Catholic 7 12th member

[chapman]

If we're adding Creighton, St. Louis is no longer some vast geographical outlier (not that it would be anyway).  And I could fart in Richmond and you'd smell it in DC, so not sure how they're suddenly so far "west" or "confederate" that they're in California or something.  Neither one is a geographical misfit or a better geographical fit than the other.  And neither is a geographical redundancy like that one school some of us want to not add, which is less desirable.

[brewcity77]

Huh? Richmond, Virginia was the capital of the Confederacy.

What C7 or prospective schools are south or east of it? Or even due west?

Richmond is certainly more centrally located than St. Louis is to the rest of the C7.

Richmond to...

Washington DC...107 mi
Philadelphia...242 mi
New York...334 mi
Newark...324 mi
Providence...514 mi
Chicago...798 mi
Milwaukee...889 mi
Average...458 mi

St. Louis to...

Chicago...296 mi
Milwaukee...373 mi
Washington DC...834 mi
Philadelphia...885 mi
Newark...941 mi
New York...951 mi
Providence...1,150 mi
Average...776 mi

What's nice about a team in Richmond is that they are well-placed to be an Eastern member of an East/West division set-up. If we went with St. Louis, that would force us to either break up a natural rival in Dayton and Xavier or push Butler into the East despite them having Dayton and Xavier east of them.

[GGGG]

Culturally, Richmond is far, far away from the home cities of the C7.

It's not 1865.  Richmond probably has more in common with some of the eastern cities than Omaha and Milwaukee.

[Avenue Commons]

... DC (Georgetown) is to the east of Richmond.

... Philly (Villanova) is to the east of Richmond.

... South Orange, NJ (Seton Hall) is to the east of Richmond.

... NYC (St. Johns) is to the east of Richmond.

Please refer to a map.

Is Ireland "east" of Florida?

What you are trying to say is that those schools/cities are more to the east than Richmond longitudinally. Those schools/cities are northeast of Richmond.

They are not "to the east" of Richmond. If someone asked for directions from Richmond and you told them to "go east" they would not hit DC, NYC, Philly, etc., they would hit the Chesapeke Bay.

[dwaderoy2004]

That is perhaps the silliest excuse for an argument I have ever heard.

[The Process]

Is Ireland "east" of Florida?

What you are trying to say is that those schools/cities are more to the east than Richmond longitudinally. Those schools/cities are northeast of Richmond.

They are not "to the east" of Richmond. If someone asked for directions from Richmond and you told them to "go east" they would not hit DC, NYC, Philly, etc., they would hit the Chesapeke Bay.

I feel kind of embarrassed for you. Your original point was obviously from a longitudinal perspective so now you're trying to shift the game now that you've been shown to be wrong by multiple posters.

Have you considered a future in politics?

[dwaderoy2004]

If we're adding Creighton, St. Louis is no longer some vast geographical outlier (not that it would be anyway).  And I could fart in Richmond and you'd smell it in DC, so not sure how they're suddenly so far "west" or "confederate" that they're in California or something.  Neither one is a geographical misfit or a better geographical fit than the other.  And neither is a geographical redundancy like that one school some of us want to not add, which is less desirable.

I never said st Louis was a geographical outlier.  I just didn't understand how it is a better geographical fit than VCU, as argued by aughnanure.

[Avenue Commons]

I feel kind of embarrassed for you. Your original point was obviously from a longitudinal perspective so now you're trying to shift the game now that you've been shown to be wrong by multiple posters.

Have you considered a future in politics?

Actually, you and they are wrong, or at least imprecise.

Do you say that DePaul is East of Marquette? No. You say Marquette is North of DePaul. Even though DePaul is more eastern longitudinally than Marquette.

Yes, I did shift the perspective, figuratively and literally, from discussing north/south and east/west. I understand their point, but the simple matter is those cities/schools are not "to the east" of Richmond. The Chesapeke Bay is to the east of Richmond.

To use their imprecision, all those schools/cities are more north than they are east.

I think this is, to a degree, a matter of semantics. But I sure hope none of you are airplane pilots.

And this is a stupid argument.

[The Process]

Yes, I did shift the perspective, figuratively and literally, from discussing north/south and east/west. I understand their point, but the simple matter is those cities/schools are not "to the east" of Richmond. The Chesapeke Bay is to the east of Richmond.

There you go.  Now you're just changing arguments because you know your first point was completely wrong.  If you say "Nothing is farther east than [insert location here]" then you're arguing solely longitudinally.

Now you're just trying to save face because you were so blatantly wrong.  Let's move on.

This argument is stupid mainly because you made such a stupid argument in the first place.  The end.

[dwaderoy2004]

Right, but according to you, since they are not on the exact same latitudinal line, Marquette is not north of DePaul, rather, they are northwest of DePaul.  If you went north of Chicago, you would run into Lake Michigan, not Milwaukee.  Saying that DePaul is east of Marquette is 100% correct.

Your original question was "What C7 or prospective schools are...east of [VCU]?"  You didn't say "to the east", or "due east".  You said "east of".  Providence, New York, DC, Philly and South Orange are all "east of" Richmond.

Agree this is a silly argument.  Let's move on.

[brewcity77]

Is Ireland "east" of Florida?

Yes.

[Aughnanure]

Richmond is certainly more centrally located than St. Louis is to the rest of the C7.

Richmond to...

Washington DC...107 mi
Philadelphia...242 mi
New York...334 mi
Newark...324 mi
Providence...514 mi
Chicago...798 mi
Milwaukee...889 mi
Average...458 mi

St. Louis to...

Chicago...296 mi
Milwaukee...373 mi
Washington DC...834 mi
Philadelphia...885 mi
Newark...941 mi
New York...951 mi
Providence...1,150 mi
Average...776 mi

What's nice about a team in Richmond is that they are well-placed to be an Eastern member of an East/West division set-up. If we went with St. Louis, that would force us to either break up a natural rival in Dayton and Xavier or push Butler into the East despite them having Dayton and Xavier east of them.

St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

[brewcity77]

St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

Personal opinion, I think St. Louis fits fine, but if it were me, I'd be deciding between them and Dayton, not them and VCU. And when I look at the profiles of Dayton and St. Louis, it's really not that close. I have a lot more faith in Dayton's ability to sustain a moderately high-level program and to hire good coaches, feel their non-revenue sports are a lot more valuable, and love how much revenue they generate. I know it makes Creighton a bit of a geographic outlier, but not so much that they don't make sense.

[Nukem2]

St. Louis is a better fit if we're adding Creighton (and we should be), and Indy. Generally, they're a better fit with the new western teams - and considering only DePaul and us of the C7 arent on the east coast, I think it works better.

What would Creighton do with its baseball program......

[Dawson Rental]

Round and round the membership threads go, when they'll stop nobody knows.

[Aughnanure]

Personal opinion, I think St. Louis fits fine, but if it were me, I'd be deciding between them and Dayton, not them and VCU. And when I look at the profiles of Dayton and St. Louis, it's really not that close. I have a lot more faith in Dayton's ability to sustain a moderately high-level program and to hire good coaches, feel their non-revenue sports are a lot more valuable, and love how much revenue they generate. I know it makes Creighton a bit of a geographic outlier, but not so much that they don't make sense.

I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

[Aughnanure]

What would Creighton do with its baseball program......

something

[dwaderoy2004]

I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

SLU doesn't have history, tradition, or recent success. They bring nothing but a TV market, hopes and dreams.

[brewcity77]

I really don't get VCU. I don't think they're better set for long-term success than either SLU or Dayton. You think they are better because of a FINAL 4 and that's it. Let's not rewrite history and pretend VCU has 'history" or tradition before that fluke.

No, that's not it. VCU has 5 NCAA appearances in the past 9 years. Aside from the Final Four win, they have 3 other NCAA wins (8 total), 2 NIT appearances, and a CBI title. For any mid-major in a one-bid league, 8 post-season tournaments in 9 years is an impressive feat.

More impressive is that they have done it under 3 different coaches. They have been trending upwards for quite awhile but few realized it because they were in the CAA.

In the same time period, St. Louis has 1 NCAA appearance, 1 NCAA win, 1 NIT appearance, and 1 CBI runner-up finish. And they did most of that under Rick Majerus, who as much as I respect the man, didn't do nearly as well at SLU as Smart, Davis, or Capel did at VCU. St. Louis had a nice run in the 1990s, but that's it. Their next coaching hire will more likely be a Brad Soderburgh than a Rick Majerus, and even if it's on par with Rick, I think that his one season with SLU as a tourney team looks like a lot more of a fluke than VCU's one run to the Final Four when you look at the history of both teams over the past decade.

[Aughnanure]

No, that's not it. VCU has 5 NCAA appearances in the past 9 years. Aside from the Final Four win, they have 3 other NCAA wins (8 total), 2 NIT appearances, and a CBI title. For any mid-major in a one-bid league, 8 post-season tournaments in 9 years is an impressive feat.

More impressive is that they have done it under 3 different coaches. They have been trending upwards for quite awhile but few realized it because they were in the CAA.

In the same time period, St. Louis has 1 NCAA appearance, 1 NCAA win, 1 NIT appearance, and 1 CBI runner-up finish. And they did most of that under Rick Majerus, who as much as I respect the man, didn't do nearly as well at SLU as Smart, Davis, or Capel did at VCU. St. Louis had a nice run in the 1990s, but that's it. Their next coaching hire will more likely be a Brad Soderburgh than a Rick Majerus, and even if it's on par with Rick, I think that his one season with SLU as a tourney team looks like a lot more of a fluke than VCU's one run to the Final Four when you look at the history of both teams over the past decade.

Am I really supposed to be jumping for joy about 5 appearances in a bad conference? Cool. Again, we are making this decision for the future not for the past 9 years. And we should not use a moderate amount of recent success as a reason to keep out a fellow institution that matches the conference's members better at ALL levels and is ready and prepared to make the jump.

You say VCU is trending upwards? You say that simply because of a Final 4. If not for that, we would view them as the same as every other mid-major we would turn our noses at including and you wouldn't be talking about a made-up metric called "trending upwards."  Guess what, SLU is too. They've invested more into their facilities than VCU has, built their own arena that's nearly twice as big, and are one of the biggest Catholics universities in the country.

And lastly no, SLU's tourney appearance is not more flukey than VCU's Final 4. That's just stupid. VCU didn't even deserve to get in the tourney in the 1st place in case you forgot.

[brewcity77]

1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.

4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

[Aughnanure]

1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.

4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

1. I have never claimed SLU is some sort of great team. I accept who they are and that this is team #5! But if we must - Sweet 16 appearances | VCU: 1 SLU: 2.

2. GW, Winthrop, Siena, Valparaiso were all also "trending upward."

3. You are the one making this "catholic league" thing some sort of issue that will define our league somehow. Not reality.

4. So you'd be impressed by that resume? Wow. Another reason why I don't overvalue resumes as the decision-maker. This is team #5. Not #1. We're choosing b/t 1 team with moderate recent success and a team with less recent success.

5. The average fan isn't watching VCU anyways, stop pretending like they are some sort of draw. When they're good, some people will pay attention more. Just like ANY team.

[brewcity77]

1. Umm...you do realize that St. Louis had to win ZERO games to make their 2 Sweet 16s, right? The field was only 16 in 1952, so every team that got a bid was in the "Sweet 16", and the field was 23 in 1957 and they didn't play the first round. Not exactly an accomplishment.

2. Don't be obtuse. VCU had more NCAA wins than GW, Winthrop, and Valpo combined over that span, even if you don't include the Final Four run. Some actually mentioned Siena, but all they had were a couple good years under McCaffrey. Shown no ability outside of that to hire a competent coach in the past decade.

3. For Catholics it won't. For some non-Catholics, it will.

4. But it's NOT team #5! You don't deliberately recruit a bad team because it's the last spot. It's like Buzz's recruiting philosophy, you recruit everyone in hopes that they will show the desire to start. I don't want us to bring in teams that don't have the ability to win this league. VCU has shown they can compete at a high level. St. Louis has not.

5. Yes, and they have been good a lot more than St. Louis has, not just over the past 10 years, but over the past 30.

[bilsu]

1. What success does St. Louis have historically? 7 Total NCAA appearances in their history, compared to 11 for VCU. Since 1980, VCU has been to the Dance 11 times, St. Louis 5. You're acting like St. Louis is some great team, but they aren't. They are crap, they have been crap, and other than for ONE YEAR under Rick Majerus, their recent history is crap since Larry Hughes left 15 years ago.

2. Yes, trending upwards. In the past 5 years, VCU has a Pomeroy average of 54.0 and RPI of 43.2. Over the same period, St. Louis has a Pomeroy average of 103.6 and 111.6. Hmm...which one of those teams has a better recent trend?

3. Being a Catholic university, for me, is a downside. I want at least one public school in this league. I want us to get away from being a religious league, which many have negative connotations with, and be a (first) basketball and (second) athletic league.
4. Even if you take the Final Four run away completely and say they went to the NIT, that's still 8 postseason appearances, 4 NCAA appearances, and 3 NCAA wins in the past 9 years compared to St. Louis' 3 postseason appearances, 1 NCAA appearance, and 1 NCAA win. Sorry, but comparably speaking, EVEN WITHOUT THE FINAL FOUR, St. Louis absolutely sucks compared to VCU.

5. This league isn't going to be about markets, it will be about eyeballs. Who do you think the average fan will more likely watch, SLU/Marquette or VCU/Marquette? SLU/Georgetown or VCU/Georgetown? Those aren't even questions. VCU will attract more interested eyes. And they at least attract some local attention in a region where neither Virginia nor Virginia Tech basketball are very compelling. SLU is surrounded by Missouri and Illinois, both of which drown them out in their own market.

I doubt that number 3 matters much. I wonder if any of MU current players are Catholic? The schools may be Catholic, but the student body is not 100% Catholic.

[brewcity77]

I doubt that number 3 matters much. I wonder if any of MU current players are Catholic? The schools may be Catholic, but the student body is not 100% Catholic.

I know that. Not so much from a recruiting perspective, but more from a drawing eyes perspective. I think the more the league seems to be about basketball and the less we hear "Catholic 7" and "Catholic League", the better. Especially if we're broadcasting nationally.