1 should very much be strongly considered.

Quote from: Aughnanure on November 16, 2018, 12:29:46 PM
Indiana might just be very very good.

This is a point that hasn't been discussed much. Most services put the them right around the back of the top 25 preseason. Since then they have been getting some studly performances out of some true freshmen that I doubt many saw coming. They looked like a top 10-15 team to me last night. Could be we just made them look that way. Personally, I think this was a case of one team playing close to their ceiling and one team playing close to their floor.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 16, 2018, 12:38:19 PM
This is a point that hasn't been discussed much. Most services put the them right around the back of the top 25 preseason. Since then they have been getting some studly performances out of some true freshmen that I doubt many saw coming. They looked like a top 10-15 team to me last night. Could be we just made them look that way. Personally, I think this was a case of one team playing close to their ceiling and one team playing close to their floor.

To say the IU game was close to our floor is being pretty optimistic, I think.  Howard and the Hausers led us in scoring, nobody else did stink or even looked like high major talent, there was zero ball movement on O, and the defense was awful.  Based on what we've seen in the first three games and the Wojo era in general, I'd bet Wednesday's performance was less our "floor" and more just how we can expect to look against good competition this year.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on November 16, 2018, 09:25:18 AM
Alright, lets relax on giving Wojo too much credit for beating a #1 team. How many wide open three pointers did Nova miss in that game? 20?

Once in 65 years.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:45:18 AM
Who cares?  Should we hang a banner in the Fiserv Forum to commemorate Wojo's crowning achievement thus far?  Here's the track record:

2 Missed NITS
1 NCAA using JJJ, Luke and Duane (Buzz's guys)
1 NIT Quarterfinal
0 NCAA wins

65 years and it never happen.  I guess most of the fans that rushed the court. and maybe the players who were Dancing on the table, and some who saved their ticket they seem to care.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:48:37 AM
Fake News

.

What's up with the kid glove treatment some of you give this guy?  He's paid millions.  He's got every tool at his disposal to achieve.  He's accomplished virtually nothing commensurate with the investment made into him and the program.

Do you believe the MU Admin agrees with the above statement.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 16, 2018, 09:43:30 AM
yes, if we can also judge his predecessor for the less than stellar state of the program Wojo stepped into.

The erosion of talent at the end under Buzz was NOT Buzz' fault. If Wojo inherited a steaming turd thank Scotty and Larry.

Quote from: Research Report on November 16, 2018, 01:01:24 PM
To say the IU game was close to our floor is being pretty optimistic, I think.  Howard and the Hausers led us in scoring, nobody else did stink or even looked like high major talent, there was zero ball movement on O, and the defense was awful.  Based on what we've seen in the first three games and the Wojo era in general, I'd bet Wednesday's performance was less our "floor" and more just how we can expect to look against good competition this year.

You are entitled to your opinion. I thought the first three games (including exhibition) were very encouraging. Much improved defense and a great offense (not elite like past two years). We looked like a top 30 team should against that level of competition.

Against Indiana I saw mistakes being made on the defensive end that weren't being made in the first three games. I saw Howard reverting back to old habits after two of the best passing games of his career. I saw Sam missing shots that he usually makes in his sleep. I saw mental mistakes like Morrow not boxing out his man on a FT attempt that are easily corrected. We did not play at the same level that we did to start the season.

For me, I've seen three games that say we could be a top 20-40 type team. I've seen one game that says we aren't making the NIT. That tells me the one is probably going to be an outlier on the bell curve by the end of the season but I don't know that. Could be the first three were outliers.

Now, if this phenomenon of only playing at our ceiling against cupcakes and always playing near our floor against quality opponents continues, that is a huge problem.  History tells me that won't be the case. There have been plenty of times under Wojo where he's had our team playing at a high level against quality opponents (Nova, Seton Hall, X, Vandy, etc) and times where he's had them play like crap against crappy opponents (EIU, NIU, Omaha, Fresno State, etc). There's also been plenty of times when the opposite has been true where we've played like crap against quality opponents (Michigan, Iowa, Purdue, Butler, etc) and played at the highest level against little sisters of the poor (American, Chicago State, Western Carolina, etc). Most of the time, the team ends up playing between their floor and ceiling.

Personally, I think by the time this season is done, we will be able to plot all the individual team performances and it will form a nice bell curve. A few games we will look unbeatable. A few games we will look like a low major. Most will fall somewhere in between. If I had to guess right now, I think this Indiana game will be closer to edge of the negative side of the bell curve than it will be to the peak.

Of course if I'm wrong, I'll be sharpening my pitchfork.

Quote from: theBabyDavid on November 16, 2018, 01:38:41 PM
The erosion of talent at the end under Buzz was NOT Buzz' fault. If Wojo inherited a steaming turd thank Scotty and Larry.

They do share a lot of the blame. Not all of it though.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 15, 2018, 09:12:22 PM
It wuzant just a loss. MU wuz stripped down ta bare ass naked and people laughed at da sight.  Keep weighten four Wojo ta turn da corner, butt he keeps goin' streight. Kinda get da feelin' he's incapable, hey?

The emperor has no clothes.

Quote from: theBabyDavid on November 16, 2018, 01:38:41 PM
The erosion of talent at the end under Buzz was NOT Buzz' fault. If Wojo inherited a steaming turd thank Scotty and Larry.

This is probably true to some degree.

I just find it highly amusing that some posters think Wojo should have won right away with that depleted roster.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 15, 2018, 01:03:59 PM
I think the two most likely losses in the non-con were Kansas and Indiana. Unfortunately Kansas is next so it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

I think people are more upset about the way we lost rather than the loss itself. The team's weaknesses were exposed for all to see - no PG and a glaring lack of quickness.

These will haunt us against several teams this year.

Quote from: Jockey on November 16, 2018, 03:22:59 PM

I think people are more upset about the way we lost rather than the loss itself. The team's weaknesses were exposed for all to see - no PG and a glaring lack of quickness.

These will haunt us against several teams this year.

True News.

If MU was competitive and it was a hard fought game and lost per the projection of Pomeroy:  (-4) The level of frustration we are seeing here wouldn't be nearly what exists.  There would be some disappointment, yet, the hope/optimism for a breakout season would seem a lot more likely.

We got our a$$es beat like a drum.  This is Wojo's roster.  It does appear short on high major athleticism.  It will likely result in us being similarly challenged against other athletic high major teams.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 03:40:53 PM
True News.

If MU was competitive and it was a hard fought game and lost per the projection of Pomeroy:  (-4) The level of frustration we are seeing here wouldn't be nearly what exists.  There would be some disappointment, yet, the hope/optimism for a breakout season would seem a lot more likely.

We got our a$$es beat like a drum.  This is Wojo's roster.  It does appear short on high major athleticism.  It will likely result in us being similarly challenged against other athletic high major teams.

I watched the first 8 minutes of the game, then turned it off. It looked like too many games from the Wojo era. Call me fair-weathered, but it was pretty clear at that point that MU had no chance. When I checked later to see the final score, I was hardly surprised.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 16, 2018, 09:48:37 AM
Fake News

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean walked into MUCH more difficult situations than Wojo.  Both vastly have exceeded what Wojo has done in 4 years.

And Al McGuire walked into as difficult a situation as KO and one much more difficult than Wojo.

Quote from: Otule's Glass Eye on November 15, 2018, 01:08:58 PM
Aaron Rodgers career has largely been wasted due to his coaching and his team's defense

Dan Marino 2.0

Marino never got a ring. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 16, 2018, 03:55:16 PM
And Al McGuire walked into as difficult a situation as KO and one much more difficult than Wojo.

Al came in after MU won only 5 games the year before. I doubt Al had much pressure on him.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 16, 2018, 01:42:20 PM
I thought the first three games (including exhibition) were very encouraging. Much improved defense and a great offense (not elite like past two years). We looked like a top 30 team should against that level of competition.

For me, I've seen three games that say we could be a top 20-40 type team.

We looked OK in our first 3 with the exhibition included. I wouldn't call any of the games dominant necessarily, though, regardless of the final scores. Defensive effort was better, but guys were still getting beat off the dribble, and we were still giving up open looks in the second half too often.

In these kinds of games, top 20 teams often win by 40 or more. They get the shots they want, have a few Sports Center type dunks or breakaways, and completely control the pace of the game. I think we had flashes of this, but not 40 minutes worth.

Hopefully we'll see a more complete outing tomorrow.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 16, 2018, 05:50:01 PM
We looked OK in our first 3 with the exhibition included. I wouldn't call any of the games dominant necessarily, though, regardless of the final scores. Defensive effort was better, but guys were still getting beat off the dribble, and we were still giving up open looks in the second half too often.

In these kinds of games, top 20 teams often win by 40 or more. They get the shots they want, have a few Sports Center type dunks or breakaways, and completely control the pace of the game. I think we had flashes of this, but not 40 minutes worth.

Hopefully we'll see a more complete outing tomorrow.

You have impossibly high standards for what you expect this team to be. Guys getting beat off the dribble??  Holy crap, the best defenders in the world get beat off the dribble constantly.  Giving up open looks in the 2nd half up 20 points?  Yeah, that never happens with good teams. 

I think with those standards you are always going to be disappointed.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 16, 2018, 07:43:08 PM
You have impossibly high standards for what you expect this team to be. Guys getting beat off the dribble??  Holy crap, the best defenders in the world get beat off the dribble constantly.  Giving up open looks in the 2nd half up 20 points?  Yeah, that never happens with good teams. 

I think with those standards you are always going to be disappointed.

I think you missed the words "too often" in my post.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 16, 2018, 07:54:45 PM
I think you missed the words "too often" in my post.

I didn't. Teams up 20-30 points are going to give up open looks. The outcomes of the games were never in doubt. You are complaining for the sake of complaining.

Quote from: bilsu on November 16, 2018, 05:15:43 PM
Al came in after MU won only 5 games the year before. I doubt Al had much pressure on him.

I wasn't talking about "pressure" (nor was Slapper). We were talking about how low the program had sank when different coaches took over. When Al took over (to your point, 5 wins the previous year) the was little on the roster and nobody wanted to come to MU. He turned that ship around very quickly.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 16, 2018, 08:01:16 PM
I wasn't talking about "pressure" (nor was Slapper). We were talking about how low the program had sank when different coaches took over. When Al took over (to your point, 5 wins the previous year) the was little on the roster and nobody wanted to come to MU. He turned that ship around very quickly.

He certainly did. I think our current experiment is proving that the same stale results are what we can expect. Frankly, the mediocrity is getting old.

I remember coming down the vator in McCormick on Tuesday mornings where the staff would post the newly released Top 25 AP and UPI rankings. We were genuinely upset to be ranked 3 or 4.

The loss to Miami of Ohio changed all of that. Damn that ref. Damn Al for pushing Hank. Goddam Denny Crum was begging for the job.

Buzz left and Wojo took over. Buzz looks like he will be on his way to a third straight NCAA tourney this season coaching the Hokies. Wojo still trying to figure it out. Big year for Wojo imo. Let's hope he has the chops to get it done.

Quote from: jonny09 on November 15, 2018, 09:10:04 PM
5th year.  Made the polls for a short two days and out.  Just not even close to being good enough.  That's just me though, I'd prefer to have high expectations.  I refuse to lower my expectations.  Others may feel differently.

Last year when you were upset you said we would only win 5 Big East games.....we won almost double with 9.  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54996.msg967827#msg967827

You may be right about this team, there is plenty to be concerned with.  It's a guards game, and we have trouble at the guard position currently which leaves me concerned.  It's also very early, let's see what happens over the next few weeks.

Quote from: Cheeks on November 25, 2018, 03:34:34 PM
Last year when you were upset you said we would only win 5 Big East games.....we won almost double with 9.  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54996.msg967827#msg967827

You may be right about this team, there is plenty to be concerned with.  It's a guards game, and we have trouble at the guard position currently which leaves me concerned.  It's also very early, let's see what happens over the next few weeks.

Chicos, go spend some time with your family and RE-LAX. All these wojo posts are a little desperate. It's just a game bub.

Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 25, 2018, 04:03:59 PM
Chicos, go spend some time with your family and RE-LAX. All these wojo posts are a little desperate. It's just a game bub.

I agree. It's still early in the year and you just gotta believe the process. They are a good team, and every team has their lows. I would rather MU have their lows early in the year than later, so they have a bunch of momentum when they make the Turny.

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 17, 2018, 12:00:49 PM

Buzz left and Wojo took over. Buzz looks like he will be on his way to a third straight NCAA tourney this season coaching the Hokies. Wojo still trying to figure it out. Big year for Wojo imo. Let's hope he has the chops to get it done.

Hope he does, but reality says he likely doesn't.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 26, 2018, 06:01:13 PM
Hope he does, but reality says he likely doesn't.

Mazos weighing in is the moral equivalent of the fat lady singing.

It's time to admit: we have now entered the Nomo Wojo Zone.

https://sports.yahoo.com/first-loss-coach-k-wants-duke-fans-calm-hype-criticism-172612502.html


Coach K calling out a certain subset of the Duke fanbase, telling them to lay off RJ Barrett and to accept the fact that 4 freshmen are going to need room to grow.   

Quote from: tower912 on November 28, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/first-loss-coach-k-wants-duke-fans-calm-hype-criticism-172612502.html


Coach K calling out a certain subset of the Duke fanbase, telling them to lay off RJ Barrett and to accept the fact that 4 freshmen are going to need room to grow.

I'm just glad MU doesn't have these types of fans.

(OH NO!! CUE "WOJO ISNT COACH K" comments... but what I'm saying is we have new moving parts also that need to get acclimated.)

Quote from: bilsu on November 16, 2018, 05:15:43 PM
Al came in after MU won only 5 games the year before. I doubt Al had much pressure on him.

Al walked into a situation where the team was on life support. We did not have one of the biggest budgets in college basketball and had only been 10 years removed from our first NCAA appearance. He basically took a mid-major program (and that's being generous) and made us an NCAA powerhouse.

By contrast, Wojo came into a situation with three distinct fanbases -- one that wanted a return to the Al days; a second that had a taste of success in either Tom Crean or the Hillbilly and saw no reason for us not to be very good; and, an apathetic base schooled in the experiences of Coaches Dean and Dukiet. Given that Coach Wojo is a Dukie and knew what it meant to win on a big-stage, two of those three fan bases were excited and expected far more than we have experienced.

Wojo needs to figure this year out and fast. K-State will be a huge game for this team. At home against a quality opponent, we'll see if we can get there. If we stumble now and throughout the season, many of us who care will, as others have said, be lighting a fire under his seat. But that's in April, not now.

Quote from: tower912 on November 28, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/first-loss-coach-k-wants-duke-fans-calm-hype-criticism-172612502.html


Coach K calling out a certain subset of the Duke fanbase, telling them to lay off RJ Barrett and to accept the fact that 4 freshmen are going to need room to grow.

Good for him. Showing a freshman who will be a key player in your march to the National Championship that the coach has your back is smart. If we were #1 this board would (justifiably) ostracize anyone coming down on a freshman 5 games in - as K says, they're spoiled. We're (sadly) not. Still, I agree that with a transfer and two freshmen being among our keys a little patience with the 2018-19 Warriors is appropriate. OTOH, it's year 5, so the natives are understandably a little restless.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2018, 09:02:42 PM
Good for him. Showing a freshman who will be a key player in your march to the National Championship that the coach has your back is smart. If we were #1 this board would (justifiably) ostracize anyone coming down on a freshman 5 games in - as K says, they're spoiled. We're (sadly) not. Still, I agree that with a transfer and two freshmen being among our keys a little patience with the 2018-19 Warriors is appropriate. OTOH, it's year 5, so the natives are understandably a little restless.

Must've missed the new rankings.

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 28, 2018, 08:44:55 PM
Al walked into a situation where the team was on life support. We did not have one of the biggest budgets in college basketball and had only been 10 years removed from our first NCAA appearance. He basically took a mid-major program (and that's being generous) and made us an NCAA powerhouse.

By contrast, Wojo came into a situation with three distinct fanbases -- one that wanted a return to the Al days; a second that had a taste of success in either Tom Crean or the Hillbilly and saw no reason for us not to be very good; and, an apathetic base schooled in the experiences of Coaches Dean and Dukiet. Given that Coach Wojo is a Dukie and knew what it meant to win on a big-stage, two of those three fan bases were excited and expected far more than we have experienced.

Wojo needs to figure this year out and fast. K-State will be a huge game for this team. At home against a quality opponent, we'll see if we can get there. If we stumble now and throughout the season, many of us who care will, as others have said, be lighting a fire under his seat. But that's in April, not now.

Al also walked in with only 150 D1 schools, no Big East, very little television, players rarely transferred, a Wisconsin program that wasn't very good, 15 scholarships, etc  I loved the guy... worked with him for several years.  Best coach we ever had.

350 D1 schools now, television has made also rans into power programs, kids move from schools at breakneck frequency, Wisconsin is a major player for regional talent, independents don't exist any longer, scholarship limits have spread the talent around, etc.

Eras are totally different now.  Al saw that and one of the reasons he got out when he did.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 28, 2018, 10:58:05 PM
Must've missed the new rankings.

Go ahead and use the writers or the coaches. I'll stick with Pomeroy - they saw what I saw last year and knew Xavier was a fraud as a #1 seed. Some here couldn't see past the almighty polls. LOL.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Go ahead and use the writers or the coaches. I'll stick with Pomeroy - they saw what I saw last year and knew Xavier was a fraud as a #1 seed. Some here couldn't see past the almighty polls. LOL.

A fraud #1 seed? Uhh. They were 28-5 and won the Big East. Talk about LOL. Where would you have seeded Xavier then? Was UVA a fraud #1 seed?

And you'll go with Duke over the undefeated team that beat them on a neutral court while missing their leading returning scorer from last season/second best player? Got it. Don't need an almighty poll. It literally played out on a basketball court. LOL.

Quote from: Cheeks on November 28, 2018, 11:28:51 PM
Al also walked in with only 150 D1 schools.

Which of the "new 200" D1 teams are the powerhouses? How are they standing in our way? During Al's era we were surpassed only by UCLA and on equal footing with UNC. We were better than Duke, Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas and every other D1 program. Why? Because Al was head and shoulders better than the guys he was going up against. I'll grant you there are more challenges for little catholic schools today than there were in the late 60s and the 70s, but Al (like Jay Wright today) would have been up to the task. No doubt in my mind.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 28, 2018, 11:49:08 PM
A fraud #1 seed? Uhh. They were 28-5 and won the Big East. Talk about LOL. Where would you have seeded Xavier then? Was UVA a fraud #1 seed?

I would have given them a #2 because their record demanded it. But as I told you repeatedly as you sang their praises, they were an obvious short in the tournament. Pomeroy and Sagerin's numbers confirmed what I saw with my own 2 eyes - they were a 4 or 5 seed who had lots of luck during the season.

UVA? They've been a fraud seed just about every year under Bennett. Maybe he gets them too tight, maybe they're short athletes, maybe their style doesn't translate to the tournament in 2018 - but anytime as a #1 you get embarrassed by 20 (I guess they would have lost by 60+ if they played at Duke's pace, LOL) by a #16 in your season's most important game - yeah, you're a fraud.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 28, 2018, 11:49:08 PM

And you'll go with Duke over the undefeated team that beat them on a neutral court while missing their leading returning scorer from last season/second best player? Got it. Don't need an almighty poll. It literally played out on a basketball court. LOL.

I think Duke would beat Gonzaga 6 times out of 10 now. When those 4 freshmen get 30+ games under their belts in March when the game really matter my guess is that number is more like 8 of 10.

Just my opinion, of course - but that team that was up 25 at halftime vs IU and beat Kentucky by 40+ is (by a pretty wide margin) the most talented team around. Pomeroy and Las Vegas concur.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 12:31:35 AM
I think Duke would beat Gonzaga 6 times out of 10 now. When those 4 freshmen get 30+ games under their belts in March when the game really matter my guess is that number is more like 8 of 10.

Just my opinion, of course - but that team that was up 25 at halftime vs IU and beat Kentucky by 40+ is (by a pretty wide margin) the most talented team around. Pomeroy and Las Vegas concur.

Fair enough.  If we can ignore actual results and talk about a hypothetical 9 other games two teams will never play, I think we'd beat Indiana 9 out of 10 times and Kansas 9 out of 10 times, so to me Marquette is really the #2 in the country right now.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 07:56:02 AM
Fair enough.  If we can ignore actual results and talk about a hypothetical 9 other games two teams will never play, I think we'd beat Indiana 9 out of 10 times and Kansas 9 out of 10 times, so to me Marquette is really the #2 in the country right now.

SO if 9/10 we beat Depaul last year does that mean that I can say we went to the NCAA tournament last year too?

Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 29, 2018, 08:00:04 AM
SO if 9/10 we beat Depaul last year does that mean that I can say we went to the NCAA tournament last year too?

I think that's how it works.

But keep in mind, we actually went 1-3 at best, most likely 0-4, against Creighton and Xavier because they didn't have their starting PGs the year we went to the NCAA Tournament, so we actually missed the NCAA Tournament that year.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 08:07:41 AM
I think that's how it works.

But keep in mind, we actually went 1-3 at best, most likely 0-4, against Creighton and Xavier because they didn't have their starting PGs the year we went to the NCAA Tournament, so we actually missed the NCAA Tournament that year.

Not to mention we also lose to villanova now.

But that begs the question do our now wins against depaul and belmont three years ago get us into the tournament?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 12:31:35 AM
I think Duke would beat Gonzaga 6 times out of 10 now. When those 4 freshmen get 30+ games under their belts in March when the game really matter my guess is that number is more like 8 of 10.

Just my opinion, of course - but that team that was up 25 at halftime vs IU and beat Kentucky by 40+ is (by a pretty wide margin) the most talented team around. Pomeroy and Las Vegas concur.

I'm surprised anyone would argue with this. Watching Duke play, it's hard to imagine anyone being able to hang with them by March, even if they have some hiccups along the way.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 29, 2018, 08:40:32 AM
I'm surprised anyone would argue with this. Watching Duke play, it's hard to imagine anyone being able to hang with them by March, even if they have some hiccups along the way.

Well I guess one way someone could argue with it is they saw the (actual) #1 team in the country actually play Duke in a basketball game without their 2nd best player and beat Duke.  That could be one way?

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 08:53:54 AM
Well I guess one way someone could argue with it is they saw the (actual) #1 team in the country actually play Duke in a basketball game without their 2nd best player and beat Duke.  That could be one way?

Still feel Duke isn't a lock for the Sweet 16?

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 08:53:54 AM
Well I guess one way someone could argue with it is they saw the (actual) #1 team in the country actually play Duke in a basketball game without their 2nd best player and beat Duke.  That could be one way?

He acknowledged that Gonzaga would win 4 of 10. And we saw them win the one they played. The point that Duke would win more of these matchups is pretty straightforward. You can't think that because Gonzaga won 1 game than they would win 100% of the time if they played multiple games per year.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 09:20:40 AM
Still feel Duke isn't a lock for the Sweet 16?

No one is a lock for the Sweet 16. Just ask Virginia, Xavier, Cincinnati, North Carolina, Tennessee, Michigan State, Arizona, Wichita State, and Auburn. 9/16 of the teams that by seed were favored to go to the Sweet 16 didn't make it last season.

Now if the question is do you think Duke is a lock to get a 4 seed or better? I would say yes barring catastrophic injuries. Hell, I might even say they are a lock for a 1 seed barring catastrophic injuries.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 29, 2018, 09:55:12 AM
No one is a lock for the Sweet 16. Just ask Virginia, Xavier, Cincinnati, North Carolina, Tennessee, Michigan State, Arizona, Wichita State, and Auburn. 9/16 of the teams that by seed were favored to go to the Sweet 16 didn't make it last season.

Now if the question is do you think Duke is a lock to get a 4 seed or better? I would say yes barring catastrophic injuries. Hell, I might even say they are a lock for a 1 seed barring catastrophic injuries.

Friendly wager of $100 that Duke makes the Sweet 16?  Yes - I'm offering this right now despite all of the time left for your hypotheticals to play out - injuries, unknown seed, bracket, etc.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 09:58:39 AM
Friendly wager of $100 that Duke makes the Sweet 16?  Yes - I'm offering this right now despite all of the time left for your hypotheticals to play out - injuries, unknown seed, bracket, etc.

I'm a state employee, there's nothing friendly about $100 for me

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 12:21:26 AMI would have given them a #2 because their record demanded it.

Then who gets the 1 over the 28-5 Big East Champs that had zero losses to non-tournament teams? A 7-loss Duke team that didn't win their conference regular season or tournament with two losses (BC & St. John's) to non-tourney teams? A Cincinnati team that was double-champs of a notably worse conference, lost head-to-head to Xavier, & had two top-50 wins to Xavier's eight? A 28-6 Purdue team that didn't win their conference regular season or tournament, also with two losses (Western Kentucky & Wisconsin) to non-tourney teams? Or a UNC team with a 25-10 record, including non-tournament Wofford?

I don't disagree that the advanced metrics didn't scream 1-seed, but Xavier's resume absolutely did. All the 2-seeds behind them had significant holes in their resumes that Xavier simply didn't have. Had Providence or Arizona State missed the tournament, had Villanova gone 16-2 to edge Xavier for the conference regular season title, or had X not been so lucky (10-1 in games decided by 2 possessions or fewer) then maybe you could make a case for someone else, but when you stack them up resume against resume, Xavier was clearly the fourth 1-seed. I really don't think there's any disputing it.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Go ahead and use the writers or the coaches. I'll stick with Pomeroy - they saw what I saw last year and knew Xavier was a fraud as a #1 seed. Some here couldn't see past the almighty polls. LOL.

If Xavier was a fraud then what was UNC? Cincinnati?

Upsets happen. Xavier blew that game. If they don't then they probably go to the E8 or F4

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 07:56:02 AM
Fair enough.  If we can ignore actual results and talk about a hypothetical 9 other games two teams will never play, I think we'd beat Indiana 9 out of 10 times and Kansas 9 out of 10 times, so to me Marquette is really the #2 in the country right now.

Impossible to argue with stupid. You win.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 29, 2018, 08:40:32 AM
I'm surprised anyone would argue with this. Watching Duke play, it's hard to imagine anyone being able to hang with them by March, even if they have some hiccups along the way.

Some people are stubborn. Good news? If they'll gamble, stubborn people can make you a lot of money.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2018, 10:49:59 AM
Then who gets the 1 over the 28-5 Big East Champs that had zero losses to non-tournament teams? A 7-loss Duke team that didn't win their conference regular season or tournament with two losses (BC & St. John's) to non-tourney teams? A Cincinnati team that was double-champs of a notably worse conference, lost head-to-head to Xavier, & had two top-50 wins to Xavier's eight? A 28-6 Purdue team that didn't win their conference regular season or tournament, also with two losses (Western Kentucky & Wisconsin) to non-tourney teams? Or a UNC team with a 25-10 record, including non-tournament Wofford?

I don't disagree that the advanced metrics didn't scream 1-seed, but Xavier's resume absolutely did. All the 2-seeds behind them had significant holes in their resumes that Xavier simply didn't have. Had Providence or Arizona State missed the tournament, had Villanova gone 16-2 to edge Xavier for the conference regular season title, or had X not been so lucky (10-1 in games decided by 2 possessions or fewer) then maybe you could make a case for someone else, but when you stack them up resume against resume, Xavier was clearly the fourth 1-seed. I really don't think there's any disputing it.

Especially since three of the #2 seeds lost prior to the Elite 8.

Arguing that Xavier shouldn't have received a #1 seed last year is pretty dumb. 

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 10:55:51 AM
If Xavier was a fraud then what was UNC? Cincinnati?

Upsets happen. Xavier blew that game. If they don't then they probably go to the E8 or F4

Mack's impending departure likely had a lot to do with X stumbling last year in the tourney. From what I've heard that team and the coaches were very tight at tourney time last year because many knew (or at least strongly suspected) it was the last chance with Mack at X to get to the Final Four. It makes sense, because they played very uncharacteristically-panic set in early for a very experienced and typically clutch team.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 01:19:31 PM
Impossible to argue with stupid. You win.

I just did argue with stupid.  Stupid argues that the undefeated team that controlled a game without their second best player and took a win on a neutral court does not deserve to be ranked #1 over the team they just beat.

Who's your 1 seed over Xavier last year?

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 09:58:39 AM
Friendly wager of $100 that Duke makes the Sweet 16?  Yes - I'm offering this right now despite all of the time left for your hypotheticals to play out - injuries, unknown seed, bracket, etc.

Your obsession with polls/bets on a one-and-done tournament result is baffling.

I'm curious as to whether Ners would prefer Marquette finish the year 26-5, get a 2 seed, and lose to  7 seed in the 2nd round. Or finish 20-11 but win 2 games, make the S16 and come up one possession short of the elite 8.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 04:50:10 PM
I'm curious as to whether Ners would prefer Marquette finish the year 26-5, get a 2 seed, and lose to  7 seed in the 2nd round. Or finish 20-11 but win 2 games, make the S16 and come up one possession short of the elite 8.

He would complain regardless

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 10:55:51 AM
If Xavier was a fraud then what was UNC? Cincinnati?

Upsets happen. Xavier blew that game. If they don't then they probably go to the E8 or F4

Xavier was a good team with incredible luck - luckiest team in any of the power conferences per Pomeroy. Going into the tournament Pomeroy had them as the 15th best team, Sagerin had them 16th. Their luck was due to run out and it did vs Providence in the Big East semis and vs FSU in round 2 of the tournament.

What seed did they deserve? I guess their record says a #1 or a #2 behind Duke. But they weren't that good.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 05:08:08 PM
Xavier was a good team with incredible luck - luckiest team in any of the power conferences per Pomeroy. Going into the tournament Pomeroy had them as the 15th best team, Sagerin had them 16th. Their luck was due to run out and it did vs Providence in the Big East semis and vs FSU in round 2 of the tournament.

What seed did they deserve? I guess their record says a #1 or a #2 behind Duke. But they weren't that good.

I agree with this. I just don't think that them losing to FSU validates your opinion when teams like UNC, Cincy, UVA all lost in the first two rounds and teams like Purdue and Michigan were one shot away from doing the same.

And I don't think Xavier winning 4 straight close games to reach the F4 would have invalidated your opinion, either. Judging a year based on NCAA performance is typically not a great idea either way.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 05:08:08 PMWhat seed did they deserve? I guess their record says a #1 or a #2 behind Duke. But they weren't that good.

I think Duke is the only possible argument, but against very similar overall schedules (Pomeroy had Duke #30 SOS & Xavier #35) the Blue Devils lost two more games, and had two losses to non-tournament teams.

Saying Xavier was overrated is fine, and the luck difference in two possession games definitely pushed them over the top (10-1 for XU, 2-6 for Duke) but at the end of the day, resumes are built on results, and Xavier had better results than Duke by an obvious margin & than any other 2-seed by a wide margin.

It's possible for Xavier to both deserve their 1-seed and have been overrated. I think it's perfectly fair to say with the clarity of hindsight that both were true.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2018, 05:26:41 PM

It's possible for Xavier to both deserve their 1-seed and have been overrated. I think it's perfectly fair to say with the clarity of hindsight that both were true.

Fair.

But last year (without hindsight) when I pointed out X was overrated, Wades said no way no how.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 06:27:36 PM
Fair.

But last year (without hindsight) when I pointed out X was overrated, Wades said no way no how.

They weren't. And the season proved that out as you shifted your goalposts. They deserved to be ranked in the top 4 and they were.

Unless you think Loyola Chicago should've been ranked somewhere in the top 4?

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 04:50:10 PM
I'm curious as to whether Ners would prefer Marquette finish the year 26-5, get a 2 seed, and lose to  7 seed in the 2nd round. Or finish 20-11 but win 2 games, make the S16 and come up one possession short of the elite 8.

I actually think he'd prefer us to go 5-26. That way wojo (who he and others disliked before the hire was even announced) will be fired and Ners can gloat about his opinion being fulfilled.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 06:41:50 PM
They weren't. And the season proved that out as you shifted your goalposts. They deserved to be ranked in the top 4 and they were.

Unless you think Loyola Chicago should've been ranked somewhere in the top 4?

Are you a flat earther? Every advanced stat there is screams overrated. Sheesh. You are one thick, stubborn guy.

What advanced stats say Loyola was a top 4 team? None of course. But keep shifting. LOL.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
Are you a flat earther? Every advanced stat there is screams overrated. Sheesh. You are one thick, stubborn guy.

What advanced stats say Loyola was a top 4 team? None of course. But keep shifting. LOL.

Says the guy who went from "we'll see what they're seeded come March!" To "they were overrated and that's why they didn't make the FF."

You can claim they didn't deserve a one seed or they didn't deserve to be ranked in the top five. You're wrong. But you can keep telling yourself that a 1 and done tournament is proof. Because Loyola was top 5 team in the country.

And you can claim Duke deserves to be ranked 1 by the "almighty polls" despite losing to an undefeated team on a neutral court that was missing their second best player. Again, you are wrong. But it's pretty clear nobody is going to stop you from making a fool of yourself. I'm glad you trust in an algorithm more than you trust in the result of a real live basketball game though.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 07:24:53 PM
Says the guy who went from "we'll see what they're seeded come March!" To "they were overrated and that's why they didn't make the FF."

You can claim they didn't deserve a one seed or they didn't deserve to be ranked in the top five. You're wrong. But you can keep telling yourself that a 1 and done tournament is proof. Because Loyola was top 5 team in the country.

And you can claim Duke deserves to be ranked 1 by the "almighty polls" despite losing to an undefeated team on a neutral court that was missing their second best player. Again, you are wrong. But it's pretty clear nobody is going to stop you from making a fool of yourself. I'm glad you trust in an algorithm more than you trust in the result of a real live basketball game though.

1960 just called to say thanks.

It is fair to say that Xavier was not a strong #1 seed.    However, it is also fair to say there weren't any other teams that could make a more compelling argument.     So, IMO, it is fair to say that Xavier was a #1 seed by default. 

Quote from: wadesworld on November 29, 2018, 07:24:53 PM

"they were overrated and that's why they didn't make the FF."

Totally made up quote (liar) which totally misses the point (over your head).

Keep digging.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 07:51:25 PM
Totally made up quote (liar) which totally misses the point (over your head).

Keep digging.

Digging? No need. You literally said they weren't a top 10 team in the country and tried to get people to bet you that they didn't finish with a top 2 seed in the NCAA Tournament. You got it wrong big guy. But keep digging in on it.

Wades and Lenny:

Thursday I was reading Scoop and the bet you made with the loser self-banning for a year.

At that point I thought about suggesting you reduce the bet, because I thought you both added good insight to the board, but was busy with turkey stuff and did not get back online.

After reading the last page or two of this thread, I realized how much I enjoyed the turkey.

Quote from: Archies Bat on November 29, 2018, 08:03:58 PM
Wades and Lenny:

Thursday I was reading Scoop and the bet you made with the loser self-banning for a year.

At that point I thought about suggesting you reduce the bet, because I thought you both added good insight to the board, but was busy with turkey stuff and did not get back online.

After reading the last page or two of this thread, I realized how much I enjoyed the turkey.

Funny (and accurate). Apologies, Archie. I'm officially done - when a guy starts "quoting" you with things you never said it's past time to quit the back and forth.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 08:32:10 PM
Funny (and accurate). Apologies, Archie. I'm officially done - when a guy starts "quoting" you with things you never said it's past time to quit the back and forth.

No  apologies necessary.  Welcome home.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 29, 2018, 04:40:30 PM

Your obsession with polls/bets on a one-and-done tournament result is baffling.

Obsession?  Nah.  I just like getting down to the nuts and bolts.  How people vote, and/or are willing to "invest" their money, speaks to their level of conviction/confidence.  The Intelligencia here vacillate on the regular, and have a great habit of couching things with multiple caveats etc.

P.S. - The bet offer also is extended to you - I've got Duke in the Sweet 16, and Marquette not:  $100 each?

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 04:50:10 PM
I'm curious as to whether Ners would prefer Marquette finish the year 26-5, get a 2 seed, and lose to  7 seed in the 2nd round. Or finish 20-11 but win 2 games, make the S16 and come up one possession short of the elite 8.

Would take the 20-11 scenario, every single year over the 2 seed/26-5 scenario.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 08:59:40 PM
Would take the 20-11 scenario, every single year over the 2 seed/26-5 scenario.

I respect your opinion but honestly do not understand it. A team that's a 10 seed that makes the S16 has far more flaws than the 2 seed that plays one bad game at the wrong time. To each their own.

The regular season vs. postseason success is an interesting and great question. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer. For me, I would definitely enjoy the 11 seed making the Sweet 16 more, but I think the 2 seed losing in the round of 32 means the team had a better season. Gun to my head I think I take the 2 seed that loses early. As much as the fans enjoy a Sweet 16 appearance, I don't think it does much for your program. No one remembers who made the Sweet 16 in a given year. But I do think winning and being consistently good throughout a season helps build your program. Now an 11 seed that makes the Final Four? I would pick that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not sure about Elite Eight.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 29, 2018, 11:04:54 PM
The regular season vs. postseason success is an interesting and great question. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer. For me, I would definitely enjoy the 11 seed making the Sweet 16 more, but I think the 2 seed losing in the round of 32 means the team had a better season. Gun to my head I think I take the 2 seed that loses early. As much as the fans enjoy a Sweet 16 appearance, I don't think it does much for your program. No one remembers who made the Sweet 16 in a given year. But I do think winning and being consistently good throughout a season helps build your program. Now an 11 seed that makes the Final Four? I would pick that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not sure about Elite Eight.

It's really hard to calibrate expectations and how wildly different they are for some programs, and it's hard to get out of the mindset that the postseason is the only thing that matters. In the NFL - a league built with parity in mind, it's understandable a fan believes it's Super Bowl or bust. In baseball, we need to recognize that a successful season means something very different depending on your market.

Everyone wants to win a championship or compete for it, but that realistically is not every NCAA teams ceiling. And in a postseason like the NCAA, where they don't do reseeding, winning 5 straight games with the randomness involved does not always result in the best team winning it all.

I would always take the final 4 and the feeling of being SO CLOSE over a strong regular season and an early exit. And in general, I think I'd irrationally gravitate toward postseason success...there aren't so many games in a season where you can 'enjoy the ride' as easily as MLB or NBA, which factors into the postseason taking on a greater - albeit a bit unrational - importance

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 09:20:40 AM
Still feel Duke isn't a lock for the Sweet 16?

UVA was a lock for Sweet 16 last year according to everybody not named UMBC

Quote from: skianth16 on November 29, 2018, 08:40:32 AM
I'm surprised anyone would argue with this. Watching Duke play, it's hard to imagine anyone being able to hang with them by March, even if they have some hiccups along the way.

I remember this kind of talk in the 90's with UNLV....a virtual guarantee to win it all.....but they didn't.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2018, 12:00:52 AM
Which of the "new 200" D1 teams are the powerhouses? How are they standing in our way? During Al's era we were surpassed only by UCLA and on equal footing with UNC. We were better than Duke, Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas and every other D1 program. Why? Because Al was head and shoulders better than the guys he was going up against. I'll grant you there are more challenges for little catholic schools today than there were in the late 60s and the 70s, but Al (like Jay Wright today) would have been up to the task. No doubt in my mind.

Some years we were, some we weren't. We beat IU once in that period.  Our winning percentage was #2 back then, but we also were an Independent which helped that record a bit.  Remember that for some time only conference champs went to the tournament, meaning some insanely good  teams didn't...independents didn't have to deal with that restriction.

It isn't a matter of the new 200 schools, the point is with television schools that weren't powers now are.  Gonzaga being one of the more obvious ones.  Xavier was a running joke prior to the 1990's.  Butler isn't a power, but again a program that was a complete also ran prior to the Video age.  Arizona another one.

Back in Al's day the talent was horded by less teams with more scholarships.  Today the talent is spread out and available to many schools due to less scholarships and the ease by which families, etc can watch junior play.  The elite teams back in Al's day May have been better than today, at least among their peer set.   

This argument about the sweet 16 vs early exit plus regular season success is so stupid. I struggle to believe many fans would take Jimmys senior year over say the 08-09 team (pre James' injury). One we were running through opponents, ranked in the top 10 and got to see four of MU's all time greats crush it (5 if you count jimmy not crushing it). The other we were receiving a couple votes occasionally and had a close loss to just about everybody and figured we were due for another quick exit.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 29, 2018, 08:58:10 PM
Obsession?  Nah.  I just like getting down to the nuts and bolts.  How people vote, and/or are willing to "invest" their money, speaks to their level of conviction/confidence.  The Intelligencia here vacillate on the regular, and have a great habit of couching things with multiple caveats etc.

P.S. - The bet offer also is extended to you - I've got Duke in the Sweet 16, and Marquette not:  $100 each?

Again, dumb. Want to bet seed or total win? That's far more of an accurate assessment of a team. Results in a one loss tournament is too much relying on luck/chance

Edit: I have confidence in Marquette. In terms of chances of making the S16, I would have more confidence in Duke over Marquette. But I still wouldn't bet on Duke, Kansas, Gonzaga or Kentucky as a S16 team. Nothing to do with confidence. Everything to do with a poor bet

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2018, 04:16:18 AM
Again, dumb. Want to bet seed or total win? That's far more of an accurate assessment of a team. Results in a one loss tournament is too much relying on luck/chance

Edit: I have confidence in Marquette. In terms of chances of making the S16, I would have more confidence in Duke over Marquette. But I still wouldn't bet on Duke, Kansas, Gonzaga or Kentucky as a S16 team. Nothing to do with confidence. Everything to do with a poor bet

All about matchups and any team can have a bad day.

The way I see it, making S16 is becoming more and more difficult. Having a program that year in and year out capable, or expected, to make S16 is my standard. The game has changed so much over the past decade that even top seeds struggle to advance in March. Being a seed with higher expectations is the goal, and being in position to advance is how I judge programs.

Quote from: Goose on November 30, 2018, 09:07:28 AM
The way I see it, making S16 is becoming more and more difficult. Having a program that year in and year out capable, or expected, to make S16 is my standard. The game has changed so much over the past decade that even top seeds struggle to advance in March. Being a seed with higher expectations is the goal, and being in position to advance is how I judge programs.

Could you elaborate a bit? Like 4 of Creans ncaa births we were a team capable of a sweet 16 we just didn't show up in the tournament or were injured. Is that good or do you mean a program that actually shows up for the tournament no matter seed?

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 29, 2018, 10:56:24 PM
I respect your opinion but honestly do not understand it. A team that's a 10 seed that makes the S16 has far more flaws than the 2 seed that plays one bad game at the wrong time. To each their own.

You posed a great question.  Others have chimed in with alternatively good thoughts to my initial take. 

Guess for me, the deciding factor was the tournament success, versus regular season "success."  The floor hope would be that we are a program that is a consistent NCAA team - so how we get there isn't quite as important to me - as is the fun/excitement/achievement/milestone that goes along with making Sweet 16s.

It would sting worse to be a high seed, high hopes, high expectations and to bow out early.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 29, 2018, 11:04:54 PM
The regular season vs. postseason success is an interesting and great question. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer. For me, I would definitely enjoy the 11 seed making the Sweet 16 more, but I think the 2 seed losing in the round of 32 means the team had a better season. Gun to my head I think I take the 2 seed that loses early. As much as the fans enjoy a Sweet 16 appearance, I don't think it does much for your program. No one remembers who made the Sweet 16 in a given year. But I do think winning and being consistently good throughout a season helps build your program. Now an 11 seed that makes the Final Four? I would pick that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not sure about Elite Eight.

I agree with this. Honestly, short of a Final Four, I'll take the seed and a conference title over a Sweet 16 or even Elite Eight. I love watching that second weekend, but having a title like that is something that's legitimately worth being proud over, whereas few people remember who made up even the Elite Eight in any given year.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 10:53:17 AM
You posed a great question.  Others have chimed in with alternatively good thoughts to my initial take. 

Guess for me, the deciding factor was the tournament success, versus regular season "success."  The floor hope would be that we are a program that is a consistent NCAA team - so how we get there isn't quite as important to me - as is the fun/excitement/achievement/milestone that goes along with making Sweet 16s.

It would sting worse to be a high seed, high hopes, high expectations and to bow out early.

I get it. NCAA wins are exciting. Great feeling as a fan and I'd probably enjoy it in the moment more than I enjoyed a Big East title. I just think 5 years after the fact, I'm gonna appreciate the 25 win team more than the team that caught lightning in a bottle.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2018, 04:16:18 AM

Edit: I have confidence in Marquette. In terms of chances of making the S16, I would have more confidence in Duke over Marquette. But I still wouldn't bet on Duke, Kansas, Gonzaga or Kentucky as a S16 team. Nothing to do with confidence. Everything to do with a poor bet

Poor bet? Duke will almost assuredly be a #1 seed this year. To make the S16 they wink have to beat a 16 seed and an 8/9 seed winner. They'll be a massive favorite in game 1 (99%) and a very solid favorite in game 2 (75-85%) so the odds of them winning both are between .99x.75 and .99x.85 or approximately 74% and 84%.

IOW, not a poor bet, but one you make every time.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2018, 05:13:39 PM
Poor bet? Duke will almost assuredly be a #1 seed this year. To make the S16 they wink have to beat a 16 seed and an 8/9 seed winner. They'll be a massive favorite in game 1 (99%) and a very solid favorite in game 2 (75-85%) so the odds of them winning both are between .99x.75 and .99x.85 or approximately 74% and 84%.

IOW, not a poor bet, but one you make every time.

Fine. I still wouldn't make the bet.

And, it still reflects zero of my confidence in Duke. Or Marquette.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2018, 05:13:39 PM
Poor bet? Duke will almost assuredly be a #1 seed this year. To make the S16 they wink have to beat a 16 seed and an 8/9 seed winner. They'll be a massive favorite in game 1 (99%) and a very solid favorite in game 2 (75-85%) so the odds of them winning both are between .99x.75 and .99x.85 or approximately 74% and 84%.

IOW, not a poor bet, but one you make every time.

Good analysis Lenny.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2018, 05:50:36 PM
Fine. I still wouldn't make the bet.

And, it still reflects zero of my confidence in Duke. Or Marquette.

Jes - You should cash in on what you referred to as the "dumb bet" I offered.

So, $100.  I've got Duke in the Sweet 16.  You don't.  Deal?

We can remove MU from the equation.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:03:49 PM
Good analysis Lenny.

Jes - You should cash in on what you referred to as the "dumb bet" I offered.

So, $100.  I've got Duke in the Sweet 16.  You don't.  Deal?

We can remove MU from the equation.

No thanks

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2018, 05:13:39 PM
Poor bet? Duke will almost assuredly be a #1 seed this year. To make the S16 they wink have to beat a 16 seed and an 8/9 seed winner. They'll be a massive favorite in game 1 (99%) and a very solid favorite in game 2 (75-85%) so the odds of them winning both are between .99x.75 and .99x.85 or approximately 74% and 84%.

IOW, not a poor bet, but one you make every time.

100% agree it isn't a poor bet, and yes it is one you make every time, or close to it.  Historically 86.03% of the time a #1 seed has advanced to the Sweet 16.  Damn good bet.

Quote from: Cheeks on November 30, 2018, 12:10:08 AM
I remember this kind of talk in the 90's with UNLV....a virtual guarantee to win it all.....but they didn't.

So they got beat in the National Championship game.  (Not exactly the same as bowing out of the tournament in the Round of 32 - as would be the case if Duke doesn't make Sweet 16 this year.)

Quote from: Cheeks on November 30, 2018, 12:08:13 AM
UVA was a lock for Sweet 16 last year according to everybody not named UMBC

I'll take my chances that the 1/16 upset that had never happened in roughly 140 games, won't repeat itself this year.

You want in on the action Cheeks?  Same offer to you? $100.  I've got Duke in Sweet 16, you don't. 

Quote from: Cheeks on November 30, 2018, 08:14:11 PM
100% agree it isn't a poor bet, and yes it is one you make every time, or close to it.  Historically 86.03% of the time a #1 seed has advanced to the Sweet 16.  Damn good bet.

Are we sure Duke is going to be a 1 seed?

Zags could be undefeated with a win over Duke. Nevada could be undefeated. Both would be 1 seeds if that's the case.

Does Duke win the ACC over UVA? Does Kansas get a 1 seed when they win the Big 12?

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2018, 08:07:36 PM
No thanks

Fair enough.  Please feel free to kindly edit your post suggesting my offered bet was "dumb."   ;D

I respect your decision.  It is HIGHLY likely Duke makes the Sweet 16 this year.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:17:58 PM
Fair enough.  Please feel free to kindly edit your post suggesting my offered bet was "dumb."   ;D

I respect your decision.  It is HIGHLY likely Duke makes the Sweet 16 this year.

In saying "dumb", I'm referring to you needing people to state whether they think Marquette will make the S16 as a barometer for their confidence in the team.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2018, 08:19:45 PM
In saying "dumb", I'm referring to you needing people to state whether they think Marquette will make the S16 as a barometer for their confidence in the team.

That's one way of looking at it. Another?  If a person isn't willing to put any cash on it, they ultimately aren't very confident.

Going into this Magic Power Point, Year 5, when all things will be revealed, there sure was a lot of bullish optimism and now it seems those most bullish, are backing off those projections - and once again putting caveats in place - "it's a crapshoot," "matchups," etc.  At some point this coach needs to perform and get the job done.  Simple as that.  Show us you can do it Wojo (and that's when my criticism will stop.)

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:15:38 PM
So they got beat in the National Championship game.  (Not exactly the same as bowing out of the tournament in the Round of 32 - as would be the case if Duke doesn't make Sweet 16 this year.)

I'll take my chances that the 1/16 upset that had never happened in roughly 140 games, won't repeat itself this year.

You want in on the action Cheeks?  Same offer to you? $100.  I've got Duke in Sweet 16, you don't.

I would take Duke in the Sweet 16 assuming they stay healthy.  For almost any other team, except Michigan maybe, I would not.....that includes Marquette. Way too early to know, plus I need to know who they are playing, where they are playing.  Duke is one of the few teams that on talent alone should get there.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
That's one way of looking at it. Another?  If a person isn't willing to put any cash on it, they ultimately aren't very confident.

Going into this Magic Power Point, Year 5, when all things will be revealed, there sure was a lot of bullish optimism and now it seems those most bullish, are backing off those projections - and once again putting caveats in place - "it's a crapshoot," "matchups," etc.  At some point this coach needs to perform and get the job done.  Simple as that.  Show us you can do it Wojo (and that's when my criticism will stop.)

I don't deny your premise. But you keep asking about the S16. Why not total wins? Or conference wins? Or NCAA seed?

Picking the results of a one and done tourney as your measuring stick for people's confidence is automatically a disqualifier (at least for me) and leads me to believe you're playing an intentionally disingenuous game.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
That's one way of looking at it. Another?  If a person isn't willing to put any cash on it, they ultimately aren't very confident.

Going into this Magic Power Point, Year 5, when all things will be revealed, there sure was a lot of bullish optimism and now it seems those most bullish, are backing off those projections - and once again putting caveats in place - "it's a crapshoot," "matchups," etc.  At some point this coach needs to perform and get the job done.  Simple as that.  Show us you can do it Wojo (and that's when my criticism will stop.)

No it won't. You never stop.

Quote from: Cheeks on November 30, 2018, 12:19:54 AM
Back in Al's day the talent was horded by less teams with more scholarships.  Today the talent is spread out and available to many schools due to less scholarships and the ease by which families, etc can watch junior play.  The elite teams back in Al's day May have been better than today, at least among their peer set.   

In Coach Al's days, particularly before the mid-1970s, comparatively few teams recruited African-American basketball players. John Wooden did. Al did. Dean Smith did. Guess who was 1-2-3 in the 1970s?

Today, thankfully, the prejudice that confronted our teams in the 1960s and early 1970s is largely gone. An African American basketball player has the same opportunity has a caucasian basketball player. As a consequence, the edge Al had in cracked sidewalk neighborhoods has largely been diluted. It's harder to build a dynasty today, but easierr to find one or two great players who can turn a team around in a minute.

Coach Wojo has discovered that while he has a great sale in Marquette, the players he pursues also are being pursued by some very high powered programs. Coach Wojo only wil win those battles if he wins on the court and assures his best ends up in the NBA.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
That's one way of looking at it. Another?  If a person isn't willing to put any cash on it, they ultimately aren't very confident.

Going into this Magic Power Point, Year 5, when all things will be revealed, there sure was a lot of bullish optimism and now it seems those most bullish, are backing off those projections - and once again putting caveats in place - "it's a crapshoot," "matchups," etc.  At some point this coach needs to perform and get the job done.  Simple as that.  Show us you can do it Wojo (and that's when my criticism will stop.)

I'm not backing off anything. Sweet 16 was never a part of the equation. All about seeding in the tourney. If we get a 1 seed and lose to the 16 seed it will be a gut punch but I will still say that it was an overly successful season. If we play in Dayton but go on a magical run to the Sweet 16 I will enjoy it immensely but will say it was a season that we underachieved.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 30, 2018, 09:42:53 PM
I'm not backing off anything. Sweet 16 was never a part of the equation. All about seeding in the tourney. If we get a 1 seed and lose to the 16 seed it will be a gut punch but I will still say that it was an overly successful season. If we play in Dayton but go on a magical run to the Sweet 16 I will enjoy it immensely but will say it was a season that we underachieved.

What was promised/part of the equation in Year 5 of the Magic Power Point?  I'd have to imagine there was more than just making the NCAA tournament, no?

Curious:  If we finish 20-11, Finish 3rd or 4th in Big East, make the tourney as an 8 seed and get bounced in the first round - successful season?

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 10:48:29 PM
What was promised/part of the equation in Year 5 of the Magic Power Point?  I'd have to imagine there was more than just making the NCAA tournament, no?

Curious:  If we finish 20-11, Finish 3rd or 4th in Big East, make the tourney as an 8 seed and get bounced in the first round - successful season?

For me, no. Decent season. Short of expectations. 8 and winning a game I'd be okay with. 6 seed or better and I could live with a first round loss

Finishing in the top 3 or 4 in the Big East this season and earning an 8 seed in the tournament would be the team's best finish under Wojo. It would also be the 2nd NCAA appearance in 3 years.

That's clear progress. Can this team do better? With the talent and depth on the roster, I could still see us competing for a Top 25 ranking and a 5 or 6 seed. It will likely depend on how the new players (JC, Ed, Joey and Brendan) gel and develop over the next few months -- and whether the upperclassmen (Markus, Sam, Sacar) step up as leaders.

The picture should be clearer in about a month, once the conference schedule starts. Let's see how we do against Kansas State and Wisconsin.

Quote from: Marcus92 on December 01, 2018, 12:14:12 AM
Finishing in the top 3 or 4 in the Big East this season and earning an 8 seed in the tournament would be the team's best finish under Wojo. It would also be the 2nd NCAA appearance in 3 years.

That's clear progress. Can this team do better? With the talent and depth on the roster, I could still see us competing for a Top 25 ranking and a 5 or 6 seed. It will likely depend on how the new players (JC, Ed, Joey and Brendan) gel and develop over the next few months -- and whether the upperclassmen (Markus, Sam, Sacar) step up as leaders.

The picture should be clearer in about a month, once the conference schedule starts. Let's see how we do against Kansas State and Wisconsin.

8 seed is the goal lmao? douche

Quote from: Johnny B on December 01, 2018, 02:04:17 AM
8 seed is the goal lmao? douche

douchebaga are hygenic products so I take that as a compliment.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 10:48:29 PM
What was promised/part of the equation in Year 5 of the Magic Power Point?  I'd have to imagine there was more than just making the NCAA tournament, no?

Curious:  If we finish 20-11, Finish 3rd or 4th in Big East, make the tourney as an 8 seed and get bounced in the first round - successful season?

I don't think many successful leaders would judge success based on one game which would amount to 3% (or less) of the season.

As for your scenario, no,  I would not consider that a success. It would fall just short of expectations. Bump it to a 7 seed or make the round of 32 and it would meet expectations.

Though if you follow KenPom,  he projected this roster as an 8 seed preseason, so as a dedicated disciple I would imagine you would think an 8 seed was a success.

Quote from: Johnny B on December 01, 2018, 02:04:17 AM8 seed is the goal lmao? douche

Maybe I shouldn't bother replying to someone with so little respect for other posters, or so little interest in actually reading other posts.

Nowhere did I say an 8 seed should be the goal for the Marquette program. I said it would be progress. Progress from 3 straight years missing the tournament (starting with the last season Buzz was here). Progress toward competing for Big East championships.

Based on what we've seen so far, an 8 seed is a realistic expectation for this team. Expectations aren't the same as goals. I didn't say that an 8 seed was my expectation, either. if you managed to read a few sentences further, you would have seen that I think this team can do better. Next season, even more so.

And if you disagree with me, I won't respond with an insult worthy of a 14-year-old.

Quote from: Cheeks on November 30, 2018, 08:14:11 PM
100% agree it isn't a poor bet, and yes it is one you make every time, or close to it.  Historically 86.03% of the time a #1 seed has advanced to the Sweet 16.  Damn good bet.

Where is that 86.03% stat coming from?  I found this, http://mcubed.net/ncaab/seeds.shtml , but my math would suggest 84% success rate based on the 8/9 records.  Though this data may not be up to date.

Still the right bet to make.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2018, 12:13:07 PM
Talent on da currant roster is over-raided, hey?

You may be right.  What really gets me, is watching the varmints win game after game with mediocre talent, while Marquette has much higher ranked recruits struggle to win.  It seems that Bo and Gard do a much better job than Wojo coaching up players and preparing them to win.  I wish it weren't so, but year after year it seems true.

Guys,  WarriorDad disagreed with Cheeks. We were obviously wrong

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 30, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
That's one way of looking at it. Another?  If a person isn't willing to put any cash on it, they ultimately aren't very confident.

Your boi Traci is really struggling. Must be a shocker to you. Lol, La Salle will fall to 0-8 when they lose again today. Ouch.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 01, 2018, 09:29:51 AM
Your boi Traci is really struggling. Must be a shocker to you. Lol, La Salle will fall to 0-8 when they lose again today. Ouch.

Yep.  Definitely surprised Traci hasn't performed better.  First time head coach.  Hasn't played in 1.5 years.  Lots of room for improvement. 

Still got that Top 15 finish for MU this year JayBee?  Know you were all in on this squad pre-season.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 01, 2018, 04:12:30 AM
I don't think many successful leaders would judge success based on one game which would amount to 3% (or less) of the season.

As for your scenario, no,  I would not consider that a success. It would fall just short of expectations. Bump it to a 7 seed or make the round of 32 and it would meet expectations.

Though if you follow KenPom,  he projected this roster as an 8 seed preseason, so as a dedicated disciple I would imagine you would think an 8 seed was a success.

We are talking about Year 5 of the 5 year plan TAMU.  This isn't the case of judging "one game."  Is it too much to ask that Wojo win ONE NCAA tourney game in 5-years?

Did the Power Point specify projected seed in Year 5?  A mediocre 8 seed?  Personally would hope the expectations would be slightly higher than an 8 seed in Year 5 of the regime, with an expectation of a coin flip 1st round defeat in NCAA.

Quote from: WarriorDad on December 01, 2018, 08:53:37 AM
Where is that 86.03% stat coming from?  I found this, http://mcubed.net/ncaab/seeds.shtml , but my math would suggest 84% success rate based on the 8/9 records.  Though this data may not be up to date.

Still the right bet to make.

JFC

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 11:33:37 AM
We are talking about Year 5 of the 5 year plan TAMU.  This isn't the case of judging "one game."  Is it too much to ask that Wojo win ONE NCAA tourney game in 5-years?

Did the Power Point specify projected seed in Year 5?  A mediocre 8 seed?  Personally would hope the expectations would be slightly higher than an 8 seed in Year 5 of the regime, with an expectation of a coin flip 1st round defeat in NCAA.

Actually you asked me about this season not the past five years.

You said 8 seed, not me. Expectation for this season is comfortably in the tournament with foundation for future success. For me that would be 7 seed or higher. Keep in mind that a 7 seed theoretically means you're one of the top 28 teams in the country.

Wojo has met expectations every season so far.  He has yet to exceed them. That's ok (not great) as long as the expectations keep going up.  This year has the highest expectations to date. Looking at the roster for 19-20 expectations will go up when higher.  That's good trajectory (provided he continues to meet expectations).

You can disagree with the expectations but they were all supported by services like KenPom. Maybe you don't actually have an issue with Wojos coaching,  maybe it's his recruiting. Cause he's coached the roster to where the unbiased sources had said it should be every year (with slight disappointment in Year two and slight overachieving in Year three). If he was landing better players expectations would have been higher.

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 11:27:14 AM
Yep.  Definitely surprised Traci hasn't performed better.  First time head coach.  Hasn't played in 1.5 years.  Lots of room for improvement. 

Still got that Top 15 finish for MU this year JayBee?  Know you were all in on this squad pre-season.

Never said "top 15 FINISH", but my preseason thoughts on the team have not changed

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 01, 2018, 11:57:54 AM
Actually you asked me about this season not the past five years.

You said 8 seed, not me. Expectation for this season is comfortably in the tournament with foundation for future success. For me that would be 7 seed or higher. Keep in mind that a 7 seed theoretically means you're one of the top 28 teams in the country.

Wojo has met expectations every season so far.  He has yet to exceed them. That's ok (not great) as long as the expectations keep going up.  This year has the highest expectations to date. Looking at the roster for 19-20 expectations will go up when higher.  That's good trajectory (provided he continues to meet expectations).

You can disagree with the expectations but they were all supported by services like KenPom. Maybe you don't actually have an issue with Wojos coaching,  maybe it's his recruiting. Cause he's coached the roster to where the unbiased sources had said it should be every year (with slight disappointment in Year two and slight overachieving in Year three). If he was landing better players expectations would have been higher.

Yes.  This season is Year 5.  You've told us all along he was largely hired based on his Power Point presentation and that Year 5 was going to be the Year we blossomed - took that big step forward.

You mention expectations should go up each year.  So, it stands to reason he failed last year, after the NCAA campaign in Year 3, AND it seems as though you feel if we lose in the first round of the NCAA, that wouldn't qualify as a failure/not meeting expectations?

For real though, what was promised in the Power Point in Year 5?

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 01, 2018, 12:11:45 PM
Never said "top 15 FINISH", but my preseason thoughts on the team have not changed

My bad.  Pretty sure I recall reading that in a post you'd made (and subsequently could have edited.)  You did allude to the pollsters not knowing as in the "forgive them, for they not know" post when commenting on us not being ranked in Top 25 Preseason poll.

What is your projected seed for this team?

Does M2N still happen? 

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 12:16:19 PM
You've told us all along he was largely hired based on his Power Point presentation and that Year 5 was going to be the Year we blossomed - took that big step forward.

He never said the former and isn't wrong (or right) about the latter - since we are in year five right now.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on December 01, 2018, 12:21:46 PM

He never said the former and isn't wrong (or right) about the latter - since we are in year five right now.

Semantics.  The guy has a freaking PowerPoint slide as his avatar here and references as much.  Believe TAMU is the one who brought the whole "Golden Power Point" verbiage here.

However, your point is correct about the latter. 

If you guys would simply stop talking to him, maybe, just maybe, scoop might actually become readable again.

Quote from: jsglow on December 01, 2018, 12:39:27 PM
If you guys would simply stop talking to him, maybe, just maybe, scoop might actually become readable again.

Hallelujah. Some fish can't refuse the bait

Quote from: jsglow on December 01, 2018, 12:39:27 PM
If you guys would simply stop talking to him, maybe, just maybe, scoop might actually become readable again.

Stale and largely an echo chamber.  Feel free to participate on Dodds board.  Sounds like it might be more your speed. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 12:16:19 PM
Yes.  This season is Year 5.  You've told us all along he was largely hired based on his Power Point presentation and that Year 5 was going to be the Year we blossomed - took that big step forward.

You mention expectations should go up each year.  So, it stands to reason he failed last year, after the NCAA campaign in Year 3, AND it seems as though you feel if we lose in the first round of the NCAA, that wouldn't qualify as a failure/not meeting expectations?

For real though, what was promised in the Power Point in Year 5?

I never said anything about a power point. It was a common joke here that I decided to run with. Same thing I did when your old account dubbed a bunch of us the usual suspects and I changed my avatar.

Expectations need to trend up.  They don't need to go up every season. Year 4 was always going to be a drop off season because of the roster Wojo inherited. Despite all the graduations year 4 was better than year two. Ergo trending up.

I already said make the tournament comfortably with a foundation for future success.

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 12:30:57 PM
Semantics.  The guy has a freaking PowerPoint slide as his avatar here and references as much.  Believe TAMU is the one who brought the whole "Golden Power Point" verbiage here.

However, your point is correct about the latter.

Actually I believe you added the golden verbage. I don't remember who started the power point references. I remember Dr B taking about them but it was pretty widespread on scoop for awhile

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 01, 2018, 12:59:54 PM
I never said anything about a power point. It was a common joke here that I decided to run with. Same thing I did when your old account dubbed a bunch of us the usual suspects and I changed my avatar.

Expectations need to trend up.  They don't need to go up every season. Year 4 was always going to be a drop off season because of the roster Wojo inherited. Despite all the graduations year 4 was better than year two. Ergo trending up.

I already said make the tournament comfortably with a foundation for future success.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 01, 2018, 01:03:30 PM
Actually I believe you added the golden verbage. I don't remember who started the power point references. I remember Dr B taking about them but it was pretty widespread on scoop for awhile

I accept your explanations.  I disagree that Year 4 should have been a step back, particularly when many of the usual suspects were lamenting the early performance because Wojo "didn't have all of his own guys." 

As to a previous point - I feel that our talent in Year 3 and Year 4 was better than what it performed.  I believe we haven't reached our potential because of Wojo's "coaching."

Quote from: Floorslapper on December 01, 2018, 12:46:53 PM
Stale and largely an echo chamber.  Feel free to participate on Dodds board.  Sounds like it might be more your speed.

The guy who has been banned on multiple forums multiple times is not the problem, it's everyone else.

Hilarious.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 01, 2018, 05:09:07 PM
The guy who has been banned on multiple forums multiple times is not the problem, it's everyone else.

Hilarious.

He once claimed that the mods wouldn't ban him because Scoop needed him.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on December 01, 2018, 05:13:13 PM
He once claimed that the mods wouldn't ban him because Scoop needed him.

Was that before or after the poll?

We're right on schedule. Outstanding wins over the No. 12 team in the nation and a Louisville team that beat Sparty.

Looking forward to flushing F%cky down the toilet next week!

Glad Wojo is our coach. So far, there is zero objective evidence to suggest he's not doing as well as or better than any of the alternatives at the time would have done here.

Another very good defensive performance. Impressed with our toughness today.

Great win!

Quote from: MuMark on December 01, 2018, 05:58:07 PM
Another very good defensive performance. Impressed with our toughness today.

Great win!

The defense is so much better.  There are still terrible breakdowns, but way ahead of last year.  My biggest concern is turnovers still.

Some entertaining reading here.   

Yep.

We have played 10 games and, unlike many highly ranked and/or hyped teams, we have zero bad losses. We also have three very good wins.

I was thinking I'd be quite pleased if we got out of NC with a 10-3 record. Now I'm getting a little greedy and thinking 11-2!

But if we happen to stumble and lose to Buffalo -- I don't think we will, but maybe 2/3rds of the team will have the flu or something -- I am not going to say the effen season is over like a few of the usual suspects surely will.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2018, 09:23:20 AMBut if we happen to stumble and lose to Buffalo -- I don't think we will, but maybe 2/3rds of the team will have the flu or something -- I am not going to say the effen season is over like a few of the usual suspects surely will.

So will Buffalo be ranked 12th when we play them? They are currently 17/18 in the polls. They'll probably jump Wisconsin and Kansas State to move up to 15/16 next week. They could even get ahead of Kentucky.

Games to watch would be Tennessee playing Gonzaga (today) and at Memphis, Virginia Tech playing Washington on a neutral, UNC playing Gonzaga at home (all on Dec 15). My guess is they'll come in at 14 or so, but having three weekends in a month with #12 coming to town would certainly be an interesting coincidence.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 09, 2018, 10:10:39 AM
So will Buffalo be ranked 12th when we play them? They are currently 17/18 in the polls. They'll probably jump Wisconsin and Kansas State to move up to 15/16 next week. They could even get ahead of Kentucky.

Games to watch would be Tennessee playing Gonzaga (today) and at Memphis, Virginia Tech playing Washington on a neutral, UNC playing Gonzaga at home (all on Dec 15). My guess is they'll come in at 14 or so, but having three weekends in a month with #12 coming to town would certainly be an interesting coincidence.

If that happens all we can do is hope that nova crawls up to 12 by the time they come around as well

Hell if St Johns is undefeated they could climb to 12 by New Years

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2018, 09:23:20 AM
Yep.

We have played 10 games and, unlike many highly ranked and/or hyped teams, we have zero bad losses. We also have three very good wins.

I was thinking I'd be quite pleased if we got out of NC with a 10-3 record. Now I'm getting a little greedy and thinking 11-2!

But if we happen to stumble and lose to Buffalo -- I don't think we will, but maybe 2/3rds of the team will have the flu or something -- I am not going to say the effen season is over like a few of the usual suspects surely will.

I think we are winning the games most of us felt we could win. I don't think many posters had games @ IU and against Kansas pencilled in as wins. I did not. I think we win out the remaining NC games and will be in great shape going into BE play. We are building a solid resume.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 09, 2018, 10:49:11 AM
Hell if St Johns is undefeated they could climb to 12 by New Years

I'm skeptical they could get that high. Seems unlikely they get in this week, so the soonest they enter the polls is December 17. They would have to go from ≈ 23-25 to 12 in 2 weeks. That's a really fast climb, especially when there's a lot of buy games around Christmas with bowl season taking the ratings.

Three things.  One, we're playing very credible D this year.  That means we don't have to shoot lights out to win.  Two, the team absolutely took Wojo's coaching to heart about turnovers.  We won yesterday because we got a shot nearly every possession.  Three, we MADE more free throws that they attempted.  Absolutely finding a new way to score.  Very important.

Quote from: jsglow on December 09, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
Three things.  One, we're playing very credible D this year.  That means we don't have to shoot lights out to win.  Two, the team absolutely took Wojo's coaching to heart about turnovers.  We won yesterday because we got a shot nearly every possession.  Three, we MADE more free throws that they attempted.  Absolutely finding a new way to score.  Very important.

The two aren't directly related, but we got more offensive rebounds than we had turnovers. That means we gave ourselves more second chances to score than we gave up possessions. That made a difference.

True dat brew.  Again, in the past we had one way to win.  Out shoot 'em.  Last year we could have never won that game.