MUScoop

Granted its only one exhibition against a bad D-3 team but if things continue on their current course I think Duane will be the starter at PG.  Derrick is still Derrick.  He did drive once or twice but he still is unable to finish even against WL.  Duane puts so much more pressure on the Defense since he is a threat to go by his man and get to the hoop and he can also take and make the 3 if left wide open.  When opponents have to play him honestly it will open things up for everyone else.  Carlino is more of a shoot first guy and I could see him monopolizing the ball particularly if he is trying to shoot himself out of a slump.  Duane and Dawson are similar style players but I think Duane is simply better.
I was a little concerned when Duane airmailed his first shot but his form was good and later in the game he was hitting.
I'll like to see Duane and Carlino as the primary backcourt (Carlino more on his rep as a shooter not specifically on how he played today).  Then one of the big guards, JJ or Sandy, at the 3, the Juan and STJ up front.   Burton instant offense off the bench.  Thoughts?

Absolutely!! If Derrick Wilson plays more than 10-12 minutes per game..this team will not improve.

Quote from: Untucked on November 08, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
Absolutely!! If Derrick Wilson plays more than 10-12 minutes per game..this team will not improve.

Agreed...I would prefer to have him avg 0-5 mpg, but am hoping Wojo keeps it under 10. It's time to move forward with a new starting PG!

We have 9 eligible players and Dawson is #9....anybody who thinks Derrick isn't going to play significant minutes(15-20 at least) is kidding themselves.

Carlino had 12 assists today.....I think Wojo will give them all a chance...should be interesting to see how it plays out.

Duane was much better in the 2nd half today......He didn't have many assists but for the most part he made good decisions with the ball.

WL is so bad it is hard to really know what we have.

Cohen's 3 point shooting stood out to me....we need to make those to have a chance...

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on November 08, 2014, 04:34:50 PM
Agreed...I would prefer to have him avg 0-5 mpg, but am hoping Wojo keeps it under 10. It's time to move forward with a new starting PG!

Wojo (like Buzz) will play Derrick more minutes than you prefer. Given our rosters the past 2 seasons so would Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson and John Wooden. Idiots all - why can't you be our coach?

Derrick is going to start off the season but will quickly be replaced by Duane. Derrick will still see significant defensive minutes.

We should also see some pretty scary 4 guard lineups with Duane, Carlino, Cohen, JJJ, and Burton.

Quote from: TheBurrEffect on November 08, 2014, 05:34:53 PM
Derrick is going to start off the season but will quickly be replaced by Duane. Derrick will still see significant defensive minutes.

We should also see some pretty scary 4 guard lineups with Duane, Carlino, Cohen, JJJ, and Burton.

This wouldn't surprise me.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 08, 2014, 05:23:53 PM
Wojo (like Buzz) will play Derrick more minutes than you prefer. Given our rosters the past 2 seasons so would Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson and John Wooden. Idiots all - why can't you be our coach?

I don't think they would and I wouldn't be so sure of that. I still expect him to be the token starter, but as the year progresses, he will get less and less time. I'm actually kind of surprised with all your wisdom, that you aren't the coach of this team...they must have only had you on the search committee  ;)

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on November 08, 2014, 04:34:50 PM
Agreed...I would prefer to have him avg 0-5 mpg, but am hoping Wojo keeps it under 10. It's time to move forward with a new starting PG!

Dude, come on. We have 9 players on our team. You really think Derrick is worthless as a college player? He averaged 13 mpg on an elite 8 team with a full bench.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 08, 2014, 06:20:16 PM
Dude, come on. We have 9 players on our team. You really think Derrick is worthless as a college player? He averaged 13 mpg on an elite 8 team with a full bench.

Maybe my 0-5mpg comment was out of line. I don't think he is worthless at all. I think he is a good leader and can play valuable defense. I think he can be these things and contribute playing 5-10mpg...but imo, if it's more than that, we are going to be playing really stagnant offense again.

Mark it down.  Derrick is the starting Point Guard on this team.  Carlino starts at the #2.  Expect both to see very significant minutes.

Quote from: Untucked on November 08, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
Absolutely!! If Derrick Wilson plays more than 10-12 minutes per game..this team will not improve.

Would you PLEASE, PLEASE give the kid a chance to improve? Let him show his stuff. He he does what we hope he does, he'll be playing.

That's because he earned it and can help us win.

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 08, 2014, 06:52:03 PM
Would you PLEASE, PLEASE give the kid a chance to improve? Let him show his stuff. He he does what we hope he does, he'll be playing.

That's because he earned it and can help us win.

+1

Quote from: jsglow on November 08, 2014, 06:48:26 PM
Mark it down.  Derrick is the starting Point Guard on this team.  Carlino starts at the #2.  Expect both to see very significant minutes.

highly doubt if Derrick hasn't improved significantly over last year, he'll be playing typical starter minutes. He may get token starts being a senior if he's essentially the same player as last year, but...if he hasn't improved he won't be playing more than 15 by conference play. He's the furthest thing from a prototypical starting PG you will see at this level.  Today did nothing to change my opinion. I saw very little penetration on his part, forcing help, creative passing etc. Hell they even said during broadcast in first half Wojo was telling push it and Derrick was walking the ball up as we saw most all of last year.

Derrick's ideal role is as a defensive stopper/change of pace/leader. On a good team, he would get 10-15 mpg. On a great team, he might not play at all (although, as was pointed out, he averaged 13 mpg on our Elite Eight team). On a short-handed, mediocre team, which is exactly what we expected to be, he will get more.

I think it would be a good sign if he averages fewer than 20 mpg, but I will trust Wojo to do what is right as he transitions from this end-of-Buzz-era team to a very bright future beginning in 2015-16.

Wojo has said ther will not be a dsignated point gurd on this team. Any guard on the floor is the point guard when he has the ball.

Quote from: TheBurrEffect on November 08, 2014, 05:34:53 PM
Derrick is going to start off the season but will quickly be replaced by Duane. Derrick will still see significant defensive minutes.

We should also see some pretty scary 4 guard lineups with Duane, Carlino, Cohen, JJJ, and Burton.

Why would you call Burton a guard?  Height?  Was Charles Barkley a guard?

Quote from: bilsu on November 08, 2014, 07:10:08 PM
Wojo has said ther will not be a dsignated point gurd on this team. Any guard on the floor is the point guard when he has the ball.

I agree with that.  It seems that both Matt and Derrick will handle the ball when they are both on the court.  I thought Carlino played well despite the fact that his shot didn't drop as well as he'd like.

I hope Derrick gets 15 minutes or less because that would mean that Duane, Dawson, and/or Matt are playing better than he is

Quote from: jsglow on November 08, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
I agree with that.  It seems that both Matt and Derrick will handle the ball when they are both on the court.  I thought Carlino played well despite the fact that his shot didn't drop as well as he'd like.

I agree with this.  I thought (overall) that Derrick and Carlino were our two best guards today.  Duane Wilson scored a bunch, but overall didn't think his game looked strong enough for later competition.

It's funny that some people on this board are making season-long predictions based on today's game. Players and teams evolve during the year, and at best it's a stretch to call the game a baseline because the opponent was so bad. Let's give these guys some time to see what they can be before we start demanding changes.

Quote from: forgetful on November 08, 2014, 07:44:00 PM
I agree with this.  I thought (overall) that Derrick and Carlino were our two best guards today.  Duane Wilson scored a bunch, but overall didn't think his game looked strong enough for later competition.

I saw 19 conference games last year of Derricks play not being strong enough...and I've seen 1 game of Duane Wilson playing against the same guys as Derrick did today. I'd say Duane showed himself pretty well and Derrick was about what we'd expect.  They are two entirely different players one is built like a brick shithouse and other not so much. One is much quicker and a better shooter, yet not nearly as strong/physical presence..yet technically only a freshman and much more the future of the program.

Quote from: Untucked on November 08, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
Absolutely!! If Derrick Wilson plays more than 10-12 minutes per game..this team will not improve.

True we need Duane or matt out there. Duane looked amazing at times with some killer driving ability.

That spin move finish Duane made in the 2cd is somthing neither Derrick,John, or matt could even think of doing.

I thought Duane looked like he had his step back in the 2nd with his injury.  He was tentative in the 1st half with this being his first game. Duane and Carlino had 11 steals between them.  Carlino's 8 assists after half time adjustments was impressive as he seemed to take charge with DEWilson sitting.  I thought Matt was chucking too often in the 1st half as the 2G, and was out of rhythm versus when he was the PG in the 2nd.

Quote from: Johnny B on November 08, 2014, 08:56:50 PM
That spin move finish Duane made in the 2cd is somthing neither Derrick,John, or matt could even think of doing.

Duane has a much different level of athletic ability than the other guards.  We have significantly more upside with him in the lineup.

Duane made a huge leap just from the first half to the second.   Clearly can get to the rim at will against D3 competition.   But this is what I was expecting to see from him last year.    He got the third most minutes at point, though, behind Derrick and Carlino.   The only way I see that changing is if the season goes poorly and Wojo starts to build for next year. 

Quote from: tower912 on November 08, 2014, 10:10:28 PM
Duane made a huge leap just from the first half to the second.   Clearly can get to the rim at will against D3 competition.   But this is what I was expecting to see from him last year.    He got the third most minutes at point, though, behind Derrick and Carlino.   The only way I see that changing is if the season goes poorly and Wojo starts to build for next year. 

Duane was understandably nervous playing in his first college game. He got that behind him and the future is very bright.

Assuming Wojo is going to press all the time, Derrick is going to get 15+ minutes. You need fresh guards to press all the time.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 08, 2014, 07:42:36 PM
I hope Derrick gets 15 minutes or less because that would mean that Duane, Dawson, and/or Matt are playing better than he is

This.

And it has nothing to do with the exhibition game, which I didn't see a minute of.

I didn't need to. I saw too many minutes of Derrick last season.

Quote from: LittleDillard on November 08, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Why would you call Burton a guard?  Height?  Was Charles Barkley a guard?

If were going with height comparisons for positions instead of attributes like dribbling ability, speed, power ect. Then at 6-4 he is as close to a guard as he is to a forward.

As for actual play he plays much more like a guard then he does forward.

I really liked Duane in this game. Hopeful that he can be a 20+ minute contributor going forward. Though I did have a moment in the second half where I thought: "damn, it he took a no pass, contested three, with 20 seconds still left on the shot clock like that when Buzz was coach...he would have sat for the rest of the season!"

Cohen also looked silky smooth. Was very pleasantly surprised.

FWIW, I was very pleased with the way Duane played in the second half.    And they are all going to have to be 20 mpg contributors.

I saw three pretty decent point guards play for MU today and was pleased not only with their individual play but also with the different looks they enable us to give opponents. 

I also think we're going to see Derrick playing off the ball a bit this year because he's not a bad rebounder.  For a couple minutes it seemed he was playing a "mini-4".  If he can guard a bigger man (not the case today), box out and get a couple boards that would be a nice contribution to this size-challenged team. 

I didn't see the game, but I got the impression from twitter that WL's guards were awful.  I think it is probably difficult to make a presumption about any of them until you see them against scholarship kids at least.

Oh boy--here we go again, countless posts glorifying the Elite One. Well we can end the hyperbole now. The Elite One will always be that. But Duane Wilson will soon be the man!

Quote from: willie warrior on November 09, 2014, 07:05:44 AM
Oh boy--here we go again, countless posts glorifying the Elite One. Well we can end the hyperbole now. The Elite One will always be that. But Duane Wilson will soon be the man!

At the end of the season what will Derrick's average MPG be?

it will be interesting to see how wojo handles it...derrick doesn't have an upside unless he helps you achieve a level of wins that  makes it worth it.  if henry is a one or two year player...i wouldn't want to waste that opportunity by not having a PG on the team that has seen true time at the position.  if i'm wojo, looking at this team, i might find it a lot smarter to play duane and john heavy at the point in hopes that by mid-year they are as good as derrick and by the end of the year better.  that leaves you in a lot better position in 2015-16.  in my opinion, seniors have to be noticeable better than anyone else on the team to play as their development is essentially over. 

If this game is any reflection of how Wojo is going to play this season there is going to be a two man rotation between Carlino and Derrick Wilson. Most of the time Duane was off ball and either Carlino or Derrick were at point. Duane will be capable of playing the point and will do so on occasion but he won't be logging his majority of minutes there.

On thing which was apparent is that Dawson is the last guy off the bench. He was the only one without 20+ minutes and his stat line was unimpressive against D3 talent. Some of this was foul related. If Dawson is the last man off the bench and does not have much PT then another Buzz blew the season hypothesis goes away.

Based on the majority of comments in this thread I think we all agree if Duane was available last season then Derrick would not have played 30+ minutes.

Quote from: avid1010 on November 09, 2014, 07:47:37 AM
it will be interesting to see how wojo handles it...derrick doesn't have an upside unless he helps you achieve a level of wins that  makes it worth it.  if henry is a one or two year player...i wouldn't want to waste that opportunity by not having a PG on the team that has seen true time at the position.  if i'm wojo, looking at this team, i might find it a lot smarter to play duane and john heavy at the point in hopes that by mid-year they are as good as derrick and by the end of the year better.  that leaves you in a lot better position in 2015-16.  in my opinion, seniors have to be noticeable better than anyone else on the team to play as their development is essentially over. 

You play to win the games in front of you. 

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 09, 2014, 06:09:58 AM
I saw three pretty decent point guards play for MU today and was pleased not only with their individual play but also with the different looks they enable us to give opponents. 

I also think we're going to see Derrick playing off the ball a bit this year because he's not a bad rebounder.  For a couple minutes it seemed he was playing a "mini-4".  If he can guard a bigger man (not the case today), box out and get a couple boards that would be a nice contribution to this size-challenged team. 

Now that is funny. The Elite one as a mini-4! Let's go full enchilada and make him a mini-5, since he is such an elite gamechanger.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 09, 2014, 09:55:08 AM
Now that is funny. The Elite one as a mini-4! Let's go full enchilada and make him a mini-5, since he is such an elite gamechanger.

Dude, it's a new season.  Time for people to let it go.

Quote from: BallBoy on November 09, 2014, 08:45:06 AM

On thing which was apparent is that Dawson is the last guy off the bench. He was the only one without 20+ minutes and his stat line was unimpressive against D3 talent. Some of this was foul related. If Dawson is the last man off the bench and does not have much PT then another Buzz blew the season hypothesis goes away.

This does not surprise me.

Dawson had one good stretch in one game last season. He might have had a few more if he were given the opportunity, but then again he might have been exposed as a relatively untalented player, too. I'm on record as saying I wish he would have gotten a chance just because what Buzz was doing obviously wasn't working, but I certainly didn't see anything that screamed, "John Dawson is a high-major starting PG!"

He looks to be an end-of-rotation player who might or might not develop into a contributor one day -- which is pretty much what most thought he would be when he was brought in as the last man in that recruiting class. Just looking at their respective sizes and attributes, Sandy Cohen would seem much more likely to a contributor at this level, and I have no idea if that will be the case, either.

I think it's safe to say that if Dawson can't find playing time this season and will have been judged inadequate by a second coaching staff, he would have to seriously consider going to a mid-major where he could play.

But who knows? Maybe an injury or some other circumstance will force Dawson to be given an extended run and he will prove me wrong. One of the great things about sports is that those kind of crazy stories happen pretty darn often.

I think Dawson has a well rounded game.  He can handle well, shoot well and defend well.  The question that is still out there is if he can do any of that with consistency at a high-major level.  We will see after this season how much of a chance he gets, but there still will be opportunities next year.  Derrick and Carlino will be leaving, and the only other returning guard with "point skills" will be Duane.  And Nick is the only incoming player at this point that would threaten taking away time at the point.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 08, 2014, 06:20:16 PM
Dude, come on. We have 9 players on our team. You really think Derrick is worthless as a college player? He averaged 13 mpg on an elite 8 team with a full bench.

You are right - statistically. In reality, he got those 13 minutes only because he was the only other true PG on the team and someone had to give Junior a break and step in when he got into foul trouble.

Buzz' choices were a brutally bad PG with some defensive value or a freshman who wasn't ready. I think an argument could be made (and has been here) to go in either direction. Buzz made a decision and it worked out terribly. Chances are it would have been the same if he went the other route, but we will never know.

Quote from: TheBurrEffect on November 08, 2014, 11:17:57 PM
If were going with height comparisons for positions instead of attributes like dribbling ability, speed, power ect. Then at 6-4 he is as close to a guard as he is to a forward.

As for actual play he plays much more like a guard then he does forward.

Huh????

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 09, 2014, 10:13:05 AM
I think Dawson has a well rounded game.  He can handle well, shoot well and defend well.  The question that is still out there is if he can do any of that with consistency at a high-major level.  We will see after this season how much of a chance he gets, but there still will be opportunities next year.  Derrick and Carlino will be leaving, and the only other returning guard with "point skills" will be Duane.  And Nick is the only incoming player at this point that would threaten taking away time at the point.

Perhaps.

But I have read many reports that Cohen and, especially, Cheatham have some point-guard skills. And Wojo might prefer to give minutes to those kinds of players as opposed to a less-talented guy who supposedly is "more point-guardy."

Again, this is all conjecture -- more than I'm comfortable with, frankly. Maybe Dawson will get a real chance this season and will do some good things to suggest he does have what it takes to succeed at this level.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 09, 2014, 09:55:08 AM
Now that is funny. The Elite one as a mini-4! Let's go full enchilada and make him a mini-5, since he is such an elite gamechanger.

Seriously???  I said box out and a couple boards.  Not "elite" nor "gamechanger".  Read my previous posts on Derrick, I'm a realist... BUT -   He's the strongest guy on the team.  He might need to guard someone bigger out of necessity.  

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 09, 2014, 10:18:00 AM
Seriously???  I said box out and a couple boards.  Not "elite" nor "gamechanger".  Read my previous posts on Derrick, I'm a realist... BUT -   He's the strongest guy on the team.  He might need to guard someone bigger out of necessity.  

Yesterday, Duane was guarding one of WL's 'bigs' in the post.   The WL post was able to hold Duane off with one arm.   Duane is longer, but he is still very thin.   Sometimes, Derrick is going to have to wrestle the 6'7 guy simply because of his strength and tenacity.    Preferred option?  Of course not.   Best of a selection of bad options?   Sometimes. 

Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2014, 10:05:18 AM
This does not surprise me.

Dawson had one good stretch in one game last season. He might have had a few more if he were given the opportunity, but then again he might have been exposed as a relatively untalented player, too. I'm on record as saying I wish he would have gotten a chance just because what Buzz was doing obviously wasn't working, but I certainly didn't see anything that screamed, "John Dawson is a high-major starting PG!"

He looks to be an end-of-rotation player who might or might not develop into a contributor one day -- which is pretty much what most thought he would be when he was brought in as the last man in that recruiting class. Just looking at their respective sizes and attributes, Sandy Cohen would seem much more likely to a contributor at this level, and I have no idea if that will be the case, either.

I think it's safe to say that if Dawson can't find playing time this season and will have been judged inadequate by a second coaching staff, he would have to seriously consider going to a mid-major where he could play.

But who knows? Maybe an injury or some other circumstance will force Dawson to be given an extended run and he will prove me wrong. One of the great things about sports is that those kind of crazy stories happen pretty darn often.

I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 09, 2014, 11:01:07 AM
I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

So you admit we played a team who couldn't win at the Y yet you dismiss his poor performance due to foul trouble? Must just be a coincidence that he got called for fouls while nobody else in MU did. Or it could be that he can't even guard players on a team that wouldn't even win at the Y (your words) without fouling. That doesn't bode well for being able to guard legitimate D1 teams...

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 09, 2014, 11:01:07 AM
I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

I don't anyone said that. The person you directly quoted said if he doesn't get time this year then there are now two coaching staffs that he wasn't ready at this level.

Arm chair coaching? Teapot meet kettle

Quote from: BallBoy on November 09, 2014, 12:17:06 PM
I don't anyone said that. The person you directly quoted said if he doesn't get time this year then there are now two coaching staffs that he wasn't ready at this level.

Arm chair coaching? Teapot meet kettle

You guys know it all.. Hes still on the team so theres nothing much more to talk about... Carry on..

The only thing we learned from WL is that Derrick is going to get minutes this year, which given our 9 players is not a surprise.  What was a surprise was the few minutes Dawson got.  Seeing the Luthers play there really is little else that can be said.  I am sure the staff wanted to see our guys against some other guys, but they barely got that.  I reserve all judgement and opinion until we have some basis.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 09, 2014, 12:06:55 PM
So you admit we played a team who couldn't win at the Y yet you dismiss his poor performance due to foul trouble? Must just be a coincidence that he got called for fouls while nobody else in MU did. Or it could be that he can't even guard players on a team that wouldn't even win at the Y (your words) without fouling. That doesn't bode well for being able to guard legitimate D1 teams...

Dawson didn't have a good outing yesterday, but to suggest he couldn't guard D-3 players is ridiculous.  He's a good defender.  Second best on team after the all world defender Derrick last season with regard to points per 100 possessions played.

One foul Homer commented the producer who rarely ever reacts to anything/calls, actually let out a sigh..as in awful call..which we didn't even see on the broadcast...was on an inbounds play.  Another of the fouls was providing help defense, where he took a foul for the team to prevent a sure lay up by WLC. Missed 2 shots.  Nothing else.

It's pretty remarkable to me at all the conclusions being drawn from this game against a D-3 opponent.  Even more remarkable that after 975 minutes of seeing everything Derrick Wilson could do last year, some still feel he's a major minute player this season.  If you want to draw any conclusions from the game with regard to PG pecking order...it's Carlino, Duane, Derrick.  Dawson isn't being slotted for PG on this team, and I feel that's a good decision - when you have Carlino and Duane.

Also, I wouldn't get too excited at this point about Juan or Cohen, until they face guys with much more strength and athleticism.  Cohen looks to have a lot of potential, yet until I see him do it against D-1 athletes, I'm not going to get too excited.  He has a ways to go in strength, but the skills are there.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 09, 2014, 02:34:21 PM
Dawson didn't have a good outing yesterday, but to suggest he couldn't guard D-3 players is ridiculous.  He's a good defender.  Second best on team after the all world defender Derrick last season with regard to points per 100 possessions played.

One foul Homer commented the producer who rarely ever reacts to anything/calls, actually let out a sigh..as in awful call..which we didn't even see on the broadcast...was on an inbounds play.  Another of the fouls was providing help defense, where he took a foul for the team to prevent a sure lay up by WLC. Missed 2 shots.  Nothing else.

It's pretty remarkable to me at all the conclusions being drawn from this game against a D-3 opponent.  Even more remarkable that after 975 minutes of seeing everything Derrick Wilson could do last year, some still feel he's a major minute player this season.  If you want to draw any conclusions from the game with regard to PG pecking order...it's Carlino, Duane, Derrick.  Dawson isn't being slotted for PG on this team, and I feel that's a good decision - when you have Carlino and Duane.

Also, I wouldn't get too excited at this point about Juan or Cohen, until they face guys with much more strength and athleticism.  Cohen looks to have a lot of potential, yet until I see him do it against D-1 athletes, I'm not going to get too excited.  He has a ways to go in strength, but the skills are there.

Being completely honest.  The more you talk about Derrick and Dawson, the less I think you understand about basketball. 

Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Being completely honest.  The more you talk about Derrick and Dawson, the less I think you understand about basketball. 

LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 09, 2014, 04:17:29 PM
LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

You've never pointed out these stats before?  What has taken you so long?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 09, 2014, 04:23:38 PM

You've never pointed out these stats before?  What has taken you so long?

It just dawned on me after forgetful's post that I needed to re-evaluate my understanding of basketball.  So, I dug a little deeper, and found those "forgetful" stats and drew those conclusions.

I do look forward to forgetful's reply, enlightening me as to where my understanding of basketball could be improved.   Hopefully, I'll get a response to my post that will articulate his position as to how what I posted illustrates a clear misunderstanding of basketball. 

On this team everyone will need to contribute, including Derrick. The question is how will Wojo use him compared to how Brent did last year.

And I agree you can't use yesterday's game as an accurate indicator of Dawson's ability.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 09, 2014, 04:17:29 PM
LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 09, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

On top of that, we've only seen a little of what Dawson can do while we see a lot of what Derrick can do because 2 coaches who get paid millions of dollars to decide who is better have decided Derrick is better.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 09, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
On top of that, we've only seen a little of what Dawson can do while we see a lot of what Derrick can do because 2 coaches who get paid millions of dollars to decide who is better have decided Derrick is better.

Maybe we've seen all Dawson can do...

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 09, 2014, 11:01:07 AM
I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

I agree with this. The way I look at it, we have the entire non conference season to get a more accurate read on young Mr. Dawson's ability.  Given all the pressing on defense that is likely to occur, Dawson will get at least 10-15 minutes each game. I am looking forward to seeing what he can do to help our cause.  For what ever it is worth the coaches have consistently said in interviews that John has to keep it simple and avoid turnovers. So I am going to be focusing on that aspect of his game. Hopefully he can work his way into a productive role.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 09, 2014, 09:40:22 AM

You play to win the games in front of you. 

that's ridiculous...i've personally listened to some of the best coaches in the game, most noteable tom izzo, speak on coaching conferences where they state they are more than willing to give up a little early in the season to be playing the best ball in march.  and while referencing tom crean may not add support to the argument...i listened to him discuss his rationale for giving so many minutes early on to certain players...during certain years as well.

Quote from: avid1010 on November 09, 2014, 09:46:38 PM
that's ridiculous...i've personally listened to some of the best coaches in the game, most noteable tom izzo, speak on coaching conferences where they state they are more than willing to give up a little early in the season to be playing the best ball in march.  and while referencing tom crean may not add support to the argument...i listened to him discuss his rationale for giving so many minutes early on to certain players...during certain years as well.

In your previous post, you were mentioning sitting Derrick to get better for next year.  In this one you are mentioning giving guys minutes early on so they have experience for later in the year.

You do realize those are two completely different things right?  I mean, that's one of the reasons these cupcake games are on the schedule.

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 09, 2014, 11:01:07 AM
I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

Umm ... I didn't say a single thing you are criticizing me for in this post.

All I said is that Dawson hasn't shown much as a Warrior. That is not based on an exhibition game that I didn't even see. It is based upon what we saw last season.

If you think Dawson is wonderful, good for you. If you think fans can't come on a fan board and talk about the team, even if that talk is critical, you might want to find other Internet sites to peruse.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 09, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get...and you have an VERY relevant sample size of what Derrick can do.  So, to your point...we've seen very little of Dawson...and to evaluate after 1 exhibition game against WL is ridiculous. 

I don't think it's any surprise Derrick will get the opportunity to start this season - he's a high character kid, he's the incumbent, he's a senior - he certainly isn't an option to play at the shooting guard position, whereas Carlino, Duane and Dawson could all play that position along with Cohen and JJJ.  So, by default he's a PG.  Certainly he could be better than last year through his hard work, along with being surrounded by a better supporting cast than what Buzz chose to roll out last season.  Should be interesting to see how this season plays out.

Personally, I'm not going to draw a whole lot of conclusions on any of our guys this year until January - other than knowing Carlino and Burton should be solid and consistently our best scoring options.

Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2014, 09:54:23 PM
Umm ... I didn't say a single thing you are criticizing me for in this post.

All I said is that Dawson hasn't shown much as a Warrior. That is not based on an exhibition game that I didn't even see. It is based upon what we saw last season.

If you think Dawson is wonderful, good for you. If you think fans can't come on a fan board and talk about the team, even if that talk is critical, you might want to find other Internet sites to peruse.

Well of course he didn't, the Warriors lost 115-47

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 09, 2014, 10:18:00 AM
Seriously???  I said box out and a couple boards.  Not "elite" nor "gamechanger".  Read my previous posts on Derrick, I'm a realist... BUT -   He's the strongest guy on the team.  He might need to guard someone bigger out of necessity.  

Seriously????????????????? You said he should be a mini 4-I didn't. Buzz said he was an elite game changer. You said he is the strongest guy on the team. Who else has said that as fact. Since he is the strongest and is elite, he should be able to defend anybody. Right? Right? Seriously?????

That is laughable. Pretty tired of the raves for a PG that can't shoot, is marginal on FT's, has limited vision, can't take it to the hole, is a liability on offense, but is an average defender. But hey, he tries so we need to keep him in the game and hope lightning strikes.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 09, 2014, 09:51:52 PM

In your previous post, you were mentioning sitting Derrick to get better for next year.  In this one you are mentioning giving guys minutes early on so they have experience for later in the year.

You do realize those are two completely different things right?  I mean, that's one of the reasons these cupcake games are on the schedule.

correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same.  

that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."...that's a far stretch from "you play to be your best in march."  if that's the case coaches would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as they would have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game/more difficult games/march.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 09, 2014, 10:52:21 PM
By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get...and you have an VERY relevant sample size of what Derrick can do.  So, to your point...we've seen very little of Dawson...and to evaluate after 1 exhibition game against WL is ridiculous. 

I don't think it's any surprise Derrick will get the opportunity to start this season - he's a high character kid, he's the incumbent, he's a senior - he certainly isn't an option to play at the shooting guard position, whereas Carlino, Duane and Dawson could all play that position along with Cohen and JJJ.  So, by default he's a PG.  Certainly he could be better than last year through his hard work, along with being surrounded by a better supporting cast than what Buzz chose to roll out last season.  Should be interesting to see how this season plays out.

Personally, I'm not going to draw a whole lot of conclusions on any of our guys this year until January - other than knowing Carlino and Burton should be solid and consistently our best scoring options.

You asked how people could prefer Derrick over Dawson despite the disparity in sample sizes, I gave you an answer. And by sample size, I'm not talking about just the WLC game, I'm talking about all of last season. I agree that Dawson should have gotten more time last season, but after looking at Derrick's large sample size and Dawson's small sample size, I preferred Derrick. Not because he was good, but because Dawson wasn't better (IMHO). Maybe if Dawson got more run (which I was hoping for) maybe he would have shown us more and my opinion would have changed. Maybe he will get more run this season and he will show me something to change my mind. I agree that I don't think we can make any true judgments about this team until much later in the season.

Quote from: avid1010 on November 10, 2014, 07:36:25 AM
correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same.  that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."  if that's the case we would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as we have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game or more difficult game. 

Early in the year "playing to win the game" and "playing to win in March" are not mutually exclusive.  You can tinker with lineups and get people some minutes without significantly risking your odds of winning against cupcakes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 09, 2014, 10:52:21 PM
By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get.

Honest differences of opinion are part of what makes the world go around. We get it. You think that Derrick is as bad as bad can get. And we get it that you think you are more qualified to come to that conclusion than we are to come to a different one. But as you laugh at us and ridicule us and say we're not worthy to differ with your opinion please remember that our conclusion (that Derrick, while SEVERELY LIMITED as a point guard, is a better option than Dawson at that position) is the same one that two coaches (after months of daily observation) came to. I won't be a total dick and say that these guys have forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know (although that's true). And I won't further conclude that because they are infinitely more qualified to judge who should or shouldn't play (although that's true, too) that your opinion is worthless. Because it's an OPINION, and there's always a chance that your less informed opinion than theirs might be right. But PLEASE, PLEASE, stop with the crap that you're the expert and we're not worthy to disagree. The real experts are on our side of the argument.

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

Derrick and John are guys who are way above-average at making extremely difficult shots/plays, are way below-average at making the extremely easy shots/plays, and are about average at making the average-difficulty stuff.  And since the distribution in D-I hoops certainly favors a frequency of shots/plays that skew towards the easy side of average, whoever gets more PT is going to be more frustrating than the other.

In other words, the same people who favor Dawson over Derrick would favor Derrick over Dawson if the PT situation were reversed.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 10, 2014, 08:17:01 AM
You asked how people could prefer Derrick over Dawson despite the disparity in sample sizes, I gave you an answer. And by sample size, I'm not talking about just the WLC game, I'm talking about all of last season. I agree that Dawson should have gotten more time last season, but after looking at Derrick's large sample size and Dawson's small sample size, I preferred Derrick. Not because he was good, but because Dawson wasn't better (IMHO). Maybe if Dawson got more run (which I was hoping for) maybe he would have shown us more and my opinion would have changed. Maybe he will get more run this season and he will show me something to change my mind. I agree that I don't think we can make any true judgments about this team until much later in the season.

John will get ample opportunity in the non conference season to show us what he can go. I am reserving my view on him till then .In the meantime rooting hard for him to show us something positive as you point out. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 10, 2014, 09:41:41 AM
Honest differences of opinion are part of what makes the world go around. We get it. You think that Derrick is as bad as bad can get. And we get it that you think you are more qualified to come to that conclusion than we are to come to a different one. But as you laugh at us and ridicule us and say we're not worthy to differ with your opinion please remember that our conclusion (that Derrick, while SEVERELY LIMITED as a point guard, is a better option than Dawson at that position) is the same one that two coaches (after months of daily observation) came to. I won't be a total dick and say that these guys have forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know (although that's true). And I won't further conclude that because they are infinitely more qualified to judge who should or shouldn't play (although that's true, too) that your opinion is worthless. Because it's an OPINION, and there's always a chance that your less informed opinion than theirs might be right. But PLEASE, PLEASE, stop with the crap that you're the expert and we're not worthy to disagree. The real experts are on our side of the argument.

Look, a new coach, that himself wasn't a high scoring PG, who had struggled as a junior in his own career, and was told by Coach K...he'd likely be sitting on the bench if he didn't improve significantly as a senior (which Wojo did do..jury still out on Derrick), isn't going to come into a program, and immediately demote the incumbent, high character, hard working, senior, at the ONLY position he could potentially play - PG.

I wouldn't get too excited over drawing conclusions from 1 game against WLC, as to how this whole season is going to play out.  But if you want to draw conclusions from WLC, what grade would you apply to DeWilson's game?  I know 3 of 4 FT shooting is something to be ECSTATIC over from Derrick...given how incredibly low Derrick's bar has been set based on past performance.

Buzz, the "expert" of last season truly showed brilliant coaching chops.  Predicted to win Big East, more returning experience than ever before in his tenure and we missed the freaking NIT.  He jacked around with the roster at ALL positions other than the two most evident weak links on the team.  Brilliant Buzz!!!  Buzz bailed at the end of the season, was basically out the door as of January, and clearly had no interest in developing his freshman.  Alienated JJJ, Steve, Jamil and Devante as well.  Lost that whole team last year due to his expert analysis/coaching. 

I've never annointed myself as an expert, simply stated what my experience and exposure to the game has been...yet find myself in debates with wrestler's here on occasion who now basically say, "the real experts are on our side of the argument."

But since you are so confident in Derrick, will you please let us all know what your expectations are for him this season on minutes per game, ppg, FT shooting percentage, 3PT FG percentage?  Would be nice to get a baseline as to what you are expecting.  Let's hear it.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 10, 2014, 01:58:33 PM


I've never annointed myself as an expert, simply stated what my experience and exposure to the game has been...yet find myself in debates with wrestler's here on occasion who now basically say, "the real experts are on our side of the argument."

So to summarize: Wojo, Buzz and I think Derrick Wilson is a better choice at point guard than John Dawson. You disagree, and feel my opinion is worthless next to yours because you played basketball in high school. But you don't think your opinion is worthless next to Buzz's and Wojo's, who make millions coaching the sport. Maybe the most egotistical, self important and presumptuous (not to mention illogical) post in Scoop history.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 10, 2014, 01:58:33 PM
Look, a new coach, that himself wasn't a high scoring PG, who had struggled as a junior in his own career, and was told by Coach K...he'd likely be sitting on the bench if he didn't improve significantly as a senior (which Wojo did do..jury still out on Derrick), isn't going to come into a program, and immediately demote the incumbent, high character, hard working, senior, at the ONLY position he could potentially play - PG.

This is all total BS. Wojo will favor Derrick because he wasn't a good shooter? Or because he himself struggled as a junior? Wojo wouldn't be IMMEDIATELY demoting Derrick and promoting Dawson - he's been here for 7 months. And in that 7 months what has he determined? From what we hear it's not just that Dawson isn't good enough to beat out Derrick at the point - he's not good enough to play it period.

Adding Wojo's college career to your Derrick/Dawson conspiracy theories is pretty much jumping the shark.   Again.   For the nth time. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 10, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
So to summarize: Wojo, Buzz and I think Derrick Wilson is a better choice at point guard than John Dawson. You disagree, and feel my opinion is worthless next to yours because you played basketball in high school. But you don't think your opinion is worthless next to Buzz's and Wojo's, who make millions coaching the sport. Maybe the most egotistical, self important and presumptuous (not to mention illogical) post in Scoop history.

I said when Dawson came in that he would probably contribute next to nothing until his junior year and would be a productive role player his last two years. I still stand by that.

But it is probably the semantics between Derrick being the better option and Derrick being a good option that causes the problem. Last year, Derrick was probably the better option, but he was still a bad option.

I think a lot of the problem was that with a bad PG, any change seems like it would be better. We know John would have scored more than Derrick given the same minutes. We don't know how much John's negatives would have negated the increase in scoring from the position.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 10, 2014, 01:58:33 PM


But since you are so confident in Derrick, will you please let us all know what your expectations are for him this season on minutes per game, ppg, FT shooting percentage, 3PT FG percentage?  Would be nice to get a baseline as to what you are expecting.  Let's hear it.

Here's what I'm confident of:

1. Derrick will still be a lousy shooter.
2. Derrick will play more minutes at the point than John D, and it won't be because the coach is throwing games, or because he's the incumbent, or because the coach likes him better.
3. You're going to owe this dumb baseball player/wrestler $500

What are you confident of?

Quote from: brandx on November 10, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
I said when Dawson came in that he would probably contribute next to nothing until his junior year and would be a productive role player his last two years. I still stand by that.

But it is probably the semantics between Derrick being the better option and Derrick being a good option that causes the problem. Last year, Derrick was probably the better option, but he was still a bad option.

I think a lot of the problem was that with a bad PG, any change seems like it would be better. We know John would have scored more than Derrick given the same minutes. We don't know how much John's negatives would have negated the increase in scoring from the position.

Brand - I don't think anyone who thought Derrick gave us a better chance to win last year argued that Derrick was good - only that he was the better of two very poor options. Buzz agreed - he even tried Jamil and Mayo at the point. If that doesn't indicate desperation nothing does.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 10, 2014, 02:50:33 PM
This is all total BS. Wojo will favor Derrick because he wasn't a good shooter? Or because he himself struggled as a junior? Wojo wouldn't be IMMEDIATELY demoting Derrick and promoting Dawson - he's been here for 7 months. And in that 7 months what has he determined? From what we hear it's not just that Dawson isn't good enough to beat out Derrick at the point - he's not good enough to play it period.

I'm saying you aren't going to demote the incumbent, senior, high character kid immediately..particularly when you, yourself, where a struggling, defensive minded point guard yourself as a collegiate player - who then went on to show solid improvement as a senior, after being challenged by Coach K.  What part of that can't you understand??

I guarantee you, if we see a carbon copy of what we saw last year, with teams sagging 5 feet off of Derrick in the half court..and continued 43% FT shooting, Wojo is NOT going to continue to play Derrick Wilson even close to 20 minutes, much less 30 that Buzz played him last year.  Of course this season he has Carlino, Duane and Dawson (if he wants) to choose to play alternatively.  Of course Buzz could have chosen to play Dawson 20 a game last year, even if he didn't feel he was a good option at the position...because in reality, it could not have gotten any worse than having a player be totally and completely disrespected and not guarded in the half court.  Somehow I doubt Dawson's deficiencies would have rendered last year's team playing every offensive possession 3 on 5, versus the 4 on 5 Derrick "brought to the table."

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 10, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
Here's what I'm confident of:

1. Derrick will still be a lousy shooter.
2. Derrick will play more minutes at the point than John D, and it won't be because the coach is throwing games, or because he's the incumbent, or because the coach likes him better.
3. You're going to owe this dumb baseball player/wrestler $500

What are you confident of?

It doesn't matter who will play more minutes at the point...our bet was made on total minutes played.  I took John because I felt he at least can play two positions if needed.  Derrick?  It's PG or bust..as we all know he aint gonna be playing any shooting guard.

I'm confident Dawson will shoot higher percentages in all categories than will Derrick.  That's what I'm confident of.  

And btw Lenny, we both know you aren't dumb per se...you are just a baseball player and wrestler discussing basketball.

;D

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 10, 2014, 03:17:34 PM
It doesn't matter who will play more minutes at the point...our bet was made on total minutes played.  I took John because I felt he at least can play two positions if needed.  Derrick?  It's PG or bust..as we all know he aint gonna be playing any shooting guard.

I'm confident Dawson will shoot higher percentages in all categories than will Derrick.  That's what I'm confident of.  

And btw Lenny, we both know you aren't dumb per se...you are just a baseball player and wrestler discussing basketball.

;D

The trouble with this is Wojo has said the team will not have a designated point guard, so Derrick in the same game will be playing at different times the point, the shooting guard and the three. It all depends on who has the ball in their hands. The guard with the ball will be the point guard at that time only.

Quote from: bilsu on November 10, 2014, 03:23:49 PM
The trouble with this is Wojo has said the team will not have a designated point guard, so Derrick in the same game will be playing at different times the point, the shooting guard and the three. It all depends on who has the ball in their hands. The guard with the ball will be the point guard at that time only.

And I'm betting by mid-season Wojo will come to the conclusion that Derrick is not one of the 3 most worthy guards to be getting PT...

I'm of two minds as to how the PG PT plays out.  Prior to his injury, I had assumed that Duane would eventually be the PG on last year's team.   Derrick was about what I expected him to be, as was Dawson.    This year, with the pressure defense to attempt to keep the ball from easily reaching the paint, I can plausibly see Derrick nearly reprising his 30.8 minutes per game, perhaps in the 28 range, with Duane and Carlino splitting the other 12 minutes.   I can also see, if he continues to develop rapidly, Cohen cutting into Dawson's minutes, as Wojo has the opportunity to play 3 forwards up front (until Luke develops) or 2 forwards and JJJ.     There are only 9 guys right now and 10 in a month (assuming everyone stays healthy) so everyone is going to get their chance to play.   But it isn't difficult for me to formulate a scenario where Dawson and Cohen end up 9-10 in minutes played.    Conversely, if everything goes south, I can see Wojo gradually ramping up Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Cohen's minutes at the expense of Derrick, Juan, and Carlino.  Still too many unknowns for me.

Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2014, 03:48:09 PM
I'm of two minds as to how the PG PT plays out.  Prior to his injury, I had assumed that Duane would eventually be the PG on last year's team.   Derrick was about what I expected him to be, as was Dawson.    This year, with the pressure defense to attempt to keep the ball from easily reaching the paint, I can plausibly see Derrick nearly reprising his 30.8 minutes per game, perhaps in the 28 range, with Duane and Carlino splitting the other 12 minutes.   I can also see, if he continues to develop rapidly, Cohen cutting into Dawson's minutes, as Wojo has the opportunity to play 3 forwards up front (until Luke develops) or 2 forwards and JJJ.     There are only 9 guys right now and 10 in a month (assuming everyone stays healthy) so everyone is going to get their chance to play.   But it isn't difficult for me to formulate a scenario where Dawson and Cohen end up 9-10 in minutes played.    Conversely, if everything goes south, I can see Wojo gradually ramping up Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Cohen's minutes at the expense of Derrick, Juan, and Carlino.  Still too many unknowns for me.

I agree with most of your post...yet I don't see anyway Derrick plays 30 this year.  Maybe 20 if it plays out as you discuss with the full court press strategy - at least playing full court press you tap into Derrick's strength of being a very good on ball defender.  Not sure why Buzz refused to use that skill last season or press for that matter.

Would have been interesting to see if Duane was healthy if Buzz would have used him more...given that he only gave Deonte 12 minutes per game and Deonte was buried behind an unproductive upperclassmen, it just seems unlikely.  Buzz, when he had a deep bench/more experienced roster, always favored his upperclassmen.

The only way I see Derrick averaging 30 is if there is an injury.   The only one on the team I can see getting to 30 (once Luke is healthy)(assuming no one is lost for an extended time to injury) is possibly Carlino.    If Wojo is intent on playing uptempo and pressuring everywhere, I don't see anybody playing beyond 27-28.   

My expectations for this years team are low but my hopes are high. Wojo will play all ten guys. He has to. Who gets the minutes will depend on how hard they practice and how they progress through the season. What the seniors will provide is leadership and if that means being a role player all the more to them. I'm sure they'll all be playing to win, but getting the D1 experience which most do not have is key to this year so that next year we can really compete with the better teams.

Dear Lord.  There have been some incredibly stupid arguments made on MUScoop before, and some of them were made by Ners (a college coach looking for a new job throwing games, to start...that's smart, ADs love those guys as their next basketball coach).  But I have never heard anything as stupid as a college coach deciding to play a player he considers worse because he himself wasn't that great in college.  That is absolutely absurd.

I have now figured out the player that Ners was.  Beyond babysitting the 6th graders during MU's basketball camps while actual coaches and players coach them up, Ners was the 5'7" guard who chucked and ducked his way through freshman and sophomore basketball and then was the 13th man on the varsity team and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting more time.  The 6'2" starting point guard went on to a mid major school and Ners still believes that if he just wasn't unfairly sat on the bench he would be in the NBA right now.  His coach was throwing the season and in turn ruined his career.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 10, 2014, 06:07:21 PM
Dear Lord.  There have been some incredibly stupid arguments made on MUScoop before, and some of them were made by Ners (a college coach looking for a new job throwing games, to start...that's smart, ADs love those guys as their next basketball coach).  But I have never heard anything as stupid as a college coach deciding to play a player he considers worse because he himself wasn't that great in college.  That is absolutely absurd.

I have now figured out the player that Ners was.  Beyond babysitting the 6th graders during MU's basketball camps while actual coaches and players coach them up, Ners was the 5'7" guard who chucked and ducked his way through freshman and sophomore basketball and then was the 13th man on the varsity team and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting more time.  The 6'2" starting point guard went on to a mid major school and Ners still believes that if he just wasn't unfairly sat on the bench he would be in the NBA right now.  His coach was throwing the season and in turn ruined his career.

I mean if muggsy bogues could make it Ners could've to!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 10, 2014, 03:02:50 PM
Brand - I don't think anyone who thought Derrick gave us a better chance to win last year argued that Derrick was good - only that he was the better of two very poor options. Buzz agreed - he even tried Jamil and Mayo at the point. If that doesn't indicate desperation nothing does.

This. I will also say that as bad as Derrick was, he wasn't the reason for our record. He was a reason out of many.

Quote from: Benny B on November 10, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
I've said it once, I'll say it again:

Derrick and John are guys who are way above-average at making extremely difficult shots/plays, are way below-average at making the extremely easy shots/plays, and are about average at making the average-difficulty stuff. 

Derrick has proven to be way above-average at anything on the offensive side of basketball? Really? Please name the extremely difficult shots/plays Derrick has demonstrated an ability to make.

Quote from: MU82 on November 10, 2014, 07:47:32 PM
Derrick has proven to be way above-average at anything on the offensive side of basketball? Really? Please name the extremely difficult shots/plays Derrick has demonstrated an ability to make.

Just look at the shots he did make.  There isn't a bunny amongst them.

If I have to endure another year of threads like this, I might just shut the whole board down.

Quote from: Benny B on November 10, 2014, 08:08:00 PM
Just look at the shots he did make.  There isn't a bunny amongst them.

I laughed

Quote from: avid1010 on November 10, 2014, 07:36:25 AM
correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same. 

that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."...that's a far stretch from "you play to be your best in march."  if that's the case coaches would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as they would have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game/more difficult games/march. 

Again, that *isn't* what you were talking about earlier.  You were talking about giving time to players in preparation for *next* year.  Not giving players time early in the season so they can contribute later on in the same season.

Those are two different things completely.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2014, 08:35:13 PM
If I have to endure another year of threads like this, I might just shut the whole board down.

That would be tragic, as the entirety of the interwebs likely would follow suit, leaving the world in total darkness!

Quote from: MU82 on November 11, 2014, 10:56:26 AM
That would be tragic, as the entirety of the interwebs likely would follow suit, leaving the world in total darkness!

solves that net neutrality matter though

Quote from: wadesworld on November 10, 2014, 06:07:21 PM
Dear Lord.  There have been some incredibly stupid arguments made on MUScoop before, and some of them were made by Ners (a college coach looking for a new job throwing games, to start...that's smart, ADs love those guys as their next basketball coach).  But I have never heard anything as stupid as a college coach deciding to play a player he considers worse because he himself wasn't that great in college.  That is absolutely absurd.

I have now figured out the player that Ners was.  Beyond babysitting the 6th graders during MU's basketball camps while actual coaches and players coach them up, Ners was the 5'7" guard who chucked and ducked his way through freshman and sophomore basketball and then was the 13th man on the varsity team and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting more time.  The 6'2" starting point guard went on to a mid major school and Ners still believes that if he just wasn't unfairly sat on the bench he would be in the NBA right now.  His coach was throwing the season and in turn ruined his career.

Nice effort Wades.  Think you just offered up one of the most incredibly stupid posts in Scoop history.  But to clarify:

Your obviously active imagination led you astray in that:
1) I never said Wojo was playing Derrick because he feels he's worse.  I said that there are parallels that can be drawn from Wojo's own personal experience in college that mirror Derrick's to an extent - and that Wojo improved tremendously as a senior after being challenged by Coach K to improve after his junior season.  Derrick, like Wojo, is a hard worker, high character guy...and as a senior and the incumbent at the position, he'll be given the opportunity to start and prove he's improved to the point he doesn't hurt the team, but actually helps it win games (unlike last season) much like Wojo did his senior year.

2) Let me know if you'd ever like to meet so you can set yourself straight on my height and basketball ability. I'll be in MKE for the Villanova game.  I look forward to your PM and meeting you.  If you'd like to play 1 on 1, I'd gladly meet you at the Rec for a game - even though you are 13 years younger than me, I feel confident you'll get a slice of humble pie you, like many young punks, need.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
Nice effort Wades.  Think you just offered up one of the most incredibly stupid posts in Scoop history.  But to clarify:

Your obviously active imagination led you astray in that:
1) I never said Wojo was playing Derrick because he feels he's worse.  I said that there are parallels that can be drawn from Wojo's own personal experience in college that mirror Derrick's to an extent - and that Wojo improved tremendously as a senior after being challenged by Coach K to improve after his junior season.  Derrick, like Wojo, is a hard worker, high character guy...and as a senior and the incumbent at the position, he'll be given the opportunity to start and prove he's improved to the point he doesn't hurt the team, but actually helps it win games (unlike last season) much like Wojo did his senior year.

2) Let me know if you'd ever like to meet so you can set yourself straight on my height and basketball ability. I'll be in MKE for the Villanova game.  I look forward to your PM and meeting you.  If you'd like to play 1 on 1, I'd gladly meet you at the Rec for a game - even though you are 13 years younger than me, I feel confident you'll get a slice of humble pie you, like many young punks, need.

:o

Can't tell if this is fun or a tire fire. Either way in before the lock.

The old Ners challenging someone to 1:1.  Haven't seen that move in a while.

I just hope that either Derrick or Dawson comes out this season and is clearly better than the other one. I don't care which way it goes as long as it puts the matter to bed.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 11, 2014, 12:53:20 PM
I just hope that either Derrick or Dawson comes out this season and is clearly better than the other one. I don't care which way it goes as long as it puts the matter to bed.

Dawson will not be playing PG.  That's between Matt, Derrick and Duane.

Quote from: Nukem2 on November 11, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
Dawson will not be playing PG.  That's between Matt, Derrick and Duane.

This is what I've heard too. Wojo (like his predecessor) has determined that John D can't play the point at this level.

popcorn.gif

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
Nice effort Wades.  Think you just offered up one of the most incredibly stupid posts in Scoop history.  But to clarify:

Your obviously active imagination led you astray in that:
1) I never said Wojo was playing Derrick because he feels he's worse.  I said that there are parallels that can be drawn from Wojo's own personal experience in college that mirror Derrick's to an extent - and that Wojo improved tremendously as a senior after being challenged by Coach K to improve after his junior season.  Derrick, like Wojo, is a hard worker, high character guy...and as a senior and the incumbent at the position, he'll be given the opportunity to start and prove he's improved to the point he doesn't hurt the team, but actually helps it win games (unlike last season) much like Wojo did his senior year.

2) Let me know if you'd ever like to meet so you can set yourself straight on my height and basketball ability. I'll be in MKE for the Villanova game.  I look forward to your PM and meeting you.  If you'd like to play 1 on 1, I'd gladly meet you at the Rec for a game - even though you are 13 years younger than me, I feel confident you'll get a slice of humble pie you, like many young punks, need.

I think you guys will need a referee, if you play one on one. Let me know and I will bring a whistle.

Hey as annoying as Ners is I can still deal with the guy.  He might be me MUScoops version of the great1 or murf on the scout board in that he will argue tirelessly to try to convince everyone that he is correct.  He will argue to the point that he contradicts himself continuously and in most cases just comes out looking sillier and sillier the more he tries.  He is easily baited and will turn any string that mentions anything to do with MU into his soapbox opportunity to champion John Dawson and deride Derrick.  The horse has been beaten into a puddle of glue but he still pounds it like an obsession.  
However, as I said, I can deal with the guy,  As delusional and as obsessed as he is at least he is all in for MU basketball, while he may commandeer a thread at least it isnt a passive -aggressive anti MU agenda.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
Nice effort Wades.  Think you just offered up one of the most incredibly stupid posts in Scoop history.  But to clarify:

Your obviously active imagination led you astray in that:
1) I never said Wojo was playing Derrick because he feels he's worse.  I said that there are parallels that can be drawn from Wojo's own personal experience in college that mirror Derrick's to an extent - and that Wojo improved tremendously as a senior after being challenged by Coach K to improve after his junior season.  Derrick, like Wojo, is a hard worker, high character guy...and as a senior and the incumbent at the position, he'll be given the opportunity to start and prove he's improved to the point he doesn't hurt the team, but actually helps it win games (unlike last season) much like Wojo did his senior year.

Wouldn't it just be simpler to say that Wojo thinks Derrick is his best option at PG? (for now anyways).

No need for a narrative then.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 11, 2014, 02:24:05 PM
Wouldn't it just be simpler to say that Wojo thinks Derrick is his best option at PG? (for now anyways).

No need for a narrative then.

Works for me.

One aspect of the exhibition game I found interesting is the speed in which MU got into their secondary action, and then if nothing was there, into their offense. Obviously it will be tougher against better competition, but last year it took forever for them to get into things. Saturday, the players were moving and so was the ball. Hopefully that will cut down on the amount of times the offense stalls out when teams sag off of Derrick.

Quote from: MUfan12 on November 11, 2014, 02:35:41 PM
Works for me.

One aspect of the exhibition game I found interesting is the speed in which MU got into their secondary action, and then if nothing was there, into their offense. Obviously it will be tougher against better competition, but last year it took forever for them to get into things. Saturday, the players were moving and so was the ball. Hopefully that will cut down on the amount of times the offense stalls out when teams sag off of Derrick.

+1.  I said it elsewhere, when you don't have players who can create their own shots you need an efficient offense to create open looks for players and get the ball into good spots to score from.  That, not Derrick Wilson, was the problem last year.  Buzz didn't know how to coach an offense, he just let his athletes go to work.  When he didn't have the guards who could create their own opportunities and break down their defenders, he was lost, and as a result the team was lost too.  It is refreshing to see actual set plays run in the exhibition, and it was the first time I felt like we might be better this year than we were last year.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 11, 2014, 02:24:05 PM
Wouldn't it just be simpler to say that Wojo thinks Derrick is his best option at PG? (for now anyways).

No need for a narrative then.

This obviously is preferable. However ...

I do some coaching, too, albeit at a MUCH lower level. And I have had players who have reminded me of favorite players from past teams or of one of my kids or even of myself during my playing days. And I will say that I do look kindly at the familiar. That's just human nature.

As for actually choosing a starting PG based on that, or sticking with an inferior player who is not helping me win just because he reminds me of something from my past, I like to think Wojo will be above that once the season gets rolling.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 11, 2014, 02:24:05 PM
Wouldn't it just be simpler to say that Wojo thinks Derrick is his best option at PG? (for now anyways).

No need for a narrative then.

But the entire house of cards Ners has built up for the past year comes crashing down without the narrative.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:00:56 PM

But the entire house of cards Ners has built up for the past year comes crashing down without the narrative.

There's no house of cards on my end...only one built last season was the one built by you and the 5 others who die hard supported Buzz and what was the worst coaching performance turned in by an MU coach in a LONG time.

If John Dawson is SO bad as a PG that it would have resulted in us playing 3.5 on 5 last year...I'd concede.  Yet, I know that a guy who can make shots, and needs to be defended everywhere, and is a threat to shoot and score from the perimeter, though perhaps more turnover prone - isn't creating a 1-man deficit everytime down the floor.

The house of cards Buzz and those of you who stood by him built last season was to think he could coach us to victories while conceding and acknowledging he chose to play 4 on 5. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:10:26 PM
There's no house of cards on my end...only one built last season was the one built by you and the 5 others who die hard supported Buzz and what was the worst coaching performance turned in by an MU coach in a LONG time.

If John Dawson is SO bad as a PG that it would have resulted in us playing 3.5 on 5 last year...I'd concede.  Yet, I know that a guy who can make shots, and needs to be defended everywhere, and is a threat to shoot and score from the perimeter, though perhaps more turnover prone - isn't creating a 1-man deficit everytime down the floor.

The house of cards Buzz and those of you who stood by him built last season was to think he could coach us to victories while conceding and acknowledging he chose to play 4 on 5.  

Simple yes or no answer will suffice: If Derrick plays over say 20 minutes per game and Dawson plays less (you even admit he has an advantage because he can play more than just the point guard position) is Wojo coming in and intentionally throwing the season in season one?

Simple yes or no answer will also suffice: In that exact same scenario, does your high school basketball playing experience then qualify you more than Coach Wojo, a guy who was a top recruit in the nation out of high school, played at Duke, played professionally overseas for a year, and is getting paid millions of dollars to make these decisions, and who also has multiple assistants who played high level college and professional basketball next to him giving him their input?

Can't wait to see the excuses this year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:10:26 PM
There's no house of cards on my end...only one built last season was the one built by you and the 5 others who die hard supported Buzz and what was the worst coaching performance turned in by an MU coach in a LONG time.

If John Dawson is SO bad as a PG that it would have resulted in us playing 3.5 on 5 last year...I'd concede.  Yet, I know that a guy who can make shots, and needs to be defended everywhere, and is a threat to shoot and score from the perimeter, though perhaps more turnover prone - isn't creating a 1-man deficit everytime down the floor.

The house of cards Buzz and those of you who stood by him built last season was to think he could coach us to victories while conceding and acknowledging he chose to play 4 on 5. 

Uh....no.

If Derrick plays more minutes than Dawson without significant improvement, you will then have a second coach that has done so.  You have already given excuses for Buzz making the decision he did (to screw with the administration), and now you are laying the groundwork for Wojo (he was a senior who worked hard too.)

You won't admit that Derrick might actually be better.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 11, 2014, 02:45:16 PM
+1.  I said it elsewhere, when you don't have players who can create their own shots you need an efficient offense to create open looks for players and get the ball into good spots to score from.  That, not Derrick Wilson, was the problem last year.  Buzz didn't know how to coach an offense, he just let his athletes go to work.  When he didn't have the guards who could create their own opportunities and break down their defenders, he was lost, and as a result the team was lost too.  It is refreshing to see actual set plays run in the exhibition, and it was the first time I felt like we might be better this year than we were last year.

You are never going to have an efficient offense when one of your guards doesn't need to be defended within 5 feet on the perimeter.  How are you going to create good looks for others when the opposition essentially has a "rover" defender?  I mean do you actually believe this stuff you write?  You say Derrick Wilson wasn't the problem last year...yet say that Buzz was a good coach when he had guys who could break people down off the dribble?  So, how was Derrick not a problem last year when he was a guy who couldn't break anyone down off the dribble, and due to all of his offensive limitations allowed the opposition to have a rover defender to stifle any "efficient offense" strategy you speak of.

Let's hear what offensive system you would have employed last season that would have worked?

And btw...Buzz knew how to coach offense - his 5 prior teams were all Top 50 nationally in O-Rating.  The one outlier??  Last season....and we were in the bottom tier of all schools in O-Rating.  No coach could or would expect to win with what Buzz rolled out there last year.  Combine that with all the goofy substitutions at all the other positions, and now you don't even create any team defensive efficiency...but instead create total chaos on the team defensively.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
2) Let me know if you'd ever like to meet so you can set yourself straight on my height and basketball ability. I'll be in MKE for the Villanova game.  I look forward to your PM and meeting you.  If you'd like to play 1 on 1, I'd gladly meet you at the Rec for a game - even though you are 13 years younger than me, I feel confident you'll get a slice of humble pie you, like many young punks, need.

Awww, jeeeez, not this sh1t again.

Lock it

Quote from: wadesworld on November 11, 2014, 03:17:56 PM
Simple yes or no answer will suffice: If Derrick plays over say 20 minutes per game and Dawson plays less (you even admit he has an advantage because he can play more than just the point guard position) is Wojo coming in and intentionally throwing the season in season one?

Simple yes or no answer will also suffice: In that exact same scenario, does your high school basketball playing experience then qualify you more than Coach Wojo, a guy who was a top recruit in the nation out of high school, played at Duke, played professionally overseas for a year, and is getting paid millions of dollars to make these decisions, and who also has multiple assistants who played high level college and professional basketball next to him giving him their input?

Can't wait to see the excuses this year.

For the LAST time:  Derrick Wilson will NOT play more than 20 minutes per game by mid January if up to that point we see a repeat performance of last season.  He's worked hard to improve.  He's a good kid.  He's the incumbent.  He's a senior.  He'll be given the chance to show his hard work paid off.  But, if we start seeing teams defending him once again as they did last year...I guarn-god-dang-tee you Wojo won't be playing him 20+, much less 33 minutes a game...or 47 minutes like what we saw from Buzz in the OT games at end of last season.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:33:19 PM
For the LAST time:  Derrick Wilson will NOT play more than 20 minutes per game by mid January if up to that point we see a repeat performance of last season.  He's worked hard to improve.  He's a good kid.  He's the incumbent.  He's a senior.  He'll be given the chance to show his hard work paid off.  But, if we start seeing teams defending him once again as they did last year...I guarn-god-dang-tee you Wojo won't be playing him 20+, much less 33 minutes a game...or 47 minutes like what we saw from Buzz in the OT games at end of last season.

Agreed.

Derrick is the best option (for now).

If Derrick plays poorly, Wojo will try to get some performance out of another PG (exact player TBD).

(No need for all of the proclamations and narratives, it just muddies the water)

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:23:42 PM

Uh....no.

If Derrick plays more minutes than Dawson without significant improvement, you will then have a second coach that has done so.  You have already given excuses for Buzz making the decision he did (to screw with the administration), and now you are laying the groundwork for Wojo (he was a senior who worked hard too.)

You won't admit that Derrick might actually be better.

Exactly.  And I never will.  As for what Buzz did last season generally MOST coaches will make an adjustment if they see game after game after game their starter isn't getting the job done - and the losses racking up - and when the starter is not just not getting it done...but being totally and completely disrespected by the opposition.  The saying goes:  If it aint broke, don't fix it.  To clearly see it is broke, and do nothing to try to fix it was ridiculous - and rolling Jamil to PG for a few possessions in a few games isn't exactly taking measures to fix it.  You have to go all in on the change.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:38:41 PM
Exactly.  And I never will. 

Clearly.

But just understand that one, successful college coach disagrees with you.  And a second one very well might this year.

You can't blame me and the "five other diehards" for siding with the successful coach rather than the anonymous message board guy who challenges people to 1-on-1 games.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:41:45 PM

Clearly.

But just understand that one, successful college coach disagrees with you.  And a second one very well might this year.

You can't blame me and the "five other diehards" for siding with the successful coach rather than the anonymous message board guy who challenges people to 1-on-1 games.

And how successful was that college coach last season?  Did you not recall me and others here saying early on the season was going to be a disaster if he didn't make a change?  It was plain as day.  As Buzz would say:  You get what you earn.  Buzz's coaching last year got us exactly what we earned:  A turd of a season, missing the NIT, after being picked to win The Big East...and in a watered down Big East at that.   :o

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:44:31 PM
And how successful was that college coach last season?  Did you not recall me and others here saying early on the season was going to be a disaster if he didn't make a change?  It was plain as day.  As Buzz would say:  You get what you earn.  Buzz's coaching last year got us exactly what we earned:  A turd of a season, missing the NIT, after being picked to win The Big East...and in a watered down Big East at that.   :o

Right.  It was his fault there was no better alternative after Duane got hurt.  Too many transfers.  Too many  recruiting misses. 

Just what I (and others) have said all along. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:46:59 PM

Right.  It was his fault there was no better alternative after Duane got hurt.  Too many transfers.  Too many  recruiting misses. 

Just what I (and others) have said all along. 

So who's responsible for recruiting and transfers?  And really...no better alternative after Duane got hurt?  Why in God's name would you think he'd have played a 160lbs freshman Duane Wilson....when Deonte Burton, could only get 12 minutes a game....and he too was playing behind a highly ineffective upperclassmen?  Why after he gave Dawson exactly 1 legitimate run, and Dawson played well, and we WON the game, would he NEVER have given him another chance to play 30??

Too many excuses being made by you and the select others in defense of Buzz last season.  As you know, I loved the guy years 1 through 5, but it was plain as day to see that all was not right with him last year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:52:25 PM
So who's responsible for recruiting and transfers? 

As I have said all along and inferred up above, the biggest problem with the point guard position last year was Buzz the general manager...not Buzz the coach.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:52:25 PMWhy in God's name would you think he'd have played a 160lbs freshman Duane Wilson....when Deonte Burton, could only get 12 minutes a game....and he too was playing behind a highly ineffective upperclassmen? 

Well who knows.  We are dealing in hypotheticals.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:52:25 PM
Why after he gave Dawson exactly 1 legitimate run, and Dawson played well, and we WON the game, would he NEVER have given him another chance to play 30??

Is it really that hard?  He thought Derrick was better.  Wojo might come to the same conclusion.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:56:54 PM
As I have said all along and inferred up above, the biggest problem with the point guard position last year was Buzz the general manager...not Buzz the coach.


Well who knows.  We are dealing in hypotheticals.


Is it really that hard?  He thought Derrick was better.  Wojo might come to the same conclusion.

Buzz is both the GM and coach so both fall at his feet.  He couldn't control Duane's injury of course, and that would have given him the option to play him.  Yet, Buzz showed he'd barely play an All Big East freshman sitting behind an unproductive upperclassmen.  Buzz buried a 4.5 star freshman recruit behind a largely unproductive walk on.  I don't think it's a reach in the hypothetical if Duane were healthy to think Buzz would have given him 20+ minutes given all the other evidence that suggests otherwise.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 03:56:54 PM
As I have said all along and inferred up above, the biggest problem with the point guard position last year was Buzz the general manager...not Buzz the coach.


Well who knows.  We are dealing in hypotheticals.


Is it really that hard?  He thought Derrick was better.  Wojo might come to the same conclusion.

Sultan: Let me clear all your smoke, mirrors, subterfuge and slurping about Buzz for you and all others;
Buzz was a phony stubborn cowboy who used his downhome phoniness to fool you and others. Buzz wrecked last season because he was a bonehead, and was shown the door for that. Everything else is all BS and opium dreams by you.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
Sultan: Let me clear all your smoke, mirrors, subterfuge and slurping about Buzz for you and all others;
Buzz was a phony stubborn cowboy who used his downhome phoniness to fool you and others. Buzz wrecked last season because he was a bonehead, and was shown the door for that. Everything else is all BS and opium dreams by you.

All you needed was "hate woody" and you would have hit every single one of your lines! Bravo sir!

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 11, 2014, 04:49:59 PM
All you needed was "hate woody" and you would have hit every single one of your lines! Bravo sir!

Thank you for reminding me: Sultan has a love woody for all things Buzz.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 11, 2014, 03:52:25 PM
So who's responsible for recruiting and transfers?  And really...no better alternative after Duane got hurt?  Why in God's name would you think he'd have played a 160lbs freshman Duane Wilson....when Deonte Burton, could only get 12 minutes a game....and he too was playing behind a highly ineffective upperclassmen?  Why after he gave Dawson exactly 1 legitimate run, and Dawson played well, and we WON the game, would he NEVER have given him another chance to play 30??

Too many excuses being made by you and the select others in defense of Buzz last season.  As you know, I loved the guy years 1 through 5, but it was plain as day to see that all was not right with him last year.

As you pointed out in the Wisconsin Lutheran threads many times, the WL game is too small of asample size to judge any players performance, including Dawson. So why is the Georgetown game enough of asample size to judge anything?

Ners is right. Bert threw last season intentionally. All the college coaches who are looking a new job are doing it. It's a resume booster. Bert was hoping to go 0-32 because then he would be coaching at Kentucky and not Virginia Tech.

AKA Ners doesn't know the first thing about basketball.

Not sure why I ever took him off of ignore. Lesson learned.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
Sultan: Let me clear all your smoke, mirrors, subterfuge and slurping about Buzz for you and all others;
Buzz was a phony stubborn cowboy who used his downhome phoniness to fool you and others. Buzz wrecked last season because he was a bonehead, and was shown the door for that. Everything else is all BS and opium dreams by you.

So all the good that happened in year 1-5 was an opium dream by us all? Woah trippy.  Seriously though you're the only poster where I think you'd actually be happier if but didn't bring us 5ncaa appearances not to mention the 2 sweet 16s elite 8 and BE championship instead flopping and getting fired. Never once have I seen a post by you happy for those.

Happiness?  Hell I'm looking forward to the day willie comes up with a single, coherent thought other than a soundbite.

I left the board for the summer.  Anyone want to catch me up?

Quote from: connie on November 11, 2014, 06:38:54 PM
I left the board for the summer.  Anyone want to catch me up?

Ners rode the pine on a varsity basketball team in high school and thus is more qualified and knows much more about basketball than Buzz Williams and Steve Wojciechowski.  That is all.

Buzz was trying to get out of MU from the day he started!!!  The first 5 years he thought winning conference titles, elite 8s, sweet 16s , etc. wouldget him a better job, yet he couldnt find another job.  It was only in year 6 that he realized that if he actually tried to lose he could get another gig and it worked.  Perfectly logical now

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 11, 2014, 06:05:39 PM
Happiness?  Hell I'm looking forward to the day willie comes up with a single, coherent thought other than a soundbite.

As compared to the Sultan's thoughts which are willie nilly. And his last comment was indeed a sound bite.

Quote from: The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid on November 11, 2014, 04:49:59 PM
All you needed was "hate woody" and you would have hit every single one of your lines! Bravo sir!

Oooh ... oooh ... oooh!

I was the first one ever decorated with the "hate woody" line!

Quote from: River rat on November 11, 2014, 06:46:06 PM
Buzz was trying to get out of MU from the day he started!!!  The first 5 years he thought winning conference titles, elite 8s, sweet 16s , etc. wouldget him a better job, yet he couldnt find another job.  It was only in year 6 that he realized that if he actually tried to lose he could get another gig and it worked.  Perfectly logical now

Good call.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 11, 2014, 05:42:38 PM
So all the good that happened in year 1-5 was an opium dream by us all? Woah trippy.  Seriously though you're the only poster where I think you'd actually be happier if but didn't bring us 5ncaa appearances not to mention the 2 sweet 16s elite 8 and BE championship instead flopping and getting fired. Never once have I seen a post by you happy for those.

Reading is fundamental, BagBoxer! I was talking about Buzz last year. If you want to throw in prior seasons to excuse has idiocy from last year, go for it! And he was shown the door, so I guess the ones that showed him the door were not too enthralled with Buzz either.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
Reading is fundamental, BagBoxer! I was talking about Buzz last year. If you want to throw in prior seasons to excuse has idiocy from last year, go for it! And he was shown the door, so I guess the ones that showed him the door were not too enthralled with Buzz either.

So only last year he was a phony cowboy who fooled all of us but before that he was genuine? You see I've commented on your attitude toward buzz last year before the season because you had a tremendous amount of animosity toward him even then.  This is why I figured I'd throw my comment out there that you're possibly the only fan Ive seen who I could actually see being unhappy that buzz lead us to great success 5 seasons. 

In before the lock

I hope this thread is not predictive of the upcoming season on scoop.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
Reading is fundamental, BagBoxer! I was talking about Buzz last year. If you want to throw in prior seasons to excuse has idiocy from last year, go for it! And he was shown the door, so I guess the ones that showed him the door were not too enthralled with Buzz either.

How many people need to tell you he was not shown the door before you stop saying he was shown the door?  Letting someone leave != shown the door.

Quote from: real chili 83 on November 11, 2014, 07:59:18 PM
In before the lock

I hope this thread is not predictive of the upcoming season on scoop.

Amen brother

Maybe we can just agree that Derrick is the best option at PG (for now), and then just forget this topic for a while?

If Derrick plays well, he'll get a good amount of minutes. If Derrick plays poorly, Wojo will look for another solution.

Keep it simple, bros.

Peace.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 11, 2014, 05:22:39 PM
Ners is right. Bert threw last season intentionally. All the college coaches who are looking a new job are doing it. It's a resume booster. Bert was hoping to go 0-32 because then he would be coaching at Kentucky and not Virginia Tech.

AKA Ners doesn't know the first thing about basketball.

Not sure why I ever took him off of ignore. Lesson learned.

Buzz had enough skins on the wall that one bad season wasn't going to kill his chances of getting a gig.  What is bizarre is that he jumped ship after last season after having passed on other much better jobs than VaTech.  Then again in past seasons MU had always sweetened the pot for Buzz - last season - not so much.....it was good riddance on the part of Cords and Wild.  And for that I applaud them.  Takes balls to say enough is enough, and part ways with an employee who produced very good results.  But when that employee becomes such a diva that he won't even flush his own turd down the toilet - yea - time to move on.  (Not to mention turning in an atrocious coaching performance.)

And btw - The cheesiest thing on this board is posters making reference of using/"threatening" to use the ignore function.  That along with making grand mention of no longer posting here.  

If your skin is so thin that you can't "handle" reading dissenting opinions as an adult, that speaks volumes.  Nonetheless, I had a hard time falling asleep last night knowing Wadesworld has put me on ignore.  It is still troubling me today, and I'm sure it will for some time.  Yet thank you Wades for making me and the rest of the board aware that I am now on your ignore list.  I still will look forward to reading your opinions on MU basketball, albeit most of them exhibit little knowledge of the game.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 12, 2014, 10:18:24 AM
Buzz had enough skins on the wall that one bad season wasn't going to kill his chances of getting a gig.  What is bizarre is that he jumped ship after last season after having passed on other much better jobs than VaTech.  Then again in past seasons MU had always sweetened the pot for Buzz - last season - not so much.....it was good riddance on the part of Cords and Wild.  And for that I applaud them.  Takes balls to say enough is enough, and part ways with an employee who produced very good results.  But when that employee becomes such a diva that he won't even flush his own turd down the toilet - yea - time to move on.  (Not to mention turning in an atrocious coaching performance.)

And btw - The cheesiest thing on this board is posters making reference of using/"threatening" to use the ignore function.  That along with making grand mention of no longer posting here.  

If your skin is so thin that you can't "handle" reading dissenting opinions as an adult, that speaks volumes.  Nonetheless, I had a hard time falling asleep last night knowing Wadesworld has put me on ignore.  It is still troubling me today, and I'm sure it will for some time.  Yet thank you Wades for making me and the rest of the board aware that I am now on your ignore list.  I still will look forward to reading your opinions on MU basketball, albeit most of them exhibit little knowledge of the game.

Slight disagreement with you Ners. It only takes balls to not give in to a headstrong Coach's belief that he is the program after getting rid of the AD and always upping his own juice, because you may feel the wrath of Sultan Slurp. Buzz was given the rope to hang himself, which he did. He saw the handwriting on the door, which Cords delicately pointed out to him, so he took the gig that was available--hence "He was shown the door". Players were about to bolt under Buzz; Wilson, Taylor, JJJ and possibly others. I submit that had that happened, a whole lot more force would have blown El Buzzo out the door. It certainly appears that Cords masterfully arranged this to find somebody like Wojo/Shaka Kahn.
Before the deniers get their shorts bundled, remember this is an MU basketball Board, where speculation runs rampant.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 12, 2014, 09:21:51 AM
Maybe we can just agree that Derrick is the best option at PG (for now), and then just forget this topic for a while?

If Derrick plays well, he'll get a good amount of minutes. If Derrick plays poorly, Wojo will look for another solution.

Keep it simple, bros.

Peace.

I, too, am tired of the debate, but if I happen to disagree with your premise, why should I agree?

I like to think there is a better option at PG than one of the worst PGs in the entire country. Maybe there isn't, but we don't really know, do we?

I am happy to let it play out and to see what Wojo ultimately decides. If the decision is that Derrick really is the best option, it means we will struggle to be even a .500 team. I'm not ready to concede that yet, though!

Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
I, too, am tired of the debate, but if I happen to disagree with your premise, why should I agree?

I like to think there is a better option at PG than one of the worst PGs in the entire country. Maybe there isn't, but we don't really know, do we?

I am happy to let it play out and to see what Wojo ultimately decides. If the decision is that Derrick really is the best option, it means we will struggle to be even a .500 team. I'm not ready to concede that yet, though!

Well, at the risk of opening a sh!tty debate, who is a better option right now?

I think there are some guys with upside, but, right now. Today. In November. Derrick is likely the best option.

In March, we might see something different.

That's all I'm getting at. Wojo is likely starting Derrick because it's his best option. No narrative. No bold proclamations. No predictions. Just a little bit of logic.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 12, 2014, 12:35:27 PM
Well, at the risk of opening a sh!tty debate, who is a better option right now?

I think there are some guys with upside, but, right now. Today. In November. Derrick is likely the best option.

In March, we might see something different.

That's all I'm getting at. Wojo is likely starting Derrick because it's his best option. No narrative. No bold proclamations. No predictions. Just a little bit of logic.

If Wojo chooses Derrick -- and it appears he has -- then our new coach has come to the same conclusion our old coach did. Which makes your point more than fair.

I still cling to the belief -- the hope? -- that there simply must be somebody better on the roster. But I allow for the possibility that I am wrong!

I will be interested in seeing Wojo's thinking on the subject come Dec. 31, when we open our conference season in Chicago.

Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
If Wojo chooses Derrick -- and it appears he has -- then our new coach has come to the same conclusion our old coach did. Which makes your point more than fair.

I still cling to the belief -- the hope? -- that there simply must be somebody better on the roster. But I allow for the possibility that I am wrong!

I will be interested in seeing Wojo's thinking on the subject come Dec. 31, when we open our conference season in Chicago.

I would call it hope. We have no proof that (insert player) is better than Derrick.

I fully acknowledge that there is/are players on the roster with more upside than Derrick, but that's not the point.

The point I'm making is, Derrick is likely starting because he is the best option right now. Today.

We don't need to go into some sort of narrative with a whole bunch of qualifiers.

Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
If Wojo chooses Derrick -- and it appears he has -- then our new coach has come to the same conclusion our old coach did. Which makes your point more than fair.

I still cling to the belief -- the hope? -- that there simply must be somebody better on the roster. But I allow for the possibility that I am wrong!

I will be interested in seeing Wojo's thinking on the subject come Dec. 31, when we open our conference season in Chicago.

This.  That will be where the rubber meets the road.  I anticipate all of the guys will get roughy 20 per game in non-con, particularly against the cupcakes.  Might get a slight indication after Ohio State game too - to see who Wojo has most belief in.  Obviously Derrick's only option for a position is PG, and he has a lot of experience there which gives a coach some security.  I suspect Derrick will be given every chance to show he's worthy of continuing to be the starter, and play a lot of minutes due to his experience and incumbent status.

That however does not necessarily mean at this moment he is the best option on the team.  What it means is he's the most KNOWN option on the team.

Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
If Wojo chooses Derrick -- and it appears he has -- then our new coach has come to the same conclusion our old coach did. Which makes your point more than fair.

I still cling to the belief -- the hope? -- that there simply must be somebody better on the roster. But I allow for the possibility that I am wrong!

I also cling to the hope that there's a better point guard than Derrick on our roster - but I don't for a minute think it's John Dawson.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 12, 2014, 01:19:52 PM
I also cling to the hope that there's a better point guard than Derrick on our roster - but I don't for a minute think it's John Dawson.

Alas, neither do I.

Then again, neither of us KNOW that to be the case this very moment. As I said, the non-con will help sort it all out. 6-7 weeks from now, we'll know exactly what direction Wojo is going with PG.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 10, 2014, 01:58:33 PM
Look, a new coach, that himself wasn't a high scoring PG, who had struggled as a junior in his own career, and was told by Coach K...he'd likely be sitting on the bench if he didn't improve significantly as a senior (which Wojo did do..jury still out on Derrick), isn't going to come into a program, and immediately demote the incumbent, high character, hard working, senior, at the ONLY position he could potentially play - PG.

I need to walk something back.    I completely agree with this.   Just not the tone.    I actually said something similar after Wojo was hired.   Derrick is very similar to what Wojo was at Duke.    I was just watching a little of the 98 Duke UNC game.   First 4 minutes, on offense, Wojo never went inside the 3 pt line.   Not with the dribble, not after passing.   He never looked to shoot.   He brought the ball up and moved it.   Of course, he had shooters, scorers, and guys who could create their own shot on the floor with him.   Defensively, he stayed in front of Cota and doubled the post and then recovered.   He was Derrick Wilson before it was cool.   Of course he is going to have a kinship with Derrick.   
But none of that means that Derrick ISN'T the best option for this team to start at the point right now.   Or that he WASN'T the best option available on last year's team.    And IF, at some juncture during the season Wojo decides that playing someone else at the point give this year's team the best chance to win, I expect him to make the tough choice that a head coach has to make.