Point Guard

[Texas Western]

You asked how people could prefer Derrick over Dawson despite the disparity in sample sizes, I gave you an answer. And by sample size, I'm not talking about just the WLC game, I'm talking about all of last season. I agree that Dawson should have gotten more time last season, but after looking at Derrick's large sample size and Dawson's small sample size, I preferred Derrick. Not because he was good, but because Dawson wasn't better (IMHO). Maybe if Dawson got more run (which I was hoping for) maybe he would have shown us more and my opinion would have changed. Maybe he will get more run this season and he will show me something to change my mind. I agree that I don't think we can make any true judgments about this team until much later in the season.

John will get ample opportunity in the non conference season to show us what he can go. I am reserving my view on him till then .In the meantime rooting hard for him to show us something positive as you point out. 

[NersEllenson]

Honest differences of opinion are part of what makes the world go around. We get it. You think that Derrick is as bad as bad can get. And we get it that you think you are more qualified to come to that conclusion than we are to come to a different one. But as you laugh at us and ridicule us and say we're not worthy to differ with your opinion please remember that our conclusion (that Derrick, while SEVERELY LIMITED as a point guard, is a better option than Dawson at that position) is the same one that two coaches (after months of daily observation) came to. I won't be a total dick and say that these guys have forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know (although that's true). And I won't further conclude that because they are infinitely more qualified to judge who should or shouldn't play (although that's true, too) that your opinion is worthless. Because it's an OPINION, and there's always a chance that your less informed opinion than theirs might be right. But PLEASE, PLEASE, stop with the crap that you're the expert and we're not worthy to disagree. The real experts are on our side of the argument.

Look, a new coach, that himself wasn't a high scoring PG, who had struggled as a junior in his own career, and was told by Coach K...he'd likely be sitting on the bench if he didn't improve significantly as a senior (which Wojo did do..jury still out on Derrick), isn't going to come into a program, and immediately demote the incumbent, high character, hard working, senior, at the ONLY position he could potentially play - PG.

I wouldn't get too excited over drawing conclusions from 1 game against WLC, as to how this whole season is going to play out.  But if you want to draw conclusions from WLC, what grade would you apply to DeWilson's game?  I know 3 of 4 FT shooting is something to be ECSTATIC over from Derrick...given how incredibly low Derrick's bar has been set based on past performance.

Buzz, the "expert" of last season truly showed brilliant coaching chops.  Predicted to win Big East, more returning experience than ever before in his tenure and we missed the freaking NIT.  He jacked around with the roster at ALL positions other than the two most evident weak links on the team.  Brilliant Buzz!!!  Buzz bailed at the end of the season, was basically out the door as of January, and clearly had no interest in developing his freshman.  Alienated JJJ, Steve, Jamil and Devante as well.  Lost that whole team last year due to his expert analysis/coaching. 

I've never annointed myself as an expert, simply stated what my experience and exposure to the game has been...yet find myself in debates with wrestler's here on occasion who now basically say, "the real experts are on our side of the argument."

But since you are so confident in Derrick, will you please let us all know what your expectations are for him this season on minutes per game, ppg, FT shooting percentage, 3PT FG percentage?  Would be nice to get a baseline as to what you are expecting.  Let's hear it.

[Lennys Tap]

I've never annointed myself as an expert, simply stated what my experience and exposure to the game has been...yet find myself in debates with wrestler's here on occasion who now basically say, "the real experts are on our side of the argument."

So to summarize: Wojo, Buzz and I think Derrick Wilson is a better choice at point guard than John Dawson. You disagree, and feel my opinion is worthless next to yours because you played basketball in high school. But you don't think your opinion is worthless next to Buzz's and Wojo's, who make millions coaching the sport. Maybe the most egotistical, self important and presumptuous (not to mention illogical) post in Scoop history.

[Lennys Tap]

Look, a new coach, that himself wasn't a high scoring PG, who had struggled as a junior in his own career, and was told by Coach K...he'd likely be sitting on the bench if he didn't improve significantly as a senior (which Wojo did do..jury still out on Derrick), isn't going to come into a program, and immediately demote the incumbent, high character, hard working, senior, at the ONLY position he could potentially play - PG.

This is all total BS. Wojo will favor Derrick because he wasn't a good shooter? Or because he himself struggled as a junior? Wojo wouldn't be IMMEDIATELY demoting Derrick and promoting Dawson - he's been here for 7 months. And in that 7 months what has he determined? From what we hear it's not just that Dawson isn't good enough to beat out Derrick at the point - he's not good enough to play it period.

[tower912]

Adding Wojo's college career to your Derrick/Dawson conspiracy theories is pretty much jumping the shark.   Again.   For the nth time. 

[brandx]

So to summarize: Wojo, Buzz and I think Derrick Wilson is a better choice at point guard than John Dawson. You disagree, and feel my opinion is worthless next to yours because you played basketball in high school. But you don't think your opinion is worthless next to Buzz's and Wojo's, who make millions coaching the sport. Maybe the most egotistical, self important and presumptuous (not to mention illogical) post in Scoop history.

I said when Dawson came in that he would probably contribute next to nothing until his junior year and would be a productive role player his last two years. I still stand by that.

But it is probably the semantics between Derrick being the better option and Derrick being a good option that causes the problem. Last year, Derrick was probably the better option, but he was still a bad option.

I think a lot of the problem was that with a bad PG, any change seems like it would be better. We know John would have scored more than Derrick given the same minutes. We don't know how much John's negatives would have negated the increase in scoring from the position.

[Lennys Tap]

But since you are so confident in Derrick, will you please let us all know what your expectations are for him this season on minutes per game, ppg, FT shooting percentage, 3PT FG percentage?  Would be nice to get a baseline as to what you are expecting.  Let's hear it.

Here's what I'm confident of:

1. Derrick will still be a lousy shooter.
2. Derrick will play more minutes at the point than John D, and it won't be because the coach is throwing games, or because he's the incumbent, or because the coach likes him better.
3. You're going to owe this dumb baseball player/wrestler $500

What are you confident of?

[Lennys Tap]

I said when Dawson came in that he would probably contribute next to nothing until his junior year and would be a productive role player his last two years. I still stand by that.

But it is probably the semantics between Derrick being the better option and Derrick being a good option that causes the problem. Last year, Derrick was probably the better option, but he was still a bad option.

I think a lot of the problem was that with a bad PG, any change seems like it would be better. We know John would have scored more than Derrick given the same minutes. We don't know how much John's negatives would have negated the increase in scoring from the position.

Brand - I don't think anyone who thought Derrick gave us a better chance to win last year argued that Derrick was good - only that he was the better of two very poor options. Buzz agreed - he even tried Jamil and Mayo at the point. If that doesn't indicate desperation nothing does.

[NersEllenson]

This is all total BS. Wojo will favor Derrick because he wasn't a good shooter? Or because he himself struggled as a junior? Wojo wouldn't be IMMEDIATELY demoting Derrick and promoting Dawson - he's been here for 7 months. And in that 7 months what has he determined? From what we hear it's not just that Dawson isn't good enough to beat out Derrick at the point - he's not good enough to play it period.

I'm saying you aren't going to demote the incumbent, senior, high character kid immediately..particularly when you, yourself, where a struggling, defensive minded point guard yourself as a collegiate player - who then went on to show solid improvement as a senior, after being challenged by Coach K.  What part of that can't you understand??

I guarantee you, if we see a carbon copy of what we saw last year, with teams sagging 5 feet off of Derrick in the half court..and continued 43% FT shooting, Wojo is NOT going to continue to play Derrick Wilson even close to 20 minutes, much less 30 that Buzz played him last year.  Of course this season he has Carlino, Duane and Dawson (if he wants) to choose to play alternatively.  Of course Buzz could have chosen to play Dawson 20 a game last year, even if he didn't feel he was a good option at the position...because in reality, it could not have gotten any worse than having a player be totally and completely disrespected and not guarded in the half court.  Somehow I doubt Dawson's deficiencies would have rendered last year's team playing every offensive possession 3 on 5, versus the 4 on 5 Derrick "brought to the table."

[NersEllenson]

Here's what I'm confident of:

1. Derrick will still be a lousy shooter.
2. Derrick will play more minutes at the point than John D, and it won't be because the coach is throwing games, or because he's the incumbent, or because the coach likes him better.
3. You're going to owe this dumb baseball player/wrestler $500

What are you confident of?

It doesn't matter who will play more minutes at the point...our bet was made on total minutes played.  I took John because I felt he at least can play two positions if needed.  Derrick?  It's PG or bust..as we all know he aint gonna be playing any shooting guard.

I'm confident Dawson will shoot higher percentages in all categories than will Derrick.  That's what I'm confident of.  

And btw Lenny, we both know you aren't dumb per se...you are just a baseball player and wrestler discussing basketball.

[bilsu]

It doesn't matter who will play more minutes at the point...our bet was made on total minutes played.  I took John because I felt he at least can play two positions if needed.  Derrick?  It's PG or bust..as we all know he aint gonna be playing any shooting guard.

I'm confident Dawson will shoot higher percentages in all categories than will Derrick.  That's what I'm confident of.  

And btw Lenny, we both know you aren't dumb per se...you are just a baseball player and wrestler discussing basketball.

The trouble with this is Wojo has said the team will not have a designated point guard, so Derrick in the same game will be playing at different times the point, the shooting guard and the three. It all depends on who has the ball in their hands. The guard with the ball will be the point guard at that time only.

[NersEllenson]

The trouble with this is Wojo has said the team will not have a designated point guard, so Derrick in the same game will be playing at different times the point, the shooting guard and the three. It all depends on who has the ball in their hands. The guard with the ball will be the point guard at that time only.

And I'm betting by mid-season Wojo will come to the conclusion that Derrick is not one of the 3 most worthy guards to be getting PT...

[tower912]

I'm of two minds as to how the PG PT plays out.  Prior to his injury, I had assumed that Duane would eventually be the PG on last year's team.   Derrick was about what I expected him to be, as was Dawson.    This year, with the pressure defense to attempt to keep the ball from easily reaching the paint, I can plausibly see Derrick nearly reprising his 30.8 minutes per game, perhaps in the 28 range, with Duane and Carlino splitting the other 12 minutes.   I can also see, if he continues to develop rapidly, Cohen cutting into Dawson's minutes, as Wojo has the opportunity to play 3 forwards up front (until Luke develops) or 2 forwards and JJJ.     There are only 9 guys right now and 10 in a month (assuming everyone stays healthy) so everyone is going to get their chance to play.   But it isn't difficult for me to formulate a scenario where Dawson and Cohen end up 9-10 in minutes played.    Conversely, if everything goes south, I can see Wojo gradually ramping up Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Cohen's minutes at the expense of Derrick, Juan, and Carlino.  Still too many unknowns for me.

[NersEllenson]

I'm of two minds as to how the PG PT plays out.  Prior to his injury, I had assumed that Duane would eventually be the PG on last year's team.   Derrick was about what I expected him to be, as was Dawson.    This year, with the pressure defense to attempt to keep the ball from easily reaching the paint, I can plausibly see Derrick nearly reprising his 30.8 minutes per game, perhaps in the 28 range, with Duane and Carlino splitting the other 12 minutes.   I can also see, if he continues to develop rapidly, Cohen cutting into Dawson's minutes, as Wojo has the opportunity to play 3 forwards up front (until Luke develops) or 2 forwards and JJJ.     There are only 9 guys right now and 10 in a month (assuming everyone stays healthy) so everyone is going to get their chance to play.   But it isn't difficult for me to formulate a scenario where Dawson and Cohen end up 9-10 in minutes played.    Conversely, if everything goes south, I can see Wojo gradually ramping up Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Cohen's minutes at the expense of Derrick, Juan, and Carlino.  Still too many unknowns for me.

I agree with most of your post...yet I don't see anyway Derrick plays 30 this year.  Maybe 20 if it plays out as you discuss with the full court press strategy - at least playing full court press you tap into Derrick's strength of being a very good on ball defender.  Not sure why Buzz refused to use that skill last season or press for that matter.

Would have been interesting to see if Duane was healthy if Buzz would have used him more...given that he only gave Deonte 12 minutes per game and Deonte was buried behind an unproductive upperclassmen, it just seems unlikely.  Buzz, when he had a deep bench/more experienced roster, always favored his upperclassmen.

[tower912]

The only way I see Derrick averaging 30 is if there is an injury.   The only one on the team I can see getting to 30 (once Luke is healthy)(assuming no one is lost for an extended time to injury) is possibly Carlino.    If Wojo is intent on playing uptempo and pressuring everywhere, I don't see anybody playing beyond 27-28.   

[muwarrior69]

My expectations for this years team are low but my hopes are high. Wojo will play all ten guys. He has to. Who gets the minutes will depend on how hard they practice and how they progress through the season. What the seniors will provide is leadership and if that means being a role player all the more to them. I'm sure they'll all be playing to win, but getting the D1 experience which most do not have is key to this year so that next year we can really compete with the better teams.

[wadesworld]

Dear Lord.  There have been some incredibly stupid arguments made on MUScoop before, and some of them were made by Ners (a college coach looking for a new job throwing games, to start...that's smart, ADs love those guys as their next basketball coach).  But I have never heard anything as stupid as a college coach deciding to play a player he considers worse because he himself wasn't that great in college.  That is absolutely absurd.

I have now figured out the player that Ners was.  Beyond babysitting the 6th graders during MU's basketball camps while actual coaches and players coach them up, Ners was the 5'7" guard who chucked and ducked his way through freshman and sophomore basketball and then was the 13th man on the varsity team and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting more time.  The 6'2" starting point guard went on to a mid major school and Ners still believes that if he just wasn't unfairly sat on the bench he would be in the NBA right now.  His coach was throwing the season and in turn ruined his career.

[Galway Eagle]

Dear Lord.  There have been some incredibly stupid arguments made on MUScoop before, and some of them were made by Ners (a college coach looking for a new job throwing games, to start...that's smart, ADs love those guys as their next basketball coach).  But I have never heard anything as stupid as a college coach deciding to play a player he considers worse because he himself wasn't that great in college.  That is absolutely absurd.

I have now figured out the player that Ners was.  Beyond babysitting the 6th graders during MU's basketball camps while actual coaches and players coach them up, Ners was the 5'7" guard who chucked and ducked his way through freshman and sophomore basketball and then was the 13th man on the varsity team and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting more time.  The 6'2" starting point guard went on to a mid major school and Ners still believes that if he just wasn't unfairly sat on the bench he would be in the NBA right now.  His coach was throwing the season and in turn ruined his career.

I mean if muggsy bogues could make it Ners could've to!

[BallBoy]

Brand - I don't think anyone who thought Derrick gave us a better chance to win last year argued that Derrick was good - only that he was the better of two very poor options. Buzz agreed - he even tried Jamil and Mayo at the point. If that doesn't indicate desperation nothing does.

This. I will also say that as bad as Derrick was, he wasn't the reason for our record. He was a reason out of many.

[MU82]

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

Derrick and John are guys who are way above-average at making extremely difficult shots/plays, are way below-average at making the extremely easy shots/plays, and are about average at making the average-difficulty stuff. 

Derrick has proven to be way above-average at anything on the offensive side of basketball? Really? Please name the extremely difficult shots/plays Derrick has demonstrated an ability to make.

[Benny B]

Derrick has proven to be way above-average at anything on the offensive side of basketball? Really? Please name the extremely difficult shots/plays Derrick has demonstrated an ability to make.

Just look at the shots he did make.  There isn't a bunny amongst them.

[rocky_warrior]

If I have to endure another year of threads like this, I might just shut the whole board down.

[jesmu84]

Just look at the shots he did make.  There isn't a bunny amongst them.

I laughed

[GGGG]

correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same. 

that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."...that's a far stretch from "you play to be your best in march."  if that's the case coaches would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as they would have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game/more difficult games/march. 

Again, that *isn't* what you were talking about earlier.  You were talking about giving time to players in preparation for *next* year.  Not giving players time early in the season so they can contribute later on in the same season.

Those are two different things completely.

[MU82]

If I have to endure another year of threads like this, I might just shut the whole board down.

That would be tragic, as the entirety of the interwebs likely would follow suit, leaving the world in total darkness!