Point Guard

[wadesworld]

I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

So you admit we played a team who couldn't win at the Y yet you dismiss his poor performance due to foul trouble? Must just be a coincidence that he got called for fouls while nobody else in MU did. Or it could be that he can't even guard players on a team that wouldn't even win at the Y (your words) without fouling. That doesn't bode well for being able to guard legitimate D1 teams...

[BallBoy]

I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

I don't anyone said that. The person you directly quoted said if he doesn't get time this year then there are now two coaching staffs that he wasn't ready at this level.

Arm chair coaching? Teapot meet kettle

[Nevada233]

I don't anyone said that. The person you directly quoted said if he doesn't get time this year then there are now two coaching staffs that he wasn't ready at this level.

Arm chair coaching? Teapot meet kettle

You guys know it all.. Hes still on the team so theres nothing much more to talk about... Carry on..

[connie]

The only thing we learned from WL is that Derrick is going to get minutes this year, which given our 9 players is not a surprise.  What was a surprise was the few minutes Dawson got.  Seeing the Luthers play there really is little else that can be said.  I am sure the staff wanted to see our guys against some other guys, but they barely got that.  I reserve all judgement and opinion until we have some basis.

[NersEllenson]

So you admit we played a team who couldn't win at the Y yet you dismiss his poor performance due to foul trouble? Must just be a coincidence that he got called for fouls while nobody else in MU did. Or it could be that he can't even guard players on a team that wouldn't even win at the Y (your words) without fouling. That doesn't bode well for being able to guard legitimate D1 teams...

Dawson didn't have a good outing yesterday, but to suggest he couldn't guard D-3 players is ridiculous.  He's a good defender.  Second best on team after the all world defender Derrick last season with regard to points per 100 possessions played.

One foul Homer commented the producer who rarely ever reacts to anything/calls, actually let out a sigh..as in awful call..which we didn't even see on the broadcast...was on an inbounds play.  Another of the fouls was providing help defense, where he took a foul for the team to prevent a sure lay up by WLC. Missed 2 shots.  Nothing else.

It's pretty remarkable to me at all the conclusions being drawn from this game against a D-3 opponent.  Even more remarkable that after 975 minutes of seeing everything Derrick Wilson could do last year, some still feel he's a major minute player this season.  If you want to draw any conclusions from the game with regard to PG pecking order...it's Carlino, Duane, Derrick.  Dawson isn't being slotted for PG on this team, and I feel that's a good decision - when you have Carlino and Duane.

Also, I wouldn't get too excited at this point about Juan or Cohen, until they face guys with much more strength and athleticism.  Cohen looks to have a lot of potential, yet until I see him do it against D-1 athletes, I'm not going to get too excited.  He has a ways to go in strength, but the skills are there.

[forgetful]

Dawson didn't have a good outing yesterday, but to suggest he couldn't guard D-3 players is ridiculous.  He's a good defender.  Second best on team after the all world defender Derrick last season with regard to points per 100 possessions played.

One foul Homer commented the producer who rarely ever reacts to anything/calls, actually let out a sigh..as in awful call..which we didn't even see on the broadcast...was on an inbounds play.  Another of the fouls was providing help defense, where he took a foul for the team to prevent a sure lay up by WLC. Missed 2 shots.  Nothing else.

It's pretty remarkable to me at all the conclusions being drawn from this game against a D-3 opponent.  Even more remarkable that after 975 minutes of seeing everything Derrick Wilson could do last year, some still feel he's a major minute player this season.  If you want to draw any conclusions from the game with regard to PG pecking order...it's Carlino, Duane, Derrick.  Dawson isn't being slotted for PG on this team, and I feel that's a good decision - when you have Carlino and Duane.

Also, I wouldn't get too excited at this point about Juan or Cohen, until they face guys with much more strength and athleticism.  Cohen looks to have a lot of potential, yet until I see him do it against D-1 athletes, I'm not going to get too excited.  He has a ways to go in strength, but the skills are there.

Being completely honest.  The more you talk about Derrick and Dawson, the less I think you understand about basketball. 

[NersEllenson]

Being completely honest.  The more you talk about Derrick and Dawson, the less I think you understand about basketball. 

LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

[GGGG]

LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

You've never pointed out these stats before?  What has taken you so long?

[NersEllenson]

You've never pointed out these stats before?  What has taken you so long?

It just dawned on me after forgetful's post that I needed to re-evaluate my understanding of basketball.  So, I dug a little deeper, and found those "forgetful" stats and drew those conclusions.

I do look forward to forgetful's reply, enlightening me as to where my understanding of basketball could be improved.   Hopefully, I'll get a response to my post that will articulate his position as to how what I posted illustrates a clear misunderstanding of basketball. 

[Tums Festival]

On this team everyone will need to contribute, including Derrick. The question is how will Wojo use him compared to how Brent did last year.

And I agree you can't use yesterday's game as an accurate indicator of Dawson's ability.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

LOL.  No worries.  I understand that playing 4 on 5 in the game of basketball when that "missing person" is your PG is a formula for disaster.  I find it funny that guys who have a HUGE sample size of what Derrick has been, and have a minute sample size of what Dawson can be - can draw conclusions that a guy who has made 2, 3pt shots through the end of his junior year and is a career 44% FT shooter at the PG position is a key cog to a winning basketball team.

It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

[wadesworld]

It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

On top of that, we've only seen a little of what Dawson can do while we see a lot of what Derrick can do because 2 coaches who get paid millions of dollars to decide who is better have decided Derrick is better.

[Johnny B]

On top of that, we've only seen a little of what Dawson can do while we see a lot of what Derrick can do because 2 coaches who get paid millions of dollars to decide who is better have decided Derrick is better.

Maybe we've seen all Dawson can do...

[Texas Western]

I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

I agree with this. The way I look at it, we have the entire non conference season to get a more accurate read on young Mr. Dawson's ability.  Given all the pressing on defense that is likely to occur, Dawson will get at least 10-15 minutes each game. I am looking forward to seeing what he can do to help our cause.  For what ever it is worth the coaches have consistently said in interviews that John has to keep it simple and avoid turnovers. So I am going to be focusing on that aspect of his game. Hopefully he can work his way into a productive role.

[avid1010]

You play to win the games in front of you. 

that's ridiculous...i've personally listened to some of the best coaches in the game, most noteable tom izzo, speak on coaching conferences where they state they are more than willing to give up a little early in the season to be playing the best ball in march.  and while referencing tom crean may not add support to the argument...i listened to him discuss his rationale for giving so many minutes early on to certain players...during certain years as well.

[GGGG]

that's ridiculous...i've personally listened to some of the best coaches in the game, most noteable tom izzo, speak on coaching conferences where they state they are more than willing to give up a little early in the season to be playing the best ball in march.  and while referencing tom crean may not add support to the argument...i listened to him discuss his rationale for giving so many minutes early on to certain players...during certain years as well.

In your previous post, you were mentioning sitting Derrick to get better for next year.  In this one you are mentioning giving guys minutes early on so they have experience for later in the year.

You do realize those are two completely different things right?  I mean, that's one of the reasons these cupcake games are on the schedule.

[MU82]

I mean you guys on message boards are saying things that the coaches aren't even saying about these kids...
Getting in foul trouble in a scrimmage against a team that would lose at the YMCA does not give me any indication that Dawson does not have what it takes to suceed at this level.

Thats like saying Juan Anderson is a first round draft pick because he scored 27 last night, which we know is not true...

Dwight Buycks was another unrated point guard that everyone assumed wouldn't make it and he's doing pretty good for himself if I might say so myself... Respect the process, if it doesn't work out for him fine but the armchair coaching kills me...

Umm ... I didn't say a single thing you are criticizing me for in this post.

All I said is that Dawson hasn't shown much as a Warrior. That is not based on an exhibition game that I didn't even see. It is based upon what we saw last season.

If you think Dawson is wonderful, good for you. If you think fans can't come on a fan board and talk about the team, even if that talk is critical, you might want to find other Internet sites to peruse.

[NersEllenson]

It's really quite simple. We've seen a lot of what Derrick can do. He is not very good. We have seen a little of what Dawson can do, and by all indications, he's worse. When we see more from Dawson, we will re-evaluate.

By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get...and you have an VERY relevant sample size of what Derrick can do.  So, to your point...we've seen very little of Dawson...and to evaluate after 1 exhibition game against WL is ridiculous. 

I don't think it's any surprise Derrick will get the opportunity to start this season - he's a high character kid, he's the incumbent, he's a senior - he certainly isn't an option to play at the shooting guard position, whereas Carlino, Duane and Dawson could all play that position along with Cohen and JJJ.  So, by default he's a PG.  Certainly he could be better than last year through his hard work, along with being surrounded by a better supporting cast than what Buzz chose to roll out last season.  Should be interesting to see how this season plays out.

Personally, I'm not going to draw a whole lot of conclusions on any of our guys this year until January - other than knowing Carlino and Burton should be solid and consistently our best scoring options.

[TheBurrEffect]

Umm ... I didn't say a single thing you are criticizing me for in this post.

All I said is that Dawson hasn't shown much as a Warrior. That is not based on an exhibition game that I didn't even see. It is based upon what we saw last season.

If you think Dawson is wonderful, good for you. If you think fans can't come on a fan board and talk about the team, even if that talk is critical, you might want to find other Internet sites to peruse.

Well of course he didn't, the Warriors lost 115-47

[willie warrior]

Seriously???  I said box out and a couple boards.  Not "elite" nor "gamechanger".  Read my previous posts on Derrick, I'm a realist... BUT -   He's the strongest guy on the team.  He might need to guard someone bigger out of necessity.  

Seriously????????????????? You said he should be a mini 4-I didn't. Buzz said he was an elite game changer. You said he is the strongest guy on the team. Who else has said that as fact. Since he is the strongest and is elite, he should be able to defend anybody. Right? Right? Seriously?????

That is laughable. Pretty tired of the raves for a PG that can't shoot, is marginal on FT's, has limited vision, can't take it to the hole, is a liability on offense, but is an average defender. But hey, he tries so we need to keep him in the game and hope lightning strikes.

[avid1010]

In your previous post, you were mentioning sitting Derrick to get better for next year.  In this one you are mentioning giving guys minutes early on so they have experience for later in the year.

You do realize those are two completely different things right?  I mean, that's one of the reasons these cupcake games are on the schedule.

correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same.  

that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."...that's a far stretch from "you play to be your best in march."  if that's the case coaches would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as they would have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game/more difficult games/march.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get...and you have an VERY relevant sample size of what Derrick can do.  So, to your point...we've seen very little of Dawson...and to evaluate after 1 exhibition game against WL is ridiculous. 

I don't think it's any surprise Derrick will get the opportunity to start this season - he's a high character kid, he's the incumbent, he's a senior - he certainly isn't an option to play at the shooting guard position, whereas Carlino, Duane and Dawson could all play that position along with Cohen and JJJ.  So, by default he's a PG.  Certainly he could be better than last year through his hard work, along with being surrounded by a better supporting cast than what Buzz chose to roll out last season.  Should be interesting to see how this season plays out.

Personally, I'm not going to draw a whole lot of conclusions on any of our guys this year until January - other than knowing Carlino and Burton should be solid and consistently our best scoring options.

You asked how people could prefer Derrick over Dawson despite the disparity in sample sizes, I gave you an answer. And by sample size, I'm not talking about just the WLC game, I'm talking about all of last season. I agree that Dawson should have gotten more time last season, but after looking at Derrick's large sample size and Dawson's small sample size, I preferred Derrick. Not because he was good, but because Dawson wasn't better (IMHO). Maybe if Dawson got more run (which I was hoping for) maybe he would have shown us more and my opinion would have changed. Maybe he will get more run this season and he will show me something to change my mind. I agree that I don't think we can make any true judgments about this team until much later in the season.

[g0lden3agle]

correct, and i stand by that point, and have heard some of the best in country say the same.  that said, you're quote was "you play to win the game in front of you."  if that's the case we would never mess with lineups and minutes early in the year as we have to play to win the game...not play to get better for the next game or more difficult game. 

Early in the year "playing to win the game" and "playing to win in March" are not mutually exclusive.  You can tinker with lineups and get people some minutes without significantly risking your odds of winning against cupcakes.

[Lennys Tap]

By all indications Dawson's worse?  Worse than what?  You are basically saying he's worse than as bad as bad can get.

Honest differences of opinion are part of what makes the world go around. We get it. You think that Derrick is as bad as bad can get. And we get it that you think you are more qualified to come to that conclusion than we are to come to a different one. But as you laugh at us and ridicule us and say we're not worthy to differ with your opinion please remember that our conclusion (that Derrick, while SEVERELY LIMITED as a point guard, is a better option than Dawson at that position) is the same one that two coaches (after months of daily observation) came to. I won't be a total dick and say that these guys have forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know (although that's true). And I won't further conclude that because they are infinitely more qualified to judge who should or shouldn't play (although that's true, too) that your opinion is worthless. Because it's an OPINION, and there's always a chance that your less informed opinion than theirs might be right. But PLEASE, PLEASE, stop with the crap that you're the expert and we're not worthy to disagree. The real experts are on our side of the argument.

[Benny B]

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

Derrick and John are guys who are way above-average at making extremely difficult shots/plays, are way below-average at making the extremely easy shots/plays, and are about average at making the average-difficulty stuff.  And since the distribution in D-I hoops certainly favors a frequency of shots/plays that skew towards the easy side of average, whoever gets more PT is going to be more frustrating than the other.

In other words, the same people who favor Dawson over Derrick would favor Derrick over Dawson if the PT situation were reversed.