They need to be run out of town.
This will go down in the annals of bad hires at MU to the level of Dukiet.
IF it happens.
Stop. Just leave. Don't come back. I think Martin is the most intriguing candidate on the list. If not Howland, it should be Martin.
From Vol Nation- and believe me, I didn't have to look far to find this- sure seems the overwhelming consensus down there-
"would be the best thing to happen to TN and for Martin"
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 02:57:40 PM
They need to be run out of town.
This will go down in the annals of bad hires at MU to the level of Dukiet.
I'm on the anti- Cuonzo bandwagon. I was catching a lot of flak last night for condemning his poor coaching stint in the 1st half of last night's game. The guy screams inconsistency and reeks of Tubby Smith.
Quote from: MarkusSharkus on March 29, 2014, 02:58:54 PM
Stop. Just leave. Don't come back. I think Martin is the most intriguing candidate on the list. If not Howland, it should be Martin.
That CollegeInsider.com championship at Mo. State really did it for you, huh?
HOWLAND -- HE'S BEEN TO THE BIG DANCE
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 29, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
I'm on the anti- Cuonzo bandwagon. I was catching a lot of flak last night for condemning his poor coaching stint in the 1st half of last night's game. The guy screams inconsistency and reeks of Tubby Smith.
Tubby could coach and manage a big time program circles around this clown (Cuonzo).
Another easy to find sample of feelings about Cuonzo from Vol Nation- just read the glee they have over our possibly being this dumb-
"God you people are stupid.
Marquette wouldn't go after a guy who wasn't a good coach."
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 02:57:40 PM
They need to be run out of town.
This will go down in the annals of bad hires at MU to the level of Dukiet.
I'm already out of town but I'd support him if hired. He's not shaka, but nobody is. Get over it. You want to make a big scene and cry if Marquette decides that a guy with stong integrity and a solid resume gets hired? Would be happy to see anyone like that go away for a while. Cuonzo isn't perfect by any stretch but he may be the best for the job. Can't remember how many people acted this way when former UNO defector Buzz Williams was hired. I imagine you were one that immediately hated it and thought it to be worse than Dukiet.
Quote from: MU06CU10 on March 29, 2014, 03:05:44 PM
I'm already out of town but I'd support him if hired. He's not shaka, but nobody is. Get over it. You want to make a big scene and cry if Marquette decides that a guy with stong integrity and a solid resume gets hired? Would be happy to see anyone like that go away for a while. Cuonzo isn't perfect by any stretch but he may be the best for the job. Can't remember how many people acted this way when former UNO defector Buzz Williams was hired. I imagine you were one that immediately hated it and thought it to be worse than Dukiet.
"solid resume"?!?!?!? sure.
And you imagine wrong about my reaction when Buzz was hired, so keep imagining.
I read this board religiously daily. I very seldom comment. I just had to chime in and say that Hutch sounds like a total idiot and has no knowledge of college basketball. I have read everyone of his posts today and every new one makes him sound stupider then the previous!
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:15:00 PM
I read this board religiously daily. I very seldom comment. I just had to chime in and say that Hutch sounds like a total idiot and has no knowledge of college basketball. I have read everyone of his posts today and every new one makes him sound stupider then the previous!
"stupider" enough said there. Thanks for reading.
Well, at least someone has had it up to here with ridiculous decisions. This would be too much.
YOU ARE AN IDIOT! I WILL BET EVERYTHING I OWN, WHICH I GUARANTEE IS MORE THEN YOU HAVE LIVING IN YOUR MOTHERS BASEMENT THAT MARTIN WOULD BE A BETTER RECRUITER AT MARQUETTE THEN HOWLAND WOULD BE!
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 02:57:40 PM
They need to be run out of town.
This will go down in the annals of bad hires at MU to the level of Dukiet.
Did you forget to take your medication this morning?
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on March 29, 2014, 03:21:39 PM
Did you forget to take your medication this morning?
Maybe try to add some substance instead of a baseless personal attack- tell us why Martin would be anything more than the mediocre at best coach his record indicates?
Quote from: MU06CU10 on March 29, 2014, 03:05:44 PM
Can't remember how many people acted this way when former UNO defector Buzz Williams was hired. I imagine you were one that immediately hated it and thought it to be worse than Dukiet.
So what you're saying is we should hope to win the lottery twice?
Remember, you as a college fan have access to 5% of the available information on coaches. Do you know how he relates to his players? Do you know what recruiting networks he has? Do you know what the players think of him? Do you know if he is ethical? Do you know if he is looking to jump ship for a blue blood? Do you know how much he is demanding for salary.
Let the committee do their due diligence. They know better than we do.
Add me to that "idiot" list
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:20:16 PM
YOU ARE AN IDIOT! I WILL BET EVERYTHING I OWN, WHICH I GUARANTEE IS MORE THEN YOU HAVE LIVING IN YOUR MOTHERS BASEMENT THAT MARTIN WOULD BE A BETTER RECRUITER AT MARQUETTE THEN HOWLAND WOULD BE!
+10000
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 29, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Remember, you as a college fan have access to 5% of the available information on coaches. Do you know how he relates to his players? Do you know what recruiting networks he has? Do you know what the players think of him? Do you know if he is ethical? Do you know if he is looking to jump ship for a blue blood? Do you know how much he is demanding for salary.
Let the committee do their due diligence. They know better than we do.
Yeah, respect the process! ;D
OMG HutchtheClutch thinks I'm an idiot
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 03:24:13 PM
Maybe try to add some substance instead of a baseless personal attack- tell us why Martin would be anything more than the mediocre at best coach his record indicates?
Hutch...with all due respect, you offer great advice and you, yourself, should consider it. Your subject line degrades anyone in favor of Cuonzo. So, if I am a fan of Cuonzo, I'm an idiot? If you stand by that statement, you certainly demonstrate traits of ignorance and act like an ignoramous. This is just my opinion, but let's keep the board and messages backed up by facts and have constructive arguments and opinions.
If you put Martin at UCLA, he recruits the same players that Howland got.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 29, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Remember, you as a college fan have access to 5% of the available information on coaches. Do you know how he relates to his players? Do you know what recruiting networks he has? Do you know what the players think of him? Do you know if he is ethical? Do you know if he is looking to jump ship for a blue blood? Do you know how much he is demanding for salary.
Let the committee do their due diligence. They know better than we do.
Can you please stop arbitrarily assigning a made up percentage to the amount of information you think we have compared to coaches? You'd be surprised how many people in life continually make poor decisions despite having 'all the information.'
Just look at Ted Thompson when he drafted AJ Hawk. Anyone with a basic understanding of a 3-4 defense (which we were transitioning to) and the personnel philosophy behind it (quality defensive lineman are harder to aquire than linebackers) knew the common sense, home run draft choice was Haloti Ngata and Thompson, a guy who's highly regarded in his field with 'all the information' completely whiffed.
The idiots keep on coming.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 03:39:16 PM
Can you please stop arbitrarily assigning a made up percentage to the amount of information you think we have compared to coaches? You'd be surprised how many people in life continually make poor decisions despite having 'all the information.'
Just look at Ted Thompson when he drafted AJ Hawk. Anyone with a basic understanding of a 3-4 defense (which we were transitioning to) and the personnel philosophy behind it (quality defensive lineman are harder to aquire than linebackers) knew the common sense, home run draft choice was Haloti Ngata and Thompson, a guy who's highly regarded in his field with 'all the information' completely whiffed.
How dare you disrespect "The Sizzler" !!!!
So far the pol shows 4 out of 5 scoopers prefer Howland. Time to vote folks.
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
Quote from: Warriors12 on March 29, 2014, 03:37:56 PM
Hutch...with all due respect, you offer great advice and you, yourself, should consider it. Your subject line degrades anyone in favor of Cuonzo. So, if I am a fan of Cuonzo, I'm an idiot? If you stand by that statement, you certainly demonstrate traits of ignorance and act like an ignoramous. This is just my opinion, but let's keep the board and messages backed up by facts and have constructive arguments and opinions.
There's no rocket science behind why he's not a good candidate- especially for a program like MU with the resources, fan support, investment in the program, tradition, etc. that MU brings to the table. All you have to do is look at his incredibly staggering mediocre coaching record. UT was ready to run him out of town until two weeks ago and he probably will be eventually if he stays there.
I'll wear the scarlet letter of the Cuonzo camp proudly if it clearly separates me from the brain dead professional wrestler style analysis offered up by Hutchwasclutch
I agree, idiot.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
From Vol Nation- and believe me, I didn't have to look far to find this- sure seems the overwhelming consensus down there-
"would be the best thing to happen to TN and for Martin"
I sure hope the V Tech people do read this board with people calling Buzz the idiot savant, disingenuous and a sleazy recruiter. They might revoke his job offer.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 29, 2014, 03:41:15 PM
How dare you disrespect "The Sizzler" !!!!
It's burned into my memory ESPN showing highlights of a 340 pound Ngata as a rugby star shortly before the Packers selection. I turned the draft off when Hawk's name was announced.
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
Less absurd than saying a guy who hasn't set the recruiting world on fire will be much better if he comes here because? We'll give him the resources UT boosters wisely withheld once they began to notice their investment wasn't yielding acceptable returns?
Quote from: Jajuannaman on March 29, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
I'll wear the scarlet letter of the Cuonzo camp proudly if it clearly separates me from the brain dead professional wrestler style analysis offered up by Hutchwasclutch
Well done.
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
You're completely discounting the recruiting he did at Pitt and the two consecutive sweet 16's he had there prior to leaving for UCLA.
I think Milwaukee is a more desirable city than Pittsburgh.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 03:43:03 PM
There's no rocket science behind why he's not a good candidate- especially for a program like MU with the resources, fan support, investment in the program, tradition, etc. that MU brings to the table. All you have to do is look at his incredibly staggering mediocre coaching record. UT was ready to run him out of town until two weeks ago and he probably will be eventually if he stays there.
I must admit I have warmed up to Martin and here is why...
1. Top 20 Offense and Defense by KenPom
2. Head Coaching Wins: Takes MSU from a struggling program and by year 2 has a great win percentage and finishes first in conference by year 3; TN...absorbed Pearl issues/program clean?/etc. and by year 2, NIT, year 3, sweet 16...both programs he quickly accelerated and created a positive upward trend of success. A program is not built in 1 or 2 years; it takes time.
3. Recruitment: I agree that this is the one area that I am not sure about, but it is hard to compare how he would do at Marquette with our resources and our Big East name versus TN, the issues that existed, the rumored expenses being cut, and the fact that BIg East is still better overall in the long-term than SEC. Still...he has recruited 3 star players, 4 star, and 5 star...how many 5 stars did Buzz bring in?
4. Coaching ability: x's and o's...a step up IMO versus Buzz. In game management and x's and o's were not Buzz's best strength, but I believe Cuonzo is much better.
5. Player development: Even though he did not bring in consistent 4 and 5 stars, his players improved and accelerated their growth well. Sometimes, I'd argue that a lot of Buzz's players didn't improve, were stagnant, etc.
Lol you Martin haters are hilarious
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
Yeah, but he still recruited better @ Pitt than, Cuonzo did @ Tennesee.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 03:39:16 PM
Can you please stop arbitrarily assigning a made up percentage to the amount of information you think we have compared to coaches? You'd be surprised how many people in life continually make poor decisions despite having 'all the information.'
Just look at Ted Thompson when he drafted AJ Hawk. Anyone with a basic understanding of a 3-4 defense (which we were transitioning to) and the personnel philosophy behind it (quality defensive lineman are harder to aquire than linebackers) knew the common sense, home run draft choice was Haloti Ngata and Thompson, a guy who's highly regarded in his field with 'all the information' completely whiffed.
I'm not saying those with all the info are always right. I'm saying they are more often right than those with less information.
And while Ngata would have been the better pick, I think Hawk has done just fine.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
From Vol Nation- and believe me, I didn't have to look far to find this- sure seems the overwhelming consensus down there-
"would be the best thing to happen to TN and for Martin"
Means nothing - they are like the rest of the SEC. They preferred their coach when he was a cheater.
These people appear even dumber than all of the new posters here the last week or so.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 29, 2014, 04:01:55 PM
I'm not saying those with all the info are always right. I'm saying they are more often right than those with less information.
And while Ngata would have been the better pick, I think Hawk has done just fine.
Hawk's a bum, although I admit he has a knack for making more tackles 8-10 yards down field while being drug by an opposing RB after reacting slowly to the play than any linebacker I have ever watched.
And can you at least admit that your 5% garbage is completely made up by you and isn't a factual statement?
I'm just not understanding the love for Cuonzo Martin. Based on his recruiting record and his won-loss record, there's nothing there to get excited about. He had a veteran team this year, so their run to the Sweet 16 isn't that out of bounds. But the quality of players he's been recruiting would indicate a decline in the coming seasons.
And as far as UCLA "recruiting itself," Howland had more recruiting success than Steve Lavin did. He also produced the 9th rated class his last year a Pitt. There's no evidence to suggest Howland wouldn't be able to get quality players to come to MU.
Quote from: brandx on March 29, 2014, 04:03:04 PM
Means nothing - they are like the rest of the SEC. They preferred their coach when he was a cheater.
These people appear even dumber than all of the new posters here the last week or so.
Can't wait until the seach is over so the new posters can leave.
Wasn't one of the things about Martin that made him appear "available" the fanbase/university's perceived lack of support for the guy?
Well if this thread is anything to go on, he's trading one non-supportive fanbase for another.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 03:39:16 PM
Can you please stop arbitrarily assigning a made up percentage to the amount of information you think we have compared to coaches? You'd be surprised how many people in life continually make poor decisions despite having 'all the information.'
Just look at Ted Thompson when he drafted AJ Hawk. Anyone with a basic understanding of a 3-4 defense (which we were transitioning to) and the personnel philosophy behind it (quality defensive lineman are harder to aquire than linebackers) knew the common sense, home run draft choice was Haloti Ngata and Thompson, a guy who's highly regarded in his field with 'all the information' completely whiffed.
Matty, I like most of your posts, but, actually, you are the one that whiffed this time. Hawk was drafted for a 4-3 defense - not a 3-4. I believe that Sanders was the DC then. Capers was still in the future.
Man, I hope Chords or any other admistrator dont read this board. This is embarrassing! Some of yall respond to Cuonzo Martin possibly being OUR new head coach with so much HATRED but respond to Brian Wardle possibly being the guy as just a dislike or "pass".
Pathetic!
Ners, Goose and Chicobailbonds much respect to you guys!
Pretty awesome you dickheads can hate a coach before he even is hired.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 29, 2014, 04:08:26 PM
Pretty awesome you dickheads can hate a coach before he even is hired.
RIGHT. Just doesnt make any sense to me
Quote from: Warriors12 on March 29, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
I must admit I have warmed up to Martin and here is why...
1. Top 20 Offense and Defense by KenPom
a. -With Bruce Pearl Recruits mainly starting
b. If you're top 20 in defense and offense, why do you barely make it into the tourney as a play in game?
2. Head Coaching Wins: Takes MSU from a struggling program and by year 2 has a great win percentage and finishes first in conference by year 3; TN...absorbed Pearl issues/program clean?/etc. and by year 2, NIT, year
a. Not bad...
3, sweet 16...both programs he quickly accelerated and created a positive upward trend of success. A program is not built in 1 or 2 years; it takes time.
a. Barely made NCAA tourney
b. Next year, the team is going to be decimated as Pearl's recruits leave and Martin's best recruit (unpolished) leaves for the NBA. Martin didn't recruit well enough to reload.
3. Recruitment: I agree that this is the one area that I am not sure about, but it is hard to compare how he would do at Marquette with our resources and our Big East name versus TN, the issues that existed, the rumored expenses being cut, and the fact that BIg East is still better overall in the long-term than SEC. Still...he has recruited 3 star players, 4 star, and 5 star...how many 5 stars did Buzz bring in?
a. Buzz didn't bring in 2 star recruits, like Martin. Don't forget to mention that!!!
4. Coaching ability: x's and o's...a step up IMO versus Buzz. In game management and x's and o's were not Buzz's best strength, but I believe Cuonzo is much better.
a. How is Cuonzo much better? Clearly, if you can't state why and supply evidence.... then you don't know.
5. Player development: Even though he did not bring in consistent 4 and 5 stars, his players improved and accelerated their growth well. Sometimes, I'd argue that a lot of Buzz's players didn't improve, were stagnant, etc.
a. Tell me which of Martin's recruits blossomed well, under his tutelage? His major recruit, Jarnell Stokes is criticized by NBA scouts for not being close to being polished. Martin takes the blame for lack of development here.
This board really became a sh1tshow lately. Thanks Buzz.
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
A school like Marquette in 1977 recruited itself. The defending national champs with the hip image had the best high school players lined up to become a Warrior. Then we changed coaches and within a few years Marquette was spiraling into irrelevance. The coach matters. Ben Howland is a proven game coach and recruiter.
I must say I am very intrigued by Cuonzo Martin. I have no sources, no facts, no basis I am going off of this, but I truly feel that all the recruits stay if Cuonzo is hired, and I will also go out on a limb and say that Marquette's chances of landing Diamond Stone go up exponentially if he is the pick over Howland.
If he brings along Jon Harris and Tracy Webster, I would feel even more confident with our recruiting future than under Buzz - and with Buzz I felt like we had a shot at a ton of top-rated recruits.
Tennessee, and the rest of the SEC (minus Kentucky and Florida) is a tricky group to evaluate. It is a football conference, no doubt, but that shouldn't take away the level of talent (players and coaches) the league has. Look at Frank Martin, who I actually view to be a strong coach. He hasn't done anything at South Carolina, after being a HUGE recruiter at Kansas State. Anthony Grant won at VCU, but has experienced struggles at Alabama. Mike Anderson won at Missouri (Elite Eight, Sweet 16), but can't do much at Arkansas.
I think too many of us are judging Martin on his recruiting abilities in recruiting-challenged conference. Unless you are at Kentucky or Florida, you won't be getting the blue chippers every school craves.
Put me on the town to be run out of town. Oh yeah, I already live in Auburn, Alabama. I'd love the hire, though would also be very happy with Howland.
But I'm going to support whoever is hired. I believe the problem in college sports is everyone trying to run every coach down after any brief stint. I'd be very excited if Cuonzo Martin signed, and look forward to a potential great run.
However, I do not believe we will ever see another run of three straight Sweet 16s including an Elite 8 for MU now that the Big East is restructured. We made the best of a bad situation, I like the new Big East, but that was a twice in a lifetime (early 70s and last three years).
i do think it's important to answer hutch's question as to whom is on board with this hiring. seeing as doc rivers is on the BoT and serving as an advisor to the hiring process you should maybe reconsider who you call an idiot...idiot. btw, tubby is 62.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Hawk's a bum, although I admit he has a knack for making more tackles 8-10 yards down field while being drug by an opposing RB after reacting slowly to the play than any linebacker I have ever watched.
And can you at least admit that your 5% garbage is completely made up by you and isn't a factual statement?
It's an expression. "We know ____% of what they do" kind of like "I've forgotten more about _____ then you will ever know." (That one also applies).
But yes, 5% is a made up number. The concept isn't though
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on March 29, 2014, 04:06:06 PM
Can't wait until the seach is over so the new posters can leave.
+800000000000000000000
Let's see, Martin played well in college for a good team. Then he had a several good years in the NBA.
He did well in coaching at a small school and moved on to do bigger things.
The last MU coach with this story line was....
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on March 29, 2014, 04:25:43 PM
Let's see, Martin played well in college for a good team. Then he had a several good years in the NBA.
He did well in coaching at a small school and moved on to do bigger things.
The last MU coach with this story line was....
It doesnt matter. Hes a good guy. Great coach. And will do better than Brent. Mark my word!
Quote from: brandx on March 29, 2014, 04:03:04 PM
Means nothing - they are like the rest of the SEC. They preferred their coach when he was a cheater.
These people appear even dumber than all of the new posters here the last week or so.
The new posters have taken over the board as of late. Some have great comments and others are all over the place, contradicting themselves and looking for things to argue with. But, have to like the fortitude they display with passion. Just need to watch what some are writing. Pastner, Hurley, Cronin, Gillen, Stephens, Doc Rivers, and the other names being thrown out are just a waste of ink on a keyboard.
That said, at this point in the process, I am personally at the point where MU officials should not be called idiots, because no one on this internet board actually knows what is occurring or what the potential coaches are asking for.
Next year, whoever the coach is, will get a pass. The team will be alittle short up front with Taylor at the #5 until Fischer arrives. Might be a similar season as this year, BUT in 2015 everything changes. This is where the job for the new coach gets interesting because he knows what he has. If the new coach can maintain current recruits and players and gets Stone, here you go:
2015: (per Rivals)
Duane Wilson 4 star
JJJ 4 star
Hill 4 star
Fischer 4 star
Burton 4 star
Cohen 4 star
Nick N 4 star
Diamond Stone 5 star
Folks, thats seven 4 stars and one 5 star recruits. Probably the best MU has had in many, many years and most coaches would love to have that contingent.
Can Martin, Howland or whoever hold the classes together in order to get to that 2015 season, that is the key. Maybe that is what appealing MU officials to Martin because of his ties to some of the players/recruits and if a coach can't be successful with that lineup, oh boy.....
So as the decision process goes, whoever it is, lets root them on and hope they can maintain these kids to stay onboard.
MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away,
If we cross our fingers and wish hard enough... anything can happen.
I know he told us how smart he was, but.... is there even one person that believes it besides the guy looking back at him in his mirror.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on March 29, 2014, 04:20:31 PM
Put me on the town to be run out of town. Oh yeah, I already live in Auburn, Alabama. I'd love the hire, though would also be very happy with Howland.
But I'm going to support whoever is hired. I believe the problem in college sports is everyone trying to run every coach down after any brief stint. I'd be very excited if Cuonzo Martin signed, and look forward to a potential great run.
However, I do not believe we will ever see another run of three straight Sweet 16s including an Elite 8 for MU now that the Big East is restructured. We made the best of a bad situation, I like the new Big East, but that was a twice in a lifetime (early 70s and last three years).
You can always count on bama to be the voice of reason. Glad to see you weigh in, wish you stopped by more.
Quote from: atk13thst on March 29, 2014, 04:27:43 PM
It doesnt matter. Hes a good guy. Great coach. And will do better than Brent. Mark my word!
That man was Al, my quick trigger friend.
Quote from: brandx on March 29, 2014, 04:32:02 PM
MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away,
If we cross our fingers and wish hard enough... anything can happen.
I know he told us how smart he was, but.... is there even one person that believes it besides the guy looking back at him in his mirror.
I think your mother is calling you in for dinner.
By the way, when you get back..... I will still be here with my line of critical questioning on Cuonzo that nobody, seems to be able to answer.
Ners, Goose or Chicosbailbonds
Whats up with these "veteran" posters with the "this is my house" and "go away" attitudes? If WE wasnt a MARQUETTE fan, trust me we wouldnt be here!
I must admit I have warmed up to Martin and here is why...
1. Top 20 Offense and Defense by KenPom
a. -With Bruce Pearl Recruits mainly starting. RESPONSE: Absolutely, true. I know some of those recruits were also 4 stars. MU had 4 star players...when was MU top 20 def/off? Just an anology...I don't believe one can discredit Martin.
b. If you're top 20 in defense and offense, why do you barely make it into the tourney as a play in game? RESPONSE: But they made it, correct? Year 3 only at TN, with a lot of baggage of a program in his first year inherited from Pearl.
2. Head Coaching Wins: Takes MSU from a struggling program and by year 2 has a great win percentage and finishes first in conference by year 3; TN...absorbed Pearl issues/program clean?/etc. and by year 2, NIT, year
a. Not bad...
3, sweet 16...both programs he quickly accelerated and created a positive upward trend of success. A program is not built in 1 or 2 years; it takes time.
a. Barely made NCAA tourney
b. Next year, the team is going to be decimated as Pearl's recruits leave and Martin's best recruit (unpolished) leaves for the NBA. Martin didn't recruit well enough to reload. RESPONSE: Time will tell...he had Senior leadership this year. Can we say with certainty that the next players don't step up and develop?
3. Recruitment: I agree that this is the one area that I am not sure about, but it is hard to compare how he would do at Marquette with our resources and our Big East name versus TN, the issues that existed, the rumored expenses being cut, and the fact that BIg East is still better overall in the long-term than SEC. Still...he has recruited 3 star players, 4 star, and 5 star...how many 5 stars did Buzz bring in?
a. Buzz didn't bring in 2 star recruits, like Martin. Don't forget to mention that!!! RESPONSE: ESPN recruitment ranking of Gardner = 2 stars. Buzz did. It is not always about the stars. Anderson, Taylor, Wilson were 4 star recruits...would you consider them studs?
4. Coaching ability: x's and o's...a step up IMO versus Buzz. In game management and x's and o's were not Buzz's best strength, but I believe Cuonzo is much better.
a. How is Cuonzo much better? Clearly, if you can't state why and supply evidence.... then you don't know. RESPONSE: ranked top 20 in Offense and Defense.
5. Player development: Even though he did not bring in consistent 4 and 5 stars, his players improved and accelerated their growth well. Sometimes, I'd argue that a lot of Buzz's players didn't improve, were stagnant, etc.
a. Tell me which of Martin's recruits blossomed well, under his tutelage? His major recruit, Jarnell Stokes is criticized by NBA scouts for not being close to being polished. Martin takes the blame for lack of development here. RESPONSE: See by point about 4 stars with Buzz above...my arguement here for #5 is in comparison to Buzz.
Quote from: Warriors12 on March 29, 2014, 04:39:25 PM
I must admit I have warmed up to Martin and here is why...
1. Top 20 Offense and Defense by KenPom
a. -With Bruce Pearl Recruits mainly starting. RESPONSE: Absolutely, true. I know some of those recruits were also 4 stars. MU had 4 star players...when was MU top 20 def/off? Just an anology...I don't believe one can discredit Martin.
b. If you're top 20 in defense and offense, why do you barely make it into the tourney as a play in game? RESPONSE: But they made it, correct? Year 3 only at TN, with a lot of baggage of a program in his first year inherited from Pearl.
2. Head Coaching Wins: Takes MSU from a struggling program and by year 2 has a great win percentage and finishes first in conference by year 3; TN...absorbed Pearl issues/program clean?/etc. and by year 2, NIT, year
a. Not bad...
3, sweet 16...both programs he quickly accelerated and created a positive upward trend of success. A program is not built in 1 or 2 years; it takes time.
a. Barely made NCAA tourney
b. Next year, the team is going to be decimated as Pearl's recruits leave and Martin's best recruit (unpolished) leaves for the NBA. Martin didn't recruit well enough to reload. RESPONSE: Time will tell...he had Senior leadership this year. Can we say with certainty that the next players don't step up and develop?
3. Recruitment: I agree that this is the one area that I am not sure about, but it is hard to compare how he would do at Marquette with our resources and our Big East name versus TN, the issues that existed, the rumored expenses being cut, and the fact that BIg East is still better overall in the long-term than SEC. Still...he has recruited 3 star players, 4 star, and 5 star...how many 5 stars did Buzz bring in?
a. Buzz didn't bring in 2 star recruits, like Martin. Don't forget to mention that!!! RESPONSE: ESPN recruitment ranking of Gardner = 2 stars. Buzz did. It is not always about the stars. Anderson, Taylor, Wilson were 4 star recruits...would you consider them studs?
4. Coaching ability: x's and o's...a step up IMO versus Buzz. In game management and x's and o's were not Buzz's best strength, but I believe Cuonzo is much better.
a. How is Cuonzo much better? Clearly, if you can't state why and supply evidence.... then you don't know. RESPONSE: ranked top 20 in Offense and Defense.
5. Player development: Even though he did not bring in consistent 4 and 5 stars, his players improved and accelerated their growth well. Sometimes, I'd argue that a lot of Buzz's players didn't improve, were stagnant, etc.
a. Tell me which of Martin's recruits blossomed well, under his tutelage? His major recruit, Jarnell Stokes is criticized by NBA scouts for not being close to being polished. Martin takes the blame for lack of development here. RESPONSE: See by point about 4 stars with Buzz above...my arguement here for #5 is in comparison to Buzz.
Im with you all the way. I was always a Cuonzo fan. He will excel Marquette to greater heights!
Quote from: atk13thst on March 29, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Ners, Goose or Chicosbailbonds
Whats up with these "veteran" posters with the "this is my house" and "go away" attitudes? If WE wasnt a MARQUETTE fan, trust me we wouldnt be here!
It wasn't directed at you. Actually it was only directed at about a half dozen of the new guys who look like they just want an argument.
I've noticed a lot of the veterans have been avoiding the board more since they showed up.
Article on Cuanzo: http://www.utsports.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/martin_cuonzo00.html (http://www.utsports.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/martin_cuonzo00.html)
A leader, recruiter, player development, coach...
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on March 29, 2014, 04:25:43 PM
Let's see, Martin played well in college for a good team. Then he had a several good years in the NBA.
He did well in coaching at a small school and moved on to do bigger things.
The last MU coach with this story line was....
Actually Martin played 7 games in the NBA and scored less than 30 total points in his career.
For all of you newbies go look up Buzz Williams and his accomplished record at New Orleans before he was an assistant under Crean for one year.
Quote from: damuts222 on March 29, 2014, 04:52:27 PM
For all of you newbies go look up Buzz Williams and his accomplished record at New Orleans before he was an assistant under Crean for one year.
Not interested. Never liked the guy as a coach
Quote from: brandx on March 29, 2014, 04:07:32 PM
Matty, I like most of your posts, but, actually, you are the one that whiffed this time. Hawk was drafted for a 4-3 defense - not a 3-4. I believe that Sanders was the DC then. Capers was still in the future.
You are 100% correct. I forgot about Sanders and it honestly slipped my mind. I'd still argue Ngata was a better selection but I made a mistake here.
We could just as easily substitute where Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers were drafted as a better (and more factual) example of people with all the information making mistakes at the highest level.
Quote from: Warriors12 on March 29, 2014, 04:39:25 PM
I must admit I have warmed up to Martin and here is why...
1. Top 20 Offense and Defense by KenPom
a. -With Bruce Pearl Recruits mainly starting. RESPONSE: Absolutely, true. I know some of those recruits were also 4 stars. MU had 4 star players...when was MU top 20 def/off? Just an anology...I don't believe one can discredit Martin.
RESPONSE: ranked top 20 in Offense and Defense.
If you are top 20 in offense and defense then you should be a darn good team and have a much better record than what Tennessee had this past year. Arizona, Florida, and Wichita St. were the only 3 other teams, being top 20 in both categories. All of those teams won over 33 games while Tennessee won 24. that's a 9 game difference. Those stats indicate underachievement and an inability to win games that should have been won by Tennessee. Key point.... Tennessee should have won last night, but didn't because Martin's calls on defense in the first half, set his team behind. Seems to me that Martin doesn't know how to use the horses that he had all year. He left some wins on the table.
Quote from: atk13thst on March 29, 2014, 04:27:43 PM
It doesnt matter. Hes a good guy. Great coach. And will do better than Brent. Mark my word!
I'm sure he is a good guy. But being a good guy doesn't necessarily translate into being a successful coach. I just don't see enough evidence, based on his track record, that leads me to think he'd be a good coach for Marquette.
But if the offensive charge didn't happen Tennessee may have won that game Deane, but that charge call was Martins fault too and his teams poor free throw shooting.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on March 29, 2014, 04:20:31 PM
Put me on the town to be run out of town. Oh yeah, I already live in Auburn, Alabama. I'd love the hire, though would also be very happy with Howland.
But I'm going to support whoever is hired. I believe the problem in college sports is everyone trying to run every coach down after any brief stint. I'd be very excited if Cuonzo Martin signed, and look forward to a potential great run.
However, I do not believe we will ever see another run of three straight Sweet 16s including an Elite 8 for MU now that the Big East is restructured. We made the best of a bad situation, I like the new Big East, but that was a twice in a lifetime (early 70s and last three years).
+1
To the OP, you called out TAMU on his 5% and he owned up to it. Maybe you can own up to the foolishness of blanket name-calling every poster who has a different opinion than yours on the relative merits of different coaching candidates.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on March 29, 2014, 05:08:10 PM
+1
To the OP, you called out TAMU on his 5% and he owned up to it. Maybe you can own up to the foolishness of blanket name-calling every poster who has a different opinion than yours on the relative merits of different coaching candidates.
I called out TAMU on his 5% comment and I don't believe I called anyone a name who disagrees with me. Perhaps that was rightfully aimed at the OP.
My bad. Apologies all around. Put me on ignore!
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 03:39:16 PM
Can you please stop arbitrarily assigning a made up percentage to the amount of information you think we have compared to coaches? You'd be surprised how many people in life continually make poor decisions despite having 'all the information.'
Just look at Ted Thompson when he drafted AJ Hawk. Anyone with a basic understanding of a 3-4 defense (which we were transitioning to) and the personnel philosophy behind it (quality defensive lineman are harder to aquire than linebackers) knew the common sense, home run draft choice was Haloti Ngata and Thompson, a guy who's highly regarded in his field with 'all the information' completely whiffed.
For the record I disagree on a lot of topics with TAMU, and yet he is one of my favorite scoop posters.
I would never call him out personally.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 29, 2014, 02:57:40 PM
They need to be run out of town.
This will go down in the annals of bad hires at MU to the level of Dukiet.
Aside from Howland, any suggestions? People shoot down names left and right, but apart from Howland or Shaka you would think there is no one else out there who may do a good job. Izzo, Self, Donovan aren't coming, it seems someone like that would be the only hires that would make some people happy.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 29, 2014, 05:03:39 PM
If you are top 20 in offense and defense then you should be a darn good team and have a much better record than what Tennessee had this past year. Arizona, Florida, and Wichita St. were the only 3 other teams, being top 20 in both categories. All of those teams won over 33 games while Tennessee won 24. that's a 9 game difference. Those stats indicate underachievement and an inability to win games that should have been won by Tennessee. Key point.... Tennessee should have won last night, but didn't because Martin's calls on defense in the first half, set his team behind. Seems to me that Martin doesn't know how to use the horses that he had all year. He left some wins on the table.
Deane:
Your "key point" is a sliver of evidence to a top 20 off/def season. Michigan is playing extremely well and has been shooting lights out from 3pt land!!! They are a really good team. Tennessee made some adjustments that worked...help Michigan to 28 points in second half and caused a lot of turnovers. As for the season and total wins, 24 is good. I did not watch every game they played, every loss. Did they leave some wins on the table...probably. In all honestly, you and I could go back and forth all day long because there is not just 1 stat or 1 trait that makes a good or bad coach. I appreciate your facts and stats you are throwing out here.
Wow.
Mention more coaches as targets and they bring their own walk-ons onto Scoop!
Quote from: atk13thst on March 29, 2014, 04:38:37 PM
Ners, Goose or Chicosbailbonds
Whats up with these "veteran" posters with the "this is my house" and "go away" attitudes? If WE wasnt a MARQUETTE fan, trust me we wouldnt be here!
One final word on this.
When you have people that start threads named "What
idiot(s) at MU are on board with a Cuonzo hiring?", plus condescending remarks in almost all of mikeDeanes' posts... well, that is why.
What if we were looking at a guy like this?
1st HC job: interim coach at Hawaii; went 2-6; NCAA recommended he be dis-associated from Hawaii athletics for rules infractions
2nd HC job: Boston U; 2 League Championships in 6 seasons (lowly American Conference)
Can you imagine the whining if MU hired a guy with those credentials? Nobody here would have accepted Rick Pitino as coach.
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:38:09 PM
If you put Martin at UCLA, he recruits the same players that Howland got.
Maybe the better question is if you put Martin at Pitt when Pitt was I think 2nd to last in the Big East when Howland takes over, how does it go?
I don't know the answer, none of us do. Just as none of us know if Howland would recruit better than Martin at MU.
100% conjecture. Howland has proved it at two solid programs and two tough leagues over many years. He also did very well at Northern Arizona.
Martin did well at Missouri State and this year at UT.
Martin may appeal to recruits differently than Howland. Ben's age worries me a bit. I'd like to see Martin with more success and the Purdue stuff worries me.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2014, 06:07:25 PM
Maybe the better question is if you put Martin at Pitt when Pitt was I think 2nd to last in the Big East when Howland takes over, how does it go?
I don't know the answer, none of us do. Just as none of us know if Howland would recruit better than Martin at MU.
100% conjecture. Howland has proved it at two solid programs and two tough leagues over many years. He also did very well at Northern Arizona.
Martin did well at Missouri State and this year at UT.
Martin may appeal to recruits differently than Howland. Ben's age worries me a bit. I'd like to see Martin with more success and the Purdue stuff worries me.
Sums up the way I feel pretty well.
Quote from: jeipps on March 29, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
A school like UCLA recruits itself, it has little to do with the coach. To say that Howland is going to come to Marquette and be this amazing recruiter because he went to 3 final fours is absurd! It's a lot easier to get blue chippers to UCLA!
It might be easier to recruit but it's not easy to get to 3 Final Fours anywhere...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2014, 06:07:25 PM
Maybe the better question is if you put Martin at Pitt when Pitt was I think 2nd to last in the Big East when Howland takes over, how does it go?
I don't know the answer, none of us do. Just as none of us know if Howland would recruit better than Martin at MU.
100% conjecture. Howland has proved it at two solid programs and two tough leagues over many years. He also did very well at Northern Arizona.
Martin did well at Missouri State and this year at UT.
Martin may appeal to recruits differently than Howland. Ben's age worries me a bit. I'd like to see Martin with more success and the Purdue stuff worries me.
agreed...i can live with martin, and will be happy to support him, and give him a chance for success at a university that seems to be a relatively easy place to have success. that said, howland would make me very happy, and i don't think there is much unknown with him (both good and bad). if there are concerns with howland in certain areas, put something/someone in place to ensure it's taken care of. unless someone like doc is saying that we don't want to miss out on martin, i'd really like see howland.
think there's any chance MU is just playing games to drive down howland's salary request? he obviously wants to be at MU more than any other school, and MU has obviously leaked that his salary expectations are too high (which i don't believe for a moment according to the reports on the $$$ we were going to spend on buzz or shaka), but from a bargaining standpoint MU has more leverage. howland's name doesn't go away, and i wouldn't think the university would string him along if they weren't interested?
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 29, 2014, 05:37:58 PM
For the record I disagree on a lot of topics with TAMU, and yet he is one of my favorite scoop posters.
I would never call him out personally.
(http://memecrunch.com/meme/1Y56Y/mutual-respect/image.png)
I for one welcome Martin as our Basketball overlord.
But yea.... about this Ben Howland guy... we need you Marquette... right now (see what I did there?)
No Martin for me ,we can do much better than that, someone young w/o baggage like Manning.
I feel the best 'big hire' coach is Howland and am surprised at the lack of movement in this direction. Martin may be an okay coach if hired, but has no impact with me. After b?g 10's final 4 success and MU's lack of any success, it's hard to get too excited...
Martin? Whatever.
Quote from: brandx on March 29, 2014, 04:32:02 PM
MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away, MikeDeanesDarkGlasses will go away,
If we cross our fingers and wish hard enough... anything can happen.
I know he told us how smart he was, but.... is there even one person that believes it besides the guy looking back at him in his mirror.
This is one of the rare times Brandx / Jockey and I have been on the same page.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 06, 2020, 03:50:09 PM
This is one of the rare times Brandx / Jockey and I have been on the same page.
I'm glad I could bring you two together.
Thanks for bringing my Cuonzo Martin post back to life. I hit that one on the head.
Why bump this
Quote from: Johnny B on January 06, 2020, 04:06:49 PM
Why bump this
I was trying to understand who MikeDeane's glasses is....went back to his first posts which started during the coaching search. And aside from reading about how much he wants Dayton in the Big East, thought Collins from NW would be a good choice for MU, etc, I got a laugh out of Jockey /Brandx's comments....that's why.
I will say this, MikeDeane's glasses and I both thought Shaka would be great and both thought Cuonzo would not be good. So we have certainly agreed on some things, too.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 06, 2020, 04:10:21 PM
I was trying to understand who MikeDeane's glasses is....went back to his first posts which started during the coaching search. And aside from reading about how much he wants Dayton in the Big East, thought Collins from NW would be a good choice for MU, etc, I got a laugh out of Jockey /Brandx's comments....that's why.
I will say this, MikeDeane's glasses and I both thought Shaka would be great and both thought Cuonzo would not be good. So we have certainly agreed on some things, too.
Does Shaka recruit student athletes or "good guys" for Texas? Does that explain the stagnancy of the program? He had better results at VC - albeit, troubled players.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
Does Shaka recruit student athletes or "good guys" for Texas? Does that explain the stagnancy of the program? He had better results at VC - albeit, troubled players.
He got lucky making the Final 4 in 2011. His teams were pretty good at VCU, not great. There was no guarantee he'd succeed moving to a tougher league
Shaka was in his second year, barely got into the NCAAs, won the play in game, and caught fire to the Final Four. Other than that, he's won a couple conference tournaments with VCU and the NIT with Texas. I don't think he has won an NCAA tournament game since, and no conference regular season titles.
I think he is terribly overrated given his actual success.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 06, 2020, 04:25:31 PM
Shaka was in his second year, barely got into the NCAAs, won the play in game, and caught fire to the Final Four. Other than that, he's won a couple conference tournaments with VCU and the NIT with Texas. I don't think he has won an NCAA tournament game since, and no conference regular season titles.
I think he is terribly overrated given his actual success.
Texas has elite facilities and boosters, not to mention home state advantage for a lot of good basketball players. I thought Shaka would be able to capitalize on that and could turn it into a potential Final Four run. Not so much.....
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 06, 2020, 04:24:35 PM
He got lucky making the Final 4 in 2011. His teams were pretty good at VCU, not great. There was no guarantee he'd succeed moving to a tougher league
That VCU team shouldn't have even made the field. Amazing run, but more amazing is what a career Shaka parlayed it into. And I was totally on board with that potential hiring too.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2020, 04:56:45 PM
That VCU team shouldn't have even made the field. Amazing run, but more amazing is what a career Shaka parlayed it into. And I was totally on board with that potential hiring too.
Me, too. I looked at the VCU teams pretty closely after "done deal" and remember thinking there wasn't a lot of meat on that bone other than a real good defense in 2013 that proceeded to get run off the court by Michigan. Was never a fan of his offense but thought he'd be a great hire. We will never know how he would have done here but success with him wouldn't have been a lock
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2020, 04:56:45 PM
That VCU team shouldn't have even made the field. Amazing run, but more amazing is what a career Shaka parlayed it into. And I was totally on board with that potential hiring too.
Classic crap shoot
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 06, 2020, 04:25:31 PM
Shaka was in his second year, barely got into the NCAAs, won the play in game, and caught fire to the Final Four. Other than that, he's won a couple conference tournaments with VCU and the NIT with Texas. I don't think he has won an NCAA tournament game since, and no conference regular season titles.
I think he is terribly overrated given his actual success.
The fact that he hadn't won any conference regular season titles helped me come to terms with "Done Deal." I feel that's a better predictor of success than a lucky few weeks in March when looking at MM coaches. Granted, I was excited for Havoc at Marquette.
Quote from: cheebs09 on January 06, 2020, 07:13:11 PM
The fact that he hadn't won any conference regular season titles helped me come to terms with "Done Deal." I feel that's a better predictor of success than a lucky few weeks in March when looking at MM coaches. Granted, I was excited for Havoc at Marquette.
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the NCAA tournament lucky - especially when 4 of them were by double digits. VCU was knocked out by Butler and they played them closely too.
We talk about "program trajectory" here some, and a few Scoopers don't like it. But it is a "thing" worth noting IMHO.
Shaka's trajectory as a coach ... not so good.
Shaka's VCU team had that one ridiculous run, and nobody can take that away from him and his team. I'm not gonna call it lucky. It was amazing, and congrats to them.
But after that, he went out in the second round, second round, first round and first round at VCU. His last team there had its worst record in several years and finished in 4th place in the conference after several 2nd-place finishes.
And then at Texas, after doing OK (but making a first-round NCAA exit) with Barnes' leftover talent, he went 11-22 his second year, then 19-15, then 21-16. Has yet to win an NCAA tourney game at Texas, and has a 31-42 conference record. All despite having all the advantages Texas has to offer and despite recruiting some darn good talent, including 5-stars.
I can just imagine Wojo going 11-22 his second year and 31-42 in conference games into his 5th season. Scoop woulda been up for grabs.
I say all that even though, like most others, I would have been thrilled about him coming to Marquette. Maybe the dynamic would have been such that he would have won big here. Thanks to Mrs. Shaka, we'll never know!
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the NCAA tournament lucky - especially when 4 of them were by double digits. VCU was knocked out by Butler and they played them closely too.
Since that Final Four, his record is marginally better than Wojo's.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the NCAA tournament lucky - especially when 4 of them were by double digits. VCU was knocked out by Butler and they played them closely too.
I see, but when MU loses to South Carolina in the NCAAs who won four tournament games and damn near a fifth to play for the national title...well since MU was the victim of one of those losses that cannot stand.
Hmmm
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the NCAA tournament lucky - especially when 4 of them were by double digits. VCU was knocked out by Butler and they played them closely too.
I was making a bit of a broader overall statement. John Groce immediately comes to mind as someone who cashed in on a good tournament performance whose resume was otherwise unimpressive.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 06, 2020, 08:13:39 PM
I see, but when MU loses to South Carolina in the NCAAs who won four tournament games and damn near a fifth to play for the national title...well since MU was the victim of one of those losses that cannot stand.
Hmmm
It's one thing to lose to SC, but to be manhandled by them is another. But go figure.....Frank Wright is a great coach. If Wojo had lost by less than 10 I'd give him some credit. Of course, I can't and won't have to because Wojo doesn't know how to create a defensive minded system that can win multiple tourney games. You guys, my following of detractors, cannot seem to process this. Instead your rebuttal is: Buttttt the stats say Wojo is better now...... Yes, he's average, up from atrocious. All you have to do is watch any game and see that the rotations, help, cutting off of passing lanes aren't run in a crisp manner as a unit. Never have been, never will. A good coach has his system implemented after he gets his guys into the program. Wojo has had that time, but never has developed a system. It's going to take a lot of luck to win multiple tourney games.
I wanted Wojo to succeed but he just doesn't have the intellect to coach great Xs and Os.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 08:36:19 PM
It's one thing to lose to SC, but to be manhandled by them is another. But go figure.....Frank Wright is a great coach. If Wojo had lost by less than 10 I'd give him some credit. Of course, I can't and won't have to because Wojo doesn't know how to create a defensive minded system that can win multiple tourney games. You guys, my following of detractors, cannot seem to process this. Instead your rebuttal is: Buttttt the stats say Wojo is better now...... Yes, he's average, up from atrocious. All you have to do is watch any game and see that the rotations, help, cutting off of passing lanes aren't run in a crisp manner as a unit. Never have been, never will. A good coach has his system implemented after he gets his guys into the program. Wojo has had that time, but never has developed a system. It's going to take a lot of luck to win multiple tourney games.
I wanted Wojo to succeed but he just doesn't have the intellect to coach great Xs and Os.
Who the hell is Frank Wright? You mean Frank Martin? The guy whose gone .500 since making the Final Four.
Do you even watch basketball?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 06, 2020, 08:37:46 PM
Who the hell is Frank Wright?
Frank Martin. Typo
I was reading a Frank Lloyd Wright article earlier. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 08:36:19 PM
It's one thing to lose to SC, but to be manhandled by them is another. But go figure.....Frank Wright is a great coach. If Wojo had lost by less than 10 I'd give him some credit. Of course, I can't and won't have to because Wojo doesn't know how to create a defensive minded system that can win multiple tourney games. You guys, my following of detractors, cannot seem to process this. Instead your rebuttal is: Buttttt the stats say Wojo is better now...... Yes, he's average, up from atrocious. All you have to do is watch any game and see that the rotations, help, cutting off of passing lanes aren't run in a crisp manner as a unit. Never have been, never will. A good coach has his system implemented after he gets his guys into the program. Wojo has had that time, but never has developed a system. It's going to take a lot of luck to win multiple tourney games.
I wanted Wojo to succeed but he just doesn't have the intellect to coach great Xs and Os.
Didn't realise South Carolina was being coached by a famous architect.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2020, 08:40:30 PM
Didn't realise South Carolina was being coached by a famous architect.
Their threes fall like water.
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555285987/shape/mentalfloss/fallingwaterhed-509493320.jpg)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2020, 08:46:47 PM
Their threes fall like water.
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555285987/shape/mentalfloss/fallingwaterhed-509493320.jpg)
Been to most of the Frank Lloyd Wright houses and have never seen that one. Beautiful.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2020, 08:40:30 PM
Didn't realise South Carolina was being coached by a famous architect.
His spacing is fantastic and his teams attack the rim fron unusual angles.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2020, 08:53:17 PM
Been to most of the Frank Lloyd Wright houses and have never seen that one. Beautiful.
Define most? FLW is credited with over 400 works around the globe, and the majority of them are single family residencies. All unique in their own way, but many are not overly noteworthy. His all-time list can still go toe-to-toe with just about any architect in history.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 06, 2020, 09:09:45 PM
Define most? FLW is credited with over 400 works around the globe, and the majority of them are single family residencies. All unique in their own way, but many are not overly noteworthy. His all-time list can still go toe-to-toe with just about any architect in history.
Architect Fight! We've reached a new low!
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 06, 2020, 09:09:45 PM
Define most? FLW is credited with over 400 works around the globe, and the majority of them are single family residencies. All unique in their own way, but many are not overly noteworthy. His all-time list can still go toe-to-toe with just about any architect in history.
Most was an overstatement but I'm within 4blocks to 5mi from over 30 of them and did the walk so at least been outside each of those. Then driven by quite a few more around Chicagoland Been to probably 4 in WI, a few in Michigan but I was young for those, one in Rockford I want to say? one in south bend and Taliesin. Not most by any means, but quite a few
Edit: drove by one in mass as well. And again was young for this but went to one in Canada.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2020, 09:21:24 PM
Most was an overstatement but I'm within 4blocks to 5mi from over 30 of them and did the walk so at least been outside each of those. Then driven by quite a few more around Chicagoland Been to probably 4 in WI, a few in Michigan but I was young for those, one in Rockford I want to say? one in south bend and Taliesin. Not most by any means, but quite a few
Nice. Wasn't trying to be critical or anything, just genuinely curious. It's amazing how many he has that are right in the middle of normal residential neighborhoods. It's also funny that he is pretty much the sole creditor in the prairie style, and all most people know him for is the Guggenheim and Falling Water, neither of which are prairie. Haven't been to Taliesin West yet, but its on the bucket list. I also don't feel at all bad about taking this thread off topic, because it's a pretty stupid and pointless thread anyways.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 06, 2020, 09:28:28 PM
Nice. Wasn't trying to be critical or anything, just genuinely curious. It's amazing how many he has that are right in the middle of normal residential neighborhoods. It's also funny that he is pretty much the sole creditor in the prairie style, and all most people know him for is the Guggenheim and Falling Water, neither of which are prairie. Haven't been to Taliesin West yet, but its on the bucket list. I also don't feel at all bad about taking this thread off topic, because it's a pretty stupid and pointless thread anyways.
Yeah it's interesting to me talking to other people about him. Because where I'm from you can't go more than a block without seeing his houses so I didn't learn about falling water or the Guggenheim till way later. Knew him for unity temple and his home/studio.
You want to talk architects? Let's talk Frederick Olmsted! Central Park & Prospect Park, and here in MKE Lake Park, Washington Park and of course the GOAT...the south side's Humboldt Park - adjacent to Bay View HS, home of (JUCO!!!!) Dwight Buycks.
No one can touch Olmsted.
Quote from: The Lens on January 06, 2020, 09:37:41 PM
You want to talk architects? Let's talk Frederick Olmsted! Central Park & Prospect Park, and here in MKE Lake Park, Washington Park and of course the GOAT...the south side's Humboldt Park - adjacent to Bay View HS, home of (JUCO!!!!) Dwight Buycks.
No one can touch Olmsted.
Olmsted did truly incredible work with parks. The whole boulevard system connecting the major parks in Chicago was his project for the world fair. Didn't know he designed MKE's humboldt park as well.
Quote from: The Lens on January 06, 2020, 09:37:41 PM
You want to talk architects? Let's talk Frederick Olmsted! Central Park & Prospect Park, and here in MKE Lake Park, Washington Park and of course the GOAT...the south side's Humboldt Park - adjacent to Bay View HS, home of (JUCO!!!!) Dwight Buycks.
No one can touch Olmsted.
Landscape Architect is not the same as an Architect. FLW will also always get homerism in this state. Not my all-time fav, but can make a strong case for greatest American.
It's all subjective though, Olmsted certainly has an incredible legacy that few can touch.
Thanks, gentlemen. Your interesting discussion on architects might have actually SAVED this thread, one that should have stayed buried in 2014.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 06, 2020, 09:44:50 PM
Landscape Architect is not the same as an Architect. FLW will also always get homerism in this state. Not my all-time fav, but can make a strong case for greatest American.
It's all subjective though, Olmsted certainly has an incredible legacy that few can touch.
The architect of the Matrix doesn't get enough credit.
FLW only drafts the easy pastiche.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 06, 2020, 08:36:19 PM
It's one thing to lose to SC, but to be manhandled by them is another. But go figure.....Frank Wright is a great coach. If Wojo had lost by less than 10 I'd give him some credit. Of course, I can't and won't have to because Wojo doesn't know how to create a defensive minded system that can win multiple tourney games. You guys, my following of detractors, cannot seem to process this. Instead your rebuttal is: Buttttt the stats say Wojo is better now...... Yes, he's average, up from atrocious. All you have to do is watch any game and see that the rotations, help, cutting off of passing lanes aren't run in a crisp manner as a unit. Never have been, never will. A good coach has his system implemented after he gets his guys into the program. Wojo has had that time, but never has developed a system. It's going to take a lot of luck to win multiple tourney games.
I wanted Wojo to succeed but he just doesn't have the intellect to coach great Xs and Os.
Oh for fuk's sake...the game was a two possession game with 7 minutes to play. It was a one point game with under 11 minutes to play...are you suggesting Wojo was lucky the first 75% of the game or Martin was just an idiot? Why not blow us out from the start? Give it a rest.
There are quite a few Wright Houses in Arizona. Taliesin West, of course, but also the Biltmore Hotel, where White Christmas was written. There is one called the Pieper House (given to Anthony Pieper on his quinceanera).
Anyone want to get into it about Urban Planners?
The L'Enfant Plan is overrated.
I know two people who own FLW homes. They are drafty, leak and laid out poorly given the wants and desires of a modern family. But I guess they look nice.
Quote from: PTM on January 07, 2020, 08:56:42 AM
Anyone want to get into it about Urban Planners?
The L'Enfant Plan is overrated.
As far as I'm concerned when it comes to Urban Planners; there's Haussmann, and then the rest. No one will ever come close to touching him either, because no one will ever get full control and unlimited money the way he did. Paris is amazing though.
Agree about the L'Enfant Plan.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 07, 2020, 09:01:19 AM
I know two people who own FLW homes. They are drafty, leak and laid out poorly given the wants and desires of a modern family. But I guess they look nice.
My best friend since childhood grew up in one. It wasn't too drafty or anything. But the historic society made it a huge pain for them to do any updates. I don't like how dark it was.
What's crazy is seeing his earliest works around where I live. They're wood siding and look almost Victorian.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 07, 2020, 09:11:53 AM
As far as I'm concerned when it comes to Urban Planners; there's Haussmann, and then the rest. No one will ever come close to touching him either, because no one will ever get full control and unlimited money the way he did. Paris is amazing though.
Agree about the L'Enfant Plan.
Couldn't agree more. I have a soft spot for Burnham, but that's going to happen.
Quote from: PTM on January 07, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
Couldn't agree more. I have a soft spot for Burnham, but that's going to happen.
He's the best of both worlds! Odd question, but did Burnham design houses as well? I can think of buildings around mke and Chicago of his but don't recall ever hearing him connected to houses
Quote from: PTM on January 07, 2020, 08:56:42 AM
Anyone want to get into it about Urban Planners?
The L'Enfant Plan is overrated.
Here is an interesting tidbit on the early plan for DC.
http://www.boundarystones.org/
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2020, 09:56:59 AM
Here is an interesting tidbit on the early plan for DC.
http://www.boundarystones.org/
I checked out a Boundary Stone in DC a couple years ago, very, very cool.
Quote from: PTM on January 07, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
I checked out a Boundary Stone in DC a couple years ago, very, very cool.
What I didn't know is DC once encompassed Alexandria and Arlington and it was given back to Virginia.
It's rumored that M. M. O'Shaughnessy designed the first one - the guy who, uh, designed the Golden Gate Bridge. Myyy second favorite civil engineer behind Hannskarl Bandel: Madison Square Garden...
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2020, 12:13:11 PM
What I didn't know is DC once encompassed Alexandria and Arlington and it was given back to Virginia.
I think it's in
How the States Got Their Shape book. It wasn't given back, so much as it was taken back by Virginia.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 07, 2020, 09:56:59 AM
Here is an interesting tidbit on the early plan for DC.
http://www.boundarystones.org/
Thanks.
There are 3 FLW in the Milw area that I can think of off the top of my head. The Greek Church on the west side (92nd St), Terrace Ave on the east side near Lake Park, the Adelman House in Fox Point (owned by the parents of Judge Lynn Adelman). There are also some on the near west side, I think, near 25th and Highland. Several there were part of a plan to develop low cost housing There's Taleisen (SP?) West in the Phoenix area. FLW started out in Chicago under his mentor, Louie Sullivan who designed the Garrick Theater (gone) and others. Spring Green,WI is the home of Taliesin and is open to the public.
Olmstead also designed Central Park in NYC. Milwaukee Lake Park is the foundation for a magnificent lake front which Milw has developed over the years to be a local treasure, especially as compared to Chicago which blew its chance.
Quote from: The Lens on January 06, 2020, 09:37:41 PM
You want to talk architects? Let's talk Frederick Olmsted! Central Park & Prospect Park, and here in MKE Lake Park, Washington Park and of course the GOAT...the south side's Humboldt Park - adjacent to Bay View HS, home of (JUCO!!!!) Dwight Buycks.
No one can touch Olmsted.
Your forgetting his two greatest accomplishments, Beardsley Park and Seaside Park in the city where I grew up, Bridgeport, CT (nicknamed The Park City)!
Quote from: harryp on January 07, 2020, 05:00:24 PM
There are 3 FLW in the Milw area that I can think of off the top of my head. The Greek Church on the west side (92nd St), Terrace Ave on the east side near Lake Park, the Adelman House in Fox Point (owned by the parents of Judge Lynn Adelman). There are also some on the near west side, I think, near 25th and Highland. Several there were part of a plan to develop low cost housing There's Taleisen (SP?) West in the Phoenix area. FLW started out in Chicago under his mentor, Louie Sullivan who designed the Garrick Theater (gone) and others. Spring Green,WI is the home of Taliesin and is open to the public.
Olmstead also designed Central Park in NYC. Milwaukee Lake Park is the foundation for a magnificent lake front which Milw has developed over the years to be a local treasure, especially as compared to Chicago which blew its chance.
There's an oft-forgotten string of FLW houses on Burnham Street between 27th and 28th.