Problem wasn't height...

[wadesworld]

I'm sure you and the other clowns who continue to prop up Derrick's shoddy performances would love it if I left - because for roughly 28 out of 32 games - you look idiotic for suggesting he isn't the primary problem with last year's team, and now this years..

I've never seen a player produce less in 30 years of playing/watching basketball given as many minutes as Derrick has gotten this year and last.  Never seen it before.  Not to mention continuing to be given all that playing time as a 40% FT shooter and 10% 3pt shooter at the PG position.

Figured I'd give the board their chance to speak as I've ruffled a lot of feathers here.  I'll voluntarily go away if the majority of the board votes me off.  (And I think it will be a close vote.)

Have fun with it Scoop.

Yap yap yap yap yap.

The poll ended 161 yes, 139 no.  I know you have some crazy logic when it comes to basketball that makes you superior to the likes of Buzz and Wojo, so maybe you have some mathematical genius that guys like Albert Einstein simply just don't understand, but it seems to me that the "majority" voted yes.

Only real men who can win 1-on-1 basketball games stay true to their words!

[GGGG]

I'm sure you and the other clowns who continue to prop up Derrick's shoddy performances would love it if I left - because for roughly 28 out of 32 games - you look idiotic for suggesting he isn't the primary problem with last year's team, and now this years..

He's the *primary* problem with this year's team?  Hardly.  

You realize that both JJJ and Deonte are shooting worse than him right, and both look completely lost on defense.  Derrick isn't very good, but it is very obvious why Derrick is playing the minutes he is.  No alternatives - just like last year.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

And one team plays a 3 guard lineup (MU) and the other a 2 guard lineup. Which means you better be getting some production from that 3rd guard. We get none. Zilch. Sorry..I stand corrected - 1 point in 35 minutes.

Game. Set. Match. Wojo will eventually figure it out.

Good lord.  Even when presented with statistical evidence he is wrong, Ners can never admit that he is wrong.  I'm sure this thread will run a hundred plus posts with him continuing to belabor a point that was proven wrong.

[NersEllenson]

Good lord.  Even when presented with statistical evidence he is wrong, Ners can never admit that he is wrong.  I'm sure this thread will run a hundred plus posts with him continuing to belabor a point that was proven wrong.

Take it up with Ken Pomeroy:

O Rating:
JJJ - 0 (10 minutes played - minimum playing time needed to get an O-rating assigned.
Derrick - 34 (in 35 minutes played)
Duane - 46 ( 31 minutes)
Carlino - 89 (34 minutes played)
Cohen - 243 (10 minutes played)

Wisconsin:
Jackson:  62  (32 minutes)
Koenig: 90 (24 minutes)
Gasser:  141 (31 minutes)

Guard play was a huge problem for our team today.  Cohen should have been left in to finish the game out.  Fatal mistake to put Derrick back in for him the last 6 minutes.

[brandx]

So let me get this right. You aren't a fan of Derrick?

[mu03eng]

Guard play was a huge problem for our team today.  Cohen should have been left in to finish the game out.  Fatal mistake to put Derrick back in for him the last 6 minutes.

You do realize MU was within 6 with 1:10 left in the game and the ball when Carlino had an unforced error that cost MU the game right?  Again, Derrick ain't great but there isn't much in the way of alternative and fatal mistake would generally be a very inaccurate statement.

Cohen should have gotten more minutes, I will grant you that.  I don't think his O-rating stays that high though if he has 6 minutes straight at the end of the game.

[NersEllenson]

So let me get this right. You aren't a fan of Derrick?

No - I'm a fan of Derrick's - about 4 games per year.  Hopefully he can achieve 4 again this season.  With conference play coming up and our opponents knowing they get a rover defender - it will be interesting to see.

[brewcity77]

Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

[GGGG]

Cohen played so much better today within the zone defense than he did in Orlando.  If he continues on that stretch, I think he will get more minutes.

[NersEllenson]

You do realize MU was within 6 with 1:10 left in the game and the ball when Carlino had an unforced error that cost MU the game right?  Again, Derrick ain't great but there isn't much in the way of alternative and fatal mistake would generally be a very inaccurate statement.

Cohen should have gotten more minutes, I will grant you that.  I don't think his O-rating stays that high though if he has 6 minutes straight at the end of the game.

That's great we were down 6 with 1:10 left.  What did Derrick contribute to that?  Burton/Cohen got it as close as 2, after being down 10 when they entered the game.  They left the game down 5 points at roughly the 7:30 mark.  Point is they whittled the deficit, and contributed - thereafter, we did nothing to reduce deficit, and of course Derrick didn't contribute anything in those last 5 minutes (or the 30 prior he played)

[mattyv1908]

Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

[MarquetteDano]

Cohen played so much better today within the zone defense than he did in Orlando.  If he continues on that stretch, I think he will get more minutes.

I noticed Wojo put him at the top of the zone instead of on the wing like he did in Orlando.  I guess that made a difference.  His length would be bothersome to regular size guards out there.

[mu03eng]

No loss is a good loss, especially to a rival, but I'm surprised by all the negativity on the board.  There were bad things in the game, but there were more positives to take away.

Positives in order of significance:
1. Wojo can flat out coach.  This was the biggest question I had going into this season.  The last 3 weeks, even in losses, Wojo has shown an ability to prepare a team and make adjustments on the fly.  He is getting young players safe minutes and putting his teams in the best position to win.  I think Fischer will have a bigger impact than I estimated simply because of how it gives Wojo more flexibility and coaching options.  His defensive moves, especially today were outstanding.
2.  Duane Wilson is the real deal.  He will be a fantastic player for MU the next four years and by the last ten games of the season this year he will likely be our leading scorer(barring injury).
3.  Carlino is a player that needs to be on this team, he is our best offensive player right now.
4.  Fischer is now eligible.  Even if he is a complete stiff he will shield the lane and force post defenders to be honest giving the guards an opportunity to finish at the rim.  Also reduces the pressure on the guards which should improve our 3pt shooting.
5.  Cohen will be good he just needs experience.
6.  Burton hasn't played anything close to his abilities.  He will play well, I think when Fischer is back that will open things for Burton.  He also needs patience given what he's gone through.

Negatives:
1.  JjJ just hasn't been very good on either end.  He needs to play better to force Wojo to play him more and Derrick less.
2.  Just not enough height and talent on the roster this year.  Not going to get fixed this year.
3.  Steve Taylor just isn't the player he was as a freshman right now.  I don't know if it's mental or what but he is a relative non-factor right now.
4.  Derrick Wilson is playing 35 minutes a game.  The minutes are justified because there aren't other options but the fact that it has to happen is an issue because there isn't enough offense there.

A lot more to be happy about than pissed.

[mu03eng]

Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

Problem last year was Jake and Derrick together, Ners is right about that.  This year Carlino and Derrick together is sooooo much better.  Backcourt this year is way better than last year.

[brandx]

Christ this is stupid. Yes, guard play was an issue. No one is debating that. But WHY was guard play an issue? We had no size down low to dump in to or to open the lane. This game was not complicated. We have no bigs. That dictated how they defended us and how we were able to attack.

Seems so simple - yet some just cannot understand. Cuz..... you know, Derrick.

[mattyv1908]

Problem last year was Jake and Derrick together, Ners is right about that.  This year Carlino and Derrick together is sooooo much better.  Backcourt this year is way better than last year.

He was right last year about our backcourt, especially when people were bashing Gardner and Jamil (as frustrating as he was at times) for not being even better players to hide Derrick and Jake's ineptitude.

[brewcity77]

Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

But last year we didn't have guards who could drive to the rim and we didn't have guards who could hit threes. The teams were radically different. Last year's strengths were this year's weaknesses, but this year's strengths were last year's weaknesses. Last year has absolutely no bearing on this year's game. Take this game for what it was, because it was a completely different game.

Our problem had nothing to do with our perimeter game. Anyone saying otherwise is a complete and utter moron. We shot 7/32 inside the arc. That's SEVEN for freaking THIRTY-TWO. We were completely impotent inside the arc. Was Derrick part of that problem? Yes, he was 0/4. But Duane was 1/8, Juan was 0/4, and Jajuan was 0/2. They kept taking on Wisconsin's bigs and kept losing. Those four guys went 1/18 from 2-point range.

Yes, the guards didn't come through, but it was because of a lack of size. Because they kept going at Wisconsin's big men and losing. Because they attacked guys that treated them like flies on the wrong end of a swatter.

Yes, last year we had Otule, but we didn't have slashers that could reliably get into the lane. Derrick and Juan weren't as aggressive, we didn't have Duane or Carlino, and the one guy we had that was really capable of attacking the hoop, Mayo, was suspended. Last year we had the big men to make guards like these effective, but we didn't have guards like these.

[GGGG]

I noticed Wojo put him at the top of the zone instead of on the wing like he did in Orlando.  I guess that made a difference.  His length would be bothersome to regular size guards out there.

Excellent point.

[brewcity77]

Also...

Cohen...11 mins...1/1 shooting
Burton...10 mins...1/1 shooting

Great, they both scored the only shot they took, you might want to be a little more assertive than say, Derrick, who barely pressed the issue and still took a shot every 7 minutes.

[NersEllenson]

Brew -

I get your point you're trying to make, but part of where I have to agree with some of what Ners complains about is that last year when we did have bigs who could score they were the ones who were criticized for not doing even more despite our terrible backcourt last season.  This is the inconsistency of reasoning by some posters that I believe is what keeps Ners so lazer focused on Derrick Wilson's shortcomings.

Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

[mu03eng]

That's great we were down 6 with 1:10 left.  What did Derrick contribute to that?  Burton/Cohen got it as close as 2, after being down 10 when they entered the game.  They left the game down 5 points at roughly the 7:30 mark.  Point is they whittled the deficit, and contributed - thereafter, we did nothing to reduce deficit, and of course Derrick didn't contribute anything in those last 5 minutes (or the 30 prior he played)

Far be it from me to tell you facts that stand in the way of your narrative but look at the box score again.

At the 8:57 mark Derrick goes out with the score 33-35 Wisco.  At the 6:52 mark Derrick comes back in with the score 33-42 Wisco.  At the 2:05 mark Derrick goes out with the score 38-44 Wisco.  Score stays that way until the Carlino turnover.

Derrick being out didn't cause UW to go on a run per se and Derrick being in didn't cause MU to come back per se.  But there is no way you can blame Derrick for scoring when he's not in the game!!!

This is where you lose all credibility, you literally invent facts for your narrative.

[mu03eng]

Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

So much wrong with this post, I don't even have the time to respond.  JjJ was verifiably worse than Derrick.  There is no disputing this.

[GGGG]

Bingo. There's a common denominator. And it appears we won't be good again until next season. And yes, Wojo has options. It isn't going to get worse playing any of Cohen, JJJ, or Dawson those 30 minutes. But, it would get better I can guarantee. Wojo describing Derrick as a "terrific" player is ridiculous and shows the extent of his pet status. Fine me one other guard getting 30 plus per game with so little production that gets described as "terrific."  Please.

Are you really going to go back to the "guys who aren't playing much *must* be better" reasoning from last year?  

Because this year kinda shows that it wasn't the case last year.  

[Eldon]

UW's 1-3:
26 points
9-30 fg (30%)
5-21 3 pt fg (24%)
3-5 ft (60%)
10 rebounds
10 assists
1 steal
1 block
6 turnovers

MU's 1-3:
24 points
8-30 fg (27%)
4-10 3 pt fg (40%)
4-6 ft (67%)
8 rebounds
8 assists
4 steals
0 blocks
7 turnovers

UW's 4-5:
23 points
8-22 fg (36%)
3-9 3 pt fg (33%)
4-4 ft (100%)
25 rebounds
4 assists
6 steals
5 blocks
5 turnovers

MU's 4-5:
14 points
5-15 fg (33%)
2-4 3 pt fg (50%)
2-3 ft (67%)
17 rebounds
1 assist
0 steals
0 blocks
2 turnovers

Yup, looks like it the 1-3 positions were why we lost this one guys!  It wasn't the size, it was their 1-3 positions killed our 1-3 positions!

Revolutionary stuff here.

Could it be that MU's 4-5 did relatively poorly because of the guard(s) that MU had on the floor? Stats in a vacuum are, well, untrustworthy.

As we get closer to conference play, we will encounter coaches who know our players. We will encounter coaches who know which players they can sag on.

When Luke comes in, he can't be as effective as he could be if there is an extra defender in the paint.

[brewcity77]

Can we please not try the last year vs this year thing? The teams are completely different. Different coaches, vastly different personnel, different schemes. What went wrong in Madison last year was completely different than what went wrong at the BC today, and for completely different reasons.