Problem wasn't height...

[g0lden3agle]

There are plenty of fans here and elsewhere that know that Derrick should not be getting the minutes at PG. It is only a few like TAMU and the Slurper that fail to recognize that Duane and Carlino should be getting most of those minutes at PG The only thing any body hangs their hat on with Derrick is that he is a great defender--which is pure BS, and we are now playing zone where he is average at best.
Now of course, we will still hear--but wait, but wait, Wojo and Buzz both cannot be wrong. Derrick is the man!!
Let's see, cannot score, cannot shoot FT's, cannot shoot beyond 10 feet, cannot penetrate and finish, cannot draw a defender 10 feet from the basket, cannot create, and does not have lateral quickness. All of these areas both Carlino and Duane are superior to Derrick. Breakdown at PG should be Carlino 20-25 minutes, Duane 8-12 minutes and Derrick the balance.
But Hey--Derrick is the man.

Duane and Carlino are getting 29 and 31 MPG respectively, and they are often times out there with Derrick at the same time.  Derrick being out there with Duane and Carlino allow those two to work off the ball and get open for looks coming off screens and double screens. 

Dropping Derrick's minutes would not mean a 1:1 relationship with Duane/Carlino's minutes increasing.  It would mean a guy like JjJ is getting more time.  Are you really telling me this team would be in a better situation with JjJ getting Derrick's minutes?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There are plenty of fans here and elsewhere that know that Derrick should not be getting the minutes at PG. It is only a few like TAMU and the Slurper that fail to recognize that Duane and Carlino should be getting most of those minutes at PG The only thing any body hangs their hat on with Derrick is that he is a great defender--which is pure BS, and we are now playing zone where he is average at best.
Now of course, we will still hear--but wait, but wait, Wojo and Buzz both cannot be wrong. Derrick is the man!!
Let's see, cannot score, cannot shoot FT's, cannot shoot beyond 10 feet, cannot penetrate and finish, cannot draw a defender 10 feet from the basket, cannot create, and does not have lateral quickness. All of these areas both Carlino and Duane are superior to Derrick. Breakdown at PG should be Carlino 20-25 minutes, Duane 8-12 minutes and Derrick the balance.
But Hey--Derrick is the man.

Hey Willie, you may have noticed that I have been advocating all season for Derrick to get about ten minutes a game. You may also notice that I have been advocating for Carlino to get max minutes and Duane to get about 30 minutes a game since after the Ohio State game. I'll also remind you that we play a three guard offense, meaning you have Carlino, Duane, and ????. This is not an argument of Carlino/Duane v. Derrick. It is an argument of which of the remaining players can step up and take Derrick's minutes from that third guard spot.

You read scoop my dear Willie, but you do not observe.

[NersEllenson]

D ratings are next to useless when a team is playing a zone.  It is basically a meaningless stat.

Really?  Of course it is meaningless when the stat reports data that flies in the face of the ridiculous argument that Derrick's defense is SO valuable within our zone.

Anyone that is being real about this knows Derrick's biggest asset is his on ball, man to man defense.  Derrick doesn't play passing lanes any better than average, nor are his anticipation skills any better than average, two skills which zone defenses actually exacerbate.   The zone eliminates his biggest asset, and actually illuminates his average/below average D-skills (passing lanes/anticipation.) (Which is why it should come as no surprise his D-Rating is the worst on the team.)

There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Ners, you made a really sound argument for why Derrick shouldn't be playing as many minutes as he is. Then you ruin it with this crap. Your attitude of "I'm smarter than everyone else, including professional coaches" is what people respond negatively to. Well that, and ignoring all other players and pinning every problem on Derrick.

Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

[MU82]

Ners, you made a really sound argument for why Derrick shouldn't be playing as many minutes as he is. Then you ruin it with this crap. Your attitude of "I'm smarter than everyone else, including professional coaches" is what people respond negatively to. Well that, and ignoring all other players and pinning every problem on Derrick.

Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

Ners likes to use stats when they help him present his case. He likes to use the "eye test" instead of stats when that helps him present his case.

It's a very good way for him to guarantee that he never is wrong!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Just like the loyalty Wojo showed Mayo?

Again, we don't need to come up with a bunch of advanced scenarios on why Derrick is playing.

It's likely that Wojo thinks he's the best option, at least for now.

Boom. Solved.

If JJJ catches fire and is awesome the rest of the season, then DW will likely be a back-up guard and will get 20mpg or less.

[GGGG]

Really?  Of course it is meaningless when the stat reports data that flies in the face of the ridiculous argument that Derrick's defense is SO valuable within our zone.

Anyone that is being real about this knows Derrick's biggest asset is his on ball, man to man defense.  Derrick doesn't play passing lanes any better than average, nor are his anticipation skills any better than average, two skills which zone defenses actually exacerbate.   The zone eliminates his biggest asset, and actually illuminates his average/below average D-skills (passing lanes/anticipation.) (Which is why it should come as no surprise his D-Rating is the worst on the team.)

There are better options for 20 of the 30 minutes Derrick is getting.  Too bad Wojo's loyalty to a senior, that he likes, gets in the way of what is actually best for the team at present and the future.  Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

We have talked about D rating and its limitations before.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the items you are talking about (passing lanes/anticipation) unless the only stat you measure is steals.  However I would disagree with you with regards to anticipation.  Derrick is where he needs to be on the defensive side of the ball within the zone.  He is very smart in that regard.

WRT your last paragraph, TAMU is right.  We are now on a second season, and a second coach, of excuse making for why Derrick is getting the minutes he is.  At some point you may want to come to the conclusion that you are simply wrong - as flawed as he is, Derrick is simply better than the alternatives.

[mu03eng]

Anyone know where I can get the game tape from the MU-Wisconsin game?  I didn't DVR but I am more than happy to take the time to cut up the tape to watch Derrick in the zone defense and see if he really is as terrible as Ners portrays.

[mu03eng]

Curious if you saw my question. Do you honestly believe that Derrick is the worst defender on the team? Do you honestly believe that JjJ is the second best defender on the team?

I really really really want this answered.

[CTWarrior]

I think I know a lot about basketball.  I played through high school, could've played non-scholarship D3 ball, got an official's license (though I haven't reffed for a very long time) and still coach grammar school ball.  I don't understand Derrick Wilson's popularity with the last two coaches strictly based on his attributes as a player.  That being said, both Buzz and Wojo know infinitely more than I do about basketball.  If one of them said Derrick should play over more deserving guys, I might attribute it to something other than pure performance.  But now that a second coach is doing the same thing all over again, I'm willing to admit that Derrick must offer something on the basketball court that I don't understand.  They are probably right and I am probably wrong.   

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Takes a lot of fortitude to relegate a try hard, high character, likable senior to the bench for 30 minutes a game as a senior, after he got 30 minutes as a junior.

Actually, if there are better (and younger) options on the team this is very easy.  The worst he can do is quit and at that if he is a bad player then maybe that makes your team better.  Unless of course he makes others around him better as a valued member of the team.....

[keefe]

Fair enough. But, is he worse shooter than Derrick?  Hard to say but I don't think so.

Wait just one minute! I thought Derrick shot 25,000 threes this past summer?

[keefe]

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588356

Skilled size matters.  

As I have heard continuously from appreciative ladies for years

[wildbill sb]

Not sure where to put this Hokie post, but here it is:

Re: The difference between this years basketball team and last seasons   Reply
As a huge Hokie basketball fan - It is simple.

We don't have height, we turn the ball over, and we are terrible from the free throw line.  We are one of the most inefficient teams in the country because of the turnovers and poor free throw shooting - we just throw away possessions.  We also can't rebound because of our lack of size - which means we give other teams multiple possessions.

The issues will get fixed with player development and when better players come to the program.

The team has improved - they force more turnovers and actually run offensive sets and get good shots.
12/8 9:50 AM | IP: Logged

LOL

[keefe]

When did I say Duane Wilson wasn't bad tonight for going to the rim. However he didn't airball literally every shot he took. I found that part kind of funny and I found it kind of sad.

Even Albert and Anthony finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

[GGGG]

Even Albert and Kellogg finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

What would you do differently?

[mu03eng]

Even Albert and Kellogg finally got to the point they were laughing about Derrick Wilson's pathetic attempts to drive the lane. Their comments were subtle yet unambiguous. Bottom line is Wilson is a tremendous liability for us. Doesn't make him a bad guy but it does contribute to the lack of success on the court.

How much more successful were JjJ and Duane in driving the lane?

[willie warrior]

Hey Willie, you may have noticed that I have been advocating all season for Derrick to get about ten minutes a game. You may also notice that I have been advocating for Carlino to get max minutes and Duane to get about 30 minutes a game since after the Ohio State game. I'll also remind you that we play a three guard offense, meaning you have Carlino, Duane, and ????. This is not an argument of Carlino/Duane v. Derrick. It is an argument of which of the remaining players can step up and take Derrick's minutes from that third guard spot.

You read scoop my dear Willie, but you do not observe.

You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

[mattyv1908]

What would you do differently?

I think I finally figured this whole Derrick Wilson debate and why it's raged on into a second season now.

Ners and others cannot imagine such an offensively limited PG playing large minutes at the D1 level.  Therefore, by default the other players HAVE to be better than what they're witnessing.

Others on this forum suggest that since he's playing as much as he is it would indicate that the coaching staff feels there are no other alternatives.

Which is met with the "How could they be any worse?" response and the next thing you know is we have 27,312 individual posts regarding the same damn topic over and over and over.

This really is becoming laughable at this point.

[keefe]

What would you do differently?

Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

[g0lden3agle]

You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

What has JjJ done to make you think he's better than Derrick?  Do you honestly trust Duane and Carlino to run this offense without turning the ball over at a healthy clip?

[mu03eng]

You phrase the argument any way you want to and so will I. Mine is that Derrick's minutes should be reduced at PG, because in a zone there is no reason at all for him to be out there. Derrick's PG minutes can be given to Duane and Carlino. In fact, who says we need a 3 guard offense? Carlino at PG, Duane at 2G, Anderson, Cohen, JJJ, Taylor can also split up the rest of the minutes. I have repeatedly said that you can use the 40 minutes at PG using Duane and Carlino for about 30 of those minutes and give Derrick the rest. When Carlino and Duane are at point, the other can play 2G with JJJ, Cohen, and even Anderson filling minutes at the 2.
Carlino should be playing the point anyway--that is his best position.


The BS that some are spreading: "I wish we had better options, but we do not" is purely that-- BS.
You completely ignore the argument when saying who will take his minutes. I have just again shown you how it can be done. If you want to continue to use a 3 guard lineup, you can still do it with Carlino at 30 plus minutes, Duane at 30 plus minutes, Derrick at 10 minutes, Cohen at 10-15 minutes, JJJ at 10-20 minutes, Anderson at 5-10 minutes and Dawson at 5-10 minutes. Let's not now split hairs that the minutes are 2 or 3 off. Burton can even play a few minutes at 2G. Yeah some of those guys are not as good defensively as Derrick, but we are now running zone.
Derrick adds nothing to the offense (hosanna, we scored 38 last game), and in a zone, his defense is not utilized to the best. Again, he cannot score, he cannot shoot, he cannot shoot FT's, he cannot shoot the 3, he cannot penetrate and finish, defenses sag off him (Daddy, how come nobody is guarding #12?), he cannot create. Move over and give that time to others who can.
But Hey, he is a good kid who represents us well and is now a senior--so therefore he must play. Yes, I get it.

THe one who reads but does not observe is you.

What about JjJ's 10 minutes on Saturday tells you that he should get 10 more minutes on the court?  Point to a play or a statistic that shows his value to get an additional 10 minutes.  Hell show me in the last 5 games where JjJ was better than Derrick.

For those in the bench Derrick crowd I do think you will see him playing fewer minutes with Fischer eligible, it'll allow more 2 guard sets as Juan plays the 4 and Burton the 3.

[mu03eng]

What has JjJ done to make you think he's better than Derrick?  Do you honestly trust Duane and Carlino to run this offense without turning the ball over at a healthy clip?

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  I think Duane and Carlino can run the offense just fine, the question is who is playing the 3rd guard in a 3 guard set.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

I don't know that the other options are any better.

If you give Wilson's minutes to JJJ/Cohen, then you might hear Anthony and Albert saying stuff like "Ill-advised shot by the frosh." or something similar.

Wojo is certainly not infallible, but again, it seems likely that he's trying to make the best of a limited situation.

If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

[g0lden3agle]

What about JjJ's 10 minutes on Saturday tells you that he should get 10 more minutes on the court?  Point to a play or a statistic that shows his value to get an additional 10 minutes.  Hell show me in the last 5 games where JjJ was better than Derrick.

For those in the bench Derrick crowd I do think you will see him playing fewer minutes with Fischer eligible, it'll allow more 2 guard sets as Juan plays the 4 and Burton the 3.

This is ultimately what I'm hoping for as well.  More 3 forward sets as opposed to 3 guard sets.  That's really banking on Fischer being able to play some significant minutes out the gate though.