MUScoop

Everyone writing height was out problem today...it's okay to be undersized if you have guards who can shoot. Guard play today other than Carlino was the reason we lost this game. Yes we gave up O Reboubds yet WI had converted very few of them. Other than Carlino I believe our guards were 2 of 19 shooting. Game over.

Also:
Juan - Pull up and take some of the midrange or 3 looks you had instead of trying to challenge a 7 footer. Juan has decent shot.

Duane - Hampered by playing alongside Derrick.

Derrick - Best asset is his man to man defensive skills. Zone D doesn't use those skills. Length helps in zone. Shouldn't be playing 30 minutes.  Need a better shooter in his place - whether Cohen, JJJ or Dawson.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:02:29 PM

Derrick - Best asset is his man to man defensive skills. Zone D doesn't use those skills. Length helps in zone. Shouldn't be playing 30 minutes.  Need a better shooter in his place - whether Cohen, JJJ or Dawson.

JJJ?!?!?  Yeah, sure.  I think you could find walk ons who could shoot it better than that brick layer.  He's awful.  One good game this season for him, and since back to his garbage play of a year ago.  Good in the open court, that's all JJJ brings.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 06, 2014, 02:06:30 PM
JJJ?!?!?  Yeah, sure.  I think you could find walk ons who could shoot it better than that brick layer.  He's awful.  One good game this season for him, and since back to his garbage play of a year ago.  Good in the open court, that's all JJJ brings.

Fair enough. But, is he worse shooter than Derrick?  Hard to say but I don't think so.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Fair enough. But, is he worse shooter than Derrick?  Hard to say but I don't think so.

No, he's not a worse shooter than Derrick.  But you'd struggle to come up with anyone in the entire country who's worse than Derrick shooting it (at least under 6'9")

Height was most definitely a problem.  Aside from 6 blocks and who knows how many wild interior shots, WI was able to put a lot of pressure on our permitter players not allowing them to get open looks.  WI knew they would be fine if our guards got past them because we had no chance of scoring inside.  Pretty much all of Carlino's threes were contested/deep.  There were very few open 3 attempts available - aside from the two Juan attempted.  

Deonte needs to settle for jumpers more, or maybe a better way of saying it is take what the defense is giving you much more often.  He's trying way too hard to force action to the basket when it's not there.  He's a good shooter.  I would say maybe the best on our roster after Carlino.   We needed him pulling up for J's way more than he did today.

Wisconsin smartly sagged off Derrick more than other teams have this year. Yet not to the 6 foot extent we saw in conference play. But due to the sagging in Derrick today it caused problems for Duane getting driving lanes as well as getting free for decent looks from 3 as the floor spacing was reduced.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 06, 2014, 02:12:54 PM
No, he's not a worse shooter than Derrick.  But you'd struggle to come up with anyone in the entire country who's worse than Derrick shooting it (at least under 6'9")

Did not watch the came to closely, just looked at the box score, Derrick playing 35 minutes and no points and Juan over 30 with maybe 1 point, those 2 seniors are a disaster. Next year
will be a whole new team, how did Steve Taylor play?  He will be back next year but not excited about him at all.  I point MU has played 3 really good Big Ten teams and lost by 11 in all
three games, at least they did not get blown out.

Height was a pretty big factor today. Too many second, third, fourth chances for UW. You don't need to shoot a good percentage to win when you have multiple shots at the basket on each possession.

I don't see how Duane got hampered by playing next to Derrick. Seemed to work fine last weekend. The badgers made Duane a priority to shut down and they did. Unfortunate some of the other guys didn't step up on the offensive end.

Quote from: BCHoopster on December 06, 2014, 02:16:56 PM
Did not watch the came to closely, just looked at the box score, Derrick playing 35 minutes and no points and Juan over 30 with maybe 1 point, those 2 seniors are a disaster. Next year
will be a whole new team, how did Steve Taylor play?  He will be back next year but not excited about him at all.  I point MU has played 3 really good Big Ten teams and lost by 11 in all
three games, at least they did not get blown out.

Taylor's been a disappointment so far, playing out of position or not.  He shows no real first step, quickness, post moves, etc.  He's still 6'7" with a decent frame.  He shouldn't be struggling this much just because he's going against bigger opponents.  I'm surprise at his weak start.  Hopefully he'll start playing better, they've got to have him contributing to be competitive this year.

This is a great post as it is finally pushed me over the edge to ignore Ners. I feel stupid for being late to that party.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 06, 2014, 02:17:21 PM
Height was a pretty big factor today. Too many second, third, fourth chances for UW. You don't need to shoot a good percentage to win when you have multiple shots at the basket on each possession.

I don't see how Duane got hampered by playing next to Derrick. Seemed to work fine last weekend. The badgers made Duane a priority to shut down and they did. Unfortunate some of the other guys didn't step up on the offensive end.

The Badgers sagged off Derrick today about 4 feet. First team to do it this season and it clogged Lane and we could t space floor as well as if Derrick did go outside 3 point line to try to create spacing Badger defender wouldn't follow..hedged toward being a help defender on Duane and Carlino.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 06, 2014, 02:17:21 PM

I don't see how Duane got hampered by playing next to Derrick. Seemed to work fine last weekend. The badgers made Duane a priority to shut down and they did. Unfortunate some of the other guys didn't step up on the offensive end.

Spot on, I love Duane's play so far, and I'm still very enthusiastic for his future, but he was just flat bad today.  The Badgers were well prepared for him.

Quote from: Marquette_g on December 06, 2014, 02:21:28 PM
This is a great post as it is finally pushed me over the edge to ignore Ners. I feel stupid for being late to that party.

I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

There's not a legitimate point being made. Anyone who watched the game can see WI's size killed us

I guess it is simply a way of looking at life. For many on this thread there is only the negative view coupled with unrealistic expectations. Oh yes, didn't someone say Kaminsky was going to score 40 and it was going to be a blow-out?  OK, I got it Wisconsin sucks since we all know MU sucks and, therefore, if UW was any good they would have beaten us by 40.  I guess some can not accept the simple reality that, while this team has flaws, it is very tough and will not give up. That my friends is character. Win or loose this team deserves our respect.

Quote from: HallSports on December 06, 2014, 02:32:07 PM
There's not a legitimate point being made. Anyone who watched the game can see WI's size killed us

When 4 of your 5 guards (not being defended by size) go 2 of 19 from the field - anyone can see that's a big problem. Did Hayes get off?  Dekker? Kaminsky?  No. We struggled rebounding and that was largely a byproduct of the zone and WI launching lots of 3s which always are harder to corral as missed tend to carom quite far.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:43:49 PM
When 4 of your 5 guards (not being defended by size) go 2 of 19 from the field - anyone can see that's a big problem. Did Hayes get off?  Dekker? Kaminsky?  No. We struggled rebounding and that was largely a byproduct of the zone and WI launching lots of 3s which always are harder to corral as missed tend to carom quite far.

It is not the rebounding battle that killed us, nor their inside scoring.  Our D took care of those limitations.  We lost, because we could not score the ball in the paint, even when we got by the defender.  That was a direct result of the height of Wisconsin. 

Height, was the problem.  Also, the discipline of UW on offense, they didn't allow us to capitalize on speed by causing a lot of turnovers.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:43:49 PM
When 4 of your 5 guards (not being defended by size) go 2 of 19 from the field - anyone can see that's a big problem. Did Hayes get off?  Dekker? Kaminsky?  No. We struggled rebounding and that was largely a byproduct of the zone and WI launching lots of 3s which always are harder to corral as missed tend to carom quite far.

Well considering 13/19 shots were near the rim I'd say they were being defended by size.  They could get inside but once they were there they were greeted by Kaminsky and co.  We had no big men of our own for them to worry about so they are sitting there waiting to block a shot or cause us to put up wild shots (of which there were plenty).  If we had a legit interior presence it would have negated this problem significantly.  As stated above, their guards were in our faces on the perimeter because of this interior help that we had no counter for.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

UW Guards:
24 points
8-25 fg (32%)
5-19 3 pt fg (26%)
3-5 ft (60%)
5 rebounds
7 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers

MU Guards:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

By my count the UW and MU guards played a pretty even game.  But what do I know, you have a better knowledge of the game of basketball than guys who are paid millions of dollars to coach it, so why should I point out the facts when they mean nothing compared to your superior knowledge of the game?

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 02:56:45 PM
UW Guards:
24 points
8-25 fg (32%)
5-19 3 pt fg (26%)
3-5 ft (60%)
5 rebounds
7 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers

MU Guards:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

By my count the UW and MU guards played a pretty even game.  But what do I know, you have a better knowledge of the game of basketball than guys who are paid millions of dollars to coach it, so why should I point out the facts when they mean nothing compared to your superior knowledge of the game?

game, set, match...well played.

Quote from: HallSports on December 06, 2014, 02:54:23 PM
Well considering 13/19 shots were near the rim I'd say they were being defended by size.  They could get inside but once they were there they were greeted by Kaminsky and co.  We had no big men of our own for them to worry about so they are sitting there waiting to block a shot or cause us to put up wild shots (of which there were plenty).  If we had a legit interior presence it would have negated this problem significantly.  As stated above, their guards were in our faces on the perimeter because of this interior help that we had no counter for.

I can go along with your point. However, we had bigs last year..didn't matter. And Carlino and Duane were hampered due to WI playing softly on Derrick so their looks from 3 were highly contested as a result. You face 3 guards and you know 2 of them can hurt you from deep or off the bounce and the other basically can't hurt you in anyway - what do you do as a coach?  You use the weak players defender to hedge toward the strong 2 guards.

It was size. We had no one to seal the lane. Our guards were driving right into Kaminsky because they had no choice. Defense was good, but the refs allowed a physical game, which was never going to help us. The reffing was fine, the defense was good, but we don't have the personnel to win a physical game with a team that much bigger and stronger.

Who is talking about last year?   Today, Wiscy's size and experience was the difference.    Guard play was statistically even, today.   Today, the difference was reboundng and interior defense for Wisconsin.   Because every time MU guards drove, they were met at the basket by somebody a lot bigger.    Because of the size advantage inside, the Wiscy guards didn't have to be  worried about being beat off of the dribble, so they could get out and contest 3's.   Wiscy's size today meant that MU had very few open looks.    

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 02:56:45 PM
UW Guards:
24 points
8-25 fg (32%)
5-19 3 pt fg (26%)
3-5 ft (60%)
5 rebounds
7 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers

MU Guards:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

By my count the UW and MU guards played a pretty even game.  But what do I know, you have a better knowledge of the game of basketball than guys who are paid millions of dollars to coach it, so why should I point out the facts when they mean nothing compared to your superior knowledge of the game?

And one team plays a 3 guard lineup (MU) and the other a 2 guard lineup. Which means you better be getting some production from that 3rd guard. We get none. Zilch. Sorry..I stand corrected - 1 point in 35 minutes.

Game. Set. Match. Wojo will eventually figure it out.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
It was size. We had no one to seal the lane. Our guards were driving right into Kaminsky because they had no choice. Defense was good, but the refs allowed a physical game, which was never going to help us. The reffing was fine, the defense was good, but we don't have the personnel to win a physical game with a team that much bigger and stronger.

Well said.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
It was size. We had no one to seal the lane. Our guards were driving right into Kaminsky because they had no choice. Defense was good, but the refs allowed a physical game, which was never going to help us. The reffing was fine, the defense was good, but we don't have the personnel to win a physical game with a team that much bigger and stronger.

You don't have to go to the basket if you can shoot the 3 effectively. You can space the floor and get those looks if you have 3 guys who can all shoot at guard position.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:06:38 PM
And one team plays a 3 guard lineup (MU) and the other a 2 guard lineup. Which means you better be getting some production from that 3rd guard. We get none. Zilch. Sorry..I stand corrected - 1 point in 35 minutes.

Game. Set. Match. Wojo will eventually figure it out.

Ahh, so it's Derrick's fault because he only put up 1 point, but the 2 Duane put up was fantastic.  I got it.  I think just by hearing your transcendent points I am increasing my basketball knowledge!

And fine, let's add Dekker into the UW numbers since he would be their 3.  So add his 2 points on 1-5 shooting, 0-2 3 pt fg, 0-0 ft, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 2 turnovers.  Dang, since Duane's 2 points apparently was completely acceptable and even fantastic compared to Derrick's 1 point, you are right.  UW's guards (plus 1 forward to make the number of players contributing to those stats even) embarrassed MU's.  Despite them being incredibly even, and maybe even slightly favoring MU.  But again, you know more than Wojo and Buzz so what do I know?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:01:36 PM
I can go along with your point. However, we had bigs last year..didn't matter. And Carlino and Duane were hampered due to WI playing softly on Derrick so their looks from 3 were highly contested as a result. You face 3 guards and you know 2 of them can hurt you from deep or off the bounce and the other basically can't hurt you in anyway - what do you do as a coach?  You use the weak players defender to hedge toward the strong 2 guards.

We did have pretty good bigs laster year.  However: Carlino and Duane > Jake Thomas

I think if we had bigs this year they would have allowed our guards (who are far better as a unit this year than last) to get inside and actually have a chance at finishing.  They also wouldn't be able to play so far off Derrick as they actually have to be worried about him driving in that case - He could either dish to a big or kick back out to Carlino or Duane or Sandy...  Teams wouldn't be able to pack it in tight against us like last year.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:08:25 PM
You don't have to go to the basket if you can shoot the 3 effectively. You can space the floor and get those looks if you have 3 guys who can all shoot at guard position.

Like I already said a couple of times, we really struggled getting open looks from 3 today because WI dominance in the paint allowed their guards to play in the face of our guards all game.  They really couldn't care less if our guards beat them to the inside because they knew they had no chance. We actually have a number of decent 3 point shooter this year (for a MU team in recent memory anyway) but that doesn't help if they can't get open.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

You have made no accounting for situations. The four possession series was huge.

That is my argument for why you are not accurate and your trolling is annoying.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588356

In fact, if you take out Kaminsky and Steve Taylor, the final score is 34-32 Wiscy.   Not to mention 6 blocks to 0 in favor of Wiscy.   Skilled size matters.  

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 03:10:23 PM
Ahh, so it's Derrick's fault because he only put up 1 point, but the 2 Duane put up was fantastic.  I got it.  I think just by hearing your transcendent points I am increasing my basketball knowledge!

And fine, let's add Dekker into the UW numbers since he would be their 3.  So add his 2 points on 1-5 shooting, 0-2 3 pt fg, 0-0 ft, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 2 turnovers.  Dang, since Duane's 2 points apparently was completely acceptable and even fantastic compared to Derrick's 1 point, you are right.  UW's guards (plus 1 forward to make the number of players contributing to those stats even) embarrassed MU's.  Despite them being incredibly even, and maybe even slightly favoring MU.  But again, you know more than Wojo and Buzz so what do I know?

I know Buzz took a team projected to win the Big East by other Big East coaches - who probably know the game a little and the league and it's talent - to missing the NIT.

And the argument I made wasn't just in Derrick - said we lost because of guard play - not height. But, the worst of the guard play did come from Derrick for the reasons cited above. At what point do you stop defending a freaking senior that played 975 minutes last season and turns in 1 freaking point in 35 minutes and goes 0-5 from the field?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:21:40 PM
I know Buzz took a team projected to win the Big East by other Big East coaches - who probably know the game a little and the league and it's talent - to missing the NIT.

And the argument I made wasn't just in Derrick - said we lost because of guard play - not height. But, the worst of the guard play did come from Derrick for the reasons cited above. At what point do you stop defending a freaking senior that played 975 minutes last season and turns in 1 freaking point in 35 minutes and goes 0-5 from the field?

Call Wojo.   Convince him.   The rest of us are tired.  You will have less luck changing his mind than you have changing scoopers' minds. 

UW's 1-3:
26 points
9-30 fg (30%)
5-21 3 pt fg (24%)
3-5 ft (60%)
10 rebounds
10 assists
1 steal
1 block
6 turnovers

MU's 1-3:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

UW's 4-5:
23 points
8-22 fg (36%)
3-9 3 pt fg (33%)
4-4 ft (100%)
25 rebounds
4 assists
6 steals
5 blocks
5 turnovers

MU's 4-5:
14 points
5-15 fg (33%)
2-4 3 pt fg (50%)
2-3 ft (67%)
17 rebounds
1 assist
0 steals
0 blocks
2 turnovers

Yup, looks like it the 1-3 positions were why we lost this one guys!  It wasn't the size, it was their 1-3 positions killed our 1-3 positions!

Revolutionary stuff here.

Quote from: tower912 on December 06, 2014, 03:22:39 PM
Call Wojo.   Convince him.   The rest of us are tired.

Trust me...there is a good chunk of out fan base too that is very tired of now 2 coaches ignoring the actual production of the player on the floor. If we are going to be a zone team, you eliminate Derricks one asset - on ball man to man D. We aren't getting pressed. Carlino and Duane shown they can take care of the rock as needed. We don't need a ball protector on the floor with Duane and Carlino. We need a guy who can knock down shots to help with the spacing. For the last time WI sagged off Derrick...which allowed his guy to hedge toward Carlino and Duane making it even more difficult to get decent looks fr the perimeter. The midgets team certainly was able to hear good teams and it was much smaller than the current MU team. Why??  Because Mo, Cooby could make shots.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:31:21 PM
Trust me...there is a good chunk of out fan base too that is very tired of now 2 coaches ignoring the actual production of the player on the floor. If we are going to be a zone team, you eliminate Derricks one asset - on ball man to man D. We aren't getting pressed. Carlino and Duane shown they can take care of the rock as needed. We don't need a ball protector on the floor with Duane and Carlino. We need a guy who can knock down shots to help with the spacing. For the last time WI sagged off Derrick...which allowed his guy to hedge toward Carlino and Duane making it even more difficult to get decent looks fr the perimeter. The midgets team certainly was able to hear good teams and it was much smaller than the current MU team. Why??  Because Mo, Cooby could make shots.

Yes, why don't you go start the fire Wojo campaign after 8 games with a squad he did not recruit himself.  Let's make Diener the coach for the rest of the year.  Maybe he will finely start Dawson and our problems will be solved.  Tournament here we come!

Quote from: HallSports on December 06, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
Yes, why don't you go start the fire Wojo campaign after 8 games with a squad he did not recruit himself.  Let's make Diener the coach for the rest of the year.  Maybe he will finely start Dawson and our problems will be solved.  Tournament here we come!

Except Diener would also start Derrick Wilson.

Then a good chunk of the fan base needs to take a realistic look at the rest of the rosters involved.   But leaving that aside.   What are the odds that two coaches, one widely considered one of the top young coaches in the country (if a bit eccentric), the other widely considered the best assistant in the country, with experience coaching national champions and Olympians, would have one and only one blind spot and it would be the same player?   Or, maybe, you have the blind spot.   Derrick is your white whale, Ahab.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:08:25 PM
You don't have to go to the basket if you can shoot the 3 effectively. You can space the floor and get those looks if you have 3 guys who can all shoot at guard position.

Sure, we could have got into a 3-point shooting contest. With Wisconsin. Because that ALWAYS ends well  ::)

We were 6/14 beyond the arc. That wasn't the problem. The problem was our lack of ability to match them physically inside meant we couldn't balance that successful outside shooting with inside scoring.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 03:42:19 PM
Sure, we could have got into a 3-point shooting contest. With Wisconsin. Because that ALWAYS ends well  ::)

We were 6/14 beyond the arc. That wasn't the problem. The problem was our lack of ability to match them physically inside meant we couldn't balance that successful outside shooting with inside scoring.

Not with Derrick Wilson in that 3 point shoring contest on our side of the ball. Ha. We had size last year. Didn't matter. UW pretty much dominated us that whole game last season. Why so you feel it is vital to have Derrick on the floor 35 minutes when we have Duane and Carlino on the floor...as we've faced limited full court pressure and are now playing zone D?

Keep it up, Ners. Only 20-some odd games to go. It COULD be that Wojo isn't really as stupid as Buzz and will realize that Dawson and Jajuan should start and get most of the minutes. Or not. What, one wonders will consume you when Derrick is gone? You'll probably find something.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:06:38 PM
And one team plays a 3 guard lineup (MU) and the other a 2 guard lineup. Which means you better be getting some production from that 3rd guard. We get none. Zilch. Sorry..I stand corrected - 1 point in 35 minutes.

Game. Set. Match. Wojo will eventually figure it out.

Unfortunately, that 3rd guard was covere by Dekker or Hayes whose height and length rendered that guard ineffective.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:21:40 PM
I know Buzz took a team projected to win the Big East by other Big East coaches - who probably know the game a little and the league and it's talent - to missing the NIT.

And the argument I made wasn't just in Derrick - said we lost because of guard play - not height. But, the worst of the guard play did come from Derrick for the reasons cited above. At what point do you stop defending a freaking senior that played 975 minutes last season and turns in 1 freaking point in 35 minutes and goes 0-5 from the field?

We will not achieve much with Derrick as a 35 minute player. He is beat utilizes as a high intensity replacement for 10-15 minutes. I don't understand why he was in the last 8 minutes of the game.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:31:21 PM
Trust me...there is a good chunk of out fan base too that is very tired of now 2 coaches ignoring the actual production of the player on the floor. If we are going to be a zone team, you eliminate Derricks one asset - on ball man to man D. We aren't getting pressed. Carlino and Duane shown they can take care of the rock as needed. We don't need a ball protector on the floor with Duane and Carlino. We need a guy who can knock down shots to help with the spacing. For the last time WI sagged off Derrick...which allowed his guy to hedge toward Carlino and Duane making it even more difficult to get decent looks fr the perimeter. The midgets team certainly was able to hear good teams and it was much smaller than the current MU team. Why??  Because Mo, Cooby could make shots.

Who is your alternative to Derrick?  Derrick is very good as a wing defender in the 2-3 and rebounds better than any of our guards.  Go back and watch the tape, late in the 2nd half with JJJ on the wing(where Derrick normally is) they fed Kaminsky who was double teamed in the post and JJJ decided to sag in to semi-triple team which led to a 3 from Gasser in the corner.

The only players that can legitimately play the wing in the 2-3 are Juan, Burton, Derrick, and maybe Sandy....thats it.

Derrick also got to the rim plenty, as did the rest of the team but there was too much height in their to be successful.  Players got to the hoop with even with Wisconsin supposedly sagging(not sure what game you were watching) but couldn't finish because there was no help under the bucket.  If Fischer is available for this game, the outcome is different.  If nothing else he is able to seal the lane to the hoop that Taylor and Burton can't.

I know you are vested in the Derrick sucks narrative but you could stand to come off the gas a little here, hammering away at it like this makes you look completely incompetent and you do have some good thoughts when you aren't obsessing about Derrick

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 06, 2014, 02:12:54 PM
No, he's not a worse shooter than Derrick.  But you'd struggle to come up with anyone in the entire country who's worse than Derrick shooting it (at least under 6'9")

Derrick airballed all 5 shots he took today. 4 of them were layups. I could find grade schoolers with better shooting percentages.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 06, 2014, 03:56:10 PM
We will not achieve much with Derrick as a 35 minute player. He is beat utilizes as a high intensity replacement for 10-15 minutes. I don't understand why he was in the last 8 minutes of the game.

Again, who are you putting in there instead of Derrick?  JjJ?  He has been brutal the last couple of games, was terrible on defense and drove the lane with no plan whatsoever.  Cohen?  He's going to be great but he's a freshman and just hasn't put it together yet.  Dawson?  I think we've said enough there.

Derrick was in no way the problem today and I can't believe we are having this argument again.  Derrick didn't help but he was not the issue.

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 03:58:30 PM
Derrick airballed all 5 shots he took today. 4 of them were layups. I could find grade schoolers with better shooting percentages.

You know who else had a terrible night at the rim?  Duane Wilson...is he terrible?  Seriously, our guards get to the rim to try and make crazy lapups with Frank Kaminsky right there, what do you want them to do?  But that is all on Derrick and nothing to do with any of the other guards????

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 03:58:30 PM
Derrick airballed all 5 shots he took today. 4 of them were layups. I could find grade schoolers with better shooting percentages.

methinks you do not know what an airball is.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:02:23 PM
You know who else had a terrible night at the rim?  Duane Wilson...is he terrible?  Seriously, our guards get to the rim to try and make crazy lapups with Frank Kaminsky right there, what do you want them to do?  But that is all on Derrick and nothing to do with any of the other guards????

When did I say Duane Wilson wasn't bad tonight for going to the rim. However he didn't airball literally every shot he took. I found that part kind of funny and I found it kind of sad.

Quote from: Class71 on December 06, 2014, 02:34:42 PM
I guess it is simply a way of looking at life. For many on this thread there is only the negative view coupled with unrealistic expectations. Oh yes, didn't someone say Kaminsky was going to score 40 and it was going to be a blow-out?  OK, I got it Wisconsin sucks since we all know MU sucks and, therefore, if UW was any good they would have beaten us by 40.  I guess some can not accept the simple reality that, while this team has flaws, it is very tough and will not give up. That my friends is character. Win or loose this team deserves our respect.

+ + +

Quote from: tower912 on December 06, 2014, 03:19:14 PM
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588356

In fact, if you take out Kaminsky and Steve Taylor, the final score is 34-32 Wiscy.   Not to mention 6 blocks to 0 in favor of Wiscy.   Skilled size matters.  

I know you are just trying to make a point - but I guarantee the score would NOT have been 34-32 if Kaminsky and Taylor were not in the game.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:49:36 PM
Not with Derrick Wilson in that 3 point shoring contest on our side of the ball. Ha. We had size last year. Didn't matter. UW pretty much dominated us that whole game last season. Why so you feel it is vital to have Derrick on the floor 35 minutes when we have Duane and Carlino on the floor...as we've faced limited full court pressure and are now playing zone D?

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that. In fact, I didn't mention Derrick at all. I said we need balanced scoring and needed more strength inside. We really could have used someone like Otule today on offense. Hopefully Luke can add that. We won't beat good teams if we can't be effective inside and out.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:31:21 PM
Trust me...there is a good chunk of out fan base too that is very tired of now 2 coaches ignoring the actual production of the player on the floor. If we are going to be a zone team, you eliminate Derricks one asset - on ball man to man D. We aren't getting pressed. Carlino and Duane shown they can take care of the rock as needed. We don't need a ball protector on the floor with Duane and Carlino. We need a guy who can knock down shots to help with the spacing. For the last time WI sagged off Derrick...which allowed his guy to hedge toward Carlino and Duane making it even more difficult to get decent looks fr the perimeter. The midgets team certainly was able to hear good teams and it was much smaller than the current MU team. Why??  Because Mo, Cooby could make shots.

Really??? Every thread?

We voted to get rid of you!!!

Ners, we're in agreeance that Derrick shouldn't play 35 a game. But until JJJ and Burton step up, I'm not sure what choice we have.

I would also tone down the "Wojo will learn" comments. Definitely makes you come off in the wrong way. Probably distracts from you message. Also, I noticed you made a post about how Duane, JJJ, and Burton had rough games. Thank you for acknowledging multiple players having issues. Now maybe if you could spend more of your time on those issues, instead of beating this one into the ground, you might get more people listening.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:00:44 PM
Again, who are you putting in there instead of Derrick?  JjJ?  He has been brutal the last couple of games, was terrible on defense and drove the lane with no plan whatsoever.  Cohen?  He's going to be great but he's a freshman and just hasn't put it together yet.  Dawson?  I think we've said enough there.

Derrick was in no way the problem today and I can't believe we are having this argument again.  Derrick didn't help but he was not the issue.

I would rather see JJJ or Deonte in there. They are a threat to score and open things up for the rest of the team.

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:05:18 PM
When did I say Duane Wilson wasn't bad tonight for going to the rim. However he didn't airball literally every shot he took. I found that part kind of funny and I found it kind of sad.

Duane and Derrick played almost the exact same game today and including air balls (Duane put at least one into the side of the backboard).  To dismiss Derrick because of your perspective without applying the same standard to Duane means you are just doing your best Ners impression.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 06, 2014, 04:10:03 PM
Ners, we're in agreeance that Derrick shouldn't play 35 a game. But until JJJ and Burton step up, I'm not sure what choice we have.

I would also tone down the "Wojo will learn" comments. Definitely makes you come off in the wrong way. Probably distracts from you message. Also, I noticed you made a post about how Duane, JJJ, and Burton had rough games. Thank you for acknowledging multiple players having issues. Now maybe if you could spend more of your time on those issues, instead of beating this one into the ground, you might get more people listening.

Ners is just impatient that a guy like Wojo isn't as astute as him when it comes to coaching.

He is just becoming a condescending poster not only to everyone here, but also to coaches and experts.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:10:49 PM
Duane and Derrick played almost the exact same game today and including air balls (Duane put at least one into the side of the backboard).  To dismiss Derrick because of your perspective without applying the same standard to Duane means you are just doing your best Ners impression.

Derrick's the one who put it into the side of the backboard =(

And no I'm not being Ners, I'm just stating an opinion on I found it incredibly funny that Derrick literally didn't touch the rim today with the ball.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 06, 2014, 04:10:34 PM
I would rather see JJJ or Deonte in there. They are a threat to score and open things up for the rest of the team.

I mean this seriously, go back and watch this game when JjJ was in there.  I like the kid and think he will put it together but he was awful on both ends of the floor.  If we think Derrick's drives were wayward, JjJ was all over the place and never helped the offense.  He was almost worse on the defensive end.

Burton, I'd be fine with but for some reason he is just not playing aggressively right now.  However, I'd be fine with Burton getting some of Derrick's minutes but I don't think it's a cure all.

Playing Derrick less than 35 minutes is something I'd like to see, but it's not going to result in MU playing better at this point given the other options.....pretty sure Wojo would have done that if it was the case.

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:13:59 PM
Derrick's the one who put it into the side of the backboard =(

And no I'm not being Ners, I'm just stating an opinion on I found it incredibly funny that Derrick literally didn't touch the rim today with the ball.

Believe me, no one will mistake you for Ners. There is certainly criticism to be made  - fairly - of players' games.

With Ners it is just Derrick 24 / 7 / 365

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:13:59 PM
Derrick's the one who put it into the side of the backboard =(

And no I'm not being Ners, I'm just stating an opinion on I found it incredibly funny that Derrick literally didn't touch the rim today with the ball.

Duane did as well.  And had at least 3 shots that didn't get to the rim.

And what's funny is his two free throws hit the rim so you aren't even right about that...pretty funny stuff though.

Quote from: brandx on December 06, 2014, 04:08:32 PM
Really??? Every thread?

We voted to get rid of you!!!

No kidding.  He was going to leave.  Or so he said.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 04:18:39 PM
No kidding.  He was going to leave.  Or so he said.

Ric Flair move. 

I read threads like this and I can't help but wonder if people actually watch the game.

Sagging on Derrick - fiction in this game.  If you say that you are blatantly lying or you don't know who was guarding him. Let me help you out. The Wisconsin defenders were guarding Derrick to the three point line as you would expect. The only defenders who were not were Kaminski and Dekker. Why because the don't need to guard him close nor should they.   They have him by a foot so the were playing his speed knowing they could block a shot if needed. Anyone who has played basketball knows this how you defend

Both Duane and Derrick had trouble finishing in the lane. Derrick had bad shots but his number of air balls were in line as to others

JJJ did nothing today. He took bad shots. He turned the ball over.  This game proved why he hasn't been getting PT. Saying he should more time is ridiculous. There is no way you can honestly look at this game and say he needs more time

When MU had Cohen, Burton and JJJ on the court MU went on a 5 minute drought.

We get that you don't like Derrick but at least don't make up bs.  The biggest detriment to the team was height and bad shot selection. There is zero credibility left if you say this lose was on Derrick. Zero. zilch and it screams of someone trying to prove themselves right versus true game breakdown and screams in the face of facts.

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:13:59 PM
I found it incredibly funny that Derrick literally didn't touch the rim today with the ball.

Well he made a free throw that caught rim.  He also shot a three that caught rim.  And I believe one his wild layup attempts rolled off the rim too.  So not exactly.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:17:25 PM
Duane did as well.  And had at least 3 shots that didn't get to the rim.

And what's funny is his two free throws hit the rim so you aren't even right about that...pretty funny stuff though.

Free throws aren't shots though, they are free throws. And only one hit the rim, he swished the other one through surprisingly. Maybe he felt bad for how hard the ball hit the rim on the first shot and didn't want to touch it anymore.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:14:54 PM
I mean this seriously, go back and watch this game when JjJ was in there.  I like the kid and think he will put it together but he was awful on both ends of the floor.  If we think Derrick's drives were wayward, JjJ was all over the place and never helped the offense.  He was almost worse on the defensive end.

Burton, I'd be fine with but for some reason he is just not playing aggressively right now.  However, I'd be fine with Burton getting some of Derrick's minutes but I don't think it's a cure all.

Playing Derrick less than 35 minutes is something I'd like to see, but it's not going to result in MU playing better at this point given the other options.....pretty sure Wojo would have done that if it was the case.

I will admit I cringed when JJJ sagged down to triple team and they kicked out the ball to his guy for an open 3. Yes his drives were not a thing of beauty, however my point is he can actually get the drives off and he demands someone to guard him. Same with Deonte. They just give us more threats to score and when they were in the game we did make a fairly decent run.

Derrick has a big role for sure but I just think it should be more narrowly focused.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 06, 2014, 04:26:41 PM
Well he made a free throw that caught rim.  He also shot a three that caught rim.  And I believe one his wild layup attempts rolled off the rim too.  So not exactly.

Derrick didn't make a shot today though. One of his wild layups got scooped up by taylor and put back in, which I think should have been counted as an alley opp. Gotta give the kid a break eh?

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:29:18 PM
Derrick didn't make a shot today though. One of his wild layups got scooped up by taylor and put back in, which I think should have been counted as an alley opp. Gotta give the kid a break eh?

Changing what you stated.  You exact quote above is:

*Derrick literally didn't touch the rim today with the ball*

I guess three's don't count either?

Quote from: BallBoy on December 06, 2014, 04:22:34 PM
I read threads like this and I can't help but wonder if people actually watch the game.

Sagging on Derrick - fiction in this game.  If you say that you are blatantly lying or you don't know who was guarding him. Let me help you out. The Wisconsin defenders were guarding Derrick to the three point line as you would expect. The only defenders who were not were Kaminski and Dekker. Why because the don't need to guard him close nor should they.   They have him by a foot so the were playing his speed knowing they could block a shot if needed. Anyone who has played basketball knows this how you defend

Both Duane and Derrick had trouble finishing in the lane. Derrick had bad shots but his number of air balls were in line as to others

JJJ did nothing today. He took bad shots. He turned the ball over.  This game proved why he hasn't been getting PT. Saying he should more time is ridiculous. There is no way you can honestly look at this game and say he needs more time

When MU had Cohen, Burton and JJJ on the court MU went on a 5 minute drought.

We get that you don't like Derrick but at least don't make up bs.  The biggest detriment to the team was height and bad shot selection. There is zero credibility left if you say this lose was on Derrick. Zero. zilch and it screams of someone trying to prove themselves right versus true game breakdown and screams in the face of facts.

This is pretty much how I saw it.  UW pushed their defense on every guard out as far as they could.  MU drove past them repeatedly but couldn't do anything cause of the size issues.

But of course that's Derrick's fault.   ::)

Was Derrick bad on offense? Yeah. But outside of Carlino, who wasn't? We couldn't make layups. Derrick couldn't, Duane couldn't, Steve couldn't, some of these guys couldn't even get into the lane. So what was it about driving into that lane that made everyone outside Carlino so inefficient? Freaking size. We constantly drove into the trees as though we expected them to give. This game was all about size.

Honestly, anyone not encouraged by today, I seriously question what they were expecting. We hung with this team. Give us a couple late threes and we could have won. We didn't, they made foul shots, too bad, so sad.

Put Chris Otule out there today and we would have won. We had no physical presence down low. That was the difference.

But again, what did you honestly expect?

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 04:14:54 PM
I mean this seriously, go back and watch this game when JjJ was in there.  I like the kid and think he will put it together but he was awful on both ends of the floor.  If we think Derrick's drives were wayward, JjJ was all over the place and never helped the offense.  He was almost worse on the defensive end.

Burton, I'd be fine with but for some reason he is just not playing aggressively right now.  However, I'd be fine with Burton getting some of Derrick's minutes but I don't think it's a cure all.

Playing Derrick less than 35 minutes is something I'd like to see, but it's not going to result in MU playing better at this point given the other options.....pretty sure Wojo would have done that if it was the case.

I will admit I cringed when JJJ sagged down to triple team and they kicked out the ball to his guy for an open 3. Yes his drives were not a thing of beauty, however my point is he can actually get the drives off and he demands someone to guard him. Same with Deonte. They just give us more threats to score and when they were in the game we did make a fairly decent run.

Derrick has a big role for sure but I just think it should be more narrowly focused.

Exactly.   Wiscy perimeter players extended their defense because of their height advantage at the rim.   MU's guards kept challenging and kept losing.   Height made a lot of difference.   Now, if someone wanted to make the argument that our guys needed to do a better job of kicking it out once they got past their man and into the teeth of the defense, requiring a recovery and getting the defense shifting, a la the 09-10 team, that would be an interesting discussion.     Because today, our guards (and Juan) would get into the paint and make the decision (inevitably futile) to challenge the, wait for it, height.  Which turned out to be a problem.  

Quote from: brandx on December 06, 2014, 04:16:31 PM
Believe me, no one will mistake you for Ners. There is certainly criticism to be made  - fairly - of players' games.

With Ners it is just Derrick 24 / 7 / 365

You want to be fair critiquing player's games??  Then start being fair on Derrick.  I wasn't on Derrick after TN game - praised his performance.  Yet, because it is such an outlier of a performance, and it was 11 points with 2 assists and 2 rebounds - it felt like a holy grail of a game for those of you who have stood by him.  Yet, let's get real  - 11 points, 2 assists and 2 rebounds is about what you SHOULD expect out of a 30-35 minute per game PG.  With Derrick it's a major outlier.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 04:18:39 PM
No kidding.  He was going to leave.  Or so he said.

I'm sure you and the other clowns who continue to prop up Derrick's shoddy performances would love it if I left - because for roughly 28 out of 32 games - you look idiotic for suggesting he isn't the primary problem with last year's team, and now this years..

I've never seen a player produce less in 30 years of playing/watching basketball given as many minutes as Derrick has gotten this year and last.  Never seen it before.  Not to mention continuing to be given all that playing time as a 40% FT shooter and 10% 3pt shooter at the PG position.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 04:42:35 PM

I'm sure you and the other clowns who continue to prop up Derrick's shoddy performances would love it if I left - because for roughly 28 out of 32 games - you look idiotic for suggesting he isn't the primary problem with last year's team, and now this years..

I've never seen a player produce less in 30 years of playing/watching basketball given as many minutes as Derrick has gotten this year and last.  Never seen it before.  Not to mention continuing to be given all that playing time as a 40% FT shooter and 10% 3pt shooter at the PG position.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 04:42:35 PM
Figured I'd give the board their chance to speak as I've ruffled a lot of feathers here.  I'll voluntarily go away if the majority of the board votes me off.  (And I think it will be a close vote.)

Have fun with it Scoop.

Yap yap yap yap yap.

The poll ended 161 yes, 139 no.  I know you have some crazy logic when it comes to basketball that makes you superior to the likes of Buzz and Wojo, so maybe you have some mathematical genius that guys like Albert Einstein simply just don't understand, but it seems to me that the "majority" voted yes.

Only real men who can win 1-on-1 basketball games stay true to their words!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 04:42:35 PM
I'm sure you and the other clowns who continue to prop up Derrick's shoddy performances would love it if I left - because for roughly 28 out of 32 games - you look idiotic for suggesting he isn't the primary problem with last year's team, and now this years..

He's the *primary* problem with this year's team?  Hardly.  

You realize that both JJJ and Deonte are shooting worse than him right, and both look completely lost on defense.  Derrick isn't very good, but it is very obvious why Derrick is playing the minutes he is.  No alternatives - just like last year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 03:06:38 PM
And one team plays a 3 guard lineup (MU) and the other a 2 guard lineup. Which means you better be getting some production from that 3rd guard. We get none. Zilch. Sorry..I stand corrected - 1 point in 35 minutes.

Game. Set. Match. Wojo will eventually figure it out.

Good lord.  Even when presented with statistical evidence he is wrong, Ners can never admit that he is wrong.  I'm sure this thread will run a hundred plus posts with him continuing to belabor a point that was proven wrong.

Quote from: TSmith34 on December 06, 2014, 04:54:41 PM
Good lord.  Even when presented with statistical evidence he is wrong, Ners can never admit that he is wrong.  I'm sure this thread will run a hundred plus posts with him continuing to belabor a point that was proven wrong.

Take it up with Ken Pomeroy:

O Rating:
JJJ - 0 (10 minutes played - minimum playing time needed to get an O-rating assigned.
Derrick - 34 (in 35 minutes played)
Duane - 46 ( 31 minutes)
Carlino - 89 (34 minutes played)
Cohen - 243 (10 minutes played)

Wisconsin:
Jackson:  62  (32 minutes)
Koenig: 90 (24 minutes)
Gasser:  141 (31 minutes)

Guard play was a huge problem for our team today.  Cohen should have been left in to finish the game out.  Fatal mistake to put Derrick back in for him the last 6 minutes.

So let me get this right. You aren't a fan of Derrick?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:22:18 PM
Guard play was a huge problem for our team today.  Cohen should have been left in to finish the game out.  Fatal mistake to put Derrick back in for him the last 6 minutes.

You do realize MU was within 6 with 1:10 left in the game and the ball when Carlino had an unforced error that cost MU the game right?  Again, Derrick ain't great but there isn't much in the way of alternative and fatal mistake would generally be a very inaccurate statement.

Cohen should have gotten more minutes, I will grant you that.  I don't think his O-rating stays that high though if he has 6 minutes straight at the end of the game.

Quote from: brandx on December 06, 2014, 05:28:08 PM
So let me get this right. You aren't a fan of Derrick?

No - I'm a fan of Derrick's - about 4 games per year.  Hopefully he can achieve 4 again this season.  With conference play coming up and our opponents knowing they get a rover defender - it will be interesting to see.

Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

Cohen played so much better today within the zone defense than he did in Orlando.  If he continues on that stretch, I think he will get more minutes.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 05:32:51 PM
You do realize MU was within 6 with 1:10 left in the game and the ball when Carlino had an unforced error that cost MU the game right?  Again, Derrick ain't great but there isn't much in the way of alternative and fatal mistake would generally be a very inaccurate statement.

Cohen should have gotten more minutes, I will grant you that.  I don't think his O-rating stays that high though if he has 6 minutes straight at the end of the game.

That's great we were down 6 with 1:10 left.  What did Derrick contribute to that?  Burton/Cohen got it as close as 2, after being down 10 when they entered the game.  They left the game down 5 points at roughly the 7:30 mark.  Point is they whittled the deficit, and contributed - thereafter, we did nothing to reduce deficit, and of course Derrick didn't contribute anything in those last 5 minutes (or the 30 prior he played)

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 06, 2014, 05:35:21 PM
Cohen played so much better today within the zone defense than he did in Orlando.  If he continues on that stretch, I think he will get more minutes.

I noticed Wojo put him at the top of the zone instead of on the wing like he did in Orlando.  I guess that made a difference.  His length would be bothersome to regular size guards out there.

No loss is a good loss, especially to a rival, but I'm surprised by all the negativity on the board.  There were bad things in the game, but there were more positives to take away.

Positives in order of significance:
1. Wojo can flat out coach.  This was the biggest question I had going into this season.  The last 3 weeks, even in losses, Wojo has shown an ability to prepare a team and make adjustments on the fly.  He is getting young players safe minutes and putting his teams in the best position to win.  I think Fischer will have a bigger impact than I estimated simply because of how it gives Wojo more flexibility and coaching options.  His defensive moves, especially today were outstanding.
2.  Duane Wilson is the real deal.  He will be a fantastic player for MU the next four years and by the last ten games of the season this year he will likely be our leading scorer(barring injury).
3.  Carlino is a player that needs to be on this team, he is our best offensive player right now.
4.  Fischer is now eligible.  Even if he is a complete stiff he will shield the lane and force post defenders to be honest giving the guards an opportunity to finish at the rim.  Also reduces the pressure on the guards which should improve our 3pt shooting.
5.  Cohen will be good he just needs experience.
6.  Burton hasn't played anything close to his abilities.  He will play well, I think when Fischer is back that will open things for Burton.  He also needs patience given what he's gone through.

Negatives:
1.  JjJ just hasn't been very good on either end.  He needs to play better to force Wojo to play him more and Derrick less.
2.  Just not enough height and talent on the roster this year.  Not going to get fixed this year.
3.  Steve Taylor just isn't the player he was as a freshman right now.  I don't know if it's mental or what but he is a relative non-factor right now.
4.  Derrick Wilson is playing 35 minutes a game.  The minutes are justified because there aren't other options but the fact that it has to happen is an issue because there isn't enough offense there.

A lot more to be happy about than pissed.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 06, 2014, 05:42:19 PM
Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

Problem last year was Jake and Derrick together, Ners is right about that.  This year Carlino and Derrick together is sooooo much better.  Backcourt this year is way better than last year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

Seems so simple - yet some just cannot understand. Cuz..... you know, Derrick.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 05:47:08 PM
Problem last year was Jake and Derrick together, Ners is right about that.  This year Carlino and Derrick together is sooooo much better.  Backcourt this year is way better than last year.

He was right last year about our backcourt, especially when people were bashing Gardner and Jamil (as frustrating as he was at times) for not being even better players to hide Derrick and Jake's ineptitude.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 06, 2014, 05:42:19 PMBrew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

But last year we didn't have guards who could drive to the rim and we didn't have guards who could hit threes. The teams were radically different. Last year's strengths were this year's weaknesses, but this year's strengths were last year's weaknesses. Last year has absolutely no bearing on this year's game. Take this game for what it was, because it was a completely different game.

Our problem had nothing to do with our perimeter game. Anyone saying otherwise is a complete and utter moron. We shot 7/32 inside the arc. That's SEVEN for freaking THIRTY-TWO. We were completely impotent inside the arc. Was Derrick part of that problem? Yes, he was 0/4. But Duane was 1/8, Juan was 0/4, and Jajuan was 0/2. They kept taking on Wisconsin's bigs and kept losing. Those four guys went 1/18 from 2-point range.

Yes, the guards didn't come through, but it was because of a lack of size. Because they kept going at Wisconsin's big men and losing. Because they attacked guys that treated them like flies on the wrong end of a swatter.

Yes, last year we had Otule, but we didn't have slashers that could reliably get into the lane. Derrick and Juan weren't as aggressive, we didn't have Duane or Carlino, and the one guy we had that was really capable of attacking the hoop, Mayo, was suspended. Last year we had the big men to make guards like these effective, but we didn't have guards like these.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 06, 2014, 05:44:37 PM
I noticed Wojo put him at the top of the zone instead of on the wing like he did in Orlando.  I guess that made a difference.  His length would be bothersome to regular size guards out there.

Excellent point.

Also...

Cohen...11 mins...1/1 shooting
Burton...10 mins...1/1 shooting

Great, they both scored the only shot they took, you might want to be a little more assertive than say, Derrick, who barely pressed the issue and still took a shot every 7 minutes.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 06, 2014, 05:42:19 PM
Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:37:02 PM
That's great we were down 6 with 1:10 left.  What did Derrick contribute to that?  Burton/Cohen got it as close as 2, after being down 10 when they entered the game.  They left the game down 5 points at roughly the 7:30 mark.  Point is they whittled the deficit, and contributed - thereafter, we did nothing to reduce deficit, and of course Derrick didn't contribute anything in those last 5 minutes (or the 30 prior he played)

Far be it from me to tell you facts that stand in the way of your narrative but look at the box score again.

At the 8:57 mark Derrick goes out with the score 33-35 Wisco.  At the 6:52 mark Derrick comes back in with the score 33-42 Wisco.  At the 2:05 mark Derrick goes out with the score 38-44 Wisco.  Score stays that way until the Carlino turnover.

Derrick being out didn't cause UW to go on a run per se and Derrick being in didn't cause MU to come back per se.  But there is no way you can blame Derrick for scoring when he's not in the game!!!

This is where you lose all credibility, you literally invent facts for your narrative.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

So much wrong with this post, I don't even have the time to respond.  JjJ was verifiably worse than Derrick.  There is no disputing this.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

Are you really going to go back to the "guys who aren't playing much *must* be better" reasoning from last year?  

Because this year kinda shows that it wasn't the case last year.  

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 03:24:58 PM
UW's 1-3:
26 points
9-30 fg (30%)
5-21 3 pt fg (24%)
3-5 ft (60%)
10 rebounds
10 assists
1 steal
1 block
6 turnovers

MU's 1-3:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

UW's 4-5:
23 points
8-22 fg (36%)
3-9 3 pt fg (33%)
4-4 ft (100%)
25 rebounds
4 assists
6 steals
5 blocks
5 turnovers

MU's 4-5:
14 points
5-15 fg (33%)
2-4 3 pt fg (50%)
2-3 ft (67%)
17 rebounds
1 assist
0 steals
0 blocks
2 turnovers

Yup, looks like it the 1-3 positions were why we lost this one guys!  It wasn't the size, it was their 1-3 positions killed our 1-3 positions!

Revolutionary stuff here.

Could it be that MU's 4-5 did relatively poorly because of the guard(s) that MU had on the floor? Stats in a vacuum are, well, untrustworthy.

As we get closer to conference play, we will encounter coaches who know our players. We will encounter coaches who know which players they can sag on.

When Luke comes in, he can't be as effective as he could be if there is an extra defender in the paint.

Can we please not try the last year vs this year thing? The teams are completely different. Different coaches, vastly different personnel, different schemes. What went wrong in Madison last year was completely different than what went wrong at the BC today, and for completely different reasons.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

We won't be competitive this year because we were competitive against two highly ranked teams? Fits in with the rest of your analysis.

And to almost everyone here - it would get worse.

Wojo's highwater scoring mark was 6.9 ppg. But then Coach K is obviously is no equal with Ners when it comes to coaching knowledge.

Quote from: brandx on December 06, 2014, 06:12:46 PMWojo's highwater scoring mark was 6.9 ppg. But then Coach K is obviously is no equal with Ners when it comes to coaching knowledge.

That's why he's the coach's pet, because Wojo sees himself in Derrick.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 06, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
That's why he's the coach's pet, because Wojo sees himself in Derrick.

;D

Ners, you continue to say, "It couldn't get any worse than playing Cohen, JJJ, and Deonte in Derrick's minutes."  So just answer this simple question with a simple yes or no.  You really think both Buzz and Wojo are so clueless that despite seeing those guys practice every single day they can't figure that out?  I mean, it's clearly that easy, right?  Just a simple yes or no answer to that will suffice.  Are Buzz and Wojo both completely clueless?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

You really need to stop digging. The fact that you have created three theories that are so off the wall just took your credibility negative.  Wojo is not playing Derrick because he is his pet. He is playing him because he is the best option. Every player you mentioned hasn't shown anything that says the deserve more time.  The inaccurate facts don't help you either.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 06, 2014, 06:35:59 PM
Ners, you continue to say, "It couldn't get any worse than playing Cohen, JJJ, and Deonte in Derrick's minutes."  So just answer this simple question with a simple yes or no.  You really think both Buzz and Wojo are so clueless that despite seeing those guys practice every single day they can't figure that out?  I mean, it's clearly that easy, right?  Just a simple yes or no answer to that will suffice.  Are Buzz and Wojo both completely clueless?

When Steve Wojo calls Derrick a terrific player - he loses all credibility. As you point out he's Wojo 2.0, and therefore a lot of reasons why Wojo would have a personal liking and bias toward a player who reminds him of himself. It isn't that far fetched. Of course Wojo shot much better from 3 and FT Line, and was a true, elite defender - Derrick?  Any wagers he doesn't win Big East Defensive Player of Year?  

It's even more maddening this year than last because at least you could make the case or try with some validity to say las year that Buzz didn't have a better option at PG (with regard to ball security), but this season??  Come on man. Carlino and Duane are plenty capable.  Dawson would be a huge upgrade to Derrick. Why?  Because ask Travis Diener:  He's a great athlete that can knock down shots.

We all saw Dawson make some 3s, midrange and FTs at a much better clip than Derrick last season. This year with the zone D, and Duane/Carlino on team - Dawson at minimum deserves a chance at 10-20 minutes to show what he can do in a game.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 07:15:02 PM
When Steve Wojo calls Derrick a terrific player - he loses all credibility.

Wow, 8 games in and Wojo has already lost all credibility. Almost makes you miss Buzz eh Ners?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 06, 2014, 07:22:07 PM
Wow, 8 games in and Wojo has already lost all credibility. Almost makes you miss Buzz eh Ners?

Sorry - I should have clarified that with loses all credibility with regard to the reality of Derrick as a player. It's a lie. He isn't terrific. And I think even those here who support Derrick would agree he isn't terrific. It's simply more of the same we saw with Buzz last year - trying to publicly prop up a guy (who they love as a person/intangibles) who's performance on the floor suggests the exact opposite. Buzz used elite, game changer etc. it's totally exaggerated/embellished hyperbole. And that's where I call BS.

Height wasn't the only reason Wisconsin won, but it was a main reason, if not the main reason.

We couldn't get ANYTHING going to the basket. Duane made several aggressive drives, the kind he scored on in Orlando, and he never had a chance today against Kaminsky, Hayes, Dekker and Duggan. Anybody who watched the game saw that. Juan has had nice success going into the lane and scoring; never had a chance today. Derrick occasionally can hit that running whatever he calls it going to his right; never had a chance today. Except for 1 or 2 times, Carlino failed miserably when he tried to take the ball to the rim. Burton had no chance inside in his short stints.

Could the guards have made up for Bucky's height with an extraordinary shooting game, the kind NJIT apparently had against Michigan? Sure, but they didn't, and that might have been partly because Gasser (6-4), Koenig (6-4) and Jackson (6-3) also had height advantages on the perimeter.

I certainly am not going to join Ners' harrangue against Derrick and others because, frankly, I came out of this game pretty encouraged. Bucky is one of the 5 best teams in the country; we won't see any others like them.

And you know what? We did no worse against Wisconsin than Wisconsin did against Duke.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 06, 2014, 05:44:59 PM
3.  Steve Taylor just isn't the player he was as a freshman right now.  I don't know if it's mental or what but he is a relative non-factor right now.

I'm starting to think there really was some degree of truth that his knee didn't come back last year and contributed to Buzz not playing him.  We know Buzz wanted defense-first players, and Steve didn't seem to have it figured out.  Maybe some of that was simply lack of mobility because of the knee.

These year he doesn't remotely seem to have the athleticism he had as a freshman.  No explosiveness, no jumping ability.

Quote from: MU82 on December 06, 2014, 07:51:50 PM
Height wasn't the only reason Wisconsin won, but it was a main reason, if not the main reason.

We couldn't get ANYTHING going to the basket. Duane made several aggressive drives, the kind he scored on in Orlando, and he never had a chance today against Kaminsky, Hayes, Dekker and Duggan. Anybody who watched the game saw that. Juan has had nice success going into the lane and scoring; never had a chance today. Derrick occasionally can hit that running whatever he calls it going to his right; never had a chance today. Except for 1 or 2 times, Carlino failed miserably when he tried to take the ball to the rim. Burton had no chance inside in his short stints.

Could the guards have made up for Bucky's height with an extraordinary shooting game, the kind NJIT apparently had against Michigan? Sure, but they didn't, and that might have been partly because Gasser (6-4), Koenig (6-4) and Jackson (6-3) also had height advantages on the perimeter.

I certainly am not going to join Ners' harrangue against Derrick and others because, frankly, I came out of this game pretty encouraged. Bucky is one of the 5 best teams in the country; we won't see any others like them.

And you know what? We did no worse against Wisconsin than Wisconsin did against Duke.

I think you are making some good points above.

Buzz was intentionally throwing games and Wojo is playing Derrick because he is teacher's pet.

I'm stupider for reading this crap. 

Back to ignore.

Quote from: TSmith34 on December 06, 2014, 08:16:42 PM
Buzz was intentionally throwing games and Wojo is playing Derrick because he is teacher's pet.

I'm stupider for reading this crap. 

Back to ignore.

Ouch. That hurts. My Saturday night is ruined!  I'm going to spend the rest of it trying to rationalize a justification for why Wojo played Derrick more minutes than anyone to get that 1 point, as well as Buzz doing the same last season. Further I'm going to see if I can somehow logically comprehend why on this years team with 2 additional PG options in Duane and Carlino, and given our transition to zone defense - why he's played a guy 4 minutes all year that shoots 4 times better from the 3, and based on this seasons percentage 3 times better from the FT line. Agh!  Perhaps it is to yield that 1 steal per game and 3 Rebounds per game in 30 minutes of action.

Someone has lost credibility but it isn't Wojo. How many ways can it be said, the Derrick/ Dawson saga and it's variants are over. Beat that dead horse but little do you realize it simply is not going to move. Get on with your life my friend. Often repeats of the same old story are meaningless at this time, the point has been made. It takes wisdom to know when to let go.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 08:49:49 PM
Ouch. That hurts. My Saturday night is ruined!  I'm going to spend the rest of it trying to rationalize a justification for why Wojo played Derrick more minutes than anyone to get that 1 point, as well as Buzz doing the same last season. Further I'm going to see if I can somehow logically comprehend why on this years team with 2 additional PG options in Duane and Carlino, and given our transition to zone defense - why he's played a guy 4 minutes all year that shoots 4 times better from the 3, and based on this seasons percentage 3 times better from the FT line. Agh!  Perhaps it is to yield that 1 steal per game and 3 Rebounds per game in 30 minutes of action.

I feel your frustration. If I had never seen Awesome Dawson play, I would agree with the Derrick-crowd, ie, Dawson must suck really bad and DeWil is our best option. If I had never seen Dawson play, I would think that he is just another Jamal Ferguson--a low-major player who we made a mistake recruiting.

But I have seen Dawson play. And I like what I saw. And so did Davante, calling him the best PG that we had (before DuWil got injured, mind you).

My hypothesis is that Buzz didnt play Dawson more because Derrick was the better PG at the time and gave us the best chance of winning at the time, despite Dawson having an undisputably higher ceiling. I advocated Dawson playing more because I wanted him to reach that ceiling asap. Though it was a risk that Dawsons ability would surpass Derrick's before the end of the season. I said Brent should take that risk, but Brent knew hed be leaving MU so I guess he decided that taking the risk wasnt worth it. Brent needed to maximize his market value especially at the end of the season.

My general agreement and empathy with Ners notwithstanding, I don't think Wojo is playing Derrick because of some irrational fondness for him or some feeling of nostalgia that Derrick gives to Wojo. Rather, I think he plays Derrick because Derrick is "efficient" that is, conservative. I would even say overly conservative. Derrick is the relatively safe choice, at least so it seems. Dawson, OTOH, is perhaps seen as a riskier bet. There isnt much tape on him, he may make silly mistakes in practice, and he has less experience than DeWil.

So, as with Brent, I think Wojo is not playing Dawson because Wojo, perhaps like most other college coaches, is risk-averse. Perhaps even more so since this is his first year on the job. Hed rather go 9-9 in conference play with certainty/DeWil than risk going either 2-16 or 14-4 in conference play with Dawson. (Yes, I believe that DeWil has that much of an effect on the offense/flow of the game).

Wojo somewhat took a risk going with zone defense and it paid off. This gives me hope that Wojo is wiling to take risks. Although, based on what we've seen last year, I'd hardly consider giving all (yes, all) of DeWils minutes to Dawson risky.

I sincerely hope that if/when it becomes abundantly clear that we are out of the tourney talk, that Wojo pivots 180 and switches 100% to Dawson (at DeWils expense), as it will pay dividends for next year.

Quote from: Eldon on December 06, 2014, 10:13:43 PM
So, as with Brent, I think Wojo is not playing Dawson because Wojo, perhaps like most other college coaches, is risk-averse. Perhaps even more so since this is his first year on the job. Hed rather go 9-9 in conference play with certainty/DeWil than risk going either 2-16 or 14-4 in conference play with Dawson. (Yes, I believe that DeWil has that much of an effect on the offense/flow of the game).

A coach is simply going to play the players that he thinks is going to win the game in front of them.

And regardless, the question might not actually be why Dawson isn't playing over Derrick, but why is he isn't playing over JJJ - who has arguably been  worse this year.

Quote from: Eldon on December 06, 2014, 10:13:43 PM
I feel your frustration. If I had never seen Awesome Dawson play, I would agree with the Derrick-crowd, ie, Dawson must suck really bad and DeWil is our best option. If I had never seen Dawson play, I would think that he is just another Jamal Ferguson--a low-major player who we made a mistake recruiting.

But I have seen Dawson play. And I like what I saw. And so did Davante, calling him the best PG that we had (before DuWil got injured, mind you).

My hypothesis is that Buzz didnt play Dawson more because Derrick was the better PG at the time and gave us the best chance of winning at the time, despite Dawson having an undisputably higher ceiling. I advocated Dawson playing more because I wanted him to reach that ceiling asap. Though it was a risk that Dawsons ability would surpass Derrick's before the end of the season. I said Brent should take that risk, but Brent knew hed be leaving MU so I guess he decided that taking the risk wasnt worth it. Brent needed to maximize his market value especially at the end of the season.

My general agreement and empathy with Ners notwithstanding, I don't think Wojo is playing Derrick because of some irrational fondness for him or some feeling of nostalgia that Derrick gives to Wojo. Rather, I think he plays Derrick because Derrick is "efficient" that is, conservative. I would even say overly conservative. Derrick is the relatively safe choice, at least so it seems. Dawson, OTOH, is perhaps seen as a riskier bet. There isnt much tape on him, he may make silly mistakes in practice, and he has less experience than DeWil.

So, as with Brent, I think Wojo is not playing Dawson because Wojo, perhaps like most other college coaches, is risk-averse. Perhaps even more so since this is his first year on the job. Hed rather go 9-9 in conference play with certainty/DeWil than risk going either 2-16 or 14-4 in conference play with Dawson. (Yes, I believe that DeWil has that much of an effect on the offense/flow of the game).

Wojo somewhat took a risk going with zone defense and it paid off. This gives me hope that Wojo is wiling to take risks. Although, based on what we've seen last year, I'd hardly consider giving all (yes, all) of DeWils minutes to Dawson risky.

I sincerely hope that if/when it becomes abundantly clear that we are out of the tourney talk, that Wojo pivots 180 and switches 100% to Dawson (at DeWils expense), as it will pay dividends for next year.

You are out of your mind.

Quote from: ATEllen MU Warriorson on December 07, 2014, 06:58:28 AM
You are out of your mind.

No more out of his mind than those of you who think Derrick should be getting more than 10-15 minutes.  Here's the deal:

Derrick: Tied for 3rd most minutes (with Steve) on team after Juan and Carlino, yet Pomeroy has him in the "Limited Roles" classification of players.

Derrick's O-Rating is the 2nd worst on the team - 93.7.  JJJ at 88.5.  We again are talking about a 4th year senior, that played max minutes last season, and has shown just minor improvement over last season.

So, Coach Wojo:  You play a guy the 3rd most minutes on the team, yet he ranks 8th out 9 guys in O-Rating and Pomeroy calls him a Limited Role player?

I have NO problem with Derrick playing 10-15.  But there is NO reason he should be playing 30-35.  Give those minutes to Cohen.  See what Dawson can do on the floor.  JJJ is struggling - but the future of your program are those guys and the contribution toward winning you are getting from your vet in no way merits max minutes.  (Once again.)

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 02:41:25 PM
No more out of his mind than those of you who think Derrick should be getting more than 10-15 minutes

Please find me one person who WANTS derrick to be playing more than 10-15. Nearly everyone has said that's what they all prefer and hope that he would be playing.

The reason both Buzz and Wojo are playing Derrick is clear.  He is the best option for several reasons.  The predominant one being:

For this years squad and last, we have a bunch of players who:

Are not leaders.
Are careless with the ball on offense. (aka Decision making)
Do not care about defense.

Derrick is the best leader, decision maker and consistent defender that we have.  Since those are the 3 team weaknesses, he is starting to lead by example. 

I definitely only want Derrick to play for 10 minutes. But I don't want his minutes given away. I want one of the younger guys be it Deonte, Dawson, or JjJ to rise up and take the minutes from him. Earn the minutes with practice time and performance on the court. Until you can do that, you don't deserve to be playing more.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 02:41:25 PMI have NO problem with Derrick playing 10-15.  But there is NO reason he should be playing 30-35.  Give those minutes to Cohen.  See what Dawson can do on the floor.  JJJ is struggling - but the future of your program are those guys and the contribution toward winning you are getting from your vet in no way merits max minutes.  (Once again.)

Dawson is clearly not an option. It doesn't matter why. None of us know, but if he was an option he'd be playing.

I've started before, we are playing a 2 PG offense. That means 80 minutes for point guards. Even if Carlino and Duane play 30 minutes each, that means 20 minutes for Derrick. There is no one else. Cohen is not a point guard. Burton and Jajuan are not point guards. And there will be times Carlino and Duane play the 3, so that's more minutes for Derrick. No matter how much you don't like the guy, there is no one else. We don't have other bodies.

And you do NOT play for the future in December. For the love of god any coach that is giving up on the season before a single conference game is played should be fired on the spot, and playing for the future is exactly that. You play to win this year, period, and if Wojo believes Derrick gives him the best chance now he sure as hell better play him. Go 8-4 in the non-con, have a winning conference record, you have a shot at postseason play.

If all you care about is the future, why are you watching this year? Mail it in for six months and Derrick will be gone, all those future guys will be a little closer to PT, and you can make good on your poll promise (though I would have voted no myself). Otherwise, maybe just TRY to enjoy the process, knowing there will be bumps (and Derrick) along the way.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 07, 2014, 03:27:57 PM
Dawson is clearly not an option. It doesn't matter why. None of us know, but if he was an option he'd be playing.

And you do NOT play for the future in December. For the love of god any coach that is giving up on the season before a single conference game is played should be fired on the spot, and playing for the future is exactly that. You play to win this year, period, and if Wojo believes Derrick gives him the best chance now he sure as hell better play him. Go 8-4 in the non-con, have a winning conference record, you have a shot at postseason play.

If all you care about is the future, why are you watching this year? Mail it in for six months and Derrick will be gone, all those future guys will be a little closer to PT, and you can make good on your poll promise (though I would have voted no myself). Otherwise, maybe just TRY to enjoy the process, knowing there will be bumps (and Derrick) along the way.

Derrick and Matt are mentoring the younger guys, preparing them for the future.  I hope a couple of them prove they have it.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 07, 2014, 03:27:57 PM
Dawson is clearly not an option. It doesn't matter why. None of us know, but if he was an option he'd be playing.

I wouldn't say he's not an option. Since UT-Martin we have only played in close games. After ASU we have a stretch of three cupcakes. I bet Dawson will at least get some garbage minutes there.

I've never been one to rip on Derrick but he is so bad. I would much rather him have taken those wide open 3's than the circus shots he attempted last game. I don't see what he brings anymore, honestly. Especially now with the zone when you need length.

Now that Luke is eligible, I think you can start giving Derrick minutes to Duane and Carlino while playing Sandy and deonte more at the wing to give them a bigger lineup.

Quote from: ChitownJuan on December 07, 2014, 04:17:24 PM
I've never been one to rip on Derrick but he is so bad. I would much rather him have taken those wide open 3's than the circus shots he attempted last game. I don't see what he brings anymore, honestly. Especially now with the zone when you need length.

Now that Luke is eligible, I think you can start giving Derrick minutes to Duane and Carlino while playing Sandy and deonte more at the wing to give them a bigger lineup.

While I agree with the concept of giving less minutes to Derrick as we have more bodies available, Cohen and Deonte have at times looked completely lost in the zone. 

I would guess Derrick's minutes will decrease, but not substantially.

The problem with taking Derrick's minutes because he's not good enough is that the other options have been worse.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 07, 2014, 04:21:41 PM
The problem with taking Derrick's minutes because he's not good enough is that the other options have been worse.

I dont think Sandy has been worse. I also dont think Deonte has been given a fare shake whether that be because he is not mentally in it or for other reasons, he seems to be the victim of the "quick pull" this year. I wont even start with the Derrick vs. Dawson debate. Having Fischer able to play gives us another body which I can (hopefully) see less minutes to Derrick. Yes he may play hard, yes he may be a good kid but he is a senior who has not gotten substantially better and is really just not good to get the minutes he does. At least Cohen is a frosh and Deonte is only a sophomore is well. Let the kids get some run.

Sandy has been worse. He's a better shooter than Derrick for sure, but he's more tentative on offense and is just starting to get the zone. I love his potential, but as a complete two way player, Derrick is better right now.

And you don't give kids run just for the sake of it. I would love it of these guys could take away some of Derrick's minutes if they earned it. Thus far no one has been able to do that.

Quote from: ChitownJuan on December 07, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
I dont think Sandy has been worse. I also dont think Deonte has been given a fare shake whether that be because he is not mentally in it or for other reasons, he seems to be the victim of the "quick pull" this year. I wont even start with the Derrick vs. Dawson debate. Having Fischer able to play gives us another body which I can (hopefully) see less minutes to Derrick. Yes he may play hard, yes he may be a good kid but he is a senior who has not gotten substantially better and is really just not good to get the minutes he does. At least Cohen is a frosh and Deonte is only a sophomore is well. Let the kids get some run.

If you look at total game Sandy and Deonte have been worse, but not a lot.  Derrick will play less minutes with Fischer coming in and I think Burton will benefit from Fischer being in the line-up more than any other player on the roster.  Having said that, Burton hasn't really had a quick hook because he really hasn't been producing on either end to earn more minutes.

Derrick is very solid on defense and a known, albiet inconsequential, quantity on offense.  Cohen and Burton have issues on both ends, so Derrick plays.  Barring significant injury I think Derrick plays 5-8 minutes less a game by the end of the season as Cohen and Burton develop....but we aren't there yet.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 07, 2014, 05:38:50 PM
If you look at total game Sandy and Deonte have been worse, but not a lot.  Derrick will play less minutes with Fischer coming in and I think Burton will benefit from Fischer being in the line-up more than any other player on the roster.  Having said that, Burton hasn't really had a quick hook because he really hasn't been producing on either end to earn more minutes.

Derrick is very solid on defense and a known, albiet inconsequential, quantity on offense.  Cohen and Burton have issues on both ends, so Derrick plays.  Barring significant injury I think Derrick plays 5-8 minutes less a game by the end of the season as Cohen and Burton develop....but we aren't there yet.

I just feel like Deonte needs minutes to be effective. I feel like that's just his nature. That being said I don't think any of us realize what his mental state is right now. Derrick is a very good defender I would just like Wojo to explore some other combinations because everybody knows what Derrick is and is not.

(PS: Ners this is how you create an effective argument regarding Derricks playing time.)

Quote from: ChitownJuan on December 07, 2014, 05:46:19 PM
I just feel like Deonte needs minutes to be effective. I feel like that's just his nature. That being said I don't think any of us realize what his mental state is right now. Derrick is a very good defender I would just like Wojo to explore some other combinations because everybody knows what Derrick is and is not.

(PS: Ners this is how you create an effective argument regarding Derricks playing time.)

I absolutely agree with Burton's mental state as question mark right now.  He proved last year that he is legit, so attribute his issues this year to mental and lack of supporting height from other players.  With Fischer coming back that takes care of one of those things.  He'll get there.

And +1 billion to your last statement.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 07, 2014, 05:38:50 PM
If you look at total game Sandy and Deonte have been worse, but not a lot.  Derrick will play less minutes with Fischer coming in and I think Burton will benefit from Fischer being in the line-up more than any other player on the roster.

Great point about Burton. Right now he just gets swallowed up inside. Fischer should give him more space to work with and another guy down low he can dump there ball to. I really hope Deonte can start taking some more minutes.

Quote from: ChitownJuan on December 07, 2014, 05:46:19 PM
I just feel like Deonte needs minutes to be effective. I feel like that's just his nature. That being said I don't think any of us realize what his mental state is right now. Derrick is a very good defender I would just like Wojo to explore some other combinations because everybody knows what Derrick is and is not.

(PS: Ners this is how you create an effective argument regarding Derricks playing time.)

Four areas I would suggest Deonte, who has great potential, should work on:

1) Defense

2) Better shot selection

3) Protect the ball better

4) Take open three's


Comments?

Quote from: Class71 on December 07, 2014, 06:12:47 PM
Four areas I would suggest Deonte, who has great potential, should work on:

1) Defense

2) Better shot selection

3) Protect the ball better

4) Take open three's


Comments?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

Deonte Burton, 129 minutes, 11 rebounds for the year.  Maybe that is acceptable as a wing, it is certainly not acceptable from a PF.    If Luke's presence means that MU can live with that rebounding rate, maybe he will see the floor more. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 07, 2014, 04:19:31 PM

While I agree with the concept of giving less minutes to Derrick as we have more bodies available, Cohen and Deonte have at times looked completely lost in the zone. 

When watching a game on TV, it's not easy to focus on anything other than the ball because that's what the camera is on. But in the next game or two I am going to try to force myself to watch Marquette's zone, specifically what Derrick is doing well in it and what Cohen, JJJ and Deonte are doing poorly.

Quote from: MU82 on December 07, 2014, 06:35:56 PM
When watching a game on TV, it's not easy to focus on anything other than the ball because that's what the camera is on. But in the next game or two I am going to try to force myself to watch Marquette's zone, specifically what Derrick is doing well in it and what Cohen, JJJ and Deonte are doing poorly.

Lots of hands down, half-step late defensive rotations for both when they are weak side.  

Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2014, 06:21:13 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

Deonte Burton, 129 minutes, 11 rebounds for the year.  Maybe that is acceptable as a wing, it is certainly not acceptable from a PF.    If Luke's presence means that MU can live with that rebounding rate, maybe he will see the floor more. 

3.4 rebounds per 40 minutes, rebound to turnover ratio of 1:1, assist to turnover ratio of 1:5.5. Likely part of it is his mind being somewhere else, and certainly part of it is missing Ox and/or Chris. One thing for sure, we can forget those crazy notions about him leaving early for the NBA.

Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2014, 06:55:13 PM
Lots of hands down, half-step late defensive rotations for both when they are weak side.  

The bolded in particular.  There are possessions on defense that drive me absolutely mad when they're active with their bodies but not their hands, leading to passes going right past them when they could have easily been deflected if they were keeping their hands more active.

There are 3 things all basketball players learn about defense.

HANDS UP. ALWAYS.
NEVER, EVER GIVE UP THE BASELINE
BOX OUT. GOD GAVE YOU AN A$$.  Use it to box out.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 07, 2014, 04:21:41 PM
The problem with taking Derrick's minutes because he's not good enough is that the other options have been worse.

There are two other options that are markedly better at PG: Du. Wilson and Carlino. Since we are playing zone, Derrick's elite defense is not needed.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 07, 2014, 09:52:56 PM
There are two other options that are markedly better at PG: Du. Wilson and Carlino. Since we are playing zone, Derrick's elite defense is not needed.

Have you seen JjJ or Cohen on the wing?  Derrick and Juan are the only one that's have consistently played good defense on the wing in the 2-3.

And there isn't a PG in the traditional sense for Wojo.  Carlino and Du Wilson have the ball in their hands more than Derrick does when all three play together.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 07, 2014, 10:09:39 PM
Have you seen JjJ or Cohen on the wing?  Derrick and Juan are the only one that's have consistently played good defense on the wing in the 2-3.

And there isn't a PG in the traditional sense for Wojo.  Carlino and Du Wilson have the ball in their hands more than Derrick does when all three play together.

Derrick's Value Add D-Rating is the worst on the team - FYI.  And, there is so little playing time for JJJ and Cohen on the wing - to draw the conclusion that they haven't played consistently good defense in that wing position is suspect at best.  Both have much more length than Derrick, and length is always good to have in a zone D.  Ask Jim Boheim.   :)

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
Derrick's Value Add D-Rating is the worst on the team - FYI.  And, there is so little playing time for JJJ and Cohen on the wing - to draw the conclusion that they haven't played consistently good defense in that wing position is suspect at best.  Both have much more length than Derrick, and length is always good to have in a zone D.  Ask Jim Boheim.   :)

D ratings are next to useless when a team is playing a zone.  It is basically a meaningless stat.

Cohen was much better when he was up top in the zone.  That is where he is better off with his length.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
Derrick's Value Add D-Rating is the worst on the team - FYI.  And, there is so little playing time for JJJ and Cohen on the wing - to draw the conclusion that they haven't played consistently good defense in that wing position is suspect at best.  Both have much more length than Derrick, and length is always good to have in a zone D.  Ask Jim Boheim.   :)

Seriously?  You may be clinically insane at this point.  JjJ played only the wing in the zone against Wisconsin and was directly responsible for at least 2 if not 3 of Gasser's 4 3-pt shots.  Cohen only played on the top of the zone against Wisconsin.

Length is good, but it turns out if JjJ plays with his hands down and a step slow he's not better than Derrick on the wing despite that length.  JjJ had 10 minutes in the wing against Wisconsin, how much time does he need????  It's ok to admit Derrick is the better player on defense right now, I swear the sun will rise and the earth will continue to spin.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
Derrick's Value Add D-Rating is the worst on the team - FYI.  And, there is so little playing time for JJJ and Cohen on the wing - to draw the conclusion that they haven't played consistently good defense in that wing position is suspect at best.  Both have much more length than Derrick, and length is always good to have in a zone D.  Ask Jim Boheim.   :)

It is interesting that Derrick has the lowest value add D-rating on the team. I don't comprehend the stat completely, but I do believe that zone defense lessens the reliability of the stat because it places its emphasis on one on one defense instead of team defense.

I'm not throwing away the stat, you can't ignore data. But tell me honestly, watching them play, do you really believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you really believe that Jajuan Johnson is the second best defender on the team?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 08:31:20 AM
I'm not throwing away the stat, you can't ignore data. But tell me honestly, watching them play, do you really believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you really believe that Jajuan Johnson is the second best defender on the team?

MU is significantly worse on both ends when Jajuan plays.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 08:31:20 AM
I'm not throwing away the stat, you can't ignore data. But tell me honestly, watching them play, do you really believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you really believe that Jajuan Johnson is the second best defender on the team?

You could call it....the eye test

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 07:38:36 PM
Sorry - I should have clarified that with loses all credibility with regard to the reality of Derrick as a player. It's a lie. He isn't terrific. And I think even those here who support Derrick would agree he isn't terrific. It's simply more of the same we saw with Buzz last year - trying to publicly prop up a guy (who they love as a person/intangibles) who's performance on the floor suggests the exact opposite. Buzz used elite, game changer etc. it's totally exaggerated/embellished hyperbole. And that's where I call BS.

There are plenty of fans here and elsewhere that know that Derrick should not be getting the minutes at PG. It is only a few like TAMU and the Slurper that fail to recognize that Duane and Carlino should be getting most of those minutes at PG The only thing any body hangs their hat on with Derrick is that he is a great defender--which is pure BS, and we are now playing zone where he is average at best.
Now of course, we will still hear--but wait, but wait, Wojo and Buzz both cannot be wrong. Derrick is the man!!
Let's see, cannot score, cannot shoot FT's, cannot shoot beyond 10 feet, cannot penetrate and finish, cannot draw a defender 10 feet from the basket, cannot create, and does not have lateral quickness. All of these areas both Carlino and Duane are superior to Derrick. Breakdown at PG should be Carlino 20-25 minutes, Duane 8-12 minutes and Derrick the balance.
But Hey--Derrick is the man.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 07, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
Derrick's Value Add D-Rating is the worst on the team - FYI.  And, there is so little playing time for JJJ and Cohen on the wing - to draw the conclusion that they haven't played consistently good defense in that wing position is suspect at best.  Both have much more length than Derrick, and length is always good to have in a zone D.  Ask Jim Boheim.   :)

It seems like we're coming full circle on this topic.

Last season, you cried for Dawson, and claimed he hadn't been given enough minutes to really evaluate.

Now we're saying the same thing for JJJ & Cohen.

At some point, we all have to admit that we see VERY little of these guys compared to the coaches. I assume the coaches have a good feel for who should play and who shouldn't. Now, that doesn't mean Wojo is infallible, but your infatuation with "anybody but #12" is replaying itself again this season.

We're right back in the same spot: Derrick might be the best option in a list of mediocre/bad options.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 09:21:10 AM
There are plenty of fans here and elsewhere that know that Derrick should not be getting the minutes at PG. It is only a few like TAMU and the Slurper that fail to recognize that Duane and Carlino should be getting most of those minutes at PG The only thing any body hangs their hat on with Derrick is that he is a great defender--which is pure BS, and we are now playing zone where he is average at best.
Now of course, we will still hear--but wait, but wait, Wojo and Buzz both cannot be wrong. Derrick is the man!!
Let's see, cannot score, cannot shoot FT's, cannot shoot beyond 10 feet, cannot penetrate and finish, cannot draw a defender 10 feet from the basket, cannot create, and does not have lateral quickness. All of these areas both Carlino and Duane are superior to Derrick. Breakdown at PG should be Carlino 20-25 minutes, Duane 8-12 minutes and Derrick the balance.
But Hey--Derrick is the man.

Duane and Carlino are getting 29 and 31 MPG respectively, and they are often times out there with Derrick at the same time.  Derrick being out there with Duane and Carlino allow those two to work off the ball and get open for looks coming off screens and double screens. 

Dropping Derrick's minutes would not mean a 1:1 relationship with Duane/Carlino's minutes increasing.  It would mean a guy like JjJ is getting more time.  Are you really telling me this team would be in a better situation with JjJ getting Derrick's minutes?

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 09:21:10 AM
There are plenty of fans here and elsewhere that know that Derrick should not be getting the minutes at PG. It is only a few like TAMU and the Slurper that fail to recognize that Duane and Carlino should be getting most of those minutes at PG The only thing any body hangs their hat on with Derrick is that he is a great defender--which is pure BS, and we are now playing zone where he is average at best.
Now of course, we will still hear--but wait, but wait, Wojo and Buzz both cannot be wrong. Derrick is the man!!
Let's see, cannot score, cannot shoot FT's, cannot shoot beyond 10 feet, cannot penetrate and finish, cannot draw a defender 10 feet from the basket, cannot create, and does not have lateral quickness. All of these areas both Carlino and Duane are superior to Derrick. Breakdown at PG should be Carlino 20-25 minutes, Duane 8-12 minutes and Derrick the balance.
But Hey--Derrick is the man.

Hey Willie, you may have noticed that I have been advocating all season for Derrick to get about ten minutes a game. You may also notice that I have been advocating for Carlino to get max minutes and Duane to get about 30 minutes a game since after the Ohio State game. I'll also remind you that we play a three guard offense, meaning you have Carlino, Duane, and ????. This is not an argument of Carlino/Duane v. Derrick. It is an argument of which of the remaining players can step up and take Derrick's minutes from that third guard spot.

You read scoop my dear Willie, but you do not observe.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 07:33:23 AM

D ratings are next to useless when a team is playing a zone.  It is basically a meaningless stat.

Really?  Of course it is meaningless when the stat reports data that flies in the face of the ridiculous argument that Derrick's defense is SO valuable within our zone.

Anyone that is being real about this knows Derrick's biggest asset is his on ball, man to man defense.  Derrick doesn't play passing lanes any better than average, nor are his anticipation skills any better than average, two skills which zone defenses actually exacerbate.   The zone eliminates his biggest asset, and actually illuminates his average/below average D-skills (passing lanes/anticipation.) (Which is why it should come as no surprise his D-Rating is the worst on the team.)

There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 09:40:16 AM
There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Ners, you made a really sound argument for why Derrick shouldn't be playing as many minutes as he is. Then you ruin it with this crap. Your attitude of "I'm smarter than everyone else, including professional coaches" is what people respond negatively to. Well that, and ignoring all other players and pinning every problem on Derrick.

Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 10:00:40 AM
Ners, you made a really sound argument for why Derrick shouldn't be playing as many minutes as he is. Then you ruin it with this crap. Your attitude of "I'm smarter than everyone else, including professional coaches" is what people respond negatively to. Well that, and ignoring all other players and pinning every problem on Derrick.

Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

Ners likes to use stats when they help him present his case. He likes to use the "eye test" instead of stats when that helps him present his case.

It's a very good way for him to guarantee that he never is wrong!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 09:40:16 AM
Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Just like the loyalty Wojo showed Mayo?

Again, we don't need to come up with a bunch of advanced scenarios on why Derrick is playing.

It's likely that Wojo thinks he's the best option, at least for now.

Boom. Solved.

If JJJ catches fire and is awesome the rest of the season, then DW will likely be a back-up guard and will get 20mpg or less.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 09:40:16 AM
Really?  Of course it is meaningless when the stat reports data that flies in the face of the ridiculous argument that Derrick's defense is SO valuable within our zone.

Anyone that is being real about this knows Derrick's biggest asset is his on ball, man to man defense.  Derrick doesn't play passing lanes any better than average, nor are his anticipation skills any better than average, two skills which zone defenses actually exacerbate.   The zone eliminates his biggest asset, and actually illuminates his average/below average D-skills (passing lanes/anticipation.) (Which is why it should come as no surprise his D-Rating is the worst on the team.)

There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

We have talked about D rating and its limitations before.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the items you are talking about (passing lanes/anticipation) unless the only stat you measure is steals.  However I would disagree with you with regards to anticipation.  Derrick is where he needs to be on the defensive side of the ball within the zone.  He is very smart in that regard.

WRT your last paragraph, TAMU is right.  We are now on a second season, and a second coach, of excuse making for why Derrick is getting the minutes he is.  At some point you may want to come to the conclusion that you are simply wrong - as flawed as he is, Derrick is simply better than the alternatives.

Anyone know where I can get the game tape from the MU-Wisconsin game?  I didn't DVR but I am more than happy to take the time to cut up the tape to watch Derrick in the zone defense and see if he really is as terrible as Ners portrays.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 10:00:40 AM
Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

I really really really want this answered.

I think I know a lot about basketball.  I played through high school, could've played non-scholarship D3 ball, got an official's license (though I haven't reffed for a very long time) and still coach grammar school ball.  I don't understand Derrick Wilson's popularity with the last two coaches strictly based on his attributes as a player.  That being said, both Buzz and Wojo know infinitely more than I do about basketball.  If one of them said Derrick should play over more deserving guys, I might attribute it to something other than pure performance.  But now that a second coach is doing the same thing all over again, I'm willing to admit that Derrick must offer something on the basketball court that I don't understand.  They are probably right and I am probably wrong.   

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 09:40:16 AM
Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Actually, if there are better (and younger) options on the team this is very easy.  The worst he can do is quit and at that if he is a bad player then maybe that makes your team better.  Unless of course he makes others around him better as a valued member of the team.....

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Fair enough. But, is he worse shooter than Derrick?  Hard to say but I don't think so.

Wait just one minute! I thought Derrick shot 25,000 threes this past summer?

Quote from: tower912 on December 06, 2014, 03:19:14 PM
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588356

Skilled size matters.  

As I have heard continuously from appreciative ladies for years

Not sure where to put this Hokie post, but here it is:

Re: The difference between this years basketball team and last seasons   Reply
As a huge Hokie basketball fan - It is simple.

We don't have height, we turn the ball over, and we are terrible from the free throw line.  We are one of the most inefficient teams in the country because of the turnovers and poor free throw shooting - we just throw away possessions.  We also can't rebound because of our lack of size - which means we give other teams multiple possessions.

The issues will get fixed with player development and when better players come to the program.

The team has improved - they force more turnovers and actually run offensive sets and get good shots.
12/8 9:50 AM | IP: Logged

LOL

Quote from: theburreffect2 on December 06, 2014, 04:05:18 PM
When did I say Duane Wilson wasn't bad tonight for going to the rim. However he didn't airball literally every shot he took. I found that part kind of funny and I found it kind of sad.

Even Albert and Anthony finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

Quote from: keefe on December 08, 2014, 11:30:46 AM
Even Albert and Kellogg finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

What would you do differently?

Quote from: keefe on December 08, 2014, 11:30:46 AM
Even Albert and Kellogg finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

How much more successful were JjJ and Duane in driving the lane?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
Hey Willie, you may have noticed that I have been advocating all season for Derrick to get about ten minutes a game. You may also notice that I have been advocating for Carlino to get max minutes and Duane to get about 30 minutes a game since after the Ohio State game. I'll also remind you that we play a three guard offense, meaning you have Carlino, Duane, and ????. This is not an argument of Carlino/Duane v. Derrick. It is an argument of which of the remaining players can step up and take Derrick's minutes from that third guard spot.

You read scoop my dear Willie, but you do not observe.

You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 11:34:27 AM

What would you do differently?

I think I finally figured this whole Derrick Wilson debate and why it's raged on into a second season now.

Ners and others cannot imagine such an offensively limited PG playing large minutes at the D1 level.  Therefore, by default the other players HAVE to be better than what they're witnessing.

Others on this forum suggest that since he's playing as much as he is it would indicate that the coaching staff feels there are no other alternatives.

Which is met with the "How could they be any worse?" response and the next thing you know is we have 27,312 individual posts regarding the same damn topic over and over and over.

This really is becoming laughable at this point.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 11:34:27 AM

What would you do differently?

Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 11:45:02 AM
You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

What has JjJ done to make you think he's better than Derrick?  Do you honestly trust Duane and Carlino to run this offense without turning the ball over at a healthy clip?

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 11:45:02 AM
You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

What about JjJ's 10 minutes on Saturday tells you that he should get 10 more minutes on the court?  Point to a play or a statistic that shows his value to get an additional 10 minutes.  Hell show me in the last 5 games where JjJ was better than Derrick.

For those in the bench Derrick crowd I do think you will see him playing fewer minutes with Fischer eligible, it'll allow more 2 guard sets as Juan plays the 4 and Burton the 3.

Quote from: g0lden3agle on December 08, 2014, 11:51:08 AM
What has JjJ done to make you think he's better than Derrick?  Do you honestly trust Duane and Carlino to run this offense without turning the ball over at a healthy clip?

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  I think Duane and Carlino can run the offense just fine, the question is who is playing the 3rd guard in a 3 guard set.

Quote from: keefe on December 08, 2014, 11:50:18 AM
Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

I don't know that the other options are any better.

If you give Wilson's minutes to JJJ/Cohen, then you might hear Anthony and Albert saying stuff like "Ill-advised shot by the frosh." or something similar.

Wojo is certainly not infallible, but again, it seems likely that he's trying to make the best of a limited situation.

If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 08, 2014, 11:52:07 AM
What about JjJ's 10 minutes on Saturday tells you that he should get 10 more minutes on the court?  Point to a play or a statistic that shows his value to get an additional 10 minutes.  Hell show me in the last 5 games where JjJ was better than Derrick.

For those in the bench Derrick crowd I do think you will see him playing fewer minutes with Fischer eligible, it'll allow more 2 guard sets as Juan plays the 4 and Burton the 3.

This is ultimately what I'm hoping for as well.  More 3 forward sets as opposed to 3 guard sets.  That's really banking on Fischer being able to play some significant minutes out the gate though.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 08, 2014, 11:56:09 AM
If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

And Scoop

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 08, 2014, 11:56:09 AM
I don't know that the other options are any better.

If you give Wilson's minutes to JJJ/Cohen, then you might hear Anthony and Albert saying stuff like "Ill-advised shot by the frosh." or something similar.

Wojo is certainly not infallible, but again, it seems likely that he's trying to make the best of a limited situation.

If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 12:04:57 PM

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

+∞

Quote from: CTWarrior on December 08, 2014, 11:03:10 AM
I think I know a lot about basketball.  I played through high school, could've played non-scholarship D3 ball, got an official's license (though I haven't reffed for a very long time) and still coach grammar school ball.  I don't understand Derrick Wilson's popularity with the last two coaches strictly based on his attributes as a player.  That being said, both Buzz and Wojo know infinitely more than I do about basketball.  If one of them said Derrick should play over more deserving guys, I might attribute it to something other than pure performance.  But now that a second coach is doing the same thing all over again, I'm willing to admit that Derrick must offer something on the basketball court that I don't understand.  They are probably right and I am probably wrong.   

This is kind of where I am. I couldn't have played even D3 ball and I've been reffing and coaching for several years, but I have a similar level of "expertise." And I generally agree with what you say here about Derrick and his coaches -- first Buzz and now Wojo obviously have concluded that their team has a better chance for success with Derrick on the floor than without Derrick on the floor, and they see him waaaaay more than any of us do.

That doesn't mean you and I have to change what we think would be optimal, but what we think doesn't matter much because Wojo foolishly forgot to call us- ha!

Quote from: keefe on December 08, 2014, 11:50:18 AM
Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

I agree with this and I got a kick out of Marv's inflections in describing, "another WILD shot by Wilson." Sometimes he got the Wilsons mixed up (which is very unlike Marv, the best play-by-play man in basketball history), but either way he knew the attempts were wild.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 12:04:57 PM

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

Exactly, and here is where everybody needs to pay attention:



I don't think this is more complicated than that.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 08, 2014, 11:46:08 AM

I think I finally figured this whole Derrick Wilson debate and why it's raged on into a second season now.

Ners and others cannot imagine such an offensively limited PG playing large minutes at the D1 level.  Therefore, by default the other players HAVE to be better than what they're witnessing.

Others on this forum suggest that since he's playing as much as he is it would indicate that the coaching staff feels there are no other alternatives.

Which is met with the "How could they be any worse?" response and the next thing you know is we have 27,312 individual posts regarding the same damn topic over and over and over.

This really is becoming laughable at this point.

Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2014, 12:58:17 PM
Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

Exactly. When Buzz played Derrick almost 4 times more minutes than John D, he was stubborn, an idiot, throwing games. And when he played Juan and Deonte about the same number of minutes, it was more of the same.

This year's coach has played Derrick 60 times more minutes than John D and Juan twice as many minutes as Deonte. Guess we've gone from one stubborn idiot to an even bigger one.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 06, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

I did not watch the game live, and read a large amount of posts here before I did.  We were much more competitive than I thought from reading this board.  When Carlino lost that ball down 4 late, that could easily have been called a foul on UW, and then it would've been very tight to the finish.  But size was a big deal.  Even though they didn't get a ton of second chance points, they got a lot of second chances, while we got next to none.  Part of that is the zone, part of that is height.

Our penetrators couldn't get to the rim because of size as well.  Say what you want about Wisconsin, but they played a smart, disciplined defense against us and always had at least one big body, usually 2, to thwart our drives.  I would like to see our penetrators dish the ball more on drives, rather than just throwing random off balance, low percentage shots toward the rim.

Quote from: CTWarrior on December 08, 2014, 01:36:44 PM
Our penetrators couldn't get to the rim because of size as well.  Say what you want about Wisconsin, but they played a smart, disciplined defense against us and always had at least one big body, usually 2, to thwart our drives.  I would like to see our penetrators dish the ball more on drives, rather than just throwing random off balance, low percentage shots toward the rim.

I'm in agreement, JjJ, Derrick, Duane, and to a certain extend Carlino were all guilty of this.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2014, 12:58:17 PM
Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

Wait ... there's a "Ners crowd"?

Quote from: g0lden3agle on December 08, 2014, 09:31:36 AM
Duane and Carlino are getting 29 and 31 MPG respectively, and they are often times out there with Derrick at the same time.  Derrick being out there with Duane and Carlino allow those two to work off the ball and get open for looks coming off screens and double screens. 

Dropping Derrick's minutes would not mean a 1:1 relationship with Duane/Carlino's minutes increasing.  It would mean a guy like JjJ is getting more time.  Are you really telling me this team would be in a better situation with JjJ getting Derrick's minutes?

What I am telling all the Derrick lovers is that he is a huge offensive liability-huge. What part of that do you not see. JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer. However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes. But I guess you cannot read and comprehend either. Derrick offers nothing offensively. We play zone. He is not needed for 35 minutes a game. Give those minutes to others. RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

But because a few hardheads that do not get it still want to settle for a .500 team with him at the point--then have at it. Because that is the direction you have accepted.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

This may be the funniest thing I have ever read on Scoop.

Willie,

I get your point and somewhat agree with parts of your premise but you really should consider proof reading before you emphasize your point by taking a known slogan for literacy and capitalizing it as 'RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL'.

The irony is too much.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
This may be the funniest thing I have ever read on Scoop.

Speling is important, to.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
What I am telling all the Derrick lovers is that he is a huge offensive liability-huge. What part of that do you not see. JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer. However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes. But I guess you cannot read and comprehend either. Derrick offers nothing offensively. We play zone. He is not needed for 35 minutes a game. Give those minutes to others. RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

But because a few hardheads that do not get it still want to settle for a .500 team with him at the point--then have at it. Because that is the direction you have accepted.

When the other two starting guards in our three guard starting lineup are capable of scoring loads of points any given night, forgive me for being ok having Derrick out there with them, as he's not going to make many mistakes during his time out there on the court.

JjJ is more athletic, and has the POTENTIAL to be a better scorer.  Has he really proven much since that first game of the year?  Playing time is earned, and he (and others) have clearly not done enough on the court, be it game time or practice time, to earn those minutes away from Derrick.

Quote from: g0lden3agle on December 08, 2014, 02:44:18 PMPlaying time is earned, and he (and others) have clearly not done enough on the court, be it game time or practice time, to earn those minutes away from Derrick.

That's my RADE on it as well.

My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer.

I wish this were true.

Hell, I'm sure Wojo wishes it were true.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

Again, we're back to the same debate.

I assume the coaching staff that sees these kids play for hours per day have a pretty good feel for this. They might be wrong sometimes, but the idea that they have some sort of magic bullet sitting on the bench is naive.

I doubt there is a steamin' willie beamen on this team.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

Only explanation - Buzz and Wojo were wrestlers. ;)

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer.

I don't think this is actually true at this point. JjJ has been a much larger offensive liability to start the season. I also think Derrick is the better athlete. Have you seen the guns attached to those shoulders? I think JjJ has the potential to be a better scorer and athlete than Derrick. But outside of the UT-Martin game, he hasn't shown it. Hell, he barely has a better 3P% than Derrick and a worse FG%. At least Derrick doesn't turn it over on nearly half of his possessions.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes.

Who? All that's left is Deonte, Cohen, and Dawson. Dawson can't even get off the bench. And Deonte and Cohen have been needed to play the four because of how tiny we are. Besides that, Deonte has not been good this season. I agree that he has a huge ceiling but for whatever reason, he hasn't been demonstrating it. Other than the occasional wide open three and the three thunderous dunks he's had, he has been an offensive liability. He turns it over even more than JjJ does. And he's a liability on the other side of the court, constantly out of position with his hands at his side.

I actually agree with you that Derrick has been playing too many minutes lately. I would have decreased them and given Cohen more run. He's looked pretty solid so far this season. But not the massive cuts that you are suggesting. Especially since we needed Sandy to backup Juan and Taylor.

Now that Luke is here, I expect that we will see less minutes from Derrick. Having a true center allows all of our players to play their natural positions and will keep us from HAVING to use the three guard lineup. It will still get used at times, but now that Deonte and Cohen aren't the only backups for the 4 and 5, we can afford to play them at the 3.

You are right Willie, Derrick playing 35 minutes a game probably means another 17-15ish season. But unless other players step up and take the minutes from him, there is nothing to be done. Don't be mad at Wojo for playing Derrick. Don't be mad at Derrick for being who he is. Don't be mad at the slurpers for agreeing with the coach. Be mad that the other players aren't playing up to their perceived potential and taking those minutes from Derrick.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 08, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

Hilarious! Bravo sir!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

1.  No.  What are the other options?
2.  No.  What are the other options?
3.  Just coach speak.  Are you seriously suggesting that Wojo lacks credibility 8 games into his career?
4.  As Canned said, same debate as last year.  I trust that the coaches know what they are doing.  I have seen nothing to suggest that it would be better with other options.
5.  I think Derrick has been fine within the zone.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 08, 2014, 02:57:10 PM
Again, we're back to the same debate.

I assume the coaching staff that sees these kids play for hours per day have a pretty good feel for this. They might be wrong sometimes, but the idea that they have some sort of magic bullet sitting on the bench is naive.

I doubt there is a steamin' willie beamen on this team.

Wojo himself knows from experience, and has said as much - that sometimes guys are just gamers - play better when the lights come on.  Now, he did qualify that statement with the fact that usually the guys who practice the best, play the best - yet that there are cases where you have guys who just play better under the lights.  And, I think most/many observers of all sports can realize this - how else do you explain the reality of clutch players??  Some very good players, aren't clutch - yet you have guys who on the whole, may not be as good as another guy - but are just clutch.  Big Shot Bob Horry.  Derek Fischer.  And a host of other players over the years.

We've all seen the Derrick under the lights - if he can give us 8ppg, 4 assists, 3 rebounds per game on respectable FG and FT shooting - I can live with him getting 30.  Just give me Cadougan numbers (which weren't great by any stretch - but a team can win with that type of production.)  But, if we can't get that on a consistent basis (which it doesn't seem we will), let's get some of the young guys more PT under the lights and see what happens.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 03:08:14 PM
Wojo himself knows from experience, and has said as much - that sometimes guys are just gamers - play better when the lights come on.  Now, he did qualify that statement with the fact that usually the guys who practice the best, play the best - yet that there are cases where you have guys who just play better under the lights.  And, I think most/many observers of all sports can realize this - how else do you explain the reality of clutch players??  Some very good players, aren't clutch - yet you have guys who on the whole, may not be as good as another guy - but are just clutch.  Big Shot Bob Horry.  Derek Fischer.  And a host of other players over the years.

We've all seen the Derrick under the lights - if he can give us 8ppg, 4 assists, 3 rebounds per game on respectable FG and FT shooting - I can live with him getting 30.  Just give me Cadougan numbers (which weren't great by any stretch - but a team can win with that type of production.)  But, if we can't get that on a consistent basis (which it doesn't seem we will), let's get some of the young guys more PT under the lights and see what happens.

Right, but the young guys HAVE gotten minutes. Cohen and JJJ have both gotten starts this season (if I recall correctly).

They have been good in spots, and terrible in some others.

If/When Cohen, JJJ and Burton start playing better than Derrick on a consistent basis, they will take his minutes.

EDIT: I see now that you are bringing up Dawson again, so I'm just going to bow out of this thread. Nothing left for me to add.

Enjoy, gentlemen!

Barring injury, Derrick is going to get  25-30 minutes a game.   It's like the weather.   You can't change it.  Relax and accept it.  You can spend another thousand posts railing against it, but it won't matter.   Until JJJ, Deonte, Dawson, get to a level where they seize the minutes from Derrick, he is going out there.   I think Derrick's minutes drop now, with some of them going to Fischer and Wojo running some more traditional sets.   But JJJ and Deonte have not shown enough defensively yet, even in the zone, to take minutes from Derrick.  

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 03:06:54 PM

1.  No.  What are the other options?
2.  No.  What are the other options?
3.  Just coach speak.  Are you seriously suggesting that Wojo lacks credibility 8 games into his career?
4.  As Canned said, same debate as last year.  I trust that the coaches know what they are doing.  I have seen nothing to suggest that it would be better with other options.
5.  I think Derrick has been fine within the zone.

1.  John Dawson?  He shoots much better from 3, midrange, and FT line than Derrick.

2.  John Dawson?  Same reason above - also go listen to Travis Diener's remarks prior to the season:  John's a guy who can help us.  A great athlete that can knock down shots.  (Remember 2 coaches may see things totally different - recall Wainwright imploring Mayo to go to Buzz for more PT.)  Hell the debates ensue here as to players pluses and minuses - it isn't at all foreign for that to exist on a coaching staff as well - but the Head Coach has final say.

3. I'm suggesting Wojo lacks credibility with regard to his statements on Derrick - much as Buzz did last year.  They are flat out exaggerations and B.S.  I am very please with Wojo, though we had great game plan against WI, he's adapted well, but he is completely wrong with regard to playing Derrick 30 minutes - at least last year with Buzz you could make a case as the only other potential PG on roster was Dawson (who's better as a 2G than point as a freshman as he did have some ball security issues.)  That's not the case on this year's team with Duane and Carlino.

4. Can you imagine what Derrick would show/look like if he got 10 minutes a game?  What kind of production do you think we'd see?  You make judgements on Cohen, JJJ, Dawson last season - on 10 minutes of playing time, and conclude they aren't nearly as good/ready/better option.  Give Derrick 10 a game and let's see what you'd have to say.  (It wouldn't be very pretty.)

5. I don't think Derrick has been bad at all in the zone - but, it mitigates his best asset as a player - on ball, man to man D.  (Which in my view is even more of a reason why we don't need him on the floor 30.)

1.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
2.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
3.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
4.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
5.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.

And with that, I am going to try REAL hard to no longer engage in Derrick debates with you any longer.  One year of silly theories about Buzz was enough.  So far you look to be going down the same path with Wojo this year.

Not interested.

RADING this thread is giving me a headache.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 03:15:38 PM

3. I'm suggesting Wojo lacks credibility with regard to his statements on Derrick - much as Buzz did last year.  They are flat out exaggerations and B.S.  I am very please with Wojo, though we had great game plan against WI, he's adapted well, but he is completely wrong with regard to playing Derrick 30 minutes - at least last year with Buzz you could make a case as the only other potential PG on roster was Dawson (who's better as a 2G than point as a freshman as he did have some ball security issues.)  That's not the case on this year's team with Duane and Carlino.

Hence, the reason we make fun of your comments.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 03:19:04 PM
1.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
2.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
3.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
4.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
5.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.

And with that, I am going to try REAL hard to no longer engage in Derrick debates with you any longer.  One year of silly theories about Buzz was enough.  So far you look to be going down the same path with Wojo this year.

Not interested.

I figured as much.  Hard to dispute the questions I asked.  Though I know you thought I was crazy last year at the beginning of the season when I said we'd have a rough year if Buzz didn't make a change.  And of course, you offered up:  Buzz's teams have always gotten better as the year goes on.  Sadly, last year, of course it didn't.  We missed the NIT.  With more returning experience than ever before on a Buzz team.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

No one. But my frustration would be aimed at the supposedly better players for not earning the playing time from Derrick. Also, having watched it, its worked better than I expected it would have.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

I think it is a fine strategy. Wojo and his staff emphasize the extra pass. Drive to the hoop, kick out to Derrick, pass to the other half of Duane/Carlino, easy three pointer. Works in theory, but our slashers weren't even making the kick out pass. I wondered during the game if Wojo was trying to get the trees into foul trouble.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

I think terrific can refer to a lot of different things. Derrick is a terrific person, a terrific defender, a terrific caretaker PG, and a terrific leader. He is much less than terrific at a lot of other things. And I know you don't put value on leadership (even though you put value on swagger) but coaches and players do. And no, I don't think this damages Wojo's credibility at all. I know we previously had a coach who liked to put down his own team but most coaches tend to build up their own players.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

The coaches do explore. Its called practice. They have a pretty good idea of what they would get. If players continued to play the way they have been, I think our defense would suffer significantly. I think we would have committed more fouls (forcing Derrick to play more anyway). I think we would force more turnovers, but we would also turn it over significantly more, negating any advantage gained. I think we would have lost the Georgia Tech game. Other results would have remained the same but Tennessee would have been more of nailbiter.

Now if players start playing up to potential, its a whole different story. Another thing to keep in mind is our team's height (bringing it back to the original topic, booyah!). Juan has been getting 32 minutes per game and Taylor has been getting 29. That leaves 19 minutes a game that need to be covered by Deonte and Cohen. There is no one else who can play those minutes. That limits the amount that they can be replacing Derrick. Not only that, but Wojo has to protect Deonte and Cohen in case there is foul trouble. He can't afford all of his "forwards" getting into early foul trouble. So that probably led to them sitting more than maybe they should have. Now that Luke is here, I bet this changes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

Takes it away? No.  Makes him a more average defender? Yes. But Derrick is never out of position in the zone and his hands are always up. Not something that can be said about some of the others. Fortunately, I think that's an easy fix.

I answered yours. Now answer mine if you would. I only have two.

1) Why is all of your anger and frustration directed at Derrick? He certainly deserves a lot of the blame for our struggles. But he's not the only one. Why not spend at least a little time critiquing the game of Deonte, JjJ, Cohen, Duane, Carlino, Anderson, or Taylor? Everyone of our players has significant issues IMHO. Taylor can't hit bunnies. Carlino shoots us out of games almost as much as he shoots us into them. Duane takes even more ill fated drives than Derrick does and tries Jimmer range threes at times that don't call for them. Anderson seems afraid to shoot from deep even if he's hitting 46% of them. Plenty of critiques to go around but Derrick is the only one you mention. Why?

2) Most people assume that coaches play the players who are playing the best. Being frustrated with Derrick for not being good is understandable, but why no frustration at Dawson, JjJ, Deonte for not being good enough to take minutes from Derrick? You were questioning whether or not Deonte would leave for the NBA after this season. Clearly he hasn't played up to your expectations. Why no frustration?

I'll give you a reason why Derrick Wilson is on the court for 30 minutes a game Ners.

Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson have looked terrible with any sort of pressure bringing the ball up and neither one is a true point guard being fairly average ball handlers in the half court.

Derrick Wilson IMO (and knowing his shortcomings which I have defended you on many occasions), is the only really sure handed dribbler on this team and thus needs to be playing.

Unfortunately this team doesn't have an Arcidiacono style point guard on it's roster either this season or last season, because that's what you really want isn't it Ners?  You want a traditional pass first, shoot next, create off the dribble excellent ball handling point guard.  Guess what?  This team doesn't have that player on it Ners no matter how much you wish otherwise or how much you hope a different player on this roster could become that guy.  We don't have that kid on this team.

This team is what it is in regards to it's make up Ners.  Accept reality for what it is or stop watching for your own sanity until Marquette has the type of point guard you feel it should have.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 03:15:38 PM
2.  John Dawson?  Same reason above - also go listen to Travis Diener's remarks prior to the season:  John's a guy who can help us.  A great athlete that can knock down shots.  (Remember 2 coaches may see things totally different - recall Wainwright imploring Mayo to go to Buzz for more PT.)  Hell the debates ensue here as to players pluses and minuses - it isn't at all foreign for that to exist on a coaching staff as well - but the Head Coach has final say.

So when Wojo calls Derrick terrific its BS that makes him lose all credibility. But when Diener calls Dawson "a guy who can help us" its proof that Dawson should be playing over Derrick?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 02:51:39 PM
My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

2)  I may be wrong on this, but I feel like Derrick was driving the lane more than Carlino was during the Badger game.  I'm not a Derrick-basher, but I definitely agree that driving and kicking to Derrick would not make any sense.

3)  I would not question any coaches credibility by calling any player a "terrific player".  I don't know what else you would want/expect Wojo to say. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 03:19:04 PM
1.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
2.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
3.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
4.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
5.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.

And with that, I am going to try REAL hard to no longer engage in Derrick debates with you any longer.  One year of silly theories about Buzz was enough.  So far you look to be going down the same path with Wojo this year.

Not interested.

Exactly. Ignore the guy on this topic.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 03:19:04 PM
1.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
2.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
3.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
4.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
5.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.

And with that, I am going to try REAL hard to no longer engage in Derrick debates with you any longer.  One year of silly theories about Buzz was enough.  So far you look to be going down the same path with Wojo this year.

Not interested.

Amazing Sultan--and you are going down the same path with Derrick.
1. 17-15 with that PG. Mediocrity for the Sultan.
2. 17-15 with that PG. Mediocrity for the Sultan.
3. 17-15 with that PG. Mediocrity for the Sultan.
4. 17-15 with that PG. Mediocrity for the Sultan.
5. 17-15 with that PG. Mediocrity for the Sultan.
And with that, I too will not get involved with any thing more related to Derrick--until year's end, when I can eat crow or tell the Sultan I told you so. Wonder what it will be.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 08, 2014, 03:34:16 PM
I answered yours. Now answer mine if you would. I only have two.

1) Why is all of your anger and frustration directed at Derrick? He certainly deserves a lot of the blame for our struggles. But he's not the only one. Why not spend at least a little time critiquing the game of Deonte, JjJ, Cohen, Duane, Carlino, Anderson, or Taylor? Everyone of our players has significant issues IMHO. Taylor can't hit bunnies. Carlino shoots us out of games almost as much as he shoots us into them. Duane takes even more ill fated drives than Derrick does and tries Jimmer range threes at times that don't call for them. Anderson seems afraid to shoot from deep even if he's hitting 46% of them. Plenty of critiques to go around but Derrick is the only one you mention. Why?

2) Most people assume that coaches play the players who are playing the best. Being frustrated with Derrick for not being good is understandable, but why no frustration at Dawson, JjJ, Deonte for not being good enough to take minutes from Derrick? You were questioning whether or not Deonte would leave for the NBA after this season. Clearly he hasn't played up to your expectations. Why no frustration?

1) Right now we have no other options than Juan and Steve.  I've generally been pleased with Juan.  Steve?  Was hoping to see more out of him, and feel his minutes will get slashed with Luke coming into the fold.

We have such a limited sample size of game performance from JJJ, Cohen, Dawson - It's hard to be highly critical, as there isn't a lot of data.  With Derrick - there is a ton of data.  And it isn't good.  Plus he's a 4th year senior - he should be at minimum a very solid player by this time.  He's not the future, or part of the solution in the future, and in my view, he isn't good enough in the present to help us win games (other than an occasional outlier of a performance.)

With regard to Duane:  I'd much rather him take "ill fated drives and Jimmer range threes" than I'd rather see Derrick do the same.  Not to mention shooting free throws.  As I've said before - generally a guard who is a good FT shooter, is going to be a good perimeter shooter.  If you can't make FTs as a guard, you are really going to struggle to make 3's.  Also, with Duane, I've seen him GO LEFT AND FINISH WITH HIS LEFT AS A RED SHIRT FRESHMAN - Derrick?  He's only shown he can go to his right.  By now, you should be able to go to your off hand/side and finish as a senior in a high major program.

2) I felt Burton had/has a chance to consider going pro after his Junior season - I definitely expected more from him than what we've seen thus far this year.  Yet, given the passing of his Mom, along with Wojo only giving him limited playing time - again - it is hard to draw a formal conclusion as to what his true potential is/will be.

**As for the young guys not being "good enough" to take Derrick's minutes - I simply don't buy it.  What I do buy/subscribe to, is that there are certain types of players that coaches absolutely love - their whole make up - and Derrick fits that mold to a T.  High character, very hard working, likable kid, good defender, good leader.  Unfortunately, those traits don't necessarily offset a lack of overall talent - yet coaches can and do frequently get caught up in them and it can skew their judgement.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 03:56:30 PM
1) Right now we have no other options than Juan and Steve.  I've generally been pleased with Juan.  Steve?  Was hoping to see more out of him, and feel his minutes will get slashed with Luke coming into the fold.

We have such a limited sample size of game performance from JJJ, Cohen, Dawson - It's hard to be highly critical, as there isn't a lot of data.  With Derrick - there is a ton of data.  And it isn't good.  Plus he's a 4th year senior - he should be at minimum a very solid player by this time.  He's not the future, or part of the solution in the future, and in my view, he isn't good enough in the present to help us win games (other than an occasional outlier of a performance.)

With regard to Duane:  I'd much rather him take "ill fated drives and Jimmer range threes" than I'd rather see Derrick do the same.  Not to mention shooting free throws.  As I've said before - generally a guard who is a good FT shooter, is going to be a good perimeter shooter.  If you can't make FTs as a guard, you are really going to struggle to make 3's.  Also, with Duane, I've seen him GO LEFT AND FINISH WITH HIS LEFT AS A RED SHIRT FRESHMAN - Derrick?  He's only shown he can go to his right.  By now, you should be able to go to your off hand/side and finish as a senior in a high major program.

2) I felt Burton had/has a chance to consider going pro after his Junior season - I definitely expected more from him than what we've seen thus far this year.  Yet, given the passing of his Mom, along with Wojo only giving him limited playing time - again - it is hard to draw a formal conclusion as to what his true potential is/will be.

**As for the young guys not being "good enough" to take Derrick's minutes - I simply don't buy it.  What I do buy/subscribe to, is that there are certain types of players that coaches absolutely love - their whole make up - and Derrick fits that mold to a T.  High character, very hard working, likable kid, good defender, good leader.  Unfortunately, those traits don't necessarily offset a lack of overall talent - yet coaches can and do frequently get caught up in them and it can skew their judgement.  

I personally don't think age matters. If player 1 is a senior and a B level player and player 2 is a freshman and B- level player, you play the senior more minutes. Maybe if your team is truly out of contention for the playoffs, that's not true. But its way too early to determine that.

I understand the arguments of Steve/Juan being the only options and Duane/Carlino etc having enough good moments to ignore the bad ones. I just look at it differently. If our best player does something dumb, I'm gonna critique it. I can live with it for sure, but still gonna call it out. I am probably less harsh on Derrick than I could be, but only because my expectations are so low for him already (and because I know plenty of others have the "critiquing" of Derrick covered). I tend to be harsher on players I perceive to have higher ceilings. Derrick, I know is playing at about the highest level he possibly can. JjJ, I don't think is.

I don't think I agree that the younger guys aren't getting enough playing time (besides Dawson). Johnson, Burton, and Cohen have played in every game. JjJ is getting 20 mpg, Burton is getting 16 and Cohen is getting 12. How much more time do they need before you finally have enough data?

Your last paragraph. Are you saying that no matter how good the younger guys are, Wojo wouldn't play them over Derrick? I just don't believe that. He might have a slight bump but not one that couldn't be overcome.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 08, 2014, 03:19:04 PM
1.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
2.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
3.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
4.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.
5.  Wojo doesn't think so.  I trust his opinion more than yours.

And with that, I am going to try REAL hard to no longer engage in Derrick debates with you any longer.  One year of silly theories about Buzz was enough.  So far you look to be going down the same path with Wojo this year.

Not interested.

Here's the real problem...when it comes to basketball decisions on this team, I trust Wojo's opinion more than anyone on this site, myself included. It is pretty much the height of delusional arrogance to think any of us know better than the staff. Coaches that see these guys for hours per week are clearly going to have a better sense of who should play than the fanboys that see these guys for no more than 80 minutes per week.

We haven't seen Dawson in what, 9 months? Maybe he has the yips. Maybe he isn't grasping the system. Maybe Wojo simply doesn't trust him in close games. It's not like we've been playing in blow outs. Regardless, the guys that are best equipped to judge these guys are the ones that see them regularly, and that ain't us.

More than anything, though, isn't this supposed to be fun? People like Ners, Willie, and Wojo's Mojo, do they even like to watch Marquette? If I felt this bitter I can't imagine these games would be enjoyable.

Enjoy the process.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 08, 2014, 08:12:06 PM
Here's the real problem...when it comes to basketball decisions on this team, I trust Wojo's opinion more than anyone on this site, myself included. It is pretty much the height of delusional arrogance to think any of us know better than the staff. Coaches that see these guys for hours per week are clearly going to have a better sense of who should play than the fanboys that see these guys for no more than 80 minutes per week.

We haven't seen Dawson in what, 9 months? Maybe he has the yips. Maybe he isn't grasping the system. Maybe Wojo simply doesn't trust him in close games. It's not like we've been playing in blow outs. Regardless, the guys that are best equipped to judge these guys are the ones that see them regularly, and that ain't us.

More than anything, though, isn't this supposed to be fun? People like Ners, Willie, and Wojo's Mojo, do they even like to watch Marquette? If I felt this bitter I can't imagine these games would be enjoyable.

Enjoy the process.

Just to clarify:  I love watching Marquette hoops.  Love it even more when winning...but will watch every game win or lose.  Fans are entitled to disagree with a head coach's decisions - it happens all the time in sports.  You refer to it as delusional arrogance.  I disagree.  Coaches don't always have it right.  And nor do I of course.  Nonetheless, I'm entitled to my opinion - and I've never been more puzzled, confounded or baffled by a player getting max playing time in ANY sport, as I have Derrick.  It doesn't make me bitter.  Nor arrogant.  Just baffled...and obviously frustrated.

All that said, I can't wait till next year, but will watch every game this season and enjoy each game for what it is.

Maybe you need to watch Derrick less closely. That may seem counter intuitive, but maybe you are watching Derrick too close and too critically. If you watched guys like Burton and Cohen with the same critical eye, especially on defense, you would see what they do.

One of our biggest difficulties is overcoming seeing what we expect to see. When Derrick is average or below average, maybe your expectation causes you to see him as awful. And maybe when you watch guys you have higher hopes for you are more easily able to ignore similar flaws you see in Derrick.

I'm not saying Derrick is a terrific player, but I think he does bring some terrific attributes that few others on this team have. In the zone, he is one of the few players that can play on the perimeter or down low. He is a leader on a team without much experience. He protects the ball well while playing with others that can be turnover prone. And while he'll never be great on offense, he has improved his three point percentage and he looks a lot better next to more dynamic players like Carlino and Duane than he ever did next to Jake Thomas.

None of this is new, I'm sure you've heard it all before, but maybe if you look only at Derrick's positives while focusing more on the negatives of other guys you like it will make this season more enjoyable.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 08, 2014, 08:12:06 PM
Here's the real problem...when it comes to basketball decisions on this team, I trust Wojo's opinion more than anyone on this site, myself included. It is pretty much the height of delusional arrogance to think any of us know better than the staff. Coaches that see these guys for hours per week are clearly going to have a better sense of who should play than the fanboys that see these guys for no more than 80 minutes per week.

We haven't seen Dawson in what, 9 months? Maybe he has the yips. Maybe he isn't grasping the system. Maybe Wojo simply doesn't trust him in close games. It's not like we've been playing in blow outs. Regardless, the guys that are best equipped to judge these guys are the ones that see them regularly, and that ain't us.

More than anything, though, isn't this supposed to be fun? People like Ners, Willie, and Wojo's Mojo, do they even like to watch Marquette? If I felt this bitter I can't imagine these games would be enjoyable.

Enjoy the process.

Speaking for myself, I love Marquette basketball and I don't really know where you get off questioning my love of the team. Who the hell are you? What I don't love is watching is a PG who should be playing 5 minutes a game, well at least if the team had any aspirations of being a tourney team. Based on what I have seen this year, I am conceding that we will finish around .500 and not be playing in the tourney. I can't wait til next year and the future is looking bright.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 08, 2014, 09:38:19 PM
Speaking for myself, I love Marquette basketball and I don't really know where you get off questioning my love of the team. Who the hell are you? What I don't love is watching is a PG who should be playing 5 minutes a game, well at least if the team had any aspirations of being a tourney team. Based on what I have seen this year, I am conceding that we will finish around .500 and not be playing in the tourney. I can't wait til next year and the future is looking bright.

Really?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 08:31:07 PM
Just to clarify:  I love watching Marquette hoops.  Love it even more when winning...but will watch every game win or lose.  Fans are entitled to disagree with a head coach's decisions - it happens all the time in sports.  You refer to it as delusional arrogance.  I disagree.  Coaches don't always have it right.  And nor do I of course.  Nonetheless, I'm entitled to my opinion - and I've never been more puzzled, confounded or baffled by a player getting max playing time in ANY sport, as I have Derrick.  It doesn't make me bitter.  Nor arrogant.  Just baffled...and obviously frustrated.

Yes, fans often disagree with a head coach's decisions.  But on the Derrick debate, you have now disagreed with two completely different coaching staffs on the exact same decision.  At what point do you finally just say "well, I don't understand it, but it's pretty unlikely that two different coaching staffs are making a mistake when they come to the exact same conclusion regarding Derrick versus the alternatives...so maybe I should stop harping on it"?

Simply disagreeing with a decision here and there may not be delusional arrogance.  But when you question the same decision again and again and again, and then continue to question the same decision in a new season with a new coaching staff again and again and again...that sounds like delusional arrogance.

Ners:

Stop being hung up on Wojo calling Derrick "terrific." We all know Derrick isn't terrific. Chris Paul is terrific. Believe me, Wojo knows Derrick isn't terrific.

Wojo is glad to have Derrick. He is Wojo's security blanket for whatever reason. Maybe you're right about Wojo being comfortable with a player who reminds him of himself some. Whatever the deal, Wojo feels "responsible" for Derrick and wants to protect him from naysayers.

People rail against Derrick and Wojo knows it. So when somebody asks Wojo about Derrick after one of Derrick's few decent offensive games, Wojo is in defend-my-player mode and calls Derrick "terrific."

That's all it is. Coaches say all kinds of things. Roy Williams had 1 99/100ths of his feet out the door to Carolina yet he was still saying he wasn't necessarily leaving Kansas. Was he a "liar"? Depends on how literally you want to take this stuff. Phil Jackson was totally full of $hit, made stuff up all the time. I remember when the North Stars played the Penguins in the '91 Stanley Cup final and Mario Lemieux scored one of the great goals ever. When asked about it, North Stars coach Bob Gainey said, with a perfectly straight face, "It was not unlike some of the goals our players score." Coaches embellish, stretch the truth, use metaphors, exaggerate, make knee-jerk reactions, etc. It's so rare to have a coach tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth that when one accidentally tells the truth about something, it's news.

Wojo's player was being criticized and he did what a coach is supposed to do. He stuck up for him. Was "terrific" over the top? Of course. It's a non-story. It's what coaches do.

If it makes you feel good to debate this topic until the cows come home -- and it obviously does, because the cows have been sleeping in the barn for a year now and yet you keep on debating it -- knock yourself out. But don't get hung up on the words a coach says in defense of his player.

For somebody who claims to "know how inside basketball works," you get swept away in unimportant minutiae pretty damn easily.

Quote from: MU82 on December 08, 2014, 10:10:23 PM
Ners:

Stop being hung up on Wojo calling Derrick "terrific." We all know Derrick isn't terrific. Chris Paul is terrific. Believe me, Wojo knows Derrick isn't terrific.

Wojo is glad to have Derrick. He is Wojo's security blanket for whatever reason. Maybe you're right about Wojo being comfortable with a player who reminds him of himself some. Whatever the deal, Wojo feels "responsible" for Derrick and wants to protect him from naysayers.

People rail against Derrick and Wojo knows it. So when somebody asks Wojo about Derrick after one of Derrick's few decent offensive games, Wojo is in defend-my-player mode and calls Derrick "terrific."

That's all it is. Coaches say all kinds of things. Roy Williams had 1 99/100ths of his feet out the door to Carolina yet he was still saying he wasn't necessarily leaving Kansas. Was he a "liar"? Depends on how literally you want to take this stuff. Phil Jackson was totally full of $hit, made stuff up all the time. I remember when the North Stars played the Penguins in the '91 Stanley Cup final and Mario Lemieux scored one of the great goals ever. When asked about it, North Stars coach Bob Gainey said, with a perfectly straight face, "It was not unlike some of the goals our players score." Coaches embellish, stretch the truth, use metaphors, exaggerate, make knee-jerk reactions, etc. It's so rare to have a coach tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth that when one accidentally tells the truth about something, it's news.

Wojo's player was being criticized and he did what a coach is supposed to do. He stuck up for him. Was "terrific" over the top? Of course. It's a non-story. It's what coaches do.

If it makes you feel good to debate this topic until the cows come home -- and it obviously does, because the cows have been sleeping in the barn for a year now and yet you keep on debating it -- knock yourself out. But don't get hung up on the words a coach says in defense of his player.

For somebody who claims to "know how inside basketball works," you get swept away in unimportant minutiae pretty damn easily.

Why such a long response.  Ners won't change.

Why dont we just to change all thread names to (Derrick Wilson debate)

Quote from: real chili 83 on December 08, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
Why such a long response.  Ners won't change.

Well.....The New Year is coming up...it would be a hell of a tough resolution to make...to go Derrick free for 2015 - especially if his minutes and Big East play mirror that of last year.  Hopefully he improves and perform solidly to where it isn't so challenging for me personally to accept the fact that he's our "best option."

Quote from: real chili 83 on December 08, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
Why such a long response.  Ners won't change.

Eh ... it's worth a shot. I know he won't stop fixating on Derrick, but maybe we can get him to stop fixating on "terrific"?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 10:35:31 PM
Well.....The New Year is coming up...it would be a hell of a tough resolution to make...to go Derrick free for 2015 - especially if his minutes and Big East play mirror that of last year.  Hopefully he improves and perform solidly to where it isn't so challenging for me personally to accept the fact that he's our "best option."

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 10:35:31 PM
Well.....The New Year is coming up...it would be a hell of a tough resolution to make...to go Derrick free for 2015 - especially if his minutes and Big East play mirror that of last year.  Hopefully he improves and perform solidly to where it isn't so challenging for me personally to accept the fact that he's our "best option."

Don't do it for you. Do it for us.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2014, 11:00:30 PM
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Well done Gooo....fine advice.  And applicable. 

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2014, 11:00:30 PM
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

One of my favorite prayers of all time. And fits perfectly into this situation

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 08, 2014, 08:12:06 PM
...when it comes to basketball decisions on this team, I trust Wojo's opinion more than anyone on this site, myself included.

well, that's f ucking generous

face it - your basketball expertise is pretty nil

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 03:23:28 PM
I figured as much.  Hard to dispute the questions I asked.  Though I know you thought I was crazy last year at the beginning of the season when I said we'd have a rough year if Buzz didn't make a change.  And of course, you offered up:  Buzz's teams have always gotten better as the year goes on.  Sadly, last year, of course it didn't.  We missed the NIT.  With more returning experience than ever before on a Buzz team.  

With deep regret you are now on ignore. It is not what you say, it is the obession with the subject which apparently is beyond your control. Good luck.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 08, 2014, 09:38:19 PM
Speaking for myself, I love Marquette basketball and I don't really know where you get off questioning my love of the team. Who the hell are you? What I don't love is watching is a PG who should be playing 5 minutes a game, well at least if the team had any aspirations of being a tourney team. Based on what I have seen this year, I am conceding that we will finish around .500 and not be playing in the tourney. I can't wait til next year and the future is looking bright.

I did not question your love of the team. I asked if watching this team was enjoyable. If all you have to say about this team is how much Derrick sucks it seems like you must not be enjoying watching the games.

I'm not saying that really is all you post about, but it certainly feels that way. I'm also not saying you don't cheer for this team, but it certainly feels like your hatred of Derrick takes priority.

This season is not one in which we'll be competing for any titles. That said, the coach's job is still to win and to grow this team. Clearly, Derrick will be part of it this year. Unless you're one of those people who isn't happy unless they are complaining, it sure seems like accepting Derrick in his role would make the process more enjoyable.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 09, 2014, 06:28:40 AM
I did not question your love of the team. I asked if watching this team was enjoyable. If all you have to say about this team is how much Derrick sucks it seems like you must not be enjoying watching the games.

I'm not saying that really is all you post about, but it certainly feels that way. I'm also not saying you don't cheer for this team, but it certainly feels like your hatred of Derrick takes priority.

This season is not one in which we'll be competing for any titles. That said, the coach's job is still to win and to grow this team. Clearly, Derrick will be part of it this year. Unless you're one of those people who isn't happy unless they are complaining, it sure seems like accepting Derrick in his role would make the process more enjoyable.

There are far too many fans -- I'm not naming names, and it doesn't only apply to our fans -- who seem to get very little joy from their teams. It makes one wonder why they are fans.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:05:31 AM
There are far too many fans -- I'm not naming names, and it doesn't only apply to our fans -- who seem to get very little joy from their teams. It makes one wonder why they are fans.

And really...it's just sports. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 08, 2014, 10:35:31 PM
Well.....The New Year is coming up...it would be a hell of a tough resolution to make...to go Derrick free for 2015 - especially if his minutes and Big East play mirror that of last year.  Hopefully he improves and perform solidly to where it isn't so challenging for me personally to accept the fact that he's our "best option."

Go for it, Ners!

I'm sure you considered yourself a tough-minded guy during your playing days. Here is a great opportunity to test your toughness, willpower and your determination. You no doubt will be tempted and baited. Let's see if you are mentally strong enough to avoid being drawn in!

You almost seemed to be begging for something like this when you ran a poll about your own continued presence on Scoop. Well, take the challenge: Stay on Scoop, but avoid Derrick talk.

I put myself on "Derrick Moratorium" for more than a month last year and it made my Scoop experience far more enjoyable. (Then I put joyless willie on ignore and it became wonderful!)

You asked what Buzz had to lose by benching Derrick and now you ask similar questions about Wojo. So I'll turn that around and ask you: What do you have to lose, Ners?

You can't possibly be getting any joy out of constantly railing about one subject, and God knows the rest of us aren't getting any joy out of your Derrick 24/7 campaign.

I, for one, think you are tough enough to do it!

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:05:31 AM
There are far too many fans -- I'm not naming names, and it doesn't only apply to our fans -- who seem to get very little joy from their teams. It makes one wonder why they are fans.

I'm sure this type of thing goes back a long ways with every fan base. I remember this board when Crean was coaching and there were several posters who seemed to "hate-watch" every game. If MU won, they didn't say anything. If MU lost, they would blast the coach and light up the board. I think they were sort of happy when MU lost. Gave them a chance to tell everybody about how much they hated Crean.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
Go for it, Ners!

I'm sure you considered yourself a tough-minded guy during your playing days. Here is a great opportunity to test your toughness, willpower and your determination. You no doubt will be tempted and baited. Let's see if you are mentally strong enough to avoid being drawn in!

You almost seemed to be begging for something like this when you ran a poll about your own continued presence on Scoop. Well, take the challenge: Stay on Scoop, but avoid Derrick talk.

I put myself on "Derrick Moratorium" for more than a month last year and it made my Scoop experience far more enjoyable. (Then I put joyless willie on ignore and it became wonderful!)

You asked what Buzz had to lose by benching Derrick and now you ask similar questions about Wojo. So I'll turn that around and ask you: What do you have to lose, Ners?

You can't possibly be getting any joy out of constantly railing about one subject, and God knows the rest of us aren't getting any joy out of your Derrick 24/7 campaign.

I, for one, think you are tough enough to do it!

(http://media1.giphy.com/media/8RxCFgu88jUbe/200.gif)

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 09, 2014, 09:22:16 AM
I'm sure this type of thing goes back a long ways with every fan base. I remember this board when Crean was coaching and there were several posters who seemed to "hate-watch" every game. If MU won, they didn't say anything. If MU lost, they would blast the coach and light up the board. I think they were sort of happy when MU lost. Gave them a chance to tell everybody about how much they hated Crean.

More recently, Chicos and a few of his sycophants filled the Buzz era with more of the same. Usually passive/aggressive stuff, but every once in a while a "choking dog" moment.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
Go for it, Ners!

I'm sure you considered yourself a tough-minded guy during your playing days. Here is a great opportunity to test your toughness, willpower and your determination. You no doubt will be tempted and baited. Let's see if you are mentally strong enough to avoid being drawn in!

You almost seemed to be begging for something like this when you ran a poll about your own continued presence on Scoop. Well, take the challenge: Stay on Scoop, but avoid Derrick talk.

I put myself on "Derrick Moratorium" for more than a month last year and it made my Scoop experience far more enjoyable. (Then I put joyless willie on ignore and it became wonderful!)

You asked what Buzz had to lose by benching Derrick and now you ask similar questions about Wojo. So I'll turn that around and ask you: What do you have to lose, Ners?

You can't possibly be getting any joy out of constantly railing about one subject, and God knows the rest of us aren't getting any joy out of your Derrick 24/7 campaign.

I, for one, think you are tough enough to do it!

Thanks 82.  Appreciate the moral support.  Hardest part is when getting trolled on the topic to avoid it - just as it is for those on the other side of the debate when I make comments on it.  So long as the lipstick on the pig comments (when it truly is a pig of a performance) stop, it certainly makes it easier to avoid commentary.  Best case, Derrick plays solid, respectable ball the rest of the way and shuts me up in so doing - otherwise it will come down to me showing the restraint I've proven to lack on the matter.  But, I can certainly make it a resolution for 2015. 

And you are correct - I don't get any joy out of railing on the topic - call it venting.  It's basically that my head will explode if I can't get it off my chest/mind - which only gets amplified when I hear the lipstick on pig comments made by Wojo or other "supporters" here. 

Ners, I like you and am glad you post here.  We can help one another get through this.  I will sponsor you by not trolling you on the topic.  You can do the same.

Derrick Anonymous.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:56:50 AM
Ners, I like you and am glad you post here.  We can help one another get through this.  I will sponsor you by not trolling you on the topic.  You can do the same.

Derrick Anonymous.

Signed.

And though we battle a lot here Sultan - I too am glad you post here and respect (though disagree on some) you/r takes on MU basketball and passion for it as well.

Ners, have you read the Jay Bilas Book, Toughness?  Maybe apply some of the principals to the matter at hand.  Be tough and train your mind for the greater good and for the sanity of all of us here on scoop!  Please!

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jay+bilas+book&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=53737330289&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7355533552233331262&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4r5cthxy9i_e

I'm joining MU 82 and Sultan in the Derrick moratorium. IMO Ners adds value - and at times much needed humor - to Scoop. Of course as an ex baseball player/wrestler my opinion means next to nothing, but I digress.

Joy to the world! Peace on earth to men of good will! Shalom! I'm officially on the No Trolling Ners on Derrick train. Hope it will help with his detox.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 09, 2014, 10:24:19 AM
I'm joining MU 82 and Sultan in the Derrick moratorium. IMO Ners adds value - and at times much needed humor - to Scoop. Of course as an ex baseball player/wrestler my opinion means next to nothing, but I digress.

Joy to the world! Peace on earth to men of good will! Shalom! I'm officially on the No Trolling Ners on Derrick train. Hope it will help with his detox.

I never said I'd have a Derrick Moratorium. I had one last year for a month and it helped me put things in perspective, but I'll now have some conversations about him and the overall issue if I feel it's merited. I certainly temper my comments more now.

But I will join others in not baiting Ners. He and I actually are closer to agreeing than disagreeing about Derrick, anyway. I just realize that railing about it in every comment isn't going to change anything, so I don't do it.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 09, 2014, 10:24:19 AM
I'm joining MU 82 and Sultan in the Derrick moratorium. IMO Ners adds value - and at times much needed humor - to Scoop. Of course as an ex baseball player/wrestler my opinion means next to nothing, but I digress.

Joy to the world! Peace on earth to men of good will! Shalom! I'm officially on the No Trolling Ners on Derrick train. Hope it will help with his detox.

For a wrestler you have very good hoops understanding Lenny.   ;D  And as you know we've agreed about a lot more here than we've disagreed - other than of course this lightning rod issue of the last season.