MUScoop

In the 'who else do we add' question, the internet consensus seems to be that it's Xavier, Butler, Dayton, Creighton.  That leaves one spot open.  It seems to be between VCU and SLU according to

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/new-years-conference-realignment-faq-big-ten-mountain-west-big-east-and-catholic-7/

and

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/09/report-catholic-7-fox-meeting-today-like-vcu-as-a-member/

VCU. I have more faith in their ability to keep a quality coach in charge and I like that they are a public school, which helps distance us from being the "Catholic league".

SLU. Better academics, better arena, better geographical fit, better institutional fit, better market, better endowment.

VCU is a better UWM with ONE tourney run (literally 1 2nd weekend appearance) and a few appearances from winning in a crappy conference.

SLU because they give me a new city for roadtrips from Milwaukee.

Would rather be voting on Dayton v St Louis with VCU already in (or Gonzaga).

I voted for VCU after a tough debate with myself. VCU won, becasue they are 90 miles from where my brother lives.

I do have one concern about the c7 league.  The B10 got Talib Kweli to do their theme song.  I think for legitimacy reasons, we need to get Freeway (the rapper) or Birdman to do a theme song for the conference.

Or 2 Chainz.

3 best friends from MU live in St. Louis.  ROAD TRIPS.  SLU. 

Both and no Dayton.  I'll take VCU for the selfish road trip reason.

Question: If Shaka Smart was not at VCU, would you feel the same way? If they didn't incredibly make a Final 4, would you feel the same way?

What VCU did was great, but I feel their possibility of long term success is not inspiring.

What if this was all a few years ago and using the same logic we added George Mason? Wouldn't look too great now.

Quote from: chapman on January 12, 2013, 02:49:06 PM
Both and no Dayton.  I'll take VCU for the selfish road trip reason.

Full PTM support here.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 04:16:11 PM
Question: If Shaka Smart was not at VCU, would you feel the same way? If they didn't incredibly make a Final 4, would you feel the same way?

What VCU did was great, but I feel their possibility of long term success is not inspiring.

What if this was all a few years ago and using the same logic we added George Mason? Wouldn't look too great now.

You mean if Jeff Capel were still there?  Or Anthony Grant?  VCU has been good for a decade.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 04:16:11 PM
Question: If Shaka Smart was not at VCU, would you feel the same way? If they didn't incredibly make a Final 4, would you feel the same way?

What VCU did was great, but I feel their possibility of long term success is not inspiring.

What if this was all a few years ago and using the same logic we added George Mason? Wouldn't look too great now.

They have five NCAA tournament appearances under three coaches since 2004 and will go again this year.  Sure we could take away their coach and take away their recent success to evaluate them.  But to be fair we'd have to do the same for Dayton...except they have no recent success, having won one NCAA game since 1990.

VCU and Butler will dominate the A10 in their first seasons, both should come to the new conference in lieu of a generational middling team from Dumbeff, Ohio.

Notwithstanding the vote, I suspect that the Jesuit presidents will support SLU's inclusion.

In case we soon forget, in the ten years prior to joining the big east, MU only went to 4 NCAA tourneys, with one appearance in the final four and one year in the round of 32.  VCU has been better than that run in their last ten.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
You mean if Jeff Capel were still there?  Or Anthony Grant?  VCU has been good for a decade.

Right. It's a mid major with one peak year over a decade of relative success. As you point out its a stepping stone job. I don't mean to diminish what they've done because it is impressive, but its not enough for me to pick them over a fellow Jesuit school.

I'll take SLU and the St Louis market.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
You mean if Jeff Capel were still there?  Or Anthony Grant?  VCU has been good for a decade.

Exactly! People here like to forget that VCU has be very consistent for a long time.

Please tell me what SLU has done in hoops that makes anyone believe they will be better than VCU. SLU is definitely a regional brand, outside of the Midwest many don't know the school. VCU isn't much better but Shaka and the final four definitely help.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 05:06:48 PM
In case we soon forget, in the ten years prior to joining the big east, MU only went to 4 NCAA tourneys, with one appearance in the final four and one year in the round of 32.  VCU has been better than that run in their last ten.

Dayton has not.

I don't necessarily want Dayton, but I'd take them over SLU in a heartbeat.  VCU over both.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 05:18:56 PM
I don't necessarily want Dayton, but I'd take them over SLU in a heartbeat.  VCU over both.

Despite my unreasonable hate for Dayton. I feel like SLU and Dayton are quite the toss-up. Dayton will always be .500 or better and will give us fans to hate, while I think SLU can possibly grow into something special. Can SLU do it?

It also depends on whether the new conference is more worried about academics or not. A big part of finally breaking away was Tulane who has great academics but would have killed the RPI numbers.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to VCU.

But there was a point in the 90s Valparaiso had a series of NCAA runs out of their conference. Would you want Valpo? What about George Mason now?

It's great they have had some recent success, but I NEVER HEARD of VCU until a few years ago. And I'm a well read, educated, well travelled etc etc person. I think that's why I'm biased against VCU and I admit that might not be fair.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 05:32:49 PM
Perhaps I'm being unfair to VCU.

But there was a point in the 90s Valparaiso had a series of NCAA runs out of their conference. Would you want Valpo? What about George Mason now?

It's great they have had some recent success, but I NEVER HEARD of VCU until a few years ago. And I'm a well read, educated, well travelled etc etc person. I think that's why I'm biased against VCU and I admit that might not be fair.

I think the only thing that gives VCU some credit is sustained success over multiple coaching changes, I believe that's the first step to climbing out of the mid-major status. The second step is to pay a successful coach enough to stay. Not sure on the third step, but the fourth step is profit.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
Right. It's a mid major with one peak year over a decade of relative success. As you point out its a stepping stone job. I don't mean to diminish what they've done because it is impressive, but its not enough for me to pick them over a fellow Jesuit school.

I'll take SLU and the St Louis market.

This.

Let's rephrase the question - would everyone be getting wet about VCU w/ out that Final 4? Mind you they didn't deserve to get in (let's be real) anyways, and the fact that that is their ONLY appearance beyond the 1st weekend f***ing ever. So pardon me when I roll my eyes when some of you rave about the amazing success VCU has had winning in a lesser conference than SLU and Dayton have.

Admit it. You are choosing them because of a Final 4 and that's it.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 05:32:49 PM
Perhaps I'm being unfair to VCU.

But there was a point in the 90s Valparaiso had a series of NCAA runs out of their conference. Would you want Valpo? What about George Mason now?

It's great they have had some recent success, but I NEVER HEARD of VCU until a few years ago. And I'm a well read, educated, well travelled etc etc person. I think that's why I'm biased against VCU and I admit that might not be fair.

My thoughts exactly.  With all due respect to VCU, I think going with VCU is a bit short-sighted.  As I see it, SLU gives us total new ground for recruiting (VCU overlaps w Gtown a bit), a much bigger TV market, much better academics with a much bigger endowment, and SLU has alums all over the country, while VCU only has two alumni chapters in major cities outside Richmond.  I'm hopeful that the school presidents are shooting for SLU, but Im worried that the coaches, ADs, and (more importantly) FOX will be pushing for VCU.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 05:06:48 PM
In case we soon forget, in the ten years prior to joining the big east, MU only went to 4 NCAA tourneys, with one appearance in the final four and one year in the round of 32.  VCU has been better than that run in their last ten.

Yeah....in a much much worse conference.

I have no idea what that has to do with tourney success.  MU in the ten years prior to joining the big east won just as many tourney games and went to just as many final fours as VCU has in the last ten years.  Yet we were worthy and they aren't?  If you could direct me to any semblance of tourney success for SLU since the 1950's I'd appreciate it.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 05:32:49 PM
Perhaps I'm being unfair to VCU.

But there was a point in the 90s Valparaiso had a series of NCAA runs out of their conference. Would you want Valpo? What about George Mason now?

It's great they have had some recent success, but I NEVER HEARD of VCU until a few years ago. And I'm a well read, educated, well travelled etc etc person. I think that's why I'm biased against VCU and I admit that might not be fair.

The difference Is that VCU followed up the final four with another tourney appearance last year and this year they are everybody's sleeper pick to make the final four.  This is called sustained success.  Of which SLU has had none since the 1950's.

What I don't understand is that everyone points to SLUs investment in their program as a reason they will make the jump to a top tier program.  VCU has already made that jump!  You're hoping SLU becomes what VCU already is!

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 12, 2013, 06:15:11 PM
  I'm hopeful that the school presidents are shooting for SLU, but Im worried that the coaches, ADs, and (more importantly) FOX will be pushing for VCU.

Fox could care less about quality of basketball. They only want eyeballs on TV sets, and there's a lot more eyeballs in St Louis.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
What I don't understand is that everyone points to SLUs investment in their program as a reason they will make the jump to a top tier program.  VCU has already made that jump!  You're hoping SLU becomes what VCU already is!

I don't think VCU is actually what you think VCU is. Anyways...stalemate!

Quote from: chapman on January 12, 2013, 02:49:06 PM
Both and no Dayton.  I'll take VCU for the selfish road trip reason.

I have nothing against Dayton, but I think the conference would be better with only one team in any state.

Quote from: bilsu on January 12, 2013, 06:38:48 PM
I have nothing against Dayton, but I think the conference would be better with only one team in any state.

+1 PTM.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
What I don't understand is that everyone points to SLUs investment in their program as a reason they will make the jump to a top tier program.  VCU has already made that jump!  You're hoping SLU becomes what VCU already is!

True, to a degree. But the sense is St Louis can get there and stay there. The fear is VCU will fade back to CAA oblivion. The Final 4 was an absolute fluke. Hate to be harsh, but it was. They barely made the tourney!

You make a fair point, though. These discussions are good "problems" for a nascent conference to have.

Answer this question for me, though: Would you rather your son play at SLU or VCU?

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 06:29:10 PM
The difference Is that VCU followed up the final four with another tourney appearance last year and this year they are everybody's sleeper pick to make the final four.  This is called sustained success.  Of which SLU has had none since the 1950's.

UW-Milwaukee followed up their Sweet 16 appearance with a tourney appearance too.  Gmason also followed up its Final Four with a tourney appearance, too.  Where are those programs today?

I think there's no doubt that recently, and maybe even the foreseeable future, VCU is a better bball program than SLU, but is that recent success worth more than institutional similarity, a new market, superior academics, etc.?

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
True, to a degree. But the sense is St Louis can get there and stay there. The fear is VCU will fade back to CAA oblivion. The Final 4 was an absolute fluke. Hate to be harsh, but it was. They barely made the tourney!

You make a fair point, though. These discussions are good "problems" for a nascent conference to have.

Answer this question for me, though: Would you rather your son play at SLU or VCU?

I'd want my kid at whatever school ends up in our new conference, lol.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 12, 2013, 06:47:34 PM
UW-Milwaukee followed up their Sweet 16 appearance with a tourney appearance too.  Gmason also followed up its Final Four with a tourney appearance, too.  Where are those programs today?

I think there's no doubt that recently, and maybe even the foreseeable future, VCU is a better bball program than SLU, but is that recent success worth more than institutional similarity, a new market, superior academics, etc.?

What about this year?  VCU is not fading.  Moving to a new conference would legitimize them just as much as adding SLU would prop them up.  And honestly, the institutional dissimalarity is part of the reason I want them.  I hate pigeon-holing the conference as "the small, private school league".  I understand the TV market point.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 06:53:09 PM
What about this year?  VCU is not fading.  Moving to a new conference would legitimize them just as much as adding SLU would prop them up.  And honestly, the institutional dissimalarity is part of the reason I want them.  I hate pigeon-holing the conference as "the small, private school league".  I understand the TV market point.

Point well-defended.  I like the pigeon-hole of 'the small private school Midwest-East Coast league' so agree to disagree.  But again, the new, bigger TV market AND a whole new recruiting ground (STL/Missouri) is crucial, in my opinion.

Quote from: JakeBarnes on January 12, 2013, 01:51:43 PM
I do have one concern about the c7 league.  The B10 got Talib Kweli to do their theme song.  I think for legitimacy reasons, we need to get Freeway (the rapper) or Birdman to do a theme song for the conference.

I am sure the Vatican Choir could put together a peppy little number.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 12, 2013, 06:13:36 PM
This.

Let's rephrase the question - would everyone be getting wet about VCU w/ out that Final 4? Mind you they didn't deserve to get in (let's be real) anyways, and the fact that that is their ONLY appearance beyond the 1st weekend f***ing ever. So pardon me when I roll my eyes when some of you rave about the amazing success VCU has had winning in a lesser conference than SLU and Dayton have.

Admit it. You are choosing them because of a Final 4 and that's it.

So on what grounds are SLU and Dayton being chosen?  VCU's lone Final Four was in 2011, Dayton's was in 1967, SLU's was never.  VCU has five NCAA appearances in the past decade, Dayton three, SLU one.  The Final Four happened - and Final Fours have enormous benefits for a program, as we have been firsthand, so why strip them of it?  I'm not sure why everyone is so quick to discount VCU's recent successes when Dayton and SLU haven't done anything noteworthy in forever.  Sure VCU's won in a "lesser" conference, but it's better than simply not winning in a better one.

Quote from: chapman on January 12, 2013, 07:22:18 PM
So on what grounds are SLU and Dayton being chosen?  VCU's lone Final Four was in 2011, Dayton's was in 1967, SLU's was never.  VCU has five NCAA appearances in the past decade, Dayton three, SLU one.  The Final Four happened - and Final Fours have enormous benefits for a program, as we have been firsthand, so why strip them of it?  I'm not sure why everyone is so quick to discount VCU's recent successes when Dayton and SLU haven't done anything noteworthy in forever.  Sure VCU's won in a "lesser" conference, but it's better than simply not winning in a better one.

I've listed my reasons for wanting SLU many times. Better academics, better facilities, better financial assets, better geographical fit, better institutional fit, better arena, better market. SLU isn't the #1 choice. It's #5. Don;t try to trick yourself into believing VCU is a Xavier.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
You mean if Jeff Capel were still there?  Or Anthony Grant?  VCU has been good for a decade.

Good points! Some people can't think to far back. Plus, I won't call the CAA a crappy league.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 12, 2013, 08:04:50 PM
I've listed my reasons for wanting SLU many times. Better academics, better facilities, better financial assets, better geographical fit, better institutional fit, better arena, better market. SLU isn't the #1 choice. It's #5. Don;t try to trick yourself into believing VCU is a Xavier.

Better geographical fit?  VCU is pretty much right in the middle of all of the current and potential members.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 08:21:18 PM
Better geographical fit?  VCU is pretty much right in the middle of all of the current and potential members.

Huh? Richmond, Virginia was the capital of the Confederacy.

What C7 or prospective schools are south or east of it? Or even due west?

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 08:30:16 PM
Huh? Richmond, Virginia was the capital of the Confederacy.

What C7 or prospective schools are south or east of it? Or even due west?

Oh man, you got to brush up on your geography.  All the C7 except MU and Depaul are east of Richmond.  Georgetown is only about 100 miles NE of Richmond.  SLU is actually just as south as VCU, and if added over them would be the southernmost school and 2nd westernmost after Creighton.

Added:  to clarify, I was referring to middle only in east/west terms.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 12, 2013, 08:55:55 PM
Oh man, you got to brush up on your geography.  All the C7 except MU and Depaul are east of Richmond.  Georgetown is only about 100 miles NE of Richmond.  SLU is actually just as south as VCU, and if added over them would be the southernmost school and 2nd westernmost after Creighton.

Added:  to clarify, I was referring to middle only in east/west terms.

You mean all of the C7 but MU and DPU are more eastern than VCU. None of them are to the east of Richmond. 

Or south. St Louis is more to the north than Richmond latitudinally. Please refer to a map.

Culturally, Richmond is far, far away from the home cities of the C7.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 10:45:25 PM
You mean all of the C7 but MU and DPU are more eastern than VCU. None of them are to the east of Richmond. 

... DC (Georgetown) is to the east of Richmond.

... Philly (Villanova) is to the east of Richmond.

... South Orange, NJ (Seton Hall) is to the east of Richmond.

... NYC (St. Johns) is to the east of Richmond.

Please refer to a map.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 10:45:25 PM
You mean all of the C7 but MU and DPU are more eastern than VCU. None of them are to the east of Richmond.  

Or south. St Louis is more to the north than Richmond latitudinally. Please refer to a map.

Culturally, Richmond is far, far away from the home cities of the C7.

Are you serious?  All of the C7 but MU and DePaul are east of Richmond.  That's a fact.

St. Louis is about 60 miles or so more north than Richmond, which, as I said, would still make it the southernmost school in the new conference if added over VCU.

I just don't see how SLU is in any way, shape or form a better geographical fit for the conference than VCU.

Don't care about culture, that has nothing to do with geography.

If we're adding Creighton, St. Louis is no longer some vast geographical outlier (not that it would be anyway).  And I could fart in Richmond and you'd smell it in DC, so not sure how they're suddenly so far "west" or "confederate" that they're in California or something.  Neither one is a geographical misfit or a better geographical fit than the other.  And neither is a geographical redundancy like that one school some of us want to not add, which is less desirable.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 08:30:16 PM
Huh? Richmond, Virginia was the capital of the Confederacy.

What C7 or prospective schools are south or east of it? Or even due west?

Richmond is certainly more centrally located than St. Louis is to the rest of the C7.

Richmond to...

Washington DC...107 mi
Philadelphia...242 mi
New York...334 mi
Newark...324 mi
Providence...514 mi
Chicago...798 mi
Milwaukee...889 mi
Average...458 mi

St. Louis to...

Chicago...296 mi
Milwaukee...373 mi
Washington DC...834 mi
Philadelphia...885 mi
Newark...941 mi
New York...951 mi
Providence...1,150 mi
Average...776 mi

What's nice about a team in Richmond is that they are well-placed to be an Eastern member of an East/West division set-up. If we went with St. Louis, that would force us to either break up a natural rival in Dayton and Xavier or push Butler into the East despite them having Dayton and Xavier east of them.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 10:45:25 PM
Culturally, Richmond is far, far away from the home cities of the C7.

It's not 1865.  Richmond probably has more in common with some of the eastern cities than Omaha and Milwaukee.

Quote from: CaptainAwesome on January 12, 2013, 10:53:06 PM
... DC (Georgetown) is to the east of Richmond.

... Philly (Villanova) is to the east of Richmond.

... South Orange, NJ (Seton Hall) is to the east of Richmond.

... NYC (St. Johns) is to the east of Richmond.

Please refer to a map.

Is Ireland "east" of Florida?

What you are trying to say is that those schools/cities are more to the east than Richmond longitudinally. Those schools/cities are northeast of Richmond.

They are not "to the east" of Richmond. If someone asked for directions from Richmond and you told them to "go east" they would not hit DC, NYC, Philly, etc., they would hit the Chesapeke Bay.

That is perhaps the silliest excuse for an argument I have ever heard.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 13, 2013, 08:39:46 AM
Is Ireland "east" of Florida?

What you are trying to say is that those schools/cities are more to the east than Richmond longitudinally. Those schools/cities are northeast of Richmond.

They are not "to the east" of Richmond. If someone asked for directions from Richmond and you told them to "go east" they would not hit DC, NYC, Philly, etc., they would hit the Chesapeke Bay.

I feel kind of embarrassed for you. Your original point was obviously from a longitudinal perspective so now you're trying to shift the game now that you've been shown to be wrong by multiple posters.

Have you considered a future in politics?

Quote from: chapman on January 12, 2013, 11:57:24 PM
If we're adding Creighton, St. Louis is no longer some vast geographical outlier (not that it would be anyway).  And I could fart in Richmond and you'd smell it in DC, so not sure how they're suddenly so far "west" or "confederate" that they're in California or something.  Neither one is a geographical misfit or a better geographical fit than the other.  And neither is a geographical redundancy like that one school some of us want to not add, which is less desirable.

I never said st Louis was a geographical outlier.  I just didn't understand how it is a better geographical fit than VCU, as argued by aughnanure.

Quote from: CaptainAwesome on January 13, 2013, 08:49:43 AM

I feel kind of embarrassed for you. Your original point was obviously from a longitudinal perspective so now you're trying to shift the game now that you've been shown to be wrong by multiple posters.

Have you considered a future in politics?

Actually, you and they are wrong, or at least imprecise.

Do you say that DePaul is East of Marquette? No. You say Marquette is North of DePaul. Even though DePaul is more eastern longitudinally than Marquette.

Yes, I did shift the perspective, figuratively and literally, from discussing north/south and east/west. I understand their point, but the simple matter is those cities/schools are not "to the east" of Richmond. The Chesapeke Bay is to the east of Richmond.

To use their imprecision, all those schools/cities are more north than they are east.

I think this is, to a degree, a matter of semantics. But I sure hope none of you are airplane pilots.

And this is a stupid argument.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 13, 2013, 09:26:33 AM
Yes, I did shift the perspective, figuratively and literally, from discussing north/south and east/west. I understand their point, but the simple matter is those cities/schools are not "to the east" of Richmond. The Chesapeke Bay is to the east of Richmond.

There you go.  Now you're just changing arguments because you know your first point was completely wrong.  If you say "Nothing is farther east than [insert location here]" then you're arguing solely longitudinally.

Now you're just trying to save face because you were so blatantly wrong.  Let's move on.

This argument is stupid mainly because you made such a stupid argument in the first place.  The end.

Right, but according to you, since they are not on the exact same latitudinal line, Marquette is not north of DePaul, rather, they are northwest of DePaul.  If you went north of Chicago, you would run into Lake Michigan, not Milwaukee.  Saying that DePaul is east of Marquette is 100% correct.

Your original question was "What C7 or prospective schools are...east of [VCU]?"  You didn't say "to the east", or "due east".  You said "east of".  Providence, New York, DC, Philly and South Orange are all "east of" Richmond.

Agree this is a silly argument.  Let's move on.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 13, 2013, 08:39:46 AMIs Ireland "east" of Florida?

Yes.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 05:34:23 AM
Richmond is certainly more centrally located than St. Louis is to the rest of the C7.

Richmond to...

Washington DC...107 mi
Philadelphia...242 mi
New York...334 mi
Newark...324 mi
Providence...514 mi
Chicago...798 mi
Milwaukee...889 mi
Average...458 mi

St. Louis to...

Chicago...296 mi
Milwaukee...373 mi
Washington DC...834 mi
Philadelphia...885 mi
Newark...941 mi
New York...951 mi
Providence...1,150 mi
Average...776 mi

What's nice about a team in Richmond is that they are well-placed to be an Eastern member of an East/West division set-up. If we went with St. Louis, that would force us to either break up a natural rival in Dayton and Xavier or push Butler into the East despite them having Dayton and Xavier east of them.

St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

Personal opinion, I think St. Louis fits fine, but if it were me, I'd be deciding between them and Dayton, not them and VCU. And when I look at the profiles of Dayton and St. Louis, it's really not that close. I have a lot more faith in Dayton's ability to sustain a moderately high-level program and to hire good coaches, feel their non-revenue sports are a lot more valuable, and love how much revenue they generate. I know it makes Creighton a bit of a geographic outlier, but not so much that they don't make sense.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

What would Creighton do with its baseball program......

Round and round the membership threads go, when they'll stop nobody knows.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 11:36:46 AM
Personal opinion, I think St. Louis fits fine, but if it were me, I'd be deciding between them and Dayton, not them and VCU. And when I look at the profiles of Dayton and St. Louis, it's really not that close. I have a lot more faith in Dayton's ability to sustain a moderately high-level program and to hire good coaches, feel their non-revenue sports are a lot more valuable, and love how much revenue they generate. I know it makes Creighton a bit of a geographic outlier, but not so much that they don't make sense.

I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 13, 2013, 11:41:23 AM
What would Creighton do with its baseball program......

something

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 12:01:17 PM
I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

SLU doesn't have history, tradition, or recent success. They bring nothing but a TV market, hopes and dreams.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 12:01:17 PM
I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

No, that's not it. VCU has 5 NCAA appearances in the past 9 years. Aside from the Final Four win, they have 3 other NCAA wins (8 total), 2 NIT appearances, and a CBI title. For any mid-major in a one-bid league, 8 post-season tournaments in 9 years is an impressive feat.

More impressive is that they have done it under 3 different coaches. They have been trending upwards for quite awhile but few realized it because they were in the CAA.

In the same time period, St. Louis has 1 NCAA appearance, 1 NCAA win, 1 NIT appearance, and 1 CBI runner-up finish. And they did most of that under Rick Majerus, who as much as I respect the man, didn't do nearly as well at SLU as Smart, Davis, or Capel did at VCU. St. Louis had a nice run in the 1990s, but that's it. Their next coaching hire will more likely be a Brad Soderburgh than a Rick Majerus, and even if it's on par with Rick, I think that his one season with SLU as a tourney team looks like a lot more of a fluke than VCU's one run to the Final Four when you look at the history of both teams over the past decade.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 01:00:45 PM
No, that's not it. VCU has 5 NCAA appearances in the past 9 years. Aside from the Final Four win, they have 3 other NCAA wins (8 total), 2 NIT appearances, and a CBI title. For any mid-major in a one-bid league, 8 post-season tournaments in 9 years is an impressive feat.

More impressive is that they have done it under 3 different coaches. They have been trending upwards for quite awhile but few realized it because they were in the CAA.

In the same time period, St. Louis has 1 NCAA appearance, 1 NCAA win, 1 NIT appearance, and 1 CBI runner-up finish. And they did most of that under Rick Majerus, who as much as I respect the man, didn't do nearly as well at SLU as Smart, Davis, or Capel did at VCU. St. Louis had a nice run in the 1990s, but that's it. Their next coaching hire will more likely be a Brad Soderburgh than a Rick Majerus, and even if it's on par with Rick, I think that his one season with SLU as a tourney team looks like a lot more of a fluke than VCU's one run to the Final Four when you look at the history of both teams over the past decade.

Am I really supposed to be jumping for joy about 5 appearances in a bad conference? Cool. Again, we are making this decision for the future not for the past 9 years. And we should not use a moderate amount of recent success as a reason to keep out a fellow institution that matches the conference's members better at ALL levels and is ready and prepared to make the jump.

You say VCU is trending upwards? You say that simply because of a Final 4. If not for that, we would view them as the same as every other mid-major we would turn our noses at including and you wouldn't be talking about a made-up metric called "trending upwards."  Guess what, SLU is too. They've invested more into their facilities than VCU has, built their own arena that's nearly twice as big, and are one of the biggest Catholics universities in the country.

And lastly no, SLU's tourney appearance is not more flukey than VCU's Final 4. That's just stupid. VCU didn't even deserve to get in the tourney in the 1st place in case you forgot.

1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.

4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 01:47:44 PM
1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.

4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

1. I have never claimed SLU is some sort of great team. I accept who they are and that this is team #5! But if we must - Sweet 16 appearances | VCU: 1 SLU: 2.

2. GW, Winthrop, Siena, Valparaiso were all also "trending upward."

3. You are the one making this "catholic league" thing some sort of issue that will define our league somehow. Not reality.

4. So you'd be impressed by that resume? Wow. Another reason why I don't overvalue resumes as the decision-maker. This is team #5. Not #1. We're choosing b/t 1 team with moderate recent success and a team with less recent success.

5. The average fan isn't watching VCU anyways, stop pretending like they are some sort of draw. When they're good, some people will pay attention more. Just like ANY team.

1. Umm...you do realize that St. Louis had to win ZERO games to make their 2 Sweet 16s, right? The field was only 16 in 1952, so every team that got a bid was in the "Sweet 16", and the field was 23 in 1957 and they didn't play the first round. Not exactly an accomplishment.

2. Don't be obtuse. VCU had more NCAA wins than GW, Winthrop, and Valpo combined over that span, even if you don't include the Final Four run. Some actually mentioned Siena, but all they had were a couple good years under McCaffrey. Shown no ability outside of that to hire a competent coach in the past decade.

3. For Catholics it won't. For some non-Catholics, it will.

4. But it's NOT team #5! You don't deliberately recruit a bad team because it's the last spot. It's like Buzz's recruiting philosophy, you recruit everyone in hopes that they will show the desire to start. I don't want us to bring in teams that don't have the ability to win this league. VCU has shown they can compete at a high level. St. Louis has not.

5. Yes, and they have been good a lot more than St. Louis has, not just over the past 10 years, but over the past 30.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 01:47:44 PM
1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.
4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

I doubt that number 3 matters much. I wonder if any of MU current players are Catholic? The schools may be Catholic, but the student body is not 100% Catholic.

Quote from: bilsu on January 13, 2013, 02:58:44 PM
I doubt that number 3 matters much. I wonder if any of MU current players are Catholic? The schools may be Catholic, but the student body is not 100% Catholic.

I know that. Not so much from a recruiting perspective, but more from a drawing eyes perspective. I think the more the league seems to be about basketball and the less we hear "Catholic 7" and "Catholic League", the better. Especially if we're broadcasting nationally.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 02:57:16 PM
1. Umm...you do realize that St. Louis had to win ZERO games to make their 2 Sweet 16s, right? The field was only 16 in 1952, so every team that got a bid was in the "Sweet 16", and the field was 23 in 1957 and they didn't play the first round. Not exactly an accomplishment.

2. Don't be obtuse. VCU had more NCAA wins than GW, Winthrop, and Valpo combined over that span, even if you don't include the Final Four run. Some actually mentioned Siena, but all they had were a couple good years under McCaffrey. Shown no ability outside of that to hire a competent coach in the past decade.

3. For Catholics it won't. For some non-Catholics, it will.

4. But it's NOT team #5! You don't deliberately recruit a bad team because it's the last spot. It's like Buzz's recruiting philosophy, you recruit everyone in hopes that they will show the desire to start. I don't want us to bring in teams that don't have the ability to win this league. VCU has shown they can compete at a high level. St. Louis has not.

5. Yes, and they have been good a lot more than St. Louis has, not just over the past 10 years, but over the past 30.

1. Yeah. Still counts.

2. VCU, again, has ONE NCAA tourney run that makes up nearly all their NCAA wins. OONNNEEEEEEEE, and that gets you so excited.

3. No, it won't.  

4. If you really don't see that at #5, our picks are getting slim I don't know what to tell you. They are #5 and not every choice is a #1 like Xavier. Also, SLU is neither a bad team nor a bad program. Oh and VCU has only proven they can compete in the CAA. You're making quite a bit of assumptions in grading VCU so highly.

5. Who cares about the last 30 years? Be honest, they've been slightly to moderately better at best and you're acting like VCU has been freaking elite.

1. And somehow, VCU's greater success than SLU doesn't in your eyes.

2. Can you read? I have said numerous times, IF YOU IGNORE THE FINAL FOUR RUN, LEAVE IT OUT, PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, VCU still has more NCAA wins than GW, Winthrop, and Valpo. They have won 3 NCAA games NOT INCLUDING THE FINAL FOUR RUN. So if they didn't make the tournament in the year they made their great run, they would STILL be more valuable than St. Louis or any of the other teams you are mentioning based on recent NCAA success.

3. Agree to disagree. There are parts of this country that are still pretty anti-Catholic.

4. On average, St. Louis is a sub-100 RPI team. When it comes to Selection Sunday, that is classified as a bad loss. On average, VCU is a top-50 RPI team. When it comes to Selection Sunday, that is classified as a good win. What conference you do it in is irrelevant. On the court and in the eyes of the college basketball world over the past decade, St. Louis does not compare to VCU.

5. You don't care about the past 10 years. You don't care about the past 30. Yet you care about 2 Sweet 16 appearances that required absolutely ZERO wins to obtain in over 50 years ago? Duuuuuuuuude......  ::)

Augh has dug in his heels on SLU.  Up to you if you want to keep arguing Brew...I'm just gonna call it a stalemate, move on, and hope that VCU gets added and that SLU doesn't ever sniff the new league.

I think I get it. Augie doesn't like that VCU made the Final Four. And I agree with that. They weren't tourney-worthy that year. They absolutely did not deserve a bid. Jay Bilas was right when he decried their inclusion, but he was dead wrong when he said later "they proved they deserved to be here" as they made it to the Final Four. You don't prove your worth in March. You prove your worth in the months leading up to it. They shouldn't have made the Final Four. That was a NIT team that made a miraculous run.

But the reality is it happened. It made Shaka Smart into a budding star. That's what we need in this league. Young, exciting coaches that can drive their programs to success. And if they leave, we need administrations with a proven track record of making good coaching hires. VCU has both. They have the coach, and if he goes, they have shown the ability to replace him.

Yes, they got to the Final Four in a year they shouldn't have got to the Tourney in the first place. That's absolutely true. But what's done is done. Now is the time to take the teams with proven recent success and legitimate future upside. That is exactly what VCU has, and exactly what SLU does not.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
1. And somehow, VCU's greater success than SLU doesn't in your eyes.

2. Can you read? I have said numerous times, IF YOU IGNORE THE FINAL FOUR RUN, LEAVE IT OUT, PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, VCU still has more NCAA wins than GW, Winthrop, and Valpo. They have won 3 NCAA games NOT INCLUDING THE FINAL FOUR RUN. So if they didn't make the tournament in the year they made their great run, they would STILL be more valuable than St. Louis or any of the other teams you are mentioning based on recent NCAA success.

3. Agree to disagree. There are parts of this country that are still pretty anti-Catholic.

4. On average, St. Louis is a sub-100 RPI team. When it comes to Selection Sunday, that is classified as a bad loss. On average, VCU is a top-50 RPI team. When it comes to Selection Sunday, that is classified as a good win. What conference you do it in is irrelevant. On the court and in the eyes of the college basketball world over the past decade, St. Louis does not compare to VCU.

5. You don't care about the past 10 years. You don't care about the past 30. Yet you care about 2 Sweet 16 appearances that required absolutely ZERO wins to obtain in over 50 years ago? Duuuuuuuuude......  ::)

1. No, in your eyes...recent tourney success is the ONLY thing that should be considered and we're just going to make the assumption that such fluke success will continue into the foreseeable future because "if you're bad now, you'll be bad in perpetuity and if you're good now you'll be good in perpetuity" thinking. They have not built up that brand needed to survive one bad coaching hire.

2. And that, again, is the ONLY thing that you consider in deciding. The "they won more the most recently than any other teams I can think of" analysis.

3. It's not an issue if we don't make it an issue. Some of you seem hell-bent on making it one.

4. Oh, so now we're making 50 year decisions based on who helps our recent RPI numbers the most?

5. And all YOU care about it one year. I just wish some of you would admit that. Play around with appearances all you want, but that's is what it is coming down to.

6. I like such organized arguments.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 13, 2013, 03:38:19 PM
Augh has dug in his heels on SLU.  Up to you if you want to keep arguing Brew...I'm just gonna call it a stalemate, move on, and hope that VCU gets added and that SLU doesn't ever sniff the new league.

More anti-VCU than pro-SLU. I'd simply don't think VCU's recent moderate success is enough to make them the lone southeastern, large public state university in a market that is likely covered by Georgetown.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 03:49:54 PM
I think I get it. Augie doesn't like that VCU made the Final Four. And I agree with that. They weren't tourney-worthy that year. They absolutely did not deserve a bid. Jay Bilas was right when he decried their inclusion, but he was dead wrong when he said later "they proved they deserved to be here" as they made it to the Final Four. You don't prove your worth in March. You prove your worth in the months leading up to it. They shouldn't have made the Final Four. That was a NIT team that made a miraculous run.

But the reality is it happened. It made Shaka Smart into a budding star. That's what we need in this league. Young, exciting coaches that can drive their programs to success. And if they leave, we need administrations with a proven track record of making good coaching hires. VCU has both. They have the coach, and if he goes, they have shown the ability to replace him.

Yes, they got to the Final Four in a year they shouldn't have got to the Tourney in the first place. That's absolutely true. But what's done is done. Now is the time to take the teams with proven recent success and legitimate future upside. That is exactly what VCU has, and exactly what SLU does not.

This is what scares me. Let's make 50+ year decisions based on who the current coaches are. It is very easy to get a coaching decision wrong, I think we understand that now.

But I get that point for sustained success, but I think it removes the fact that they were competing in a much less competitive conference. Not sure what it says when the 2 previous coaches haven't shown much on a higher stage.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 03:49:54 PM
But the reality is it happened. It made Shaka Smart into a budding star. That's what we need in this league. Young, exciting coaches that can drive their programs to success. And if they leave, we need administrations with a proven track record of making good coaching hires. VCU has both. They have the coach, and if he goes, they have shown the ability to replace him.

Couple points here.  The athletic director that hired both Grant and Smart is gone.  We have no idea if the current guy would be able to continue that trend.

Also, IMO this is exactly the wrong reason to include a school in a conference.  I wouldn't mind VCU in the conference for a number of reasons, most important of which are an institutional commitment to investing into the program and a shared view of where the conference should go.  "Shaka Smart is a good, young coach" should never be a reason.

Augh, can you name another school that was not good, decided to invest a lot money into the program and then suddenly got good?  I'd take that argument more seriously if you could produce an example of that happening.  Because most of your arguments for SLU involve new facilities, bigger endowment, etc.  Is there any proof that any of that stuff matters?  Cause historically and recently, SLU is straight up bad at basketball and I find it hard to believe that simply wanting to turn things around can overcome 60 years of mediocrity.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 13, 2013, 04:18:24 PM
Augh, can you name another school that was not good, decided to invest a lot money into the program and then suddenly got good?  I'd take that argument more seriously if you could produce an example of that happening.  Because most of your arguments for SLU involve new facilities, bigger endowment, etc.  Is there any proof that any of that stuff matters?  Cause historically and recently, SLU is straight up bad at basketball and I find it hard to believe that simply wanting to turn things around can overcome 60 years of mediocrity.

Xavier in the MCC. Really had no success until the 80s. Facilities are kind of a recent arms race (just like how pro teams need new arenas every 15 freakin' yrs now), so hard to compare on that ground alone, but generally making basketball a higher priority has worked.

In this day-and-age money matters more that ever (i.e. coach and asst coach salary, facilities, arena, travelling/recruiting expenses) and can thus close that gap quicker. I mean, look what Majerus did to that program relatively quickly - that counts as investing.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 13, 2013, 04:18:24 PM
Augh, can you name another school that was not good, decided to invest a lot money into the program and then suddenly got good?  I'd take that argument more seriously if you could produce an example of that happening.  Because most of your arguments for SLU involve new facilities, bigger endowment, etc.  Is there any proof that any of that stuff matters?  Cause historically and recently, SLU is straight up bad at basketball and I find it hard to believe that simply wanting to turn things around can overcome 60 years of mediocrity.

Gonzaga...Xavier...George Mason...Butler...

There are many examples.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 13, 2013, 11:56:49 AM
Round and round the membership threads go, when they'll stop nobody knows.

At least this one has some enumerated lists!

So the fact that VCU invests heavily in their coaches and is building a new basketball practice facility bodes well for their continued success, no?

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 13, 2013, 05:04:49 PM
So the fact that VCU invests heavily in their coaches and is building a new basketball practice facility bodes well for their continued success, no?

Yes it does.  It isn't a guaranty, but it most certainly helps. Which I have never disputed.

Wasn't directed at you sultan, more at Augie.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 13, 2013, 04:36:56 PM

Gonzaga...Xavier...George Mason...Butler...

There are many examples.

...VCU...their success largely has all come since they built a new gym and invested in the program in 1999.

But I like the list idea as well...keeps it easy to follow ;)

1. I want schools with upside, and I do feel that recent success is important because this league's strength long-term will largely rely on how strong it is to start. I feel we are better establishing ourselves quickly than waiting for programs to mature.

2. Beaten to death and covered elsewhere, so I'm going to address the geographic outlier argument. You characterize VCU as the "lone southeastern...university". They are 100 miles from DC. They are over 300 miles closer to the C7 on average than SLU is. In addition, in a league with likely two 6-team divisions, VCU would fit in the east much better than Butler.

3. Beaten to death, so how about why do you think SLU can survive a bad hire better than VCU? Soderbergh was poor there. Majerus did okay, but people remember his one NCAA season far more than the 4 fairly mediocre seasons he had before that. Winning there seems to be a very difficult task.

4. How many conferences have been going for 50 years? We need to get this thing off and running before we can think 5 decades down the road. And VCU is much better suited to propel the entire league forward than SLU is. They fit better geographically, they have shown a longer and more consistent dedication to the success of their program, and they are more prepared to compete with the rest of the league from the start. I'm far more concerned with the next 5 seasons than I am seasons 45-50. Success now will help us get to 50 years. Taking bad teams off the start will weaken the league from the start.

5. If it was one year, I'd be advocating just as much for George Mason. I would much rather have VCU.

6. Definitely :)

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 05:24:53 PM

2. Beaten to death and covered elsewhere, so I'm going to address the geographic outlier argument. You characterize VCU as the "lone southeastern...university". They are 100 miles from DC. They are over 300 miles closer to the C7 on average than SLU is. In addition, in a league with likely two 6-team divisions, VCU would fit in the east much better than Butler.

I hope we don't have divisions. I lke getting home and homes with the east coast teams so I can make it to more games.

One concern I have with VCU is the market. VA sport coverage, at the college level is dominated by Virginia and Virginia Tech. The new conference may have a hard time gaining any traction down there. Richmond is ACC country.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 11:36:46 AM
Personal opinion, I think St. Louis fits fine, but if it were me, I'd be deciding between them and Dayton, not them and VCU. And when I look at the profiles of Dayton and St. Louis, it's really not that close. I have a lot more faith in Dayton's ability to sustain a moderately high-level program and to hire good coaches

This.

Dayton is a long time foe.  Not for you youngsters. We add Dayton, watch out.  The trolls at x.com know it.  They fear playing UD every year.

SLU honors Hank, and our Jesuit tradition.

Make it so.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 13, 2013, 05:24:53 PM
...VCU...their success largely has all come since they built a new gym and invested in the program in 1999.

But I like the list idea as well...keeps it easy to follow ;)

1. I want schools with upside, and I do feel that recent success is important because this league's strength long-term will largely rely on how strong it is to start. I feel we are better establishing ourselves quickly than waiting for programs to mature.

2. Beaten to death and covered elsewhere, so I'm going to address the geographic outlier argument. You characterize VCU as the "lone southeastern...university". They are 100 miles from DC. They are over 300 miles closer to the C7 on average than SLU is. In addition, in a league with likely two 6-team divisions, VCU would fit in the east much better than Butler.

3. Beaten to death, so how about why do you think SLU can survive a bad hire better than VCU? Soderbergh was poor there. Majerus did okay, but people remember his one NCAA season far more than the 4 fairly mediocre seasons he had before that. Winning there seems to be a very difficult task.

4. How many conferences have been going for 50 years? We need to get this thing off and running before we can think 5 decades down the road. And VCU is much better suited to propel the entire league forward than SLU is. They fit better geographically, they have shown a longer and more consistent dedication to the success of their program, and they are more prepared to compete with the rest of the league from the start. I'm far more concerned with the next 5 seasons than I am seasons 45-50. Success now will help us get to 50 years. Taking bad teams off the start will weaken the league from the start.

5. If it was one year, I'd be advocating just as much for George Mason. I would much rather have VCU.

6. Definitely :)

I get it. I simply value St. Louis' upside and having one of the larger and best known Catholic universities in the country. With Xavier, Creighton, and Butler we can afford a long-term investment. I do believe the conference is about more than just basketball. Is basketball the driving factor? Sure. But academics and being the right group of universities matters - I think the B1G and  Pac-12 understand that dynamic.

I don't the idea of leaving out a SLU in favor of a large state public university. Look, have they not had a lot of success? Sure, but they are not Duquesne, Drake or Detroit either. Didn't take too long for Majerus to get that thing up and going after they began caring. They have a big-time arena, have invested in their facilities and serve as a better geographic and rival fit for my favorite team,  Marquette - so there is a little bit of bias.

VCU in a 16 team league, I'd be fine. There I said it. But I still prefer SLU, Dayton, and probably even Richmond over them

Anyways, a couple of notes:

#1 I like St. Louis' upside more and don't see this inevitable rise of VCU and Shaka.

#2 was more about this fit, than the "southeastern" geographic designation. Was trying to point out it's distinctiveness.

#3 They can't. But they can support and help the program in many more ways (private jet recruiting trips, new facilities to sell recruits on, marketing, asst coach salary).

#4  I think you're asking a lot of coach to change a program around in only a few years. If it's so hard to win, then you have to give his efforts time to mature. Isn't that why we have the 5 year rule? And he was on his way to passing with flying colors.

#5 I guess I just don't value the "appearances" metric as much in lesser conferences.

By the way, is this the closest poll in Scoop history?

94 to 91...wow

Quote from: real chili 83 on January 13, 2013, 06:01:21 PM
This.

Dayton is a long time foe.  Not for you youngsters. We add Dayton, watch out.  The trolls at x.com know it.  They fear playing UD every year.

SLU honors Hank, and our Jesuit tradition.

Make it so.

Majerus was just SLU's coach.

Agree on Dayton. Youngsters don't remember the independent days when MU, ND, DePaul, Dayton would go at it like it was a cross town parish battle. It was great. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 11:24:43 PM
I don't the idea of leaving out a SLU in favor of a large state public university.

Serious Question:  Are you against keeping UConn and Cincy?  I'm on the fence personally, but I see little downside if this scenario plays out, as rumored (although also supposedly squashed by UConn's AD).  But there is certainly something to be said for taking a clean break and removing yourself completely from any future defections.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 09:23:41 AM
Serious Question:  Are you against keeping UConn and Cincy?  I'm on the fence personally, but I see little downside if this scenario plays out, as rumored (although also supposedly squashed by UConn's AD).  But there is certainly something to be said for taking a clean break and removing yourself completely from any future defections.

Honestly, I would sooner take Memphis or Temple over UConn and Cincy. And I don't want any of the four, but I just feel UConn and Cincy are going to eventually beg their way into the ACC or Big 12, while Memphis and Temple reaching the old Big East is their ceiling.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 09:23:41 AM
Serious Question:  Are you against keeping UConn and Cincy?  I'm on the fence personally, but I see little downside if this scenario plays out, as rumored (although also supposedly squashed by UConn's AD).  But there is certainly something to be said for taking a clean break and removing yourself completely from any future defections.

Yes. Seeing them eventually leave will only reinforce to the public the league's inferiority...especially if they are winning the league.

But you don't see the addition of SLU as reinforcing to the public the league's inferiority?  Couldn't resist...

That's a good point on them winning the league.  I do think both those teams would jump on the first chance to head to a football conference, and it would suck to potentially have their names in the record books.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 13, 2013, 04:18:24 PM
Augh, can you name another school that was not good, decided to invest a lot money into the program and then suddenly got good? 

UNLV.
Went from a non D-I program to the Final Four in a span of seven years.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 11:41:35 AM
But you don't see the addition of SLU as reinforcing to the public the league's inferiority?  Couldn't resist...

That's a good point on them winning the league.  I do think both those teams would jump on the first chance to head to a football conference, and it would suck to potentially have their names in the record books.

But I actually don't think SLU would reinforce that right now.. SLU's playing well, have gotten a lot of recent positive publicity from the Majerus death, and until yesterday against Temple hadn't lost since. People will find their parting shots at this new conference one way or another. We'll have to earn our respect on the court and what we need is a 1985 again with a bunch of us making deep runs in the tourney if not one winning the whole thing (I'm thinking St John's, Marquette and Xavier make a run to the Elite 8, 2 in the Final 4 kind of thing).

The only football schools we should consider are Notre Dame and BYU. All others must drop football to at least FCS (looking at you Memphis).

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 11:54:11 AM
But I actually don't think SLU would reinforce that right now.. SLU's playing well, have gotten a lot of recent positive publicity from the Majerus death, and until yesterday against Temple hadn't lost since. People will find their parting shots at this new conference one way or another. We'll have to earn our respect on the court and what we need is a 1985 again with a bunch of us making deep runs in the tourney if not one winning the whole thing.

The only football schools we should consider are Notre Dame and BYU. All others must drop football to at least FCS (looking at you Memphis).

The chance that any school will drop football - or even drop to FCS - to help its basketball program is roughly "who the f--- are you kidding?"

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 11:54:11 AM
The only football schools we should consider are Notre Dame and BYU. All others must drop football to at least FCS (looking at you Memphis).

Hell, Temple too...

Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2013, 11:59:36 AM
The chance that any school will drop football - or even drop to FCS - to help its basketball program is roughly "who the f--- are you kidding?"

Duh.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 12:08:00 PM
Duh.

And yet you suggested it.

Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2013, 12:10:26 PM
And yet you suggested it.

I was responding to someone else's suggestion to include football schools.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 04:16:11 PM
Question: If Shaka Smart was not at VCU, would you feel the same way? If they didn't incredibly make a Final 4, would you feel the same way?

What VCU did was great, but I feel their possibility of long term success is not inspiring.

What if this was all a few years ago and using the same logic we added George Mason? Wouldn't look too great now.

Smart compared to who exactly at SLU?  Winner:  VCU
VCU's tourney results vs. SLU?  Winner:  VCU (SLU does nothing, ever)

Besides, St. Louis sucks.

Quote from: Avenue Commons on January 12, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
Right. It's a mid major with one peak year over a decade of relative success. As you point out its a stepping stone job. I don't mean to diminish what they've done because it is impressive, but its not enough for me to pick them over a fellow Jesuit school.

I'll take SLU and the St Louis market.

SLU doesn't even bring that decade of relative success.  So what's your point in comparing that?

The St. Louis market is garbage.  Downstate IL rednecks, even worse Missour-ah rednecks, and the city of St. Louis itself offers very little in any form.  Well, it's inexpensive, I guess.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 13, 2013, 12:01:17 PM
I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

And so what?  Neither Dayton nor SLU have history or tradition any better than VCU.
SLU gives no reason to think that they're setup for any greater long-term success than either Dayton or VCU, and probably less success and less stability because of Biondi.

The whole problem with this thread is it should have been SLU vs. Richmond, since Richmond is the better long term bet from the city of Richmond.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 14, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
The whole problem with this thread is it should have been SLU vs. Richmond, since Richmond is the better long term bet from the city of Richmond.

This.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 14, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
The whole problem with this thread is it should have been SLU vs. Richmond, since Richmond is the better long term bet from the city of Richmond.

This. For a program like VCU who is supposedly head-and-shoulders above every other candidate to be barely beating supposed doormat SLU doesn't speak highly of the Rams' credentials.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about because VCU hasn't played St. Louis yet this year.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 02:58:46 PM
I'm not even sure what you're talking about because VCU hasn't played St. Louis yet this year.

In the poll on who should be the 12th member.

I see.  How does that argument help SLU in any way, shape or form?  They're losing the poll.  So clearly more people think VCU's credentials are better than SLU's.  You know, if you care what a poll on a message board says.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 03:12:29 PM
I see.  How does that argument help SLU in any way, shape or form?  They're losing the poll.

I believe the point is that if VCU is this supposed head-and-shoulders above the rest candidate, then the fact that they're barely winning a poll on a college basketball message board is not a good sign of this claim and probably refutes the notion that they are perceived to be such a valuable brand/program.

Perception is reality basically. I think many people have been overstating how sexy Shaka and VCU are to the casual college basketball fan.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 03:16:56 PM
Perception is reality basically. I think many people have been overstating how sexy Shaka and VCU are to the casual college basketball fan.

I would question whether this board is representative of the casual college basketball fan though.  We're mainly midwesterners with connections to a Jesuit university that used to play in the same conference as SLU, and who are extremely familiar with SLU's previous coach.  I would expect SLU to rate much higher among us than the casual fans.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 14, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
The whole problem with this thread is it should have been SLU vs. Richmond, since Richmond is the better long term bet from the city of Richmond.

VCU fan here.  It's humbling that we're even being considered to join you guys in a premier basketball conference, but I just had to interject.  For the sake of precision, the University of New Jersey-Henrico is not within the city limits of Richmond.  And I'm sure even they would tell you that VCU owns this town (both in a literal and media market sense).

Quote from: Litehouse on January 14, 2013, 03:32:41 PM
I would question whether this board is representative of the casual college basketball fan though.  We're mainly midwesterners with connections to a Jesuit university that used to play in the same conference as SLU, and who are extremely familiar with SLU's previous coach.  I would expect SLU to rate much higher among us than the casual fans.

Truth.

Quote from: umwram on January 14, 2013, 03:35:31 PM
VCU fan here.  It's humbling that we're even being considered to join you guys in a premier basketball conference, but I just had to interject.  For the sake of precision, the University of New Jersey-Henrico is not within the city limits of Richmond.  And I'm sure even they would tell you that VCU owns this town (both in a literal and media market sense).

Totally not getting this reference.

Quote from: umwram on January 14, 2013, 03:35:31 PM
VCU fan here.  It's humbling that we're even being considered to join you guys in a premier basketball conference, but I just had to interject.  For the sake of precision, the University of New Jersey-Henrico is not within the city limits of Richmond.  And I'm sure even they would tell you that VCU owns this town (both in a literal and media market sense).

Welcome.    Thanks for that tidbit.   What are the rumors and innuendo among VCU devotees?    Does your fanbase want to join the BEast Breakaway 7?   Is Shaka a long-termer?    By the way, you guys look to be playing solid ball again this year.  

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Totally not getting this reference.

The University of Richmond actually is located outside the city limits, in Henrico County.

Why the New Jersey thing then?

Quote from: Litehouse on January 14, 2013, 03:32:41 PM
I would question whether this board is representative of the casual college basketball fan though.  We're mainly midwesterners with connections to a Jesuit university that used to play in the same conference as SLU, and who are extremely familiar with SLU's previous coach.  I would expect SLU to rate much higher among us than the casual fans.

I agree with this.

Just saying the difference between us and Mason is that we are capatilizing on our Final Four success unlike Mason who didnt do much to capatalize on their success.... And I really do feel like Shaka will stay for a longer time since the program has been going up... And I love Marquette actually and might even apply there so I hope VCU gets in on conference with u guys.... Also i feel like we are way more attractive than St. Louis just saying... Fox likes VCU I hope  ;D ;D

Just wondering is the final spot just between VCU and St.Louis..... Is Dayton automatically in the new C7 conference

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Just wondering is the final spot just between VCU and St.Louis..... Is Dayton automatically in the new C7 conference

Not if this board has its way.  But really no one knows.

So I posted this over on the Providence boards and I think it belongs here as well. There's a lot of misconception on this board about VCU's basketball program so I thought I'd give you all a VCU 101 guide...

While we've been good for the last 10 years, we were also a very bigtime basketball program in the 80s too.

For example, did you know that VCU highest seen in the tournament was a #2 seed? Did you know that Louisville and VCU were in the same conference in the early 90s?


VCU Basketball Program 101

We are the largest school in the State of Virginia with over 31k students (grad included). We play in a multi-use arena named the Verizon Wireless Arena at the Siegel Center that holds around 7,700 people. We hold the 11th-highest home court winning percentage in Division I basketball with a winning percentage of 85.79 and a record of 165-27.
We're currently on a 28 consecutive home game sell out streak, 5th longest in the nation behind Duke, Kansas, Michigan State and Gonzaga. We've also already sold out the rest of the 2012-13 season. We have the best winning percentage in the State of Virginia over the last 12 years. Tech or UVA don't come close. A large majority of our students come from Northern VA, so we have a pretty large alumni base in the DC area as well as in Richmond. We're also in the process of building a brand new 12+ million dollar state of the art basketball practice facility.

VCU Conference History:
We originally played in the Sun Belt conference in the early years with teams like South Alabama, Western Kentucky, UAB, Jacksonville, Charlotte, ect. In 1991 we switched to the Metro Conference that included teams such as Louisville, Virginia Tech, Southern Miss, ect. When conference realignment occurred in 1995,the Metro merged with the Great Midwest Conference to form Conference USA. Unfortunately, we were not invited to this new conference and had to join the CAA. We were a top notch program back then and it took us nearly a decade to recover and get us back to relevancy.

NCAA Tournament History:
1979-80: We were a 12 seed and lost to Iowa in the first round
1980-81: We were a 5th seed and got to the second round were we lost to #4 Tennessee by 2
1982-83: We were a 5th seed and got to the second round were we lost to #4 Georgia by 2
1983-84: We were a 6th seed and lost to #3 Syracuse in the second round
1984-85 We were a 2 seed, the highest seed we've ever had. We were upset by #7 Alabama in the second round by 4
1995-96: Were a 12 seed and lost to Mississippi State in the first round
2003-04: Were a 13 seed and played #4 Wake Forest lead by Chris Paul in the first round. We lost by 1 point.
2006-07: We beat Duke in the first round on an Eric Maynor jumper with 1.7 seconds left known as the "Dagger". We lost to #3 Pitt in the second round in overtime.
2008-09: We lost to UCLA by 1 in the first round. We were an 11th seed, UCLA a #6 seed.
2010-2011: Final Four run
2011-2012: Beat #5 seed Wichita State in the first round and lost to Indiana in the second round by 2

RPI #s:
VCU has finished in the top 100 of the RPI every season and never lower than 89 over the last 10 seasons.

2002-03: 86
2003-04: 54
2004-05: 89
2005-06: 81
2006-07: 42
2007-08: 54
2008-09: 50
2009-10: 66
2010-11: 49
2011-12: 38

Average RPI in the Capel era: 77.5
Average RPI in the Grant era: 48.7
Average RPI in the Smart era: 51

Overall average RPI over the last 10 seasons: 60.9

Notable Players:
Calvin Duncan - drafted in the 1985 NBA Draft , 2nd round, the 30th overall pick
Gerald Henderson – played 13 years in the NBA. His son, Gerald Henderson Jr, played for Duke and was drafted 12th overall in 2009
Rolando Lamb – 64th overall pick in 1985. His son, Jeremy Lamb, played for UCONN and was the 12th overall pick in the 2012 draft
Eric Maynor – 20th pick in the 2009 draft
Larry Sanders – 15th pick in the 2010 draft

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Just wondering is the final spot just between VCU and St.Louis..... Is Dayton automatically in the new C7 conference

that seems to be the overwhelming assumption. nothing has actually been annouced yet, but that's what has been leaked from their meetings.

IN: Dayton, Creighton, X and Butler, then either VCU or SLU.

the arguments for VCU are all basketball related, the arguments for SLU are more about tv markets/jesuit school/etc...

most hoops fans want VCU over Dayton and SLU, but a group of Catholic school presidents will probably decide otherwise.

If its us and the Slu for the last spot I really like our chances just bc we have a bigger brand than them.... I hope I am right though

Thanks, DCRAM

Quote from: Bocephys on January 14, 2013, 04:22:50 PM
Not if this board has its way.  But really no one knows.

VCU has more votes on this page lmao haha ;D

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 03:46:05 PM
Welcome.    Thanks for that tidbit.   What are the rumors and innuendo among VCU devotees?    Does your fanbase want to join the BEast Breakaway 7?   Is Shaka a long-termer?    By the way, you guys look to be playing solid ball again this year.  

Thanks!  First time in the Top 25 since 1985 (back when it was just the Top 20), so today was a good day for us all.  

As a fanbase, I would say we definitely want to join you guys, especially if we join alongside Xavier and more importantly, Butler (who the more passionate fans feel a sense of camaraderie with).  Though some in our fanbase would like to see VCU add football, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon, so our goal is now and has always been to play the best basketball possible.  Joining the A-10 did a lot to further that goal, and as I see it joining a 12 team C7 (I don't think Fox will let you stay at 10) would work wonders for it at well.  Shaka has always said that he loves it as VCU in part because the administration shares his goals of advancing us as far as possible in men's basketball.  And I mean it when I say this it is humbling even being mentioned - a year ago this time we were still in the CAA!

As for the UNJ-H - sorry.  I forgot not everyone knows the intricacies of our rivalry with our brothers in the county.  Henrico is the county adjacent to Richmond City where the other University resides, and since the majority of their student body is composed of New Jerseyans or New Yorkers looking to drag their carpet bags south, we decided on a more appropriate name than University of the City Adjacent to Campus.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 04:27:06 PM
VCU has more votes on this page lmao haha ;D

I was referring to the Dayton piece, but I did not make that clear anywhere except my head.  Sorry about that.

Just saying I dont want football at all

Quote from: Bocephys on January 14, 2013, 04:35:32 PM
I was referring to the Dayton piece, but I did not make that clear anywhere except my head.  Sorry about that.

Ha you are good but man will they annouce C7 members soon... or will it be at the end of the season

Quote from: DCRAM on January 14, 2013, 04:23:45 PM
We're also in the process of building a brand new 12+ million dollar state of the art basketball practice facility.

I don't mean to nit-pick (even though I am) and I really appreciate all the rest of the info, but can it really be "state of the art" if you're only spending $12M on it?  The Al was over $30M and that was 10 years ago.  I just feel like I've just seen this "state of the art practice facility" thing thrown around way too much lately.

Honest question though, what's your arena situation like?  I see it seats 7,700, but is it on-campus?  Why would you spend that much on a practice facility and not put it toward an entire arena with a higher capacity?

Quote from: Litehouse on January 14, 2013, 04:48:34 PM
I don't mean to nit-pick (even though I am) and I really appreciate all the rest of the info, but can it really be "state of the art" if you're only spending $12M on it?  The Al was over $30M and that was 10 years ago.  I just feel like I've just seen this "state of the art practice facility" thing thrown around way too much lately.

Honest question though, what's your arena situation like?  I see it seats 7,700, but is it on-campus?  Why would you spend that much on a practice facility and not put it toward an entire arena with a higher capacity?

In all fairness, the Al is a lot more than a practice facility, in that it also features a 4,000-seat arena, houses the entire athletic department, a weight room, an academic center, etc.
I'd bet you can get a really, really nice practice facility for $12 million.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Just wondering is the final spot just between VCU and St.Louis..... Is Dayton automatically in the new C7 conference

They should be if we're not going west (Gonzaga). They've worked hard and care deeply about their basketball - and that's important in this new league. I don't see how we can't include a team that fills a 13,000+ seat arena for every game.

They're never bad either, just haven't hit that lucky(ish) run of success to build on in a while.

Quote from: umwram on January 14, 2013, 04:33:03 PM
As a fanbase, I would say we definitely want to join you guys, especially if we join alongside Xavier and more importantly, Butler (who the more passionate fans feel a sense of camaraderie with).  Though some in our fanbase would like to see VCU add football, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon, so our goal is now and has always been to play the best basketball possible.  Joining the A-10 did a lot to further that goal, and as I see it joining a 12 team C7 (I don't think Fox will let you stay at 10) would work wonders for it at well.  Shaka has always said that he loves it as VCU in part because the administration shares his goals of advancing us as far as possible in men's basketball.  And I mean it when I say this it is humbling even being mentioned - a year ago this time we were still in the CAA!

Why is this? You guys have never been in the same conference or anything.

Quote from: umwram on January 14, 2013, 04:33:03 PM
As for the UNJ-H - sorry.  I forgot not everyone knows the intricacies of our rivalry with our brothers in the county.  Henrico is the county adjacent to Richmond City where the other University resides, and since the majority of their student body is composed of New Jerseyans or New Yorkers looking to drag their carpet bags south, we decided on a more appropriate name than University of the City Adjacent to Campus.

Gotcha. New Jerseyans are everywhere....

Quote from: JTBMU7 on January 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
most hoops fans want VCU over Dayton and SLU, but a group of Catholic school presidents will probably decide otherwise.

By 2 votes only (currently) though.

I would guess it is because they are both programs that have recently reached the final 4 after going through a long period being considered mid-major.

Quote from: DCRAM on January 14, 2013, 04:23:45 PM
VCU Conference History:
We originally played in the Sun Belt conference in the early years with teams like South Alabama, Western Kentucky, UAB, Jacksonville, Charlotte, ect. In 1991 we switched to the Metro Conference that included teams such as Louisville, Virginia Tech, Southern Miss, ect. When conference realignment occurred in 1995,the Metro merged with the Great Midwest Conference to form Conference USA. Unfortunately, we were not invited to this new conference and had to join the CAA. We were a top notch program back then and it took us nearly a decade to recover and get us back to relevancy.

You're embellishing a bit here.

If they have a problem with Richmond being a bunch of private school kids from someplace else, they're probably not going to get along that well with the rest of us.

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 05:02:32 PM
I would guess it is because they are both programs that have recently reached the final 4 after going through a long period being considered mid-major.

Still in it. ESPN has deduced and confined the term "major" to a football and BCS defined designation. Unfortunately.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
Still in it. ESPN has deduced and confined the term "major" to a football and BCS defined designation. Unfortunately.

And ESPN is God.
A stupid, loud, Tim Tebow-loving God.

Quote from: Litehouse on January 14, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
If they have a problem with Richmond being a bunch of private school kids from someplace else, they're probably not going to get along that well with the rest of us.

It's more of a cross-city rival than anything.

Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2013, 05:18:23 PM
And ESPN is God.
A stupid, loud, Tim Tebow-loving God.

Agreed, and unfortunately is the main portal to sports for 98% of the American population.

Quote from: MUMonster03 on January 13, 2013, 05:54:21 PM
I hope we don't have divisions. I lke getting home and homes with the east coast teams so I can make it to more games.

One concern I have with VCU is the market. VA sport coverage, at the college level is dominated by Virginia and Virginia Tech. The new conference may have a hard time gaining any traction down there. Richmond is ACC country.

Hi there. VCU alum here, hope you guys don't mind me chiming in. I'm not going to tell you how awesome and incredible VCU is, except to say you just have to experience it for yourself.

Let's talk TV ratings for a moment. SLU averages around a 1.0 TV rating in their home market. Last week VCU pulled in a 7.7 overnight against Dayton. If you're looking at market potential, then SLU is the better choice. But that's a risk trying to get a market that's already caught up in Mizzou and Illinois to buy into the program.

As it stands, VCU is outperforming SLU in their home market by about 35,000 households a game. That's because VCU owns the Richmond market. Not Virginia Tech or Virginia or Richmond. It's not even close. We sold out the entire season in August, which will take us to 35 consecutive sellouts by March. There are six Fortune 500 companies in RVA, and major corporate money is the reason why we're about to build a practice facility that's third only to Oklahoma State or Kentucky. An expansion on the Siegel Center is not far on the Horizon (pun intended).

All that being said, SLU is a great university with a very good program with a commitment to high level basketball. I'm sure they aren't going away soon, either.

We'd like to be in a top-tier basketball conference, whether that's the A10 with Georgetown, Marquette, etc or the new Big East. Either way, best of luck to your program.

I think SLU is pretty good at soccer as well? Realize this is mainly about basketball TV revenue but how is VCU in the other sports? Do they have Lacrosse? Seems as though Lacrosse is a sport nearly all of the schools have and may be an avenue in lieu of Football?

VCU soccer team was very good this year and fun to watch. Our best player actuallly just got picked(drafted) up by a MLS team very quickly. We have a good volleyball program

VCU mens soccer was ranked in the top 20, received an at-large and a first round bye in the NCAA tournament before losing to Syracuse in OT.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 14, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
The whole problem with this thread is it should have been SLU vs. Richmond, since Richmond is the better long term bet from the city of Richmond.

VCU fan/student here.  I've been following a lot of the threads on the different "Catholic 7" basketball boards and had to respond to this one.

I did most of my undergrad at VCU, but transferred to Richmond to finish.  I'm back at VCU for my Masters right now, but plan on going back to UR for my law degree.

As far as UR and the Richmond market goes, they might as well not exist.  The University of Richmond actually has most of it's students come from the North East and A LOT from Philly.  Last time I checked, I think it was something like 8% of the UR student body actually being from Richmond.  UR is the most expensive school in the state.  There are much better institutions that are cheaper in VA (UVA, William & Mary etc.) Because the cost of living is so high in the North East, they can come to UR, and still et what would be an in-state rate to come here and get a better education.

The result is that Richmond has NO fan base here.  When they graduate, they all move back north.  The ones that are here, are all over 50 (because that was the last time students that atended UR were predominately from Richmond).  They are jokingly referred to as the red sweater crowd.  VCU is playing away at UR a week from Thursday, and it looks like it will be a home game for VCU.  My dad, my brother and I were all able to get 4 tickets to the UR/VCU game in their "premium" (center court, first 10 rows) without any problem.  UR selling out their court is a VERY rare occurrence (if ever).

I have a friend who is an owner of a local Richmond, VA news organization, and even though UR is a contributor to that news organization, UR has to constantly remind the news company that they exist (UR has complained several times that I know of about lack of coverage).

UR aside, I can tell you that the new basketball conference is all VCU fans have on their mind right now.  Being raked #22 in the AP top 25 is great, but being left behind in the A-10 (essentially the CAA+ after Butler, Xavier and Dayton leave) is a nightmare.  

I think what is kind of telling, is that there have been multiple VCU fans come out of their way to hunt down threads on C7 message boards.  Not one from SLU. 

I would like to thank all the VCU alum/fans who have provided us with some additional info on their school and program.  I'm pulling for you guys to be added.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 06:21:49 PM
VCU fan/student here.  I've been following a lot of the threads on the different "Catholic 7" basketball boards and had to respond to this one.

I did most of my undergrad at VCU, but transferred to Richmond to finish.  I'm back at VCU for my Masters right now, but plan on going back to UR for my law degree.

As far as UR and the Richmond market goes, they might as well not exist.  The University of Richmond actually has most of it's students come from the North East and A LOT from Philly.  Last time I checked, I think it was something like 8% of the UR student body actually being from Richmond.  UR is the most expensive school in the state.  There are much better institutions that are cheaper in VA (UVA, William & Mary etc.) Because the cost of living is so high in the North East, they can come to UR, and still et what would be an in-state rate to come here and get a better education.

The result is that Richmond has NO fan base here.  When they graduate, they all move back north.  The ones that are here, are all over 50 (because that was the last time students that atended UR were predominately from Richmond).  They are jokingly referred to as the red sweater crowd.  VCU is playing away at UR a week from Thursday, and it looks like it will be a home game for VCU.  My dad, my brother and I were all able to get 4 tickets to the UR/VCU game in their "premium" (center court, first 10 rows) without any problem.  UR selling out their court is a VERY rare occurrence (if ever).

I have a friend who is an owner of a local Richmond, VA news organization, and even though UR is a contributor to that news organization, UR has to constantly remind the news company that they exist (UR has complained several times that I know of about lack of coverage).

UR aside, I can tell you that the new basketball conference is all VCU fans have on their mind right now.  Being raked #22 in the AP top 25 is great, but being left behind in the A-10 (essentially the CAA+ after Butler, Xavier and Dayton leave) is a nightmare.  

Thanks for the on the spot update....

It had been argued here that VCU is a lesser candidate long term than Richmond because their arena is smaller (just 6k), and they are a predominately commuter student school, and the commuters don't give a frack about the sports teams.  Untrue?

I don't know where this rumor about VCU's arena being 6k came from.  It holds 7600.  SLU's state of the art, "ginormous new arena" holds 10,600 (which they can't even sell out).  woopty-doo.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 07:01:25 PM
I would like to thank all the VCU alum/fans who have provided us with some additional info on their school and program.  I'm pulling for you guys to be added.

No problem man .... Go Rams>>>>Slu

Marquette fan living in Richmond here.

IMO, VCU is the obvious choice between the two. This city lives and breathes Rams basketball. Many of my friends attend the university and have persuaded me to attend a few games. The experience is incredible to say the least.

As many posters in this thread have pointed out, the University of Richmond has a very niche following around here. My high schools halls were filled with VCU jerseys, even as far back as 2006; the same can't be said about the Spiders.

I dig the whole Catholic identity thing. Most of my family attended/attends Marquette. I still think VCU is a no-brainer though.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 07:07:08 PM
I don't know where this rumor about VCU's arena being 6k came from.  It holds 7600.  SLU's state of the art, "ginormous new arena" holds 10,600 (which they can't even sell out).  woopty-doo.

Do any of you guys know if the teams that will make up the C7 wil be annouced any time soon

Glad to see VCU fans on the forums.  Keep up the great posts, guys!  Additionally, welcome!  Hopefully we have something to talk about for longer than the next couple weeks!

Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 14, 2013, 07:29:11 PM
Glad to see VCU fans on the forums.  Keep up the great posts, guys!  Additionally, welcome!  Hopefully we have something to talk about for longer than the next couple weeks!

Ha i really want them to already to annouce if VCU is in the C7

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 07:31:38 PM
Ha i really want them to already to annouce if VCU is in the C7

If a TV deal gets signed, then we will hear what schools will be in the conference.  I'd bet we get this information as one big chunk, and sooner rather than later.  Fox1 will want plenty of time to advertise content for their new channel.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 14, 2013, 07:34:20 PM
If a TV deal gets signed, then we will hear what schools will be in the conference.  I'd bet we get this information as one big chunk, and sooner rather than later.  Fox1 will want plenty of time to advertise content for their new channel.

When would the C7 start playing all together also...... How much of an impact does Fox have on the C7s selection of teams.... Bc im pretty for sure Fox wants VCU over SLU

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 14, 2013, 07:04:59 PM
Thanks for the on the spot update....

It had been argued here that VCU is a lesser candidate long term than Richmond because their arena is smaller (just 6k), and they are a predominately commuter student school, and the commuters don't give a frack about the sports teams.  Untrue?

The Siegal Center hold 7,600 and has been sold out as far back as last season.  There is a waiting list to get season tickets and standing room only tickets go for around $40 right now.  There are plans to expand the seating to around 9,000 in the next couple of years.  VCU students can't get enough of VCU sports.  To get basketball tickets for big games, students start waiting in line literally days before (and that was our last season in the CAA)  I drove down to T for the Final Four and was actually torn on my decision to go as I really wanted to watch it here in a local bar.  The entire city was going NUTS.

The talk around the VCU fans base has been that if we get invited to the new C7 league, we would play our games in the Richmond coliseum (12,000 seats) until we could build a bigger arena.  During the CAA tournament, every time VCU played, the place would sell out.  VCU basketball tickets are the hardest ticket to get in the state right now.  

Because Virginia doesn't have any major soports teams to contend with, VCU basketball really is the premier sporting event in the city.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 07:41:43 PM
When would the C7 start playing all together also...... How much of an impact does Fox have on the C7s selection of teams.... Bc im pretty for sure Fox wants VCU over SLU

We were debating the start date yesterday.  No later than 2014, but 2013 might cause logistical issues.

As far how much say Fox has, well no one here can say for certain.  You can bet that schools like SLU, Dayton and Creighton are lobbying hard.  So do the C7 take a slightly smaller cut, but keep the conference as all private schools?  Who knows.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 07:41:43 PM
When would the C7 start playing all together also...... How much of an impact does Fox have on the C7s selection of teams.... Bc im pretty for sure Fox wants VCU over SLU

That's the big question.  From what I've been hearing from most VCU fans is that we will be the 13th team in a 12 team league.  Word is that if the contract goes to FOX, the league would start in the 2013-2014 season as the ESPN contract runs out and the FOX sports network that will be replacing the Speed channel will start programming.  They want to have this contract in place when they start broadcasting as it will be the foundation of their new sports network.  If FOX doesn't get the deal, I would think that the new conference would start in 2014-2015 as it will save all of the C7 schools from having to pay the exit fee from the Big East.

The Big East is still untangling itself and who has to pay what for which property needs to be figured out.  I think both sides want it to be amicable...but fair.

Question for VCU folk.  Any talk of starting a football team?  I think the C7 are wary about split loyalties given their experience in the BE.

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 05:46:19 PM
We'd like to be in a top-tier basketball conference, whether that's the A10 with Georgetown, Marquette, etc or the new Big East with Georgetown, Marquette, etc. Either way, best of luck to your program.

FIFY  ;)

It's great to see passionate basketball fans from VCU - I echo the sentiments that I have yet to see one charm doll worshipper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiken) weigh in here.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 14, 2013, 07:54:49 PM
The Big East is still untangling itself and who has to pay what for which property needs to be figured out.  I think both sides want it to be amicable...but fair.

Question for VCU folk.  Any talk of starting a football team?  I think the C7 are wary about split loyalties given their experience in the BE.

hahaha there wont be a football team anytime soon maybe 2090

VCU fans are welcome to visit.   But you guys are being way to respectful and logical.    That all changes if VCU ends up in, right?   You will give us a reason to hate your guts, right?    There will be some obnoxious smack at some point, right?     Right now, you all are a bunch of Stepford wives.    Seriously, though, thanks for the input and insight from a perspective we don't often get.  

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 08:03:17 PM
VCU fans are welcome to visit.   But you guys are being way to respectful and logical.    That all changes if VCU ends up in, right?   You will give us a reason to hate your guts, right?    There will be some obnoxious smack at some point, right?     Right now, you all are a bunch of Stepford wives.    Seriously, though, thanks for the input and insight from a perspective we don't often get. 

Yeah!  unnatural carnal knowledge VCU!  RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 08:03:17 PM
VCU fans are welcome to visit.   But you guys are being way to respectful and logical.    That all changes if VCU ends up in, right?   You will give us a reason to hate your guts, right?    There will be some obnoxious smack at some point, right?     Right now, you all are a bunch of Stepford wives.    Seriously, though, thanks for the input and insight from a perspective we don't often get.  

They told me to be respectful until we get into the league and the all talk smack to u guys

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 14, 2013, 07:54:49 PM
The Big East is still untangling itself and who has to pay what for which property needs to be figured out.  I think both sides want it to be amicable...but fair.

Question for VCU folk.  Any talk of starting a football team?  I think the C7 are wary about split loyalties given their experience in the BE.

Out last University President made it very clear that there would NEVER be football at VCU as long as he was here.  Our new president was open to the idea at first, but decided that it would cost the University too much money.  With the economy the way it is, the interest has not been there and with our move to the A-10, President Rao made it abundantly clear that football is not even on the VCU radar.  We have so much invested in our basketball program right now that I don't ever see a football program happening and as of the last poll of VCU students and alumni, there was little to no interest from them wither.  The thinking is, why would we start up a football program with great expense and never be the football program that was given any press (due to VT among others), when we could continue to invest heavily in our basketball program and continue to be the best in the state.

So in short, ...football...no chance.

So another administration who says that starting football at this point makes no economic sense.   I like VCU more all the time.

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 08:03:17 PM
VCU fans are welcome to visit.   But you guys are being way to respectful and logical.    That all changes if VCU ends up in, right?   You will give us a reason to hate your guts, right?    There will be some obnoxious smack at some point, right?     Right now, you all are a bunch of Stepford wives.    Seriously, though, thanks for the input and insight from a perspective we don't often get.  

It's too early to talk smack.  We aren't even one of the top names in consideration as far as we can tell.  But don't worry, a lot of teams and their fans end up with more than enough reason to hate us after we beat them in the conference tournament every year.   ;)

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 08:06:14 PM
The thinking is, why would we start up a football program with great expense and never be the football program that was given any press (due to VT among others), when we could continue to invest heavily in our basketball program and continue to be the best in the state.

Those of you around here who want football back at MU... this sums up exactly why we shouldn't.  Good to see that other programs think like that.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
It's too early to talk smack.  We aren't even one of the top names in consideration as far as we can tell.  But don't worry, a lot of teams and their fans end up with more than enough reason to hate us after we beat them in the conference tournament every year.   ;)

Well, you do have 31K students and MU has around 8k, so I am sure that you have your share of people we can learn to hate. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2013, 08:12:15 PM
Well, you do have 31K students and MU has around 8k, so I am sure that you have your share of people we can learn to hate. 

Do they burn couches around Richmond?

Quote from: CaptainAwesome on January 14, 2013, 08:13:30 PM
Do they burn couches around Richmond?

Lol, no

VCU vs Dayton last week

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8365564489_9983ce290a_b.jpg)

Richmond vs William and Mary in November

(http://flathatnews.com/wp-content/themes/Broadcast/thumb.php?src=http://flathatnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/20121128-DSC_0092.jpg&w=581&h=252&zc=1&q=100)

VCU>>>RICHMOND
VCU>>>>>ST.LOUIS
VCU>>>>>DAYTON

Not the best comparison.  Dayton and stetson aren't really comparable opponents.  But I understand your point.

VCU was one of only 5 teams in the Country to sell out every single home game last year, and it's looking like we will continue to sell out every single home game this year too.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 08:32:45 PM
Not the best comparison.  Dayton and stetson aren't really comparable opponents.  But I understand your point.

True, and it was actually William and Mary. I corrected it. Not any better, haha.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
VCU was one of only 5 teams in the Country to sell out every single home game last year, and it's looking like we will continue to sell out every single home game this year too.

Pump the brakes a little bro.

There are many reasons to be proud of your program, but I don't really think you should be bragging about a school with 30K students selling out a gym that looks like it holds less than 10K. Not too impressive imo.

VCU TAKINGOVER THE MARQUETTE BOARDS BABY

Quote from: MUSF on January 14, 2013, 08:50:34 PM
Pump the brakes a little bro.

There are many reasons to be proud of your program, but I don't really think you should be bragging about a school with 30K students selling out a gym that looks like it holds less than 10K. Not too impressive imo.

HAHAH he wants a fight and ya true but the stadium should be rounded out like this in a couple of years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAMU_Arena.jpg

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
VCU was one of only 5 teams in the Country to sell out every single home game last year, and it's looking like we will continue to sell out every single home game this year too.

A remarkable streak for sure, but it's worth noting that only one team in a BCS-level conference plays in a smaller gym (Villanova).

EDIT: Stanford and TCU also play in smaller arenas than VCU.

If admitted as Team #12, VCU's home arena would be the second-smallest arena in the league. It's a little easier to sell out a 7k gym than say, the Verizon Center.

20,308- Verizon Center (Georgetown)
20,238- Wells Fargo Center (Villanova select games)
19,033- Madison Square Garden (St. John's)
18,850- Bradley Center (Marquette)
18,711- Prudential Center (Seton Hall)
18,320- CenturyLink Center (Creighton)
17,500- Allstate Arena (DePaul)
13,435- UD Arena (Dayton)
12,400- Dunkin Donuts Center (Providence)
10,250- Cintas Center (Xavier)
10,000- Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler)
7,617- Stuart C. Siegel Center (Virginia Commonwealth)
6,500- The Pavilion (Villanova)

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 08:53:45 PM
HAHAH he wants a fight and ya true but the stadium should be rounded out like this in a couple of years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAMU_Arena.jpg

Three things:

1. I don't "want a fight". I just want to keep some realistic perspective of the value of VCU's program vs. SLU and others.
2. Are you playing at Florida A&M next year, or implying that VCU's new arena will look like FAMU?
3. The A&M gym still looks like it holds 10K or less.

Quote from: MUSF on January 14, 2013, 08:58:48 PM
Three things:

1. I don't "want a fight". I just want to keep some realistic perspective of the value of VCU's program vs. SLU and others.
2. Are you playing at Florida A&M next year, or implying that VCU's new arena will look like FAMU?
3. The A&M gym still looks like it holds 10K or less.

Haha man im just messing around
But no im saying will wrap around like FAMUs bc ours has gaps...... But no like they said it should go up to 9000 plus

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 14, 2013, 08:58:28 PM
A remarkable streak for sure, but it's worth noting that only one team in a BCS-level conference plays in a smaller gym (Villanova).

If admitted as Team #12, VCU's home arena would be the second-smallest arena in the league. It's a little easier to sell out a 7k gym than say, the Verizon Center.

20,308- Verizon Center (Georgetown)
20,238- Wells Fargo Center (Villanova select games)
19,033- Madison Square Garden (St. John's)
18,850- Bradley Center (Marquette)
18,711- Prudential Center (Seton Hall)
18,320- CenturyLink Center (Creighton)
17,500- Allstate Arena (DePaul)
13,435- UD Arena (Dayton)
12,400- Dunkin Donuts Center (Providence)
10,250- Cintas Center (Xavier)
10,000- Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler)
7,617- Stuart C. Siegel Center (Virginia Commonwealth)
6,500- The Pavilion (Villanova)

No way Providence arena is called Dunkin Donuts Arena!!!!!!!! Thats awesome ;D

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 14, 2013, 08:58:28 PM
A remarkable streak for sure, but it's worth noting that only one team in a BCS-level conference plays in a smaller gym (Villanova).

If admitted as Team #12, VCU's home arena would be the second-smallest arena in the league. It's a little easier to sell out a 7k gym than say, the Verizon Center.

20,308- Verizon Center (Georgetown)
20,238- Wells Fargo Center (Villanova select games)
19,033- Madison Square Garden (St. John's)
18,850- Bradley Center (Marquette)
18,711- Prudential Center (Seton Hall)
18,320- CenturyLink Center (Creighton)
17,500- Allstate Arena (DePaul)
13,435- UD Arena (Dayton)
12,400- Dunkin Donuts Center (Providence)
10,250- Cintas Center (Xavier)
10,000- Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler)
7,617- Stuart C. Siegel Center (Virginia Commonwealth)
6,500- The Pavilion (Villanova)

Truth. And from the rumors I've heard, VCU realizes that. Like I said, we are already planning to add seats to the Stu to get us to just over 9,000, and if we get the invite to the new conference, a new court would be in the works. We would most likely play in the Richmond coliseum (12,000) until the new arena could be built. The city or Richmond has been talking about building a new stadium for a while, so we would have plenty of business partnering opportunities in building a new, much bigger coliseum.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 09:08:10 PM
Truth. And from the rumors I've heard, VCU realizes that. Like I said, we are already planning to add seats to the Stu to get us to just over 9,000, and if we get the invite to the new conference, a new court would be in the works. We would most likely play in the Richmond coliseum (12,000) until the new arena could be built. The city or Richmond has been talking about building a new stadium for a while, so we would have plenty of business partnering opportunities in building a new, much bigger coliseum.

Ya we are ready for a new league... we have been in the A10 for to long

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 09:13:30 PM
Ya we are ready for a new league... we have been in the A10 for to long

Those two months must have really dragged.

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 14, 2013, 08:58:28 PM
A remarkable streak for sure, but it's worth noting that only one team in a BCS-level conference plays in a smaller gym (Villanova).

EDIT: Stanford and TCU also play in smaller arenas than VCU.

If admitted as Team #12, VCU's home arena would be the second-smallest arena in the league. It's a little easier to sell out a 7k gym than say, the Verizon Center.

20,308- Verizon Center (Georgetown)
20,238- Wells Fargo Center (Villanova select games)
19,033- Madison Square Garden (St. John's)
18,850- Bradley Center (Marquette)
18,711- Prudential Center (Seton Hall)
18,320- CenturyLink Center (Creighton)
17,500- Allstate Arena (DePaul)
13,435- UD Arena (Dayton)
12,400- Dunkin Donuts Center (Providence)
10,250- Cintas Center (Xavier)
10,000- Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler)
7,617- Stuart C. Siegel Center (Virginia Commonwealth)
6,500- The Pavilion (Villanova)

St. John's also still uses Carnesecca Arena for some games (looks like 8 this year, 2 being BE).  That would be the smallest venue at 5,602.

This was from Saturday night and an editorial, but interesting nonetheless:

QuoteBoth brand-name programs plan to begin play within two years in what could be a new 12-team, two-division conference along with five other Big East non-football-playing members — Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul and Marquette — and most likely five members of the Atlantic 10 — Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Saint Louis and VCU.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044

I wonder if Weiss knows what he's talking about? I know the NY Daily News isn't the most credible of media outlets.

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 14, 2013, 09:20:04 PM
Those two months must have really dragged.

Ya I know man im ready for C7 :P ::) ;)

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 09:21:31 PM
This was from Saturday night and an editorial, but interesting nonetheless:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044

I wonder if Weiss knows what he's talking about? I know the NY Daily News isn't the most credible of media outlets.

I just tweeted at him maybe he will respond

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044

Looks like this author covers St Johns. Creighton is not amongst the 12 with VCU in?
Also some insight on Coach Smart. NC State went for him after the FF, Illinois fans were positive they had him last year, but no dice. He has said he is happy in Richmond (it really is actually a nice small city) and I believe that so long as VCU AD moves in a poitive direction he will be here for a while. His salary is in the 1.8m range and living is much cheaper here than say LA or Chicago (he is a Cubs fan by the way). He and Mark Few are good friends and he and Brad Stevens are as well from what I understand. Few has stayed at a place he loves and I think Smart could too. Hell, I imagine the Richmond City Council could justify contributing $500k to his salary to keep him. Regardless, should he leave, the coach n waiting (I hope anyway) would be Mike Rhoades. See we've had the stepping stone deal done to us. Look at the results. Capel to Oklahoma (Blake G leaves and Capel is back on the Duke bench as an assistant), Anthony Grant to Alabama...dont read they boards as they are ready to dump him. ZVCU is prepared to spend the money on facilities and more importantly the Coach to keep the arrow pointed up. No way football happens at VCU. Soccer is sdtrong (we hired the lead asst off the Akron team 3 yrs ago and were ranked this season). Oh yeah the football thing...we made way too much fun of Old Dominion u to ever start a team at this point...great conversation if it happens it would be great and y'all come on down to Richmond for some Southern hospitality and great beer.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
I think what is kind of telling, is that there have been multiple VCU fans come out of their way to hunt down threads on C7 message boards.  Not one from SLU. 

Come on, now we're getting ridiculous here. One VCU fan found this thread and posted about it on their forum.  I don't see Butler fans anywhere at all, do you?

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 14, 2013, 06:21:49 PM
VCU fan/student here.  I've been following a lot of the threads on the different "Catholic 7" basketball boards and had to respond to this one.

I did most of my undergrad at VCU, but transferred to Richmond to finish.  I'm back at VCU for my Masters right now, but plan on going back to UR for my law degree.

As far as UR and the Richmond market goes, they might as well not exist.  The University of Richmond actually has most of it's students come from the North East and A LOT from Philly.  Last time I checked, I think it was something like 8% of the UR student body actually being from Richmond.  UR is the most expensive school in the state.  There are much better institutions that are cheaper in VA (UVA, William & Mary etc.) Because the cost of living is so high in the North East, they can come to UR, and still et what would be an in-state rate to come here and get a better education.

The result is that Richmond has NO fan base here.  When they graduate, they all move back north.  The ones that are here, are all over 50 (because that was the last time students that atended UR were predominately from Richmond).  They are jokingly referred to as the red sweater crowd.  VCU is playing away at UR a week from Thursday, and it looks like it will be a home game for VCU.  My dad, my brother and I were all able to get 4 tickets to the UR/VCU game in their "premium" (center court, first 10 rows) without any problem.  UR selling out their court is a VERY rare occurrence (if ever).

I have a friend who is an owner of a local Richmond, VA news organization, and even though UR is a contributor to that news organization, UR has to constantly remind the news company that they exist (UR has complained several times that I know of about lack of coverage).

UR aside, I can tell you that the new basketball conference is all VCU fans have on their mind right now.  Being raked #22 in the AP top 25 is great, but being left behind in the A-10 (essentially the CAA+ after Butler, Xavier and Dayton leave) is a nightmare.  

You do know you are speaking to fans of a private school, most of whom are not Milwaukee natives?

Quote from: ssnakes9 on January 14, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
Marquette fan living in Richmond here.

IMO, VCU is the obvious choice between the two. This city lives and breathes Rams basketball. Many of my friends attend the university and have persuaded me to attend a few games. The experience is incredible to say the least.

As many posters in this thread have pointed out, the University of Richmond has a very niche following around here. My high schools halls were filled with VCU jerseys, even as far back as 2006; the same can't be said about the Spiders.

I dig the whole Catholic identity thing. Most of my family attended/attends Marquette. I still think VCU is a no-brainer though.

Neither SLU nor VCU is what anyone should call a "no brainer."

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
Come on, now we're getting ridiculous here. One VCU fan found this thread and posted about it on their forum.  I don't see Butler fans anywhere at all, do you?

VCU fans>>>>>Everyone else

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 08:05:51 PM
They told me to be respectful until we get into the league and the all talk smack to u guys

Haha, I saw that on your board.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:37:41 PM
Neither SLU nor VCU is what anyone should call a "no brainer."

Or Creighton , Dayton... The only sure fire ones are Butler and Xavier

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 08:32:15 PM
VCU>>>RICHMOND
VCU>>>>>ST.LOUIS
VCU>>>>>DAYTON

No on Dayton. I don't even like them, but no.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:39:21 PM
Haha, I saw that on your board.

Ya they think i get feisty some times :o :P ;D

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 09:40:04 PM
Or Creighton , Dayton... The only sure fire ones are Butler and Xavier

Yes, Creighton is. Don't even try. They sell out an 18,000+ arena, have a better history,....oh jeez what's the point.

Quote from: major ram on January 14, 2013, 09:31:16 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044

Looks like this author covers St Johns. Creighton is not amongst the 12 with VCU in?
Also some insight on Coach Smart. NC State went for him after the FF, Illinois fans were positive they had him last year, but no dice. He has said he is happy in Richmond (it really is actually a nice small city) and I believe that so long as VCU AD moves in a poitive direction he will be here for a while. His salary is in the 1.8m range and living is much cheaper here than say LA or Chicago (he is a Cubs fan by the way). He and Mark Few are good friends and he and Brad Stevens are as well from what I understand. Few has stayed at a place he loves and I think Smart could too. Hell, I imagine the Richmond City Council could justify contributing $500k to his salary to keep him. Regardless, should he leave, the coach n waiting (I hope anyway) would be Mike Rhoades. See we've had the stepping stone deal done to us. Look at the results. Capel to Oklahoma (Blake G leaves and Capel is back on the Duke bench as an assistant), Anthony Grant to Alabama...dont read they boards as they are ready to dump him. ZVCU is prepared to spend the money on facilities and more importantly the Coach to keep the arrow pointed up. No way football happens at VCU. Soccer is sdtrong (we hired the lead asst off the Akron team 3 yrs ago and were ranked this season). Oh yeah the football thing...we made way too much fun of Old Dominion u to ever start a team at this point...great conversation if it happens it would be great and y'all come on down to Richmond for some Southern hospitality and great beer.

No Creighton would be very very disappointing. Remove SLU, Dayton, VCU...but not Creighton.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
Come on, now we're getting ridiculous here. One VCU fan found this thread and posted about it on their forum.  I don't see Butler fans anywhere at all, do you?

This thread isn't about butler.  Nor is there a debate about whether they should be added. 

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 10:04:42 PM
This thread isn't about butler.  Nor is there a debate about whether they should be added. 

I just think you're reaching for an additional reason.

Not really.  One of my arguments is that nobody cares about SLU.

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 14, 2013, 10:17:15 PM
Not really.  One of my arguments is that nobody cares about SLU.

Yea really who talks about SLU ... Iv heard more press bout Vcu in a week than St. LOUIS all year

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 14, 2013, 10:20:09 PM
Yea really who talks about SLU ... Iv heard more press bout Vcu in a week than St. LOUIS all year

Says the VCU fan who spends all day looking for VCU mentions on other message boards.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 10:22:34 PM
Says the VCU fan who spends all day looking for VCU mentions on other message boards.

Yep says me haha ... Just my opinion but i am right ... And alittle bias haha :P

I've never been one to act as the Grammar Police, but I'm thinking of one area SLU is better than VCU.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:37:41 PM
Neither SLU nor VCU is what anyone should call a "no brainer."

My statement was in reference to the poll at hand.

First of all great forums and I'm enjoying the debate. Here's my little blurb about why I think VCU will be invited to the C7.

Let's revisit the press release from the C7 Presidents on why they were leaving the Big East and starting a new conference:

"Under the current context of conference realignment, we believe pursuing a new basketball framework that builds on this tradition of excellence and competition is the best way forward. While we pursue this opportunity for our institutions, we believe the efforts of the past two years have established the foundation for an enduring national football conference.

We look forward to building this new foundation with an emphasis on elite competition and a commitment to the development of our students engaged in intercollegiate athletics. That is where we will now spend our energy as we move forward."

Priorities from the C7 Presidents:
1. Money, correct they didn't say that but let's not kid ourselves. This will come mainly from network contracts and NCAA units.
2. Emphasis on elite competition and tradition of excellence for a basketball centric framework
3. Development of students engaged in intercollegiate athletes (academics)

Please note that they didn't say they were leaving because the Big East was not committed to the same religious beliefs or that schools were too big or public. It was that football controlled all decisions regarding the conference.

About VCU and addressing some common objections and misconceptions

Public- Should not be an issue as it wasn't for Louisville, Cincinnati and Rutgers (founding Big East member). This is about basketball vs football (and money).. not private vs public.

No religious ties- Most likely will be a pro so the C7 can shed the "C" and be basketball/student athletes first.

Large- The largest University in VA with 33,000 enrollment (very large fan base)

Your Arena is too small- VCU built it's modern basketball facilities in 1999 located on campus. Current max capacity is 7,693 and expansions are planned (and a new practice facility). From 2011 to today VCU is currently just one of five schools in the country to sell out each one of their home games, joined by Duke, Kansas, Michigan State and Gonzaga. In comparison, SLU's Chaifetz Arena's capacity is 10,414 with an average attendance of 7,464 in 2012.

Media Market- Other media markets may be larger; however VCU owns the central VA market. VCU's market does not overlap the Georgetown DC market. 50,000 central VA homes tuned into the VCU/Dayton game. The VCU/Butler final four was the most watched since 2005 when aired. Likely one of the main reasons VCU's name is being thrown around is due to FOX wanting them in the new league (conjecture).

You've only had success under Shaka Smart- Completely false. Yes we gained at ton of brand recognition with the final four run; however we've had success under multiple coaches. VCU has not had a loosing record for 13 straight years under 4 different coaches. Three of these coaches have taken VCU to the NCAA tourney in 5 out of the last 10 years. Jeff Capel once, Anthony Grant twice and Shaka Smart Twice. Going back to the 80's VCU has been to the NCAA Tourney 11 times under 5 different coaches.

Commuter School- (stolen from Iceman on another forum) VCU is not a commuter school. 23,000 undergrads in a city of 205,000 metropolitan. Seriously? 10% of the population is commuting to school? A simple search revealed the entire city of Richmond doesn't even have 23,000 students in all of their high schools combined, and the total number of seniors graduating each year is less than 3,000. Of those, only a fraction stay home to attend VCU. But yeah, 800-900 total students living at home and commuting to a 23,000 strong campus makes it a commuter school. The University of Houston, the largest actual commuter school in the country, has 31k undergrads from a city of 4.9M. SMH. VCU is a destination school. Just reading on their website would have told you less than 4% of their student body is from Richmond. Really hard to be a commuter school with 95%+ of your student body moves to that city to attend school.

Academics- (stolen from Iceman on another forum) Also, I'd caution against thinking that just b/c VCU is a public university, it's admissions standards are all that different. A third of the BE7 + candidates have a higher admission percentage than VCU. And if you look at US News Rankings (which aren't the best barometer, but are all we have), several of the schools are in the same neighborhood as VCU in terms of academic reputation. 5 of them don't even offer masters or other advanced degrees. I doubt there's a huge difference in admissions between the schools, and having watched/listened to players from all of the BE7 + candidates over the years, there's little doubt none of them have particularly high admissions requirements for student athletes. Every single school in the country has lower student athlete requirements than for the student body...........even Harvard.

Admissions comparison to Seton Hall:

VCU- Admissions Data (2011):
Percent of Applicants Admitted: 71%
Average High School GPA: 3.45
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 480 / 600
SAT Math: 490 / 590
SAT Writing: 470 / 590
ACT Composite: 20 / 26
Source: http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/virginia-commonwealth-university.htm

Seton Hall- Admissions Data (2011):
Percent of Applicants Admitted: 85%
Average High School GPA: 3.4
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 470 / 580
SAT Math: 490 / 590
SAT Writing: 490 / 600
ACT Composite: 21 / 26
Sources
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/seton-hall.htm
http://www.shu.edu/applying/undergraduate/application-checklist.cfm

Geography- VCU is a better fit in regards to an even geographic split of 6 East and 6 West schools. Geography will play an important roll regarding travel for all olympic sports. VCU is an easy fit into the 5 BE7 East Coast schools. Creighton and SLU are the geographic anomalies. It makes more since to pick SLU over Creighton if geography was of high importance
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2jb6uk3.jpg)

The following data is what should carry the most weight with the C7. Performance on the hardwood.

12 Years Avg: RPI and SOS (N/C)
Xavier- 39.42, 52.18
Creighton- 51.50, 129.00
VCU-69.17, 85.83
Dayton- 69.58, 71.55
Butler- 71.25, 111.27  
Richmond- 110.42, 120.73
Saint Louis- 104.75, 115.64
*Source Joe Linardi
**I could only find SOS (N/C) going back 6 years for VCU

NCAA Tournament History (last 10 years)
Xavier- total: 9, best: elite eight, record: 14-9
Butler- total: 6, best: runner up, record: 15-5
VCU- total: 5, best: final four, record: 7-5
Creighton- total 4, best: second round, record: 1-4
Dayton- total: 3, best: second round, record: 1-3
SLU- total: 1, best: second round, record: 1-1

NCAA Tournament History 1980-2012
VCU- total: 11, best: final four, record: 11-11
SLU- total: 5, best: second round, record: 3-5

ESPN 50 most successful programs of the past 50 years
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8298598/conference-breakdowns-50-50-rankings
34. Xavier
53. Virginia Commonwealth
59. Butler
69. Creighton
81. Dayton
126. Richmond
216. Saint Louis

Using the above data you would have to rank the candidates: (#8) Xavier, (#9) Butler, (#10) VCU, (#11) Creighton, (#12) Dayton, (#13) Richmond, (#14) St. Louis.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 14, 2013, 11:43:08 PM
First of all great forums

I didn't read past the intro, but you have me convinced!
(I'll leave it to someone else to tear down your logic...)

As a MU alum living in Washington, DC, I've been touting VCU to get an invite to the new conference since the C7 split off from the BE, especially before Dayton or SLU are invited. My ideal new conference would include the C7 plus Xavier, Butler, Creighton, VCU and Gonzaga. If the league does not want to go all the way to the West Coast (or if Gonzaga doesn't want the travel for all sports), then look to SLU first, then Dayton.

Quote from: PTM on January 14, 2013, 11:26:41 PM
I've never been one to act as the Grammar Police, but I'm thinking of one area SLU is better than VCU.

We have a very strong and literate fan base. 
Please don't judge us by the postings from one person :) 

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 14, 2013, 09:36:17 PM
You do know you are speaking to fans of a private school, most of whom are not Milwaukee natives?

Yes, but my response was directed at the question relating to fan base in the Richmond area.

Quote from: psrichmond on January 15, 2013, 02:02:39 AM
We have a very strong and literate fan base. 
Please don't judge us by the postings from one person :) 

I'll keep an open mind, but first impressions.

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 05:46:19 PM

Let's talk TV ratings for a moment. SLU averages around a 1.0 TV rating in their home market. Last week VCU pulled in a 7.7 overnight against Dayton. If you're looking at market potential, then SLU is the better choice. But that's a risk trying to get a market that's already caught up in Mizzou and Illinois to buy into the program.

As it stands, VCU is outperforming SLU in their home market by about 35,000 households a game. That's because VCU owns the Richmond market. Not Virginia Tech or Virginia or Richmond. It's not even close. We sold out the entire season in August, which will take us to 35 consecutive sellouts by March. There are six Fortune 500 companies in RVA, and major corporate money is the reason why we're about to build a practice facility that's third only to Oklahoma State or Kentucky. An expansion on the Siegel Center is not far on the Horizon (pun intended).

We'd like to be in a top-tier basketball conference, whether that's the A10 with Georgetown, Marquette, etc or the new Big East. Either way, best of luck to your program.

Thanks for providing some numbers in Richmond. My knowledge is from my travels around the state and have only been in Richmond a couple of times and that was a few years back before the recent success.

What do you mean by 3rd to Kentucky and Oklahoma State?

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 05:46:19 PM
Hi there. VCU alum here, hope you guys don't mind me chiming in. I'm not going to tell you how awesome and incredible VCU is, except to say you just have to experience it for yourself.

Let's talk TV ratings for a moment. SLU averages around a 1.0 TV rating in their home market. Last week VCU pulled in a 7.7 overnight against Dayton. If you're looking at market potential, then SLU is the better choice. But that's a risk trying to get a market that's already caught up in Mizzou and Illinois to buy into the program.

As it stands, VCU is outperforming SLU in their home market by about 35,000 households a game. That's because VCU owns the Richmond market. Not Virginia Tech or Virginia or Richmond. It's not even close. We sold out the entire season in August, which will take us to 35 consecutive sellouts by March. There are six Fortune 500 companies in RVA, and major corporate money is the reason why we're about to build a practice facility that's third only to Oklahoma State or Kentucky. An expansion on the Siegel Center is not far on the Horizon (pun intended).

All that being said, SLU is a great university with a very good program with a commitment to high level basketball. I'm sure they aren't going away soon, either.

We'd like to be in a top-tier basketball conference, whether that's the A10 with Georgetown, Marquette, etc or the new Big East. Either way, best of luck to your program.

Georgetown and Marquette in the Atlantic 10?  You must be visiting the Dayton forums.

Quote from: MUMonster03 on January 15, 2013, 07:21:52 AM
What do you mean by 3rd to Kentucky and Oklahoma State?

Yeah, I questioned something about that earlier.  Maybe we're a little defensive about this topic around here, but at t$12M, no way their place is going to compete with the Al.

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 09:21:31 PM
This was from Saturday night and an editorial, but interesting nonetheless:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044

I wonder if Weiss knows what he's talking about? I know the NY Daily News isn't the most credible of media outlets.

PLEASE NO DIVISIONS!!!  If 12 teams means we have to go to divisions, I want to stay at 10, or even 9.

I really doubt there will be divisions.  The SEC dropped them this year, and while a few of the "minor" conferences have them, they really make no sense for basketball. 

Quote from: Pretzel on January 14, 2013, 11:43:08 PM
Public- Should not be an issue as it wasn't for Louisville, Cincinnati and Rutgers (founding Big East member). This is about basketball vs football (and money).. not private vs public.

Rutgers isn't a founding member (didn't join until 1991 for football and later for hoops), but I agree with this point.  I think it is important for this conference to not limit itself to private or Catholic schools, which is a main reason I'd like to see VCU.

Quote from: Litehouse on January 15, 2013, 08:24:59 AM
PLEASE NO DIVISIONS!!!  If 12 teams means we have to go to divisions, I want to stay at 10, or even 9.

+1

I said close to the same thing in another thread. I have greatly enjoyed playing east coast schools such as Georgetown twice the last few years so I can go to more games.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 15, 2013, 08:19:55 AM
Georgetown and Marquette in the Atlantic 10?  You must be visiting the Dayton forums.

I fixed that for him a couple pages back  ;)

How much of Shaka Smart's success is tied to VCU's link to the future BE?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 15, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
I really doubt there will be divisions.  The SEC dropped them this year, and while a few of the "minor" conferences have them, they really make no sense for basketball. 

Yep, pointless.  The coaches didn't like them in the SEC, and it is foolish to "divide" 12 teams.  The SEC coaches hated the inevitable ongoing debate over which division was better (in the C7+5 going "east" and "west" would make this worse), which culminated in a year when four or five teams from one division made the tournament and zero from the other made it.  With 12 teams, there's seven home-and-homes out of 11 possible and no reason they need to fix five of them.  The incremental travel doesn't fly; for MU it's at most going to Providence instead of Omaha and Philadelphia instead of Cincinnati.  Also likely that Fox is saying they prefer no divisions - if MU and Georgetown rule this conference for the next five years, they want the schedule to adapt to allow them to show that matchup twice every year and are willing to pay to make sure it happens. 

I could understand divisions in other sports like soccer, volleyball, and even womens bball, to minimize travel costs, but they can't do it in mens basketball.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on January 15, 2013, 08:38:03 AM
How much of Shaka Smart's success is tied to VCU's link to the future BE?

Great question as most people outside of VA are only familiar with VCU's final run and to a lesser extent knocking Duke out of the first round in 2007. Yes we gained a ton of brand recognition with the final four run; however we've had success under multiple coaches. VCU has not had a loosing record for 13 straight years under 4 different coaches. 3 of these coaches have taken VCU to the NCAA tourney in 5 out of the last 10 years. Jeff Capel once, Anthony Grant twice and Shaka Smart Twice. Going back to the 80's VCU has been to the NCAA Tourney 11 times under 5 different coaches. While loosing Shaka would be a great loss (he's turned down Illinois and NC State) VCU has sustained success before him and will continue to do so whenever he moves on.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 08:59:27 AM
Great question as most people outside of VA are only familiar with VCU's final run and to a lesser extent knocking Duke out of the first round in 2007. Yes we gained a ton of brand recognition with the final four run; however we've had success under multiple coaches. VCU has not had a loosing record for 13 straight years under 4 different coaches. 3 of these coaches have taken VCU to the NCAA tourney in 5 out of the last 10 years. Jeff Capel once, Anthony Grant twice and Shaka Smart Twice. Going back to the 80's VCU has been to the NCAA Tourney 11 times under 5 different coaches. While loosing Shaka would be a great loss (he's turned down Illinois and NC State) VCU has sustained success before him and will continue to do so whenever he moves on.

But that's just it, if VCU gets an invite to the C7 conference, I don't think Shaka ever leaves. Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL. You can either be the coach that moves to a basketball school and be under constant pressure to preform, and given around 5 years to produce a championship before they start the talk about firing you, or you can be the coach who builds a dynasty like coach K. If VCU goes to the new conference, we would be able to double Shaka's salary now and give him a much larger recruiting budget. After building a new coliseum in Richmond for VCU games, there would be no incentive for him to leave.

My prediction, if VCU gets an invite, Shaka retires at VCU. If we don't get an invite and are left behind in the A-10, he's gone in 2-3 years if we are lucky.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But that's just it, if VCU gets an invite to the C7 conference, I don't think Shaka ever leaves. Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL.

No they weren't.  In the three previous years before Coach K got there, they lost in the Elite 8, lost in the second round, and lost the '78 championship game to Kentucky.

Bill Foster left Duke for South Carolina because at the time South Carolina was considered a better program.

Plus coaches can quickly change their tune. Please correct me if I'm wrong and forgetting something but how many times did Crean say he wasn't leaving until that one day he said "It's Indiana" (Sorry for dragging this up)

Quote from: MUMonster03 on January 15, 2013, 09:33:42 AM
Plus coaches can quickly change their tune. Please correct me if I'm wrong and forgetting something but how many times did Crean say he wasn't leaving until that one day he said "It's Indiana" (Sorry for dragging this up)

I don't think he ever flat out said "I'm not leaving."

I don't remember if he exactly said that either but my point is just because Shaka has said no and stayed at VCU for now doesn't mean he won't leave if the right program comes along and offers him a boat load of cash and a rich history of success.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL.

Obviously you don't remember Duke before Coach K. Either that, or you have a really bizarre definition of awful. In the 20 years prior to Coach K's arrival, Duke...

• ...went to the tournament 7 times.
  
• ...went to the Elite Eight 5 times.
  
• ...went to the Final Four 4 times.
  
• ...went to the Championship game 2 times.

.
Duke was a very, very good program before K arrived. Since he arrived they have been raised to elite status, but that doesn't take away from how good they were under Vic Bubas in the 1960s and Bill Foster in the 1970s.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But that's just it, if VCU gets an invite to the C7 conference, I don't think Shaka ever leaves. Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL. You can either be the coach that moves to a basketball school and be under constant pressure to preform, and given around 5 years to produce a championship before they start the talk about firing you, or you can be the coach who builds a dynasty like coach K. If VCU goes to the new conference, we would be able to double Shaka's salary now and give him a much larger recruiting budget. After building a new coliseum in Richmond for VCU games, there would be no incentive for him to leave.

My prediction, if VCU gets an invite, Shaka retires at VCU. If we don't get an invite and are left behind in the A-10, he's gone in 2-3 years if we are lucky.

While I completely agree with your logic, I believe Smart is different than most. Shaka was accepted into Harvard, Yale and Brown out of high school but chose Div. III Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio, because of his relationship with the basketball coach. He had the option to go to the "bigger brand" ivy league schools but decided the grass wasn't greener and put relationships first. Also, after his freshman year, the coach left, and Smart was heartbroken. He knows what it feels like to have your coach/mentor leave. While VCU did a great increasing Shaka's base to $1.2M before bonuses.. he still walked away from a guaranteed $2.5M at Illinois.

I don't think Shaka is a man that chases after established programs or quick cash (which he has proven). He does not want to piggy back off of another program's legacy. He wants to create his own legacy and that's what he's doing at VCU.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 09:47:42 AM

I don't think Shaka is a man that chases after established programs or quick cash (which he has proven). He does not want to piggy back off of another program's legacy. He wants to create his own legacy and that's what he's doing at VCU.

So far you are right he has stayed where he is at and is building the program. But who ever thought Roy Williams would leave Kansas but the dream job came open in UNC. But you bring in a school because of their success as a program not because of a hot coach and VCU supporters have been trumpeting that the program has been successful before Shaka.

What happens if the Kenyon college job opens.  Shaka is gone!

Quote from: Pretzel on January 14, 2013, 11:43:08 PM

NCAA Tournament History 1980-2012
VCU- total: 11, best: final four, record: 11-11
SLU- total: 5, best: second round, record: 3-5

Perspective: 5 of VCU's all-time NCAA Tournament wins came in one tournament run.

So minus the 2011 Final Four run, which, while a tremendous accomplishment for any program, and the wins over Kansas and Purdue were impressive, recall that the tourney run also included a win over Southern Cal in the play-in game, a Georgetown team that finished 8th in the Big East, and 10th-seeded Florida State. It was a Cinderella run made possible in part by a good deal of underachieving opposition.

Take that 2011 run out of the picture, and the two programs' records come to
VCU- total 10, hasn't made it past the first weekend in school history. NCAA Record is 6-10.
SLU- total 5, hasn't made it to the Sweet 16 since 1957. NCAA Record is 3-5.

The obvious criticism of this line of thought is that without Marquette's run to the Final Four in 2003, we might not have ever been invited to the Big East. Which may well be true. And yet, DePaul managed to gain an invite at the same time, despite having only won one NCAA Tournament game since 1990 and being a complete dumpster fire of a program.

The point is, if we're only making this decision on basketball, VCU's claim to fame is two weeks in March....once. Are those two weeks enough to trump the other programs considering that the Rams have made just one second-weekend appearance in their school's history? After all, VCU gained a lot of notoriety from the Final Four run, but since 2005, VCU has missed the tournament as often as they've made it. Does that make VCU the wrong choice or the right choice? I don't know.

Quote from: RTutton on January 14, 2013, 08:28:44 PM
VCU vs Dayton last week

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8365564489_9983ce290a_b.jpg)

Considering some on this board's obsession with the topic, how has nothing been said about VCU's love of banners?

Quote from: foreverwarriors on January 15, 2013, 11:40:24 AM
Considering some on this board's obsession with the topic, how has nothing been said about VCU's love of banners?

I was going to say the same thing.

Sweet #6 banner.

Looks to me like those banners have an actual accomplishment to justly advertise. Unlike our former self-promoting, musical instrument salesman, who used to reside right here in River City, my friends.

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 15, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
The point is, if we're only making this decision on basketball, VCU's claim to fame is two weeks in March....once. Are those two weeks enough to trump the other programs considering that the Rams have made just one second-weekend appearance in their school's history? After all, VCU gained a lot of notoriety from the Final Four run, but since 2005, VCU has missed the tournament as often as they've made it. Does that make VCU the wrong choice or the right choice? I don't know.

Well, then lets look at other sports too. VCU has a good men's soccer team that finished at #25 in College Soccer Poll and went to the NCAA tournament. Actually, St. Louis is a traditional soccer power, and finished ranked #12 this past season. Dayton's team, on the other hand, was not ranked and did not go to the tournament.

If you had a new conference of the C7 plus Butler, Xavier, Creighton, VCU and St. Louis, the league would have had 7 teams in the NCAA tournament this past fall:

Georgetown #2 (NCAA Runner Up)
Creighton #4 (Final Four)
Marquette #15
St. Louis #19
VCU #25
St. John's
Xavier

That's a pretty damn good soccer conference. In fact, that league would lead all conferences with bids with 7, followed by the ACC with 6 (including Pitt, Syracuse, ND and Louisville), Big Ten with 5, C-USA with 4, and the Pac 12, Big East (minus C7 and ACC bound teams), Mountain West, Big South, CAA, and Ivy League with 2 bids each.

So, again, I'd take both VCU and St. Louis over Dayton, especially with Xavier already in the mix.

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 11:41:17 AM
I was going to say the same thing.

Sweet #6 banner.

The entire VCU fan base hates it and wants it taken down. Last year we were a couple of missed free throws against Indiana away from that being reality, as there would have been a Sweet 16 banner instead.

A few pages back somebody wrote "VCU is not a commuter school"  And then someone else compared VCU to Seton Hall on admissions data.

1)  Commuter school doesnt necessarily mean crappy academics/admissions, it simply relates to the % of student body that lives on campus (many of Temple's undergrads commute and arent stellar academically, but its grad/professional programs are all highly-ranked).  

According to the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, which is the gold standard on institutional information (it's the group that gives research institutions their research designations, e.g., RUVH, RUH, i.e., Research I, Research II, etc.), Seton Hall is classified as "primarily residential," while VCU is classified as "primarily nonresidential."  For a bit of perspective, this is the same classification as UW-Milwaukee and University of Ill-Chicago.  To be fair, there are only like four categories with respect to residential makeup of the school, but nonetheless, for what it's worth, VCU is more of a commuter school than Seton Hall (but by this measure, DePaul is also classified as "primarily non-residential)

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

In any case, comparing VCU's acadmics/commutership to Seton or Depaul, etc., is futile.  The reason is that Seton and DePaul are already in the new conference, in other words, they are a "sunk cost" as it were. That is, compare yourselves to the new, potential members, not members who are already in.

However, I feel like all of this is a moot point.  Is VCU like UNLV--a mid-major turned perennial contender, or are they like GMason--a three year wonder?  EVEN IF VCU is like UNLV, should we still add them to the conference?

The answer depends on how you make the trade-off between academics and athletics. Do you want to build a national brand like the B10?  Those guys put market potential, academics, and school similarity first.  There is a reason they chose Maryland over Louisville to join the conference.  Or, do you think we should be like the BE of a couple years ago, a hodgepodge mix of institutions who are united around one goal--the best basketball games possible.

If you see the conference goal as being a smaller version of the B10 (ie, building a national identity/brand), then why not pick up Fordham (overlap with St Johns notwithstanding)?  If you really want a brand of solid academics and intitutional similarity, would you really turn down Louisville if they wanted to join (suppose for a minute that they relegated their football to FCS)?  

If you see the goal of the new conference as being a hodgepodege mix of schools solely built on bball, then yes, VCU makes sense.  But is national brand/identity and institutional similarity worth nothing?  Your division rivals are your peers to some extent.  They will be the businessmen and professional contacts with whom (avoiding the grammar police here) you will do the most networking.  If that's your goal, then PICK UP UCONN AND CINCY while they are in limbo if your sole goal is stellar bball.

We have to make a trade-off between best bball available and institutional similarity/academics. As I see it, SLU is a good balance.  They have market potential (TVs AND RECRUITING!), great academics, and while not great at basketball, they surely aren't Chicago State either.

Also, I don't buy the 'we need VCU to shed the Catholic moniker'.

1) I like bulleted lists

2) I agree that being marketed as the Catholic league is not a good idea

3) However, Butler already helps us shed the "Catholic" moniker

4) The WCC has nine schools and I'm pretty sure that all are religious; yet nobody calls them the "religious league" or their tourney spot the "Jesus bid" or anything like that (though I admit that the WCC isn't talked about a lot)

I'm guilty of it as well, but it is unfair to "discount" VCU's Final 4 run. We know how difficult it is. They should be given credit for that accomplishment.

Quote from: LittleMurs on January 15, 2013, 08:19:55 AM
Georgetown and Marquette in the Atlantic 10?  You must be visiting the Dayton forums.

I didn't mean that I thought it would actually happen...rather that we are seeking stability in a high level basketball conference. However that occurs is fine by me.

And a couple of corrections. The city of Richmond has a population of 210,000, not the metro area. The metro area (1.3 million) isn't much smaller than Milwaukee (1.5 million). The difference is that you guys have the Brewers, Packers and the Bucks, and we have VCU basketball. That allows us to dominate a very decent sized market.

Also, to me a commuter school implies that it's a place where the majority of students are locals who attended high school within 30 minutes or so of the area. I believe the number is 70%+ of students are from either DC Metro or Virginia Beach, both a 1.5-2 hour drive. Most of them live on campus their freshman or sophomore years, and then as upperclassmen, many move into the Fan/Museum District (similarish to Lincoln Park in Chicago) which borders the VCU campus. You can literally live off campus in The Fan and walk to class in 10 minutes. VCU's campus is not separated from the city in any way. It's not meant to be an enclave (like UR). Many would argue that it's not only one with the city, but it is the heartbeat of Richmond that has been essential to its rebirth.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 15, 2013, 12:23:59 PM

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

That's actually not a good way of measuring it at all.  Many alumni programs don't put an emphasis on chapter development.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 15, 2013, 12:23:59 PM

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

I don't think that is fair. Of course a private institution will have a greater national distribution. There is no instate tuition, so if I decided on going to a catholic school the cost doesn't matter as much. If I'm going to a public school I am most likely going to stay in state and save the dough. Just because its in state or close to home doesn't mean it's a commuter school.

I think parkside is a commuter school because they offered automocatic acceptance for most students and that students who went there weren't going for school but rather something to do after hs. Compare that to someone in Madison who ends up at Madison. That's a whole different story.

Hi ElDonBDon,

Thank you for the well thought out responses. I do appreciate it and have a couple counter-points:

1) Regarding the commuter stigma, I don't think it will weigh into the selection process. I do want to point out that VCU resides in a residential area within the city of Richmond (The Fan) that is surrounded by thousands of older townhouses which have been converted to apartments. A large majority of students live in this area and while technically not living on campus they still walk to class. I did it myself for 4 years. So I do understand the designation of commuter school but want to point out that most students walk to campus and do not drive.

2) Regarding academics, the comparison to Seton Hall was only to point out that a current BE7 school has the same admissions profile. This was to demonstrate that VCU wasn't lowering the academic standards of this new league. VCU also offers great post-graduate programs including a great medical school. More about ranked programs http://www.vcu.edu/ranking/

I don't believe the academic trade-off for basketball is as great as you're making it out and thus my comparison. I do believe the conference will be built on stellar basketball (no football) while maintaining high academic standards.

I do concede that SLU and probably most schools being considered have higher academic admittance standards for their students. No idea what the standards are for athletes and assume most try to get the best athletes available while adhering to NCAA academic standards.

3) A three year-wonder? Really?? I could run you through all the numbers again to discredit this statement but I won't. I'll only refer back to ESPN's ranking of Division I basketball programs over the last 50 years where VCU came in at 53 and SLU at 216 (Mason was 109).

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 03:42:12 PM
This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

Quote from: Litehouse on January 15, 2013, 04:01:33 PM
This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

It's not a deal breaker, it's reality. Do you plan to play every team twice in a 12 team league for 22 conference games? There has to be some sort of division or round robin where you play certain teams only once a year. Geographic divides make since not only from a cost perspective but giving the fans the ability to see more games that are in driving distance. This is even more important for cost reductions regarding all the other Olympic sports.

Quote from: Litehouse on January 15, 2013, 04:01:33 PM
This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

I'm okay with divisions for all sports except men's basketball. Season ticket sales would drop too much for MU having Gtown and the other Big East teams at the BMO only every other year. Divisions would be a nice deal for Butler and Xavier (and VCU if they are in) though.

Quote from: Litehouse on January 15, 2013, 04:01:33 PM
This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

I don't think it necessarily means divisions, it just means an even geographic balance. After thinking about it, if we were in the new conference, I would want a couple of primary opponents to play twice a year while rotating the other eight with home and homes (play four teams twice one season, the other four twice in the next season).

Edit: That's only eleven teams. I'm not sure how the scheduling would exactly work, but rotating the home/home opponents on a yearly basis would be fine.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 03:42:12 PM
Hi ElDonBDon,

Thank you for the well thought out responses. I do appreciate it and have a couple counter-points:

1) Regarding the commuter stigma, I don't think it will weigh into the selection process. I do want to point out that VCU resides in a residential area within the city of Richmond (The Fan) that is surrounded by thousands of older townhouses which have been converted to apartments. A large majority of students live in this area and while technically not living on campus they still walk to class. I did it myself for 4 years. So I do understand the designation of commuter school but want to point out that most students walk to campus and do not drive.

2) Regarding academics, the comparison to Seton Hall was only to point out that a current BE7 school has the same admissions profile. This was to demonstrate that VCU wasn't lowering the academic standards of this new league. VCU also offers great post-graduate programs including a great medical school. More about ranked programs http://www.vcu.edu/ranking/

I don't believe the academic trade-off for basketball is as great as you're making it out and thus my comparison. I do believe the conference will be built on stellar basketball (no football) while maintaining high academic standards.

I do concede that SLU and probably most schools being considered have higher academic admittance standards for their students. No idea what the standards are for athletes and assume most try to get the best athletes available while adhering to NCAA academic standards.

3) A three year-wonder? Really?? I could run you through all the numbers again to discredit this statement but I won't. I'll only refer back to ESPN's ranking of Division I basketball programs over the last 50 years where VCU came in at 53 and SLU at 216.

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

2. Standards for athletes doesn't matter, but overall academic fit may. Is the drop off that bad? Probably not, you certainly are not a Memphis. But SLU is significantly more well-regarded - especially among these mostly private, religious schools. They also have an outstanding medical program. Not sure how much it matters -  but it does at least some as I think these schools want to create a consistent brand (and academic similarity is certainly part of that). That and public schools haven't exactly done well by us lately, so trust may be an issue (remember, it wasn;t that long ago UCONN was a bball-only too).

3. We are well aware of SLU's history. I don't know how or why ESPN felt the need to rank to the pint of #200, but I doubt there is much difference b/t 150 and 250(just like RPI). That ranking also did happen at a very convenient time for your program -  so just saying let's not take a random off-season (aka slow news) ESPN.com ranking and make too much of it. I don't think VCU is as far ahead as many of you think (which is fair as you're still riding the high of the Final 4).

4. Would rather keep this to 12 (at least initially), but if we are going to 16 it would be very disappointing if we didn't find a way for Gonzaga to get in. Also, I think and hope the C7 want the voting power at least for the short term - so adding an additional 7 seems problematic to our interests.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But that's just it, if VCU gets an invite to the C7 conference, I don't think Shaka ever leaves. Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL. You can either be the coach that moves to a basketball school and be under constant pressure to preform, and given around 5 years to produce a championship before they start the talk about firing you, or you can be the coach who builds a dynasty like coach K. If VCU goes to the new conference, we would be able to double Shaka's salary now and give him a much larger recruiting budget. After building a new coliseum in Richmond for VCU games, there would be no incentive for him to leave.

My prediction, if VCU gets an invite, Shaka retires at VCU. If we don't get an invite and are left behind in the A-10, he's gone in 2-3 years if we are lucky.

You should never get your hopes up like that. Your coach WILL change. I don't know why Butler and VCU fans profess that their coach is the loyalest coach of all coaches, but they're not. Maybe you get lucky, but only time will tell - not a quote to ESPN. Pitt, Marquette, Xavier and much more have all lost their coaches and all had more success, were making more money, and were in better conferences. it scares me how much VCU's identity is being tied to Shaka Smart.

And Duke has far more history before K than VCU ever has.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 04:26:47 PM
2. Standards for athletes doesn't matter, but overall academic fit may. Is the drop off that bad? Probably not, you certainly are not a Memphis. But SLU is significantly more well-regarded - especially among these mostly private, religious schools. They also have an outstanding medical program. Not sure how much it matters -  but it does at least some as I think these schools want to create a consistent brand (and academic similarity is certainly part of that). That and public schools haven't exactly done well by us lately, so trust may be an issue (remember, it wasn;t that long ago UCONN was a bball-only too).

3. We are well aware of SLU's history. I don't know how or why ESPN felt the need to rank to the pint of #200, but I doubt there is much difference b/t 150 and 250(just like RPI). That ranking also did happen at a very convenient time for your program -  so just saying let's not take a random off-season (aka slow news) ESPN.com ranking and make too much of it. I don't think VCU is as far ahead as many of you think (which is fair as you're still riding the high of the Final 4).

4. Would rather keep this to 12 (at least initially), but if we are going to 16 it would be very disappointing if we didn't find a way for Gonzaga to get in. Also, I think and hope the C7 want the voting power at least for the short term - so adding an additional 7 seems problematic to our interests.

So do u want VCU or SLU????

SLU.

If we start moving to a 16 team conference (assuming no ND or Gonzaga), you and Wichita St. starting moving to the head of the class.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
It's not a deal breaker, it's reality. Do you plan to play every team twice in a 12 team league for 22 conference games? There has to be some sort of division or round robin where you play certain teams only once a year. Geographic divides make since not only from a cost perspective but giving the fans the ability to see more games that are in driving distance. This is even more important for cost reductions regarding all the other Olympic sports.

First off what other sports play as many games or more than the basketball teams (why I think Gonzaga should be considered)? Secondly, let the league and/or the network determine the 5 or 7 mirror games depending if you have a 16 or 18 game conference season like we do now.

Quote from: Pretzel on January 15, 2013, 03:42:12 PM

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

Pretz, you put together a nice narrative but lost me on the bolded parts.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 04:38:59 PM
SLU.

If we start moving to a 16 team conference (assuming no ND or Gonzaga), you and Wichita St. starting moving to the head of the class.

So tragic your is descion.... Sorry about that..... vcu>>>>slu

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 04:40:30 PM
Pretz, you put together a nice narrative but lost me on the bolded parts.

Personally the best teams are Butler Xavier and VCU.... Hands down

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 04:44:01 PM
Personally the best teams are Butler Xavier and VCU.... Hands down

But you're not biased at all, right?

Quote from: foreverwarriors on January 15, 2013, 04:49:54 PM
But you're not biased at all, right?

He may be, but he's right - the best A-10 teams are Xavier, Butler and VCU.

We love VCUBoy22 for the energy he brings to our board, but sometimes he posts first and thinks later. Take it with a grain of salt.

Quote from: Norm on January 15, 2013, 04:52:12 PM
He may be, but he's right - the best A-10 teams are Xavier, Butler and VCU.

Haha yes that is what I mean

Quote from: foreverwarriors on January 15, 2013, 04:49:54 PM
But you're not biased at all, right?

I mean in the A10 ...... Didnt make myself clear.....Not including Temple though bc they arent coming to C7

Quote from: RTutton on January 15, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
We love VCUBoy22 for the energy he brings to our board, but sometimes he posts first and thinks later. Take it with a grain of salt.

Ehhhhh ya ya I kinda do I guess ... Im getting though better lmao  ;D ;D :o 8-)

vcuboy,

In all actuality, the best teams are:

1.) Gonzaga
2.) Butler
3.) Xavier
4.) Creighton

After that the schools are a pick 'em at this point between fan message boards.

Sorry VCUboy, but Creighton > VCU.

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:04:59 PM
vcuboy,

In all actuality, the best teams are:

1.) Gonzaga
2.) Butler
3.) Xavier
4.) Creighton

After that the schools are a pick 'em at this point between fan message boards.

Wow basketball related Vcu is better than xavier... they lost to WOFFORD but ya they are more attractive as a program

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
Sorry VCUboy, but Creighton > VCU.

Ha I love to see Creighton and Doug Mcdermott face HAVOC!! Love to see that team in the tournament vs VCU

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:09:49 PM

VCU is a tier below Xavier and any rational basketball fan will tell you that.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:12:26 PM
Ha I love to see Creighton and Doug Mcdermott face HAVOC!! Love to see that team in the tournament vs VCU

Doug McDermott would crush VCU and every other C7 team.

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:13:34 PM
VCU is a tier below Xavier and any rational basketball fan will tell you that.

Doug McDermott would crush VCU and every other C7 team.

Vcu is better than xavier this year and they will prove that at Xavier
And ok Doug can go for 50 idc if VCU wins im will still be happy

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:15:29 PM
Vcu is better than xavier this year and they will prove that at Xavier
And ok Doug can go for 50 idc if VCU wins im will still be happy

It's a good thing the presidents and ADs putting this league together aren't looking at one year successes.

Fact of the matter is X has had sustained success that you have in your dreams.

If Doug McDermott goes for 50 in any game, I'll bet the estate that the Jays are winning that game.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:09:49 PM
Wow basketball related Vcu is better than xavier... they lost to WOFFORD but ya they are more attractive as a program

Definitely not about one-year results. 9 appearances in 10 years, 5 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite Eights...they deliver a consistency not many teams in the country can deliver. Three of their top four scorers are freshmen or sophomores, and once they get Myles Davis and Jalen Reynolds eligible next year, they will be a very good young team. This year is definitely a hiccup, but they're still the top team on every C7 fan's list for a reason.

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:17:22 PM
It's a good thing the presidents and ADs putting this league together aren't looking at one year successes.

Fact of the matter is X has had sustained success that you have in your dreams.

If Doug McDermott goes for 50 in any game, I'll bet the estate that the Jays are winning that game.

I never said Xavier isnt a better program haha i  clearly said they are but not this year
And ya ok whatevr you think bout Doug.. Clearly u are a big fan of him but whatevr
And Im glad you are not on c7 comittee  :D :P

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:04:59 PM
vcuboy,

In all actuality, the best teams are:

1.) Gonzaga
2.) Butler
3.) Xavier
4.) Creighton

After that the schools are a pick 'em at this point between fan message boards.

This.  If it were up to MU, and probably most C7 fans we'd invite this list (minus Gonzaga, assuming they're out) and stay at 10.  But Fox is telling us we need two more.  And will probably tell us which two they want to pay us for.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2013, 05:20:24 PM
Definitely not about one-year results. 9 appearances in 10 years, 5 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite Eights...they deliver a consistency not many teams in the country can deliver. Three of their top four scorers are freshmen or sophomores, and once they get Myles Davis and Jalen Reynolds eligible next year, they will be a very good young team. This year is definitely a hiccup, but they're still the top team on every C7 fan's list for a reason.

haha calm down i know xavier is a great program... Just not Xavier level this year since they lost alot

Quote from: chapman on January 15, 2013, 05:21:37 PM
This.  If it were up to MU, and probably most C7 fans we'd invite this list (minus Gonzaga, assuming they're out) and stay at 10.  But Fox is telling us we need two more.  And will probably tell us which two they want to pay us for.

Ya i highly doubt Gonzaga is coming just saying

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:12:26 PM
Ha I love to see Creighton and Doug Mcdermott face HAVOC!! Love to see that team in the tournament vs VCU

Is this argument about 2013 or the future conference? Cause I really don't care how good one team is just this year...and my money would be on Creighton anyways.

My personal full standings if this league has to go to 12:

1.) Gonzaga
1a.) Butler
2.) Xavier
3.) Creighton
4.) VCU
5.) SLU

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:28:09 PM
My personal full standings if this league has to go to 12:

1.) Gonzaga
1a.) Butler
2.) Xavier
3.) Creighton
4.) VCU
5.) SLU

Mine (and Butler really in front of Xavier?):

(Notre Dame)
1. Xavier
2. Gonzaga
(BYU)
3. Butler
4. Creighton
5. SLU
5a. Dayton
6. Richmond
7. VCU
7a. Wichita St

As Gonzaga won't be coming...

1) Xavier
2) Butler
3) Creighton
4) Dayton
5) VCU
6) SLU

I know Dayton is a bit of an outlier, I just think the commitment to the program, the revenue, and the fan support is unrivaled. I also love their consistency in terms of RPI. Granted, VCU has comparable RPI numbers, but the previous three seem in Dayton's favor.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 05:31:10 PM
Mine (and Butler really in front of Xavier?):

(Notre Dame)
1. Xavier
2. Gonzaga
(BYU)
3. Butler
4. Creighton
5. SLU
5a. Dayton
6. Richmond
7. VCU
7a. Wichita St

Its fine that u hate vcu alot just say it haha

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2013, 05:31:47 PM
As Gonzaga won't be coming...

1) Xavier
2) Butler
3) Creighton
4) Dayton
5) VCU
6) SLU

I know Dayton is a bit of an outlier, I just think the commitment to the program, the revenue, and the fan support is unrivaled. I also love their consistency in terms of RPI. Granted, VCU has comparable RPI numbers, but the previous three seem in Dayton's favor.
[/quote/]
Thats how the list looks for many ppl ... Interchangable vcu and dayton

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:34:52 PM
Its fine that u hate vcu alot just say it haha

Hey, they're on the list!

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 05:28:09 PM
My personal full standings if this league has to go to 12:

1.) Gonzaga
1a.) Butler
2.) Xavier
3.) Creighton
4.) VCU
5.) SLU

Ditto.

My list would be:

1. Xavier
2. Butler
3. Creighton
4. VCU
5. SLU

If Gonzaga is willing, bump SLU out and have the Bulldogs take their place.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 05:36:20 PM
Hey, they're on the list!

7th isnt really on the list

Quote from: Norm on January 15, 2013, 05:37:02 PM
My list would be:

1. Xavier
2. Butler
3. Creighton
4. VCU
5. SLU

If Gonzaga is willing, bump SLU out and have the Bulldogs take their place.

Just hope VCU gets in ;D...... But has any new articles or news in general come out bout the C7 .
The last article was this Both brand-name programs plan to begin play within two years in what could be a new 12-team, two-division conference along with five other Big East non-football-playing members — Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul and Marquette — and most likely five members of the Atlantic 10 — Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Saint Louis and VCU.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/weiss-new-conference-sju-league-article-1.1239044#ixzz2I5hFyjuQ

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 05:40:17 PM
7th isnt really on the list

Well, considering Notre Dame, BYU, and Gonzaga won't be in the mix, you can move them up a slot.

Though with a 5a in there, I suppose they're still 7th ;D

VCUBoy22's list:

1) VCU
2) Duke
3) Kentucky
4) Indiana
5) Syracuse

;)

Quote from: RTutton on January 15, 2013, 05:55:08 PM
VCUBoy22's list:

1) VCU
2) Duke
3) Kentucky
4) Indiana
5) Syracuse

;)

Ofcourse though Marquette is 7th though  ;)

Gonzaga
Xavier
Butler
Creighton
VCU
Dayton
SLU

Having been on a lot of the C7 message boards, how I see the average C7 list:

1. Xavier
2. Butler
3. Creighton
4. Dayton
5. SLU
----------------------
6. VCU

From the VCU fans perspective:

1. Butler
2. Xavier
3. Dayton
4. Creighton
5. VCU
------------------------
6. SLU

From FOX's perspective

1. Creighton
2. Butler
3. VCU
4. Xavier
5. Dayton
----------------------------
6. Gonzaga

I find it hard to believe that is Fox's perspective. 

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 06:32:17 PM

From FOX's perspective

1. Creighton
2. Butler
3. VCU
4. Xavier
5. Dayton
----------------------------
6. Gonzaga

Umm, what?

Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 15, 2013, 06:43:38 PM
I find it hard to believe that is Fox's perspective.  

I don't think FOX cares about anything but ratings.  Right now, that is the order the teams appear in the AP rankings with Xavier and Dayton being a great rivalry that they would want to keep if possible.  History has a little to do with it, but in this constantly changing conference landscape, it all what have you done for me lately (as far as viewership is concerned).

Gonzaga is out only because I don't really think anyone expects the new conference to play olympic sports on the west coast.  FOX would like to have them in a heart beat, but I think even they understand that it's too cost prohibitive.

Hope Fox likes us as much as u say

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
I don't think FOX cares about anything but ratings.  Right now, that is the order the teams appear in the AP rankings with Xavier and Dayton being a great rivalry that they would want to keep if possible.  History has a little to do with it, but in this constantly changing conference landscape, it all what have you done for me lately (as far as viewership is concerned).

Gonzaga is out only because I don't really think anyone expects the new conference to play olympic sports on the west coast.  FOX would like to have them in a heart beat, but I think even they understand that it's too cost prohibitive.

FOX doesn't give a damn about a X/Dayton rivalry. Two games that will only provide an already small, over-lapped market.

FOX would take Gonzaga over anyone else and tell the conference to deal with the other sports.

I have a headache now.

U guys see this http://marquettetribune.org/2013/01/15/news/marquette-to-help-found-new-conference-with-catholic-seven/

     Williams said July 1, 2014 is a realistic goal for withdrawal, but he hopes to finish a deal in time to legally leave the Big East by July 1, 2013.
Williams said the Catholic Seven hope to build their conference with "schools that are committed to competitive excellence, primarily in men's basketball, and also competitive excellence across a number of other team sports."

Other sports that Williams said he will value highly in prospective additions to the Catholic Seven will include women's basketball, men's and women's soccer and volleyball.

In recent weeks, universities such as Gonzaga, Dayton, Virginia Commonwealth and St. Louis have been reported as good fits for the Catholic Seven's specifications. Additionally, Williams mentioned Xavier and Butler by name as particularly logical potential members.

He also did not rule out the possibility of including non-Catholic and public schools (such as Butler), as long as their athletic programs fit the bill.

"I don't think religious affiliation, historic or current, will be determinative of someone's fit in the conference," Williams said. "One need not be religiously affiliated to be committed to excellence."

However, Williams did all but dispel the rumors regarding the inclusion of Connecticut and Cincinnati, as both universities have Division I FBS football programs. Since the Catholic Seven's conference will likely be composed of non-football schools, Connecticut and Cincinnati would likely need to play football as independents if they were to join.

I am drinking now.

Quote from: real chili 83 on January 15, 2013, 08:42:32 PM
I am drinking now.

DONT!!!!!!!

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 08:21:35 PM
FOX doesn't give a damn about a X/Dayton rivalry. Two games that will only provide an already small, over-lapped market.

FOX would take Gonzaga over anyone else and tell the conference to deal with the other sports.

If it's all about ratings, X, Butler, and Gonzaga are the top three with Creighton and VCU behind them. SLU may have the market size and Dayton the fan support, but neither move the dial nationally.

Though in this league, both have significant upside long-term, possibly more than either Butler or VCU if Stevens and Smart left.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
If it's all about ratings, X, Butler, and Gonzaga are the top three with Creighton and VCU behind them. SLU may have the market size and Dayton the fan support, but neither move the dial nationally.

Though in this league, both have significant upside long-term, possibly more than either Butler or VCU if Stevens and Smart left.

Just talked to Shaka and he said he'll stay through 2999

Quote from: real chili 83 on January 15, 2013, 08:42:32 PM
I am drinking now.

Me too.  I will also be doing so during the game tomorrow...

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 09:43:46 PM
Just talked to Shaka and he said he'll stay through 2999

So tonight we're gonna party like it's 2999...?

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
If it's all about ratings, X, Butler, and Gonzaga are the top three with Creighton and VCU behind them. SLU may have the market size and Dayton the fan support, but neither move the dial nationally.

Though in this league, both have significant upside long-term, possibly more than either Butler or VCU if Stevens and Smart left.

Agreed on all accounts.

The Dayton/X rivalry is closer to MU/DePaul than it is MU/Wisconsin. Dayton fans are serious about it, X is not so much.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
If it's all about ratings, X, Butler, and Gonzaga are the top three with Creighton and VCU behind them. SLU may have the market size and Dayton the fan support, but neither move the dial nationally.

Though in this league, both have significant upside long-term, possibly more than either Butler or VCU if Stevens and Smart left.

I think you may be wrong on Dayton. The market may not be huge, but they draw ridiculously good ratings in it.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
I think you may be wrong on Dayton. The market may not be huge, but they draw ridiculously good ratings in it.

Vcu as well draws great ratings #Havoc

A few random thoughts based on no source:

I wouldn't be shocked to see Notre Dame in the C7+.

TV $$$ will dictate the league membership as much as anything.

DePaul is beginning to waken from its slumber with a new stadium.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 10:28:59 PM
Vcu as well draws great ratings #Havoc

Why are you hashtagging on here? Not applicable.

Quote from: PTM on January 15, 2013, 11:05:05 PM
Why are you hashtagging on here? Not applicable.

(http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.9620672.9761/sticker,375x360.png)

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
I think you may be wrong on Dayton. The market may not be huge, but they draw ridiculously good ratings in it.

Locally, sure. I think both Dayton and VCU draw great local ratings, but can they draw neutral eyes 1,000 miles away? At the moment I think VCU draws more neutral eyes.

Regardless, with no Gonzaga, I would take both Dayton and VCU. I just feel SLU is less of a proven commodity than the rest of our options.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 16, 2013, 06:48:10 AM
Locally, sure. I think both Dayton and VCU draw great local ratings, but can they draw neutral eyes 1,000 miles away? At the moment I think VCU draws more neutral eyes.

Regardless, with no Gonzaga, I would take both Dayton and VCU. I just feel SLU is less of a proven commodity than the rest of our options.

Ya i think dayton is over SLU in my opinoun

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 16, 2013, 06:48:10 AM
Locally, sure. I think both Dayton and VCU draw great local ratings, but can they draw neutral eyes 1,000 miles away? At the moment I think VCU draws more neutral eyes.

Regardless, with no Gonzaga, I would take both Dayton and VCU. I just feel SLU is less of a proven commodity than the rest of our options.

Does Marquette draw neutal eyes 1000 miles away?

Quote from: bilsu on January 16, 2013, 08:07:34 AM
Does Marquette draw neutal eyes 1000 miles away?

Yes. I'm talking about college basketball fans that will turn on the TV at night and pick from the 4-5 games that are regularly on. I think that Marquette will pull in a lot more of those casual viewers than St. Louis. Similarly, Georgetown, Villanova, Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier will all also pull in those eyes.

The reason I like name-recognition programs is because we will be running up against Big Ten games, against SEC games, and others that also have name brands. We aren't as big a brand as those state schools, but I have no doubt a random viewer would sooner keep on a game with us or another school they expect to be making the tournament in a couple months than they would a game with a team that doesn't have a track record of success.

Quote from: VCUfanURgrad on January 15, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
Having been on a lot of the C7 message boards, how I see the average C7 list:

1. Xavier
2. Butler
3. Creighton
4. Dayton
5. SLU
----------------------
6. VCU

From the VCU fans perspective:

1. Butler
2. Xavier
3. Dayton
4. Creighton
5. VCU
------------------------
6. SLU

From FOX's perspective

1. Creighton
2. Butler
3. VCU
4. Xavier
5. Dayton
----------------------------
6. Gonzaga

This is objective, fair, unbiased analysis/interpretation. It is accurate even though it is contrary to your teams's best interest.

How dare you post this on an Internet message board.

Quote from: bilsu on January 16, 2013, 08:07:34 AM
Does Marquette draw neutal eyes 1000 miles away?

I think it depends on the particular game. Georgetown/Pitt/Villanova vs. Marquette is going to draw more national interest then USF/DePaul/Providence since the first set of teams and Marquette have had more recent success/better brand name recognition.

People in DC may not know where Marquette is located but they know we have a great basketball program.

Quote from: Aughnanure on January 15, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
I think you may be wrong on Dayton. The market may not be huge, but they draw ridiculously good ratings in it.

Quote from: vcuboy22 on January 15, 2013, 10:28:59 PM
Vcu as well draws great ratings #Havoc

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2012/11/60498/

Dayton #8, Richmond #20, Saint Louis #17

Quote from: bilsu on January 16, 2013, 08:07:34 AM
Does Marquette draw neutral eyes 1000 miles away?

I once met someone from Denver who said he has followed Marquette since the days of Al McGuire.  Although as the crow flies, Milwaukee is just under a 1,000 miles from Denver; however, the guy thought Marquette was in the U.P., so that would be your 1,000 miles right there.

Creighton goes up a notch in my book.

Dayton is much more apealing than I initially thought.

Quote from: MUMonster03 on January 16, 2013, 08:54:12 AM
I think it depends on the particular game. Georgetown/Pitt/Villanova vs. Marquette is going to draw more national interest then USF/DePaul/Providence since the first set of teams and Marquette have had more recent success/better brand name recognition.

People in DC may not know where Marquette is located but they know we have a great basketball program.

To me, this is really the key for the new conference.  During the Great Midwest / Conference-USA era, I don't think we drew much national interest as an unranked team playing UAB and Southern Miss.  Once we joined the Big East (and post-DWade) and we were consistently ranked and playing against other ranked teams there was a lot more attention.  People will watch marquee games between highly ranked teams, no matter who is playing.  Someone with no connection to Marquette or their opponent is not going to care if neither team is good because there will always be a better game to watch.

Quote from: Chips on January 16, 2013, 10:55:16 AM
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2012/11/60498/

Dayton #8, Richmond #20, Saint Louis #17

Is this market rating just for games watched in that market?

Just curious since I saw Milwaukee listed at .8 for MU and UW.

Also, surprised Indy is so low because that would be IU, Purdue, and Butler's biggest market.

Source: http://www.a10talk.com/2013/01/weekend-wrap-clarke-hospitalized-semaj-shines-and-uninspired-fans/

Below are the official home attendance averages according to Atlantic10.com, team record and percentage of capacity.

1. Dayton (10-6) 12,364 – 92% capacity
2. Xavier (9-6) 9,738 – 95%
3. VCU (14-2) 7,693 – 100%
4. Butler (14-2) 6,906 – 69%
5. St. Louis (12-4) 6,380 – 60%
6. Charlotte (14-2) 5,603 – 62%
7. Temple (11-4) 4,809 – 47%
8. UMass (11-4) 4,776 – 53%
9. Richmond (11-6) 4,770 – 52%
10. St. Joseph's (9-5) 4,064 – 97%
11. Rhode Island (5-10) 4,013 – 52%
12. St. Bonaventure (7-8) 3,834 – 70%
13. Duquesne (7-9) 3,032 – 68%
14. La Salle (11-4) 2,463 – 72%
15. Fordham (5-12) 2,061 – 59%
16. George Washington (7-8) 2,021 – 46%

that's Dayton's pro and con in a nutshell: big attendance numbers, so-so W-L record.

Quote from: Chips on January 16, 2013, 10:55:16 AM
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2012/11/60498/

Dayton #8, Richmond #20, Saint Louis #17

Is this data normalized for population?  In other words, could that 1.2 rating in St. Louis still have more people watching than a 2.0 rating in Dayton?

yes

Local STL TV making a push for SLU

http://www.kmov.com/sports/The-Catholic-7-and-St-Louis-University--187455451.html

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 19, 2013, 12:09:35 AM
Local STL TV making a push for SLU

http://www.kmov.com/sports/The-Catholic-7-and-St-Louis-University--187455451.html

Seems like the biggest argument for adding SLU in that article is being in a urban environment.  Not sure I buy the "great SLU basketball pedigree" bit.

This is just my own opinion, so you can argue against it all you want.

What schools like Butler, Creighton, Dayton, Saint Louis and Xavier have going for them, at least in my eyes, is not only the urban locations and basketball focus, but that they are private institutions and while some want to shy away from that aspect because of political correctness, I think this is the one thing that can help make this conference stand out nationally and in the medias eyes and let me explain.

The non-conference rivalries are great like the Wisconsin game for Marquette, but the conference season is special.  The Big East has been great for MU fans and the previous conferences have helped MU along the way, but there were always games against schools with no connection other than playing athletic events against each other and I'm talking differences in institutions, athletic offerings and even geographic reasons.   You even see the differences in established conferences like Northwestern in the Big 10, Vanderbilt in the SEC and Stanford in the Pac 12.

I think what alums and fans of schools around the country would embrace would be a conference that is being established to bring together like schools for the right reasons and not just for money and this conference has schools that are identifiable, by not only fans and alums of the schools, but also college basketball fans in general who would actually watch a conference game to see a conference that has a basketball focus and with schools that actually fit together.  That's why I favor the schools above over schools like VCU and Gonzaga, with Gonzaga out for location and VCU out because of the school profile itself.

I could actually see more alums getting interested in athletics since they could be cheering for their school because they would now be playing against the school attended by a sibling or another relative.  Look at the Diener family where you had siblings and cousins attending Marquette, DePaul and Saint Louis and from reading MU's message boards over the years, it's not unusual to have relatives attend different schools in this future conference.  The school pride issue is escalated and that leads to athletic and monetary interest.

Just one person's opinion and I'm a public university graduate saying this.

Good points Baxter, but I'd still take VCU in the league.

10 team league: C7, Xavier, Butler, Creighton.

12 team league: C7, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis, VCU.

I'd take St. Louis over Dayton for two reasons.

One, they are a traditional soccer powerhouse, have won 10 NCAA championships and been to the NCAA soccer tournament more than any other school. The 12 team league mentioned above would have had more NCAA soccer tournament bids than any other conference in the country this past season, with two schools, Georgetown and Creighton, in the final four.

Second, their media market is a lot bigger than Dayton. St. Louis is the #21 TV market with approximately 1,243,490 households. Dayton is the #63 TV market with 498,270 households. In addition, the league would already have a southwestern Ohio team in Xavier in Cincinnati, where the market is #35 with 897,890 households.

VCU is a better option for both basketball and soccer--the two main sports of this new league--than Dayton is. And St. Louis is light years ahead of Dayton in soccer.

Everyone is going to regret how much time was spent on this when they hear VCU was only "considered" in passing.

Quote from: Benny B on January 16, 2013, 11:02:45 AM
I once met someone from Denver who said he has followed Marquette since the days of Al McGuire.  Although as the crow flies, Milwaukee is just under a 1,000 miles from Denver; however, the guy thought Marquette was in the U.P., so that would be your 1,000 miles right there.

I've met multiple people in Milwaukee that didn't know Marquette was in Milwaukee. I met them in Milwaukee hotels, to be fair, but they knew about the basketball program.