Problem wasn't height...

[mu03eng]

If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

And Scoop

[GGGG]

I don't know that the other options are any better.

If you give Wilson's minutes to JJJ/Cohen, then you might hear Anthony and Albert saying stuff like "Ill-advised shot by the frosh." or something similar.

Wojo is certainly not infallible, but again, it seems likely that he's trying to make the best of a limited situation.

If JJJ/Cohen/Burton improve in the coming weeks, you will see Derrick's minutes reduced, which I think will help him and the team.

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

[mu03eng]

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

+∞

[MU82]

I think I know a lot about basketball.  I played through high school, could've played non-scholarship D3 ball, got an official's license (though I haven't reffed for a very long time) and still coach grammar school ball.  I don't understand Derrick Wilson's popularity with the last two coaches strictly based on his attributes as a player.  That being said, both Buzz and Wojo know infinitely more than I do about basketball.  If one of them said Derrick should play over more deserving guys, I might attribute it to something other than pure performance.  But now that a second coach is doing the same thing all over again, I'm willing to admit that Derrick must offer something on the basketball court that I don't understand.  They are probably right and I am probably wrong.   

This is kind of where I am. I couldn't have played even D3 ball and I've been reffing and coaching for several years, but I have a similar level of "expertise." And I generally agree with what you say here about Derrick and his coaches -- first Buzz and now Wojo obviously have concluded that their team has a better chance for success with Derrick on the floor than without Derrick on the floor, and they see him waaaaay more than any of us do.

That doesn't mean you and I have to change what we think would be optimal, but what we think doesn't matter much because Wojo foolishly forgot to call us- ha!

[MU82]

Unfortunately, Wojo's options are indeed limited. At least the other guards made the attempt look more reasonable. When a skilled, discerning pair of announcers with decades experience watching the best in basketball begin singling out a player's drives as , "wild," "out of control," "ill-advised," "not sure what he was doing" then there is likely a significant problem.

I rarely engage in this sort of player debate but if Marv Albert and Greg Anthony single out Derrick Wilson's offensive play as problematic I take note. Fact is, unlike 100% of the people who post on Scoop, Albert and Anthony actually know basketball and are impartial in their observations. The fact they commented on Derrick Wilson's play on Saturday carries far more weight than the assorted comments made here for the past year.

I agree with this and I got a kick out of Marv's inflections in describing, "another WILD shot by Wilson." Sometimes he got the Wilsons mixed up (which is very unlike Marv, the best play-by-play man in basketball history), but either way he knew the attempts were wild.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think a single soul here on Scoop would be sad if Derrick's minutes are reduced due to other players stepping up and taking those minutes from him.

Exactly, and here is where everybody needs to pay attention:

IF (insert player) plays better than Derrick, he will likely take Derrick's minutes.

I don't think this is more complicated than that.

[GooooMarquette]

I think I finally figured this whole Derrick Wilson debate and why it's raged on into a second season now.

Ners and others cannot imagine such an offensively limited PG playing large minutes at the D1 level.  Therefore, by default the other players HAVE to be better than what they're witnessing.

Others on this forum suggest that since he's playing as much as he is it would indicate that the coaching staff feels there are no other alternatives.

Which is met with the "How could they be any worse?" response and the next thing you know is we have 27,312 individual posts regarding the same damn topic over and over and over.

This really is becoming laughable at this point.

Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

[Lennys Tap]

Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

Exactly. When Buzz played Derrick almost 4 times more minutes than John D, he was stubborn, an idiot, throwing games. And when he played Juan and Deonte about the same number of minutes, it was more of the same.

This year's coach has played Derrick 60 times more minutes than John D and Juan twice as many minutes as Deonte. Guess we've gone from one stubborn idiot to an even bigger one.

[CTWarrior]

I never mind being ignored by people who can't even attack the point being made...guard play was the reason we lost today. Period. 2nd chance points didn't. WI had lots of problems scoring against our zone. Problem was we were worse on the O end with our guards other than Carlino.

I did not watch the game live, and read a large amount of posts here before I did.  We were much more competitive than I thought from reading this board.  When Carlino lost that ball down 4 late, that could easily have been called a foul on UW, and then it would've been very tight to the finish.  But size was a big deal.  Even though they didn't get a ton of second chance points, they got a lot of second chances, while we got next to none.  Part of that is the zone, part of that is height.

Our penetrators couldn't get to the rim because of size as well.  Say what you want about Wisconsin, but they played a smart, disciplined defense against us and always had at least one big body, usually 2, to thwart our drives.  I would like to see our penetrators dish the ball more on drives, rather than just throwing random off balance, low percentage shots toward the rim.

[mu03eng]

Our penetrators couldn't get to the rim because of size as well.  Say what you want about Wisconsin, but they played a smart, disciplined defense against us and always had at least one big body, usually 2, to thwart our drives.  I would like to see our penetrators dish the ball more on drives, rather than just throwing random off balance, low percentage shots toward the rim.

I'm in agreement, JjJ, Derrick, Duane, and to a certain extend Carlino were all guilty of this.

[MU82]

Yep.  It was bad enough last season when one coaching staff decided that Derrick was the best alternative, and the Ners crowd adopted this "someone else must be better" mantra.  But now that a second coaching staff has come to the same conclusion and that crowd still can't let it go, it's becoming a sad joke.

Wait ... there's a "Ners crowd"?

[willie warrior]

Duane and Carlino are getting 29 and 31 MPG respectively, and they are often times out there with Derrick at the same time.  Derrick being out there with Duane and Carlino allow those two to work off the ball and get open for looks coming off screens and double screens. 

Dropping Derrick's minutes would not mean a 1:1 relationship with Duane/Carlino's minutes increasing.  It would mean a guy like JjJ is getting more time.  Are you really telling me this team would be in a better situation with JjJ getting Derrick's minutes?

What I am telling all the Derrick lovers is that he is a huge offensive liability-huge. What part of that do you not see. JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer. However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes. But I guess you cannot read and comprehend either. Derrick offers nothing offensively. We play zone. He is not needed for 35 minutes a game. Give those minutes to others. RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

But because a few hardheads that do not get it still want to settle for a .500 team with him at the point--then have at it. Because that is the direction you have accepted.

[GGGG]

RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

This may be the funniest thing I have ever read on Scoop.

[mattyv1908]

Willie,

I get your point and somewhat agree with parts of your premise but you really should consider proof reading before you emphasize your point by taking a known slogan for literacy and capitalizing it as 'RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL'.

The irony is too much.

[brandx]

This may be the funniest thing I have ever read on Scoop.

Speling is important, to.

[g0lden3agle]

What I am telling all the Derrick lovers is that he is a huge offensive liability-huge. What part of that do you not see. JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer. However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes. But I guess you cannot read and comprehend either. Derrick offers nothing offensively. We play zone. He is not needed for 35 minutes a game. Give those minutes to others. RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

But because a few hardheads that do not get it still want to settle for a .500 team with him at the point--then have at it. Because that is the direction you have accepted.

When the other two starting guards in our three guard starting lineup are capable of scoring loads of points any given night, forgive me for being ok having Derrick out there with them, as he's not going to make many mistakes during his time out there on the court.

JjJ is more athletic, and has the POTENTIAL to be a better scorer.  Has he really proven much since that first game of the year?  Playing time is earned, and he (and others) have clearly not done enough on the court, be it game time or practice time, to earn those minutes away from Derrick.

[MUfan12]

Playing time is earned, and he (and others) have clearly not done enough on the court, be it game time or practice time, to earn those minutes away from Derrick.

That's my RADE on it as well.

[NersEllenson]

My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer.

I wish this were true.

Hell, I'm sure Wojo wishes it were true.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

Again, we're back to the same debate.

I assume the coaching staff that sees these kids play for hours per day have a pretty good feel for this. They might be wrong sometimes, but the idea that they have some sort of magic bullet sitting on the bench is naive.

I doubt there is a steamin' willie beamen on this team.

[Lennys Tap]

My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

Only explanation - Buzz and Wojo were wrestlers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

JJJ is more athletic and a better scorer.

I don't think this is actually true at this point. JjJ has been a much larger offensive liability to start the season. I also think Derrick is the better athlete. Have you seen the guns attached to those shoulders? I think JjJ has the potential to be a better scorer and athlete than Derrick. But outside of the UT-Martin game, he hasn't shown it. Hell, he barely has a better 3P% than Derrick and a worse FG%. At least Derrick doesn't turn it over on nearly half of his possessions.

However, I also said other people could pick up the minutes.

Who? All that's left is Deonte, Cohen, and Dawson. Dawson can't even get off the bench. And Deonte and Cohen have been needed to play the four because of how tiny we are. Besides that, Deonte has not been good this season. I agree that he has a huge ceiling but for whatever reason, he hasn't been demonstrating it. Other than the occasional wide open three and the three thunderous dunks he's had, he has been an offensive liability. He turns it over even more than JjJ does. And he's a liability on the other side of the court, constantly out of position with his hands at his side.

I actually agree with you that Derrick has been playing too many minutes lately. I would have decreased them and given Cohen more run. He's looked pretty solid so far this season. But not the massive cuts that you are suggesting. Especially since we needed Sandy to backup Juan and Taylor.

Now that Luke is here, I expect that we will see less minutes from Derrick. Having a true center allows all of our players to play their natural positions and will keep us from HAVING to use the three guard lineup. It will still get used at times, but now that Deonte and Cohen aren't the only backups for the 4 and 5, we can afford to play them at the 3.

You are right Willie, Derrick playing 35 minutes a game probably means another 17-15ish season. But unless other players step up and take the minutes from him, there is nothing to be done. Don't be mad at Wojo for playing Derrick. Don't be mad at Derrick for being who he is. Don't be mad at the slurpers for agreeing with the coach. Be mad that the other players aren't playing up to their perceived potential and taking those minutes from Derrick.

RADING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

Hilarious! Bravo sir!

[GGGG]

My questions:

1) If at the start of this season, Scoop was told, Derrick Wilson would be playing 30+ minutes per game, largely as an off guard/shooting guard - who would have said:  "That's a great solution?"

2) Wojo and others have lamented that we frequently drove the paint and forced a tough shot when we should have kicked out for a perimeter look - Does anyone disagree Duane and Carlino were far more the guys going to the hoop?  If so, who are their kick out options?  Most likely Derrick (or the other of Carlino/Duane when they weren't the one's driving)  So, is kicking out to Derrick at the 3point line a good strategy?

3) When Wojo speaks of Derrick and calls him a "Terrific" player, how many Scoopers agree that, that is an appropriate or accurate description?  I suspect very few - having said that, how do you not call into question Wojo's credibility when such an exaggerated statement is made?

4) Our "other options" (deemed not as good by some here due to Wojo not playing them much) - If you limited Derrick to 10 minutes per game, what kind of production do you think you would get??  Additionally, with Derrick we have 975 minutes of evidence to know what he brings from last season - the other guys:  Cohen, JJJ, Dawson - are all largely unknowns.  Would it really hurt to explore giving each of them chunks of Derrick's time to see how they can perform in the game situations - as more than likely if you give Derrick 30 minutes, you will get about 5 points, 3 assists, highly ineffective 3 point shooting and FT shooting.

5) Does anyone disagree that us playing zone essentially takes away Derrick's greatest asset?  His on ball, man to man D?

I'll hang up and listen.

1.  No.  What are the other options?
2.  No.  What are the other options?
3.  Just coach speak.  Are you seriously suggesting that Wojo lacks credibility 8 games into his career?
4.  As Canned said, same debate as last year.  I trust that the coaches know what they are doing.  I have seen nothing to suggest that it would be better with other options.
5.  I think Derrick has been fine within the zone.

[NersEllenson]

Again, we're back to the same debate.

I assume the coaching staff that sees these kids play for hours per day have a pretty good feel for this. They might be wrong sometimes, but the idea that they have some sort of magic bullet sitting on the bench is naive.

I doubt there is a steamin' willie beamen on this team.

Wojo himself knows from experience, and has said as much - that sometimes guys are just gamers - play better when the lights come on.  Now, he did qualify that statement with the fact that usually the guys who practice the best, play the best - yet that there are cases where you have guys who just play better under the lights.  And, I think most/many observers of all sports can realize this - how else do you explain the reality of clutch players??  Some very good players, aren't clutch - yet you have guys who on the whole, may not be as good as another guy - but are just clutch.  Big Shot Bob Horry.  Derek Fischer.  And a host of other players over the years.

We've all seen the Derrick under the lights - if he can give us 8ppg, 4 assists, 3 rebounds per game on respectable FG and FT shooting - I can live with him getting 30.  Just give me Cadougan numbers (which weren't great by any stretch - but a team can win with that type of production.)  But, if we can't get that on a consistent basis (which it doesn't seem we will), let's get some of the young guys more PT under the lights and see what happens.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Wojo himself knows from experience, and has said as much - that sometimes guys are just gamers - play better when the lights come on.  Now, he did qualify that statement with the fact that usually the guys who practice the best, play the best - yet that there are cases where you have guys who just play better under the lights.  And, I think most/many observers of all sports can realize this - how else do you explain the reality of clutch players??  Some very good players, aren't clutch - yet you have guys who on the whole, may not be as good as another guy - but are just clutch.  Big Shot Bob Horry.  Derek Fischer.  And a host of other players over the years.

We've all seen the Derrick under the lights - if he can give us 8ppg, 4 assists, 3 rebounds per game on respectable FG and FT shooting - I can live with him getting 30.  Just give me Cadougan numbers (which weren't great by any stretch - but a team can win with that type of production.)  But, if we can't get that on a consistent basis (which it doesn't seem we will), let's get some of the young guys more PT under the lights and see what happens.

Right, but the young guys HAVE gotten minutes. Cohen and JJJ have both gotten starts this season (if I recall correctly).

They have been good in spots, and terrible in some others.

If/When Cohen, JJJ and Burton start playing better than Derrick on a consistent basis, they will take his minutes.

EDIT: I see now that you are bringing up Dawson again, so I'm just going to bow out of this thread. Nothing left for me to add.

Enjoy, gentlemen!