MUScoop

Not sure if this guy is legit or not, but apparently the ADs and Presidents of the Catholic 7 met in NY today to discuss breaking away- http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4188

Timetable for their decision is six months.  Interesting... that's about how long the Cathoic 7 will have enough votes to disband the conference before invitee schools gain their votes and takeaway the C7's super-majority.

FWIW, that's Mark Blaudschun's site.

Blaudschun used to be the college sports beat reporter for the Boston Globe before he took an early retirement for financial reasons a few years ago.

VERY well connected, and an excellent reporter.  If he says it, then it's true.  Blaudschun's the guy that got BC's AD to go on the record and and say that ESPN told the ACC to go after Pittsburgh and Syracuse.

Quote from: chr31ter on December 10, 2012, 10:35:31 PM
FWIW, that's Mark Blaudschun's site.

Blaudschun used to be the college sports beat reporter for the Boston Globe before he took an early retirement for financial reasons a few years ago.

VERY well connected, and an excellent reporter.  If he says it, then it's true.  Blaudschun's the guy that got BC's AD to go on the record and and say that ESPN told the ACC to go after Pittsburgh and Syracuse.

Thanks for the info on him. Very interesting development.

I just can't see the benefit in bailing. We lose the name, MSG, and the automatic bid to the NCAAs. For what? A smaller television contract and replacing UConn, Cincy, and Louisville with Xavier, Dayton, and St Louis? Maybe get Butler and VCU to get to 12, but even still can we expect much more than double what the A-10 gets? If we double their deal, we get around $500K, less than a third what we make now.

Good to keep appraised of all the rumors, but I don't see why we'd pull the plug with so much to lose.

Great that this is at least being reviewed but I hope if a new league is formed, even with the "Catholic 7" and St. Louis, Dayton, and Xavier that they think outside of the "Catholic" box.

Plenty of good schools that they may want to add one day and to limit it to Catholic schools would be a mistake.

I also wouldn't mind seeing more than just 10... Creighton and Butler would be great to add to the ten already mentioned in the article.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2012, 10:46:34 PM
I just can't see the benefit in bailing. We lose the name, MSG, and the automatic bid to the NCAAs.

[singsongy] Nuh-uh-uhhhhhh.

Thamel tweeted that Aresco was there to answer questions and that it was not a "secret" meeting.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2012, 10:46:34 PM
I just can't see the benefit in bailing. We lose the name, MSG, and the automatic bid to the NCAAs. For what? A smaller television contract and replacing UConn, Cincy, and Louisville with Xavier, Dayton, and St Louis? Maybe get Butler and VCU to get to 12, but even still can we expect much more than double what the A-10 gets? If we double their deal, we get around $500K, less than a third what we make now.

Good to keep appraised of all the rumors, but I don't see why we'd pull the plug with so much to lose.

Not sure there's all that much to lose, to be honest. These schools wouldn't be exploring this if they thought the TV contract was going to be close to the level you speak of.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2012, 10:46:34 PM
I just can't see the benefit in bailing. We lose the name, MSG, and the automatic bid to the NCAAs. For what? A smaller television contract and replacing UConn, Cincy, and Louisville with Xavier, Dayton, and St Louis?

Louisville is already gone to the ACC....

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 10, 2012, 10:46:58 PM
Great that this is at least being reviewed but I hope if a new league is formed, even with the "Catholic 7" and St. Louis, Dayton, and Xavier that they think outside of the "Catholic" box.

Plenty of good schools that they may want to add one day and to limit it to Catholic schools would be a mistake.

I also wouldn't mind seeing more than just 10... Creighton and Butler would be great to add to the ten already mentioned in the article.

We need to build the best conference possible with the best teams possible that also delivers maximum TV revenue. Setting aside quotas for Catholic schools vs. non-Catholic schools cannot be part of the equation. If Cincy, UConn, Memphis, and Temple want to come along and park their football in the MAC or something, they're more than welcome to, but I don't see that as realistic. If we're looking at private, urban, basketball-centric schools without FBS football, I think there are really three options.

The first is a 10-team league, where everyone plays each other twice in a traditional, double-round robin. Because of the smaller number of media markets, I don't see this as likely to happen, as fun as it would be.

Another outside possibility is a 16-team league, similar to the current Big East, but I don't think this happens unless Memphis, Temple, Cincinnati AND UConn are all on board, and I would be stunned if that developed.

I think the most likely scenario is a 12-team league, where everyone plays each other once and you have perhaps 5-7 mirror games. If this is the scenario, I think this is your league.

Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Saint Louis, Creighton

Adding many more schools could create a situation similar to the soon-to-be-former incarnation of the Big East, and frankly, you're at a point of diminishing returns if you want to add more schools just for the sake of "not having too many Catholics." Just examine the following other schools I've heard mentioned in these discussions.

UMass MAYBE gives you a Boston media market, but they haven't been to the NCAAs since 1998, and have finished higher than 5th in the A-10 only 3 times in the 14 years since...and they have FBS football.

Richmond, VCU, and George Mason give you a growing demographic area in DC/Virginia, but do they really give you so much more than Georgetown does in your media rights discussions that it's worth splitting the pie another 3 ways?

Temple is occasionally good but you already have exposure in that market with Villanova. Temple at least nominally has FBS football to worry about as well, just like UMass.

Yea, it'd be fun to add Gonzaga, but they would be a geographic outlier in every way possible. Their closest rival would be Creighton, a mere 1500 mile trip. Yes, South Florida is a geographic outlier in the current Big East, but they're a state school with football revenue. Gonzaga is neither.

We need to add the best teams that make sense.

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 11, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
We need to build the best conference possible with the best teams possible that also delivers maximum TV revenue. Setting aside quotas for Catholic schools vs. non-Catholic schools cannot be part of the equation. If Cincy, UConn, Memphis, and Temple want to come along and park their football in the MAC or something, they're more than welcome to, but I don't see that as realistic. If we're looking at private, urban, basketball-centric schools without FBS football, I think there are really three options.

The first is a 10-team league, where everyone plays each other twice in a traditional, double-round robin. Because of the smaller number of media markets, I don't see this as likely to happen, as fun as it would be.

Another outside possibility is a 16-team league, similar to the current Big East, but I don't think this happens unless Memphis, Temple, Cincinnati AND UConn are all on board, and I would be stunned if that developed.

I think the most likely scenario is a 12-team league, where everyone plays each other once and you have perhaps 5-7 mirror games. If this is the scenario, I think this is your league.

Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Saint Louis, Creighton

Adding many more schools could create a situation similar to the soon-to-be-former incarnation of the Big East, and frankly, you're at a point of diminishing returns if you want to add more schools just for the sake of "not having too many Catholics." Just examine the following other schools I've heard mentioned in these discussions.

UMass MAYBE gives you a Boston media market, but they haven't been to the NCAAs since 1998, and have finished higher than 5th in the A-10 only 3 times in the 14 years since...and they have FBS football.

Richmond, VCU, and George Mason give you a growing demographic area in DC/Virginia, but do they really give you so much more than Georgetown does in your media rights discussions that it's worth splitting the pie another 3 ways?

Temple is occasionally good but you already have exposure in that market with Villanova. Temple at least nominally has FBS football to worry about as well, just like UMass.

Yea, it'd be fun to add Gonzaga, but they would be a geographic outlier in every way possible. Their closest rival would be Creighton, a mere 1500 mile trip. Yes, South Florida is a geographic outlier in the current Big East, but they're a state school with football revenue. Gonzaga is neither.

We need to add the best teams that make sense.

This is exactly what I was thinking...wow...These 12 teams make sense and I would be more than happy.

Quote from: mubb34 on December 11, 2012, 12:30:31 AM
This is exactly what I was thinking...wow...These 12 teams make sense and I would be more than happy.

Agreed.  If you give me a league with those 12 teams, I'm happy and don't look back.  Not sold on UCONN or Cincy (interesting to see Tubberville leave Texas Tech for conference uncertainty) sticking around.  Cut your losses and try and solidify a conference built around similar university profiles ASAP.

Being proactive and making a move like this would at least give the initial impression that we aren't conference realignment pushovers. 

ESPN reporting on it:
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8735330/big-east-direction-concerns-conference-catholic-schools-sources-say

Quote from: Norm on December 11, 2012, 12:16:41 AM
Louisville is already gone to the ACC....

Hence why St Louis would be replacing them. Whether it's a school leaving or the Catholic schools kicking them out amounts to the same thing. It's still a school that needs to be replaced in any new model.

How many schools do we need to vote to kick everyone else out of the beast and keep the name?  How many to keep MSG?

Obviously, the ideal is to keep the Big East name and contract with the Garden. However, if it becomes a matter of controlling our own destiny, they may have to go.

3 Name alternatives that I think could work
Big North (Currently the only "Big Cardinal Direction" unused in D1)
North Star Conference (My least favorite, but with historical basis. Several of these programs used it for their women's programs in the 1980s.)
Metro Conference (Makes sense given that pretty much all conference members are in urban areas, and some are even former Metro Conference members)

3 Conference Tournament venue alternatives not under contract
Verizon Center (Washington, DC)
Wells Fargo Center (Philadelphia)
or get creative. I personally like the idea of letting the tournament's winner also winning the right to host the tournament next year.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 11, 2012, 07:08:02 AM
How many schools do we need to vote to kick everyone else out of the beast and keep the name?  How many to keep MSG?

If I understand correctly, they'd have the numbers to do so right now if Temple does not have controlling vote yet.

MSG has their own contract that it can get out of if they don't like the direction/make-up of the conference.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on these.

Please make it happen.  Good to know the non-football schools were peeved about Tulane and near having a coronary if ECU was added for everything, but how did they let it happen in the first place?  Did they not have the majority to block such a move?  And if it was close, did the football schools actually use a Louisville vote to swing it their way days before they defected?  Either way, when you have 3 votes coming from schools begging other conferences to take them but dictating your future it's about time these 7 get some balls.

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 11, 2012, 07:37:15 AM
3 Conference Tournament venue alternatives not under contract
Verizon Center (Washington, DC)
Wells Fargo Center (Philadelphia)
or get creative. I personally like the idea of letting the tournament's winner also winning the right to host the tournament next year.

And if MSG would drop them, maybe stay in NY and go with the new rusty bucket, Barclays Center in Brooklyn?  Either way, I'd prefer they kept and owned one site.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 07:43:57 AM
Please make it happen.  Good to know the non-football schools were peeved about Tulane and near having a coronary if ECU was added for everything, but how did they let it happen in the first place?  Did they not have the majority to block such a move?  And if it was close, did the football schools actually use a Louisville vote to swing it their way days before they defected?  Either way, when you have 3 votes coming from schools begging other conferences to take them but dictating your future it's about time these 7 get some balls.

And if MSG would drop them, maybe stay in NY and go with the new rusty bucket, Barclays Center in Brooklyn?  Either way, I'd prefer they kept and owned one site.

Keep one location, traveling conference tournaments are stupid.

Quote from: PTM on December 11, 2012, 07:45:03 AM
Keep one location, traveling conference tournaments are stupid.

Meh, seemed to work alright for CUSA when we were in it.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 11, 2012, 07:08:02 AM
How many schools do we need to vote to kick everyone else out of the beast and keep the name?  How many to keep MSG?

7 votes to disband.  6 votes to "sell" Big East assets (name, MSG contract, etc.) to a new conference.

Quote from: PTM on December 11, 2012, 07:45:03 AM
Keep one location, traveling conference tournaments are stupid.

+1

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 07:43:57 AM
And if MSG would drop them, maybe stay in NY and go with the new rusty bucket, Barclays Center in Brooklyn?  Either way, I'd prefer they kept and owned one site.

I really like this.  The Barclays Center is definitely going to be looking to be hosting more college basketball and I'm sure would be eager to grab a new contract.

I actually went to a Nets preseason game there a few months ago, it is a gorgeous arena.

If, by chance, they lost MSG, this new conference would be in excellent shape to make a push for the 2nd best tournament location in the US...

Indianapolis.

Yes, losing the Garden would sting, but Indy may very well be a consolation prize that's even superior to the Garden in many ways.

Quote from: PTM on December 11, 2012, 07:45:03 AM
Keep one location, traveling conference tournaments are stupid.

+1

And with Barclay's there, MSG isn't as critical and in fact it might be preferable to move to Barclay's and get a better contract, plus new conference new location.

I know I'm putting a large amount of faith on our administration to do things right, but I really do this in 6 months this league concept will be a done deal and a basketball only conference becomes a reality.  There is far too many reasons to do it and the timing is entirely too convenient not to do it.

A10 already has a contract for Barclay's.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 07:57:31 AM
If, by chance, they lost MSG, this new conference would be in excellent shape to make a push for the 2nd best tournament location in the US...

Indianapolis. 

This should be in teal right?

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 07:57:31 AM
If, by chance, they lost MSG, this new conference would be in excellent shape to make a push for the 2nd best tournament location in the US...

Indianapolis.

Yes, losing the Garden would sting, but Indy may very well be a consolation prize that's even superior to the Garden in many ways.

+1...I wouldn't complain.

But before you mentioned it, Indy I think would be a good place.  Its in the heart of the Big Ten.  Good transportation in and out.  Plus the Big Ten has failed to show their commitment to Indy as the home of their championships.  They are at the United Center this year.

Bankers Life, formerly Conseco, is a very nice venue.  I doubt you could fill a Lucas Oil...but we can be greedy  ;D

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
A10 already has a contract for Barclay's.

Yeah but if the new league has several teams from the A10, especially the high value ones, I would think Barclay's has an out.  Besides, in the short term MSG would still want a tourny there so I don't know that we'd lose MSG right away giving time to either renegotiate with MSG or move to Barclay's

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 11, 2012, 07:52:47 AM
Meh, seemed to work alright for CUSA when we were in it.

I believe it cheapens the experience. The tournament should be a destination. Rhode Island, New Jersey, Dayton and Milwaukee aren't destinations to be advertising.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
A10 already has a contract for Barclay's.



This should be in teal right?

I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Maui?

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Again, are you really being serious?

Indianapolis is a nice place, that would run a nice, efficient tournament.  But as far as an entertainment destination goes, you might as well put it in Milwaukee or Cincinnati.  Honestly, outside of basketball, there is no reason for fans from the east coast teams to travel there.

The Big East is at its heart an east coast conference.  MSG is in the heart of Manhattan.  If it can't be there, it needs to be in a place like Brooklyn, Philadelphia or Washington.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:12:14 AM

Again, are you really being serious?

Indianapolis is a nice place, that would run a nice, efficient tournament.  But as far as an entertainment destination goes, you might as well put it in Milwaukee or Cincinnati.  Honestly, outside of basketball, there is no reason for fans from the east coast teams to travel there.

The Big East is at its heart an east coast conference.  MSG is in the heart of Manhattan.  If it can't be there, it needs to be in a place like Brooklyn, Philadelphia or Washington.

Wholeheartedly agree.  Indy is quaint as a championship tourney and since it's more centrally located so I might travel there with a friend to go to the tourney.  However having it at a destination location like NYC gets me, my friend and our wives out there, gets casual fans interested from NYC, and keeps the east coast recruiting access open.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:12:14 AM

Again, are you really being serious?

Indianapolis is a nice place, that would run a nice, efficient tournament.  But as far as an entertainment destination goes, you might as well put it in Milwaukee or Cincinnati.  Honestly, outside of basketball, there is no reason for fans from the east coast teams to travel there.

The Big East is at its heart an east coast conference.  MSG is in the heart of Manhattan.  If it can't be there, it needs to be in a place like Brooklyn, Philadelphia or Washington.

+1

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/182976271.html

Another thread, but according to a well connected Hunt, MU is on-board with the bball only conference which is very encouraging.  If MU is floating this now, I suspect this is closer to reality than not.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:12:14 AM

Again, are you really being serious?

Indianapolis is a nice place, that would run a nice, efficient tournament.  But as far as an entertainment destination goes, you might as well put it in Milwaukee or Cincinnati.  Honestly, outside of basketball, there is no reason for fans from the east coast teams to travel there.

The Big East is at its heart an east coast conference.  MSG is in the heart of Manhattan.  If it can't be there, it needs to be in a place like Brooklyn, Philadelphia or Washington.

Do you really want to debate this?  I've got a slow morning in front of me and my batteries are fully recharged from the drubbing of UW this weekend.  Spin the wheel at your own risk...

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:20:53 AM
Do you really want to debate this?  I've got a slow morning in front of me and my batteries are fully recharged from the drubbing of UW this weekend.  Spin the wheel at your own risk...

I really want to debate this.  Are you just being a contrarian?  Indy has a good venue and is a small city that is easy to travel in.  However there is no reason to go there other than the tourney.  Hell look at the B1G championship that was less than 50% full this year.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 08:15:44 AM
Wholeheartedly agree.  Indy is quaint as a championship tourney and since it's more centrally located so I might travel there with a friend to go to the tourney.  However having it at a destination location like NYC gets me, my friend and our wives out there, gets casual fans interested from NYC, and keeps the east coast recruiting access open.

Add my +whatever to that. You can't have that tourney in Indy. It has to be somewhere out east. Just does. Indy has no bearing on the old-guard in that new conference. It's in the middle of B10 country. And it's not a destination/well-regarded city throughout most of the country. Sorry, but there's an economical reason for east coast bias'. It should be in NYC or Philly.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Indy is a great place, but there is one major problem.  Not one school in this proposed league is from Indy or the state of Indiana.  For that matter, very few schools in this proposed league are from the Midwest.  What makes anyone think the locals are going to support a tournament?  I get the argument about the travel for other schools, but for a conference tournament to be successful at the gate you need the local folks also.  I don't think Indy works for that reason.

Might as well have it in Vegas....I kid, but at least people would show up because of the city.

In this proposed league with the east coast corridor still very much at the heart of the matter with NYC, Philly, D.C., my guess is you have to keep it back there.  Let's also not forget if this league breaks up, the MSG loses out as well.  You might find that the MSG very much wants to do a deal for this basketball tournament even if it isn't the Big East tournament.  There is more to gain for them with a tournament of these basketball schools than ones with the leftover football schools.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:20:53 AM
Do you really want to debate this?  I've got a slow morning in front of me and my batteries are fully recharged from the drubbing of UW this weekend.  Spin the wheel at your own risk...

Yes.  I am interested as to why you think Indianapolis is anything more than a nice midwestern city.  Believe me, I am there all of the time.  It's not all that exciting.

The tourney should stay at MSG.

Otherwise, if we end up gutting the A10 by taking their best teams we should take the Brooklyn arena for our tourney along with them.

Edit:  I, too, would be disappointed with anything having to do with Indianapolis.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2012, 08:25:52 AM
Indy is a great place, but there is one major problem.  Not one school in this proposed league is from Indy or the state of Indiana.  For that matter, very few schools in this proposed league are from the Midwest.  What makes anyone think the locals are going to support a tournament?  I get the argument about the travel for other schools, but for a conference tournament to be successful at the gate you need the local folks also.  I don't think Indy works for that reason.

Might as well have it in Vegas....I kid, but at least people would show up because of the city.

In this proposed league with the east coast corridor still very much at the heart of the matter with NYC, Philly, D.C., my guess is you have to keep it back there.  Let's also not forget if this league breaks up, the MSG loses out as well.  You might find that the MSG very much wants to do a deal for this basketball tournament even if it isn't the Big East tournament.  There is more to gain for them with a tournament of these basketball schools than ones with the leftover football schools.

Well, if Butler is added we have an Indiana school... and if Creighton and SLU are added the conference is somewhat split between the coast and the midwest.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Chicago, DC, Philly, Brooklyn.

If no MSG, then maybe the tournament can be rotated amongst the schools.  

I'd hope for MSG or DC. The venue should be a destination with more than just an arena. If we had Butler and ND, I'd agree with Indy as a possible location, but a clear 3rd to the other two. Also don't like the rotating idea. Too often it would end up in a crap location.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:26:29 AM

Yes.  I am interested as to why you think Indianapolis is anything more than a nice midwestern city.  Believe me, I am there all of the time.  It's not all that exciting.

Thank you.  Watch for the thread shortly.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 11, 2012, 08:37:16 AM
Well, if Butler is added we have an Indiana school... and if Creighton and SLU are added the conference is somewhat split between the coast and the midwest.

But right now none of them are in this league.  Even if you add Butler, they are way down the pecking order to get people in Indiana excited to come out and watch people play.

More importantly, the Big Ten has their tournament there or Chicago (it alternates).  Nothing better than to have the Big Ten tournament sell out while our tournament gets 30% in the same city...nothing screams big time like that.

This is a bad idea to have it in Indy UNLESS you do an alternating East Coast and Midwest situation that is opposite the Big Ten.  Now you have something you might be able to work with.  Have the tournament in NYC and Indy every other year might work, but you need to have it in Indy when the Big Ten is not there.  Still don't think the locals will get behind this, but they will get behind it certainly more if there isn't competition from the Big Ten tournament at the same time.

Since everyone has an opinion about which city is the best, let's get a league first.  I am curious if these 7 schools have attempted to contact Butler, Xavier, and company...This whole idea could hit a dead end if we can't poach them.

Once we have a league, then we can discuss alternative sites if MSG doesn't work out.

http://visitindy.com/ (http://visitindy.com/)

I don't think the tourney location really matters.  What does matter is that the winner of the tourney gets an automatic bid to the NCAA Tourney.  Does anyone know how long it takes a new conference to earn an automatic berth to the tourney?

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Seriously Indy is the model now? Cause I really want to play in a 60,000 seat indoor (aka lame) football stadium to play a basketball game?

Jesus F*ing Christ. That town has more major sporting events that it has ever deserved.

Chicago, DC, or NY. Those are the options.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 08:49:03 AM
Seriously Indy is the model now? Cause I really want to play in a 60,000 seat indoor (aka lame) football stadium to play a basketball game?

Jesus F*ing Christ. That town has more major sporting events that it has ever deserved.

Chicago, DC, or NY. Those are the options.

In Indy's defense, there are reasons they host events there.  There are a lot of hotel rooms close to the athletic facilities, they do these events well, Indy is easy to get to, and it is relatively cheap.  But it's just not all that exciting.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 08:51:55 AM

In Indy's defense, there are reasons they host events there.  There are a lot of hotel rooms close to the athletic facilities, they do these events well, Indy is easy to get to, and it is relatively cheap.  But it's just not all that exciting.

Right city, wrong facility.

I know it doesn't make sense from an economic standpoint, but I think Hinkle Fieldhouse at Butler is the coolest place to play basketball ever.

I haven't spent any time in Indy, but have have heard from people who plan events and sporting events that it is a great.

Not sexy like NYC, but logistically, it's supposed to be very good for the planners and for the attendees.

Take that for what it's worth.

With this said, the "new conference" might need to make a sexier pick.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 08:49:03 AM
Seriously Indy is the model now? Cause I really want to play in a 60,000 seat indoor (aka lame) football stadium to play a basketball game?

Jesus F*ing Christ. That town has more major sporting events that it has ever deserved.

Chicago, DC, or NY. Those are the options.

Yes. Indy is the model for hosting major sporting events (Super Bowl, Final Fours, Indy 500,used to be voted the favorite tennis tournament by players...). That being said, it does not make sense to hold the Big East Tourney there. The Big East tourney needs to be played in NY.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 11, 2012, 09:05:04 AM

With this said, the "new conference" might need to make a sexier pick.

This is it. Indy is not sexy, practical, but not sexy at all.

Glad to see MU is on board with the bball-only conference concept. As long as we take Georgetown with us, I'm all for it. MU and GTown would need to carry the league for a few years until some of the other schools get back on their feet.

Quote from: bkooncy on December 11, 2012, 08:48:48 AM
I don't think the tourney location really matters.  What does matter is that the winner of the tourney gets an automatic bid to the NCAA Tourney.  Does anyone know how long it takes a new conference to earn an automatic berth to the tourney?

I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

Or is another twist going on?  The C-7 wants to add good basketball schools to the Big East to improve the basketball side by using the threat of splitting off. 

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

Not exactly... You need 75% of the vote to kick out a school, and even then, it must be for cause.  With ten voting members currently, you need 7.5 votes to dismiss a school.

The writing has been on the wall for this to happen since the ACC took Syracuse and Pittsburgh and West Virginia went to the Big 12.  However, it was important to let the other chips fall first.  Now that Notre Dame, Louisville, and Rutgers are leaving, this is starting to happen.

I hope this does come to fruition because I was worried about Georgetown, Villanova, and St Johns going to the ACC as non-football to match with Notre Dame's situation.  Those three, along with Marquette, are bigger "brands" than DePaul, Providence, and Seton Hall right now.

Although all of the schools listed are Catholic, I hope that it's not officially branded as such. No need to keep yourself away from public or non-Catholic schools should some schools move around in the future.

Now that the rumors have started, it's only a matter of time!

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 09:21:49 AM
Not exactly... You need 75% of the vote to kick out a school, and even then, it must be for cause.  With ten voting members currently, you need 7.5 votes to dismiss a school.

My understanding was it is a straight two thirds vote to accomplish a split.

Quote from: slack00 on December 11, 2012, 09:24:37 AM

Although all of the schools listed are Catholic, I hope that it's not officially branded as such. No need to keep yourself away from public or non-Catholic schools should some schools move around in the future.

I like the Catholic branding... it provides an immediate fan base and sticks it to ND for leaving. There aren't that many non-catholic basketball-only schools worth having.

What a conference name of The B1G EAST.  I kid, I kid  ;D

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:26:07 AM
My understanding was it is a straight two thirds vote to accomplish a split.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

3/4 to dismiss, 2/3 to dissolve, and simple majority to divvy up the assets upon dissolution.  And the basketball schools have no say on football matters (except that they can "force a tie" to effectively veto a football-only invitation), so they can't simply vote to discontinue football.

Additionally, a conference must have seven active Division I members that sponsor men's and women's basketball and sponsor a minimum of six men's sports and six women's sports to retain an automatic bid.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:26:07 AM
My understanding was it is a straight two thirds vote to accomplish a split.

In either case if one more football school leaves in the next 6 months they can kick teams out.

If we lost our automatic bid to the tournament would it be possible to file a law suit against the NCAA claiming that they did nothing to stop the pillaging of conferences, making it unable for non-football schools to prosper in the current format?  If the new conference was able to do this do you think the NCAA would grant us an auto bid?

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 09:29:41 AM
3/4 to dismiss, 2/3 to dissolve, and simple majority to divvy up the assets upon dissolution.  And the basketball schools have no say on football matters (except that they can "force a tie" to effectively veto a football-only invitation), so they can't simply vote to discontinue football.

Additionally, a conference must have seven active Division I members that sponsor men's and women's basketball and sponsor a minimum of six men's sports and six women's sports to retain an automatic bid.

Ok, lets change my language then.  For the next 6 months they have the ability to dissolve the conference and then divvy up the assets amongst the group.  Automatic bid would stay with the group because they will meet the requirements you've laid out eliminating concern number one.  First asset priority is the MSG contract, second is the Big East name.  There is also a ton of dough from the exit fees of previous schools to split.  Divide that up and then reincorporate as a new conference with either the BEast name or a new one and then invite schools and you are off.

Quote from: bkooncy on December 11, 2012, 09:30:47 AM
If we lost our automatic bid to the tournament would it be possible to file a law suit against the NCAA claiming that they did nothing to stop the pillaging of conferences, making it unable for non-football schools to prosper in the current format?  If the new conference was able to do this do you think the NCAA would grant us an auto bid?

We won't lose our auto bid as long as we meet the criteria Benny laid out, which under every current scenario is not an issue.

Let's be sure we don't recognize that this more aggressive move is the result of our AD.

Quote from: sixstrings03 on December 11, 2012, 09:45:48 AM
Let's be sure we don't recognize that this more aggressive move is the result of our AD.

More aggressive move or only logical play?  To paraphrase Chris Rock, "you don't get credit for something you're 'spose to do, you low expectation having....."   ;D

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 08:08:29 AM
I challenge you to find a better tournament locale than Indy.

Isn't Indy permanent (or least into the foreseeable future) host of the Big ? tournament?
If so, I can think of about a dozen places I'd rather host the tournament rather than play second fiddle in Indy.
Chicago, for starters.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:49:56 AM
More aggressive move or only logical play?  To paraphrase Chris Rock, "you don't get credit for something you're 'spose to do, you low expectation having....."   ;D

Larry could rescue six children from a burning building and people here would complain he didn't save their aquarium. Poor fishies.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2012, 09:54:33 AM
Larry could rescue six children from a burning building and people here would complain he didn't save their aquarium. Poor fishies.

I'm not ripping Larry, he is doing his job here, great, glad he's earning his salary.  Why should I do backflips over something we've been talking about doing for 6 months?

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:56:47 AM
I'm not ripping Larry, he is doing his job here, great, glad he's earning his salary.  Why should I do backflips over something we've been talking about doing for 6 months?

+1

Quote from: M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS on December 11, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
What a conference name of The B1G EAST.  I kid, I kid  ;D

BIG EASt. The lower case 't' is actually a crucifix.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
Ok, lets change my language then.  For the next 6 months they have the ability to dissolve the conference and then divvy up the assets amongst the group.  Automatic bid would stay with the group because they will meet the requirements you've laid out eliminating concern number one.  First asset priority is the MSG contract, second is the Big East name.  There is also a ton of dough from the exit fees of previous schools to split.  Divide that up and then reincorporate as a new conference with either the BEast name or a new one and then invite schools and you are off.

This is exactly what I'm advocating is at the top of the C7's discussion agenda right now.

Quote from: M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS on December 11, 2012, 09:30:19 AM
In either case if one more football school leaves in the next 6 months they can kick teams out.

Come on, Cincy.

'But a number of sources couldn't confirm whether Temple, which is a football-only member this season, has a controlling vote. One Big East source said Temple has a vote on football issues but wasn't sure whether the Owls could use that vote for membership. If the Owls could, Temple likely would be the fourth vote preventing any dissolving of the league.'

This is the key to the puzzle.  Lawyers for the Catholic 7 must seemingly understand the window of control wem think they might have.  It would be very interesting to know exactly what rights Temple currently has.  I'd be working very hard to find a legal path toward continuing control of the BEast name and assets.  I'd even consider 'buying off' Temple if they truly have a controlling vote at this time.  Expect a Catholic 7 decision/announcement late in their window of opportunity, if one exists.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 11, 2012, 07:41:37 AM
If I understand correctly, they'd have the numbers to do so right now if Temple does not have controlling vote yet.

MSG has their own contract that it can get out of if they don't like the direction/make-up of the conference.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on these.

I think the football conference Temple thought they were joining is falling apart. I also think they joined Big East for basketball and not football. I could see Temple voting with basketball schools, if they were guaranteed a spot in the new league.

 how about a national catholic conference except for Notre Dame and Boston College we can make them feel lame for having Football an Hockey

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 11, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
We need to build the best conference possible with the best teams possible that also delivers maximum TV revenue. Setting aside quotas for Catholic schools vs. non-Catholic schools cannot be part of the equation. If Cincy, UConn, Memphis, and Temple want to come along and park their football in the MAC or something, they're more than welcome to, but I don't see that as realistic. If we're looking at private, urban, basketball-centric schools without FBS football, I think there are really three options.

The first is a 10-team league, where everyone plays each other twice in a traditional, double-round robin. Because of the smaller number of media markets, I don't see this as likely to happen, as fun as it would be.

Another outside possibility is a 16-team league, similar to the current Big East, but I don't think this happens unless Memphis, Temple, Cincinnati AND UConn are all on board, and I would be stunned if that developed.

I think the most likely scenario is a 12-team league, where everyone plays each other once and you have perhaps 5-7 mirror games. If this is the scenario, I think this is your league.

Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Saint Louis, Creighton

Adding many more schools could create a situation similar to the soon-to-be-former incarnation of the Big East, and frankly, you're at a point of diminishing returns if you want to add more schools just for the sake of "not having too many Catholics." Just examine the following other schools I've heard mentioned in these discussions.

UMass MAYBE gives you a Boston media market, but they haven't been to the NCAAs since 1998, and have finished higher than 5th in the A-10 only 3 times in the 14 years since...and they have FBS football.

Richmond, VCU, and George Mason give you a growing demographic area in DC/Virginia, but do they really give you so much more than Georgetown does in your media rights discussions that it's worth splitting the pie another 3 ways?

Temple is occasionally good but you already have exposure in that market with Villanova. Temple at least nominally has FBS football to worry about as well, just like UMass.

Yea, it'd be fun to add Gonzaga, but they would be a geographic outlier in every way possible. Their closest rival would be Creighton, a mere 1500 mile trip. Yes, South Florida is a geographic outlier in the current Big East, but they're a state school with football revenue. Gonzaga is neither.

We need to add the best teams that make sense.

I like your 12, but to be clear Richmond/VCU is not the DC market. It's the Richmond/Williamsburg market. I don't get the George Mason idea though at all -that's right outside DC...why would Georgetown even consider it?

I do like the idea of adding VCU/Richmond though...but that probably happens only in a 15 or 16 team league.

Given where we are, this is outstanding news.  Love the 12 team proposal, including non -Catholic schools

A couple of other comments. 

Not sure why we should care about the automatic bid?  Since we have been at a 64 (plus) team tourney, at least one of the contemplated members (he says boldly without any research) has received an at-large bid every year.  Don't see this changing even if our conference RPI takes a hit.

If no MSG, then Brooklyn.  The A-10 would be done.

If no Big East name, Big Metro/Metro North or some such.

But do everything possible to maintain BE and MSG.

I would also suggest a "reverse buy-out" of the remaining football schools with what would be their share of the money paid by the schools that have left.  Avoids litigation, cound entice them out if the bball schools do not have the vote and it would be fair.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

I remember hearing a year ago that if a new conference had at least 6 schools that have played together for at least 7 years in an auto-bid conference that the new conference formed would not have to wait for an NCAA auto-bid. Or something like that.

What worries me the most about this whole football mess is the NCAA basketball tournament. I think eventually the four super BCS football conferences will break away and have their own basketball tournament.

If this is going to happen, the new conference needs to be marketed heavily as the basketball conference. New, fresh ideas need to be brought up. If Georgetown is going after a 5 star recruit against Duke, Carolina, the new conference coaches (in my opinion) would need to help recruit that kid to Georgetown. Conference tourney shouldn't be in Indy, NYC, Chicago. It's spring break, get after it, have it at Atlantis. Come up with some one day, pre-season gimmick event.

Basketball is the steak, have to find ways to sell the sizzle.

Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
What worries me the most about this whole football mess is the NCAA basketball tournament. I think eventually the four super BCS football conferences will break away and have their own basketball tournament.

Now THAT would be a bold move... and also likely doom the sport

Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
What worries me the most about this whole football mess is the NCAA basketball tournament. I think eventually the four super BCS football conferences will break away and have their own basketball tournament.

I think the new tournament would lose legitimacy and any effort to break-away is going to face many serious political and legal challenges. I also think that the tournament loses a lot of its luster if it tried to kick out the Cinderella teams and stories that are a big draw for the casual fans.

And not allowing schools like Marquette, Georgetown, Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, etc to compete in it would damage the legitimacy of the tournament. It's also not as fun if all 64 teams from the 4x16 conferences get in automatically. Selection Sunday and the bubble are vital for NCAA tournament interest.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 10:44:35 AM
I think the new tournament would lose legitimacy and any effort to break-away is going to face many serious political and legal challenges. I also think that the tournament loses a lot of its luster if it tried to kick out the Cinderella teams and stories that are a big draw for the casual fans.

And not allowing schools like Marquette, Georgetown, Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, etc to compete in it would damage the legitimacy of the tournament. It's also not as fun if all 64 teams from the 4x16 conferences get in automatically. Selection Sunday and the bubble are vital for NCAA tournament interest.

We sports fans also sometime forget that for an event like the NCAA tournament, the vast majority of the fans are "casual fans".  They would kill the golden goose if they attempted this.  Not saying they wont be stupid enough to try though...

I've said as recently as a few weeks ago that they should hold out and hope for an invitation to one of the big 5 conferences, but I've now been convinced that dissolving the Big East and re-forming as the best possible basketball conference is the only solution at this point.  The Big 12 isn't calling and we need to create an environment worth staying in.  If Georgetown and Villanova are willing to join and stay in a new non-football Big East then we should do it.  It won't be as great a league but its the best we could do at this point.  It will be less money now, but honestly with where the Big East is headed the money isn't going to be around for long anyway.  Cincinnati and UConn will find a way to leave eventually.

Quote from: M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS on December 11, 2012, 10:53:02 AM
We sports fans also sometime forget that for an event like the NCAA tournament, the vast majority of the fans are "casual fans".  They would kill the golden goose if they attempted this.  Not saying they wont be stupid enough to try though...

While it would seriously damage the tournament's popularity, it would still be a gigantic moneymaker for those 64 teams. Imagine if they were able to broadcast the tournament on their conference networks? There wouldn't be as much total money in the tournament, but instead of the NCAA making all the money, that money would go directly to those 64 schools.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on December 11, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
While it would seriously damage the tournament's popularity, it would still be a gigantic moneymaker for those 64 teams. Imagine if they were able to broadcast the tournament on their conference networks? There wouldn't be as much total money in the tournament, but instead of the NCAA making all the money, that money would go directly to those 64 schools.

Totally agree that it would be a huge moneymaker for the big four conferences. Also have to say that setting up four 16 team conferences sets up a basketball (and football?) tournament nicely. But I'm not sure alienating half of the college sports fans in the country would be wise. I know that I for one would boycott college sports altogether if they were to do it and I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on December 11, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
While it would seriously damage the tournament's popularity, it would still be a gigantic moneymaker for those 64 teams. Imagine if they were able to broadcast the tournament on their conference networks? There wouldn't be as much total money in the tournament, but instead of the NCAA making all the money, that money would go directly to those 64 schools.

Regular season games for bball would likely generate almost nothing if they did this.  The majority of the giant pie already goes to these conferences.  The pie would be cut by more then half if they did this.  The only reason they would do this is to exclude the other schools.  Again, maybe they would but the money they would earn I would guess would go down.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on December 11, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
While it would seriously damage the tournament's popularity, it would still be a gigantic moneymaker for those 64 teams. Imagine if they were able to broadcast the tournament on their conference networks? There wouldn't be as much total money in the tournament, but instead of the NCAA making all the money, that money would go directly to those 64 schools.

and we already know those 64 schools put money before tradition.

Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
What worries me the most about this whole football mess is the NCAA basketball tournament. I think eventually the four super BCS football conferences will break away and have their own basketball tournament.

Not likely. The whole reason the BCS setup had to include the kind of loopholes that have allowed Northern Illinois, Hawaii, etc., into BCS games is to avoid antitrust issues. Those same issues likely would arise should some conferences try to exclude other conferences/programs.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 10:44:35 AM
I think the new tournament would lose legitimacy and any effort to break-away is going to face many serious political and legal challenges. I also think that the tournament loses a lot of its luster if it tried to kick out the Cinderella teams and stories that are a big draw for the casual fans.

The possibility of a breakaway has already been contemplated in Frankfort, and if such came to fruition, it's quite likely that UK would not be participating in the breakaway tourney.

I'm not sure if another state legislature would take action to prevent this from happening, but there would be a lot of pressure especially down south.  Kentucky has 7 D-I schools in basketball, Louisiana has 12, North Carolina has 18, California has 24.  I wouldn't be surprised to see these states bar the "flagships" from participation in order to protect the more numerous small and mid-major D-I schools who would be devastated by a breakaway (tournament shares are paid to the smaller conferences, too - not to mention that buy games for these schools fund an entire year of athletics for many).

So if a BCS tournament wants to be played without the likes of Kentucky, Louisville, UNC, NC State, LSU, UCLA... more power to them.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on December 11, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
There wouldn't be as much total money in the tournament, but instead of the NCAA making all the money, that money would go directly to those 64 schools.

Ummm.... the NCAA basketball money already goes to the schools.  You're thinking football where little money goes to the schools, none to the NCAA, and most in the pockets of ESPN and the bowl game CEOs.

MORE teams in the NCAA tourney, not less, is where the $$$ is.   The debate has been about expanding the tourney to 96 and 128, not subtracting teams and making it smaller.   If the 4 superconferences would break away it would make for a glorified conference tourney and kill the marketing goldmine that is "March Madness".   There is no way this happens.  

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 11, 2012, 07:37:15 AM
Obviously, the ideal is to keep the Big East name and contract with the Garden. However, if it becomes a matter of controlling our own destiny, they may have to go.

3 Name alternatives that I think could work
Big North (Currently the only "Big Cardinal Direction" unused in D1)
North Star Conference (My least favorite, but with historical basis. Several of these programs used it for their women's programs in the 1980s.)
Metro Conference (Makes sense given that pretty much all conference members are in urban areas, and some are even former Metro Conference members)

3 Conference Tournament venue alternatives not under contract
Verizon Center (Washington, DC)
Wells Fargo Center (Philadelphia)
or get creative. I personally like the idea of letting the tournament's winner also winning the right to host the tournament next year.

Not a fan of any of those names...they sound small time.

What about Catholic 12? C-12.....or borrowing from Chicago High School sports...Catholic League...I know Butler isn't Catholic....but Wisconsin isn't exactly "East" either (as in Big East)

If the football schools teams abandon the NCAA for a college football system that is not associated with the NCAA in any way, wouldn't the NCAA penalize the institutions that did so for other sports?

i.e. Lets say the Big 4 conferences split away for football. Could those schools keep their non-football sports in the NCAA?

My real thought is that if major-conference football breaks away, wouldn't major-conference basketball be *forced* to break away too?

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 11, 2012, 11:41:31 AM
If the football schools teams abandon the NCAA for a college football system that is not associated with the NCAA in any way, wouldn't the NCAA penalize the institutions that did so for other sports?

i.e. Lets say the Big 4 conferences split away for football. Could those schools keep their non-football sports in the NCAA?

My real thought is that if major-conference football breaks away, wouldn't major-conference basketball be *forced* to break away too?

Yes especially when those Big 4 conference agree to start paying their football and basketball players.

From the Georgetown board....

"From a reliable source (hopefully more reliable than the Nerlens source ): The catholic schools are seriously considering splitting. While maintaining the Big East brand as their own. In addition, they would like to add St Louis, Xavier, Dayton, Butler and VCU. But the kicker I found interesting was that they believe they can also add Cinci, Uconn, Temple, and Memphis, rendering the current Big East football members to a football only conference which many believe would be better anyway. Ultimately the New Big East would have 16 members in all sports (minus football of course). They would keep MSG for conference tourney. Would have markets in NY, Chicago, DC, Philly, among others. And would be a competitive top 5 basketball conference that also allows for other sports to keep a more regional schedule. In addition, ESPN has hinted that they would be willing to pay somewhere in the range of 20-25 million for this arrangement, which would be similar to any deal that they would get by remaining in the current set up. Found it all interesting. Thought Id share...."

http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index...d=26309&page=4

Benny, could you please explain a little more precisely how the 6-vote asset division would work?  Let's say the C-7 teams do vote to dissolve.  Then that means those same 7, after dissolving, can vote to "sell" the Big East brand, MSG rights, etc. to themselves, thus creating a new Big East? 

I'm interested in what specifically would have to happen (and what are potential roadblocks) to retain the Big East brand, since I believe that is a crucial consideration in this whole thing.

Officially a no-brainer:

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4202

QuoteBut if they do decide to leave as a group, they will not have to pay an exit fee. A rule that was put in place almost a decade ago when the Big East lost Virginia Tech, Miami and then Boston  College to the ACC, stipulates that should the football or basketball segments of the league want to break away as a group no exit fees will be imposed. Schools leaving the Big  East on an individual basis have had to pay between $5 and $17 million.

With the seven Catholic schools talking about leaving the Big East as a group, the no exit fee clause would apply.

In addition, the Catholic schools would most likely be able to retain the Big East name as a conference, they would also be likely to retain the automatic NCAA tournament bid given to the Big East since they would be a group of schools who have established a long history of competition against each other.

And this ""new"" group would most likely still be able to collect the financially valuable units the NCAA gives to  conference schools who perform well in the NCAA tournament.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:56:47 AM
I'm not ripping Larry, he is doing his job here, great, glad he's earning his salary.  Why should I do backflips over something we've been talking about doing for 6 months?

How do we know Larry hasn't been doing this for the last 9 months?

Quote from: muguru on December 11, 2012, 11:58:08 AM
From the Georgetown board....

"From a reliable source (hopefully more reliable than the Nerlens source ): The catholic schools are seriously considering splitting. While maintaining the Big East brand as their own. In addition, they would like to add St Louis, Xavier, Dayton, Butler and VCU. But the kicker I found interesting was that they believe they can also add Cinci, Uconn, Temple, and Memphis, rendering the current Big East football members to a football only conference which many believe would be better anyway. Ultimately the New Big East would have 16 members in all sports (minus football of course). They would keep MSG for conference tourney. Would have markets in NY, Chicago, DC, Philly, among others. And would be a competitive top 5 basketball conference that also allows for other sports to keep a more regional schedule. In addition, ESPN has hinted that they would be willing to pay somewhere in the range of 20-25 million for this arrangement, which would be similar to any deal that they would get by remaining in the current set up. Found it all interesting. Thought Id share...."

http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index...d=26309&page=4

I'd wet myself if this unfolds.  Also another point, that it's for the C7 to decide as well as far as those leftover football schools.  Strong basketball programs, they aren't all going to get into the ACC or Big 12 even if everyone goes to 16 (esp. Temple and Memphis), if their football program is going to drown in the MAC or CUSA they don't want to cast their basketball fate into that situation as well.  Do you take a couple strong basketball programs that doen't fit the profile of the other members?

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 12:13:20 PM
Do you take a couple strong basketball programs that doen't fit the profile of the other members?

Yes...which is exactly why I think bootstrapping yourself to only Catholic schools is the dumbest thing ever.

I'm 100% on board with bball only conference. It's high time for hoops schools to say enough is enough with minor league football ruining the sport. With the C-7 + Xavier, Dayton, Creighton, SLU, and Butler, there's a lot of great basketball in that league, with some room to expand too.

Quote from: foreverwarriors on December 11, 2012, 12:21:13 PM
Yes...which is exactly why I think bootstrapping yourself to only Catholic schools is the dumbest thing ever.

However, I do *not* think taking a school for all sports but football is a good idea. That's just a recipe for instability.

I think Cincy and UCONN get left out.  Yes they have bball programs and the new Big East could accommodate, but they are publicly campaigning to leave.  Let them leave.  If they become homeless, not our fault right?

Quote from: Babybluejeans on December 11, 2012, 12:04:33 PM
Benny, could you please explain a little more precisely how the 6-vote asset division would work?  Let's say the C-7 teams do vote to dissolve.  Then that means those same 7, after dissolving, can vote to "sell" the Big East brand, MSG rights, etc. to themselves, thus creating a new Big East?  

I'm interested in what specifically would have to happen (and what are potential roadblocks) to retain the Big East brand, since I believe that is a crucial consideration in this whole thing.

From the Big East by-laws:

ARTICLE XII - DISSOLUTION
12.01 Dissolution. The Conference may be dissolved upon a vote of at least two-thirds of all Directors. In the event of dissolution of the Conference, the Board, by a vote of a majority of all Directors present and eligible to vote, shall determine the basis for liquidation of Conference assets, if any, and the allocation, following the satisfaction of all Conference obligations, of net assets, as provided for in the Articles.
(Also see http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34636.msg424594#msg424594 for my interpretation of the by-laws.)

Basically, the CEO's of the ten voting members (C7 + USF, UCONN, Cincy) get together in Breakout Room 2A at the Holiday Inn Express.  There is one "Director" for each school, and one vote for each Director.  All ten Directors comprise the Board.  

First, the Board votes to dissolve.  C7 votes unanimously to dissolve, which needs a 2/3 majority.  Once the dissolution vote is taken, the Board then must vote as to how to liquidate the assets.  C7 votes unanimously to sell all assets of the Big East Conference to BEC LLC for ten dollars* and split the proceeds amongst the members (which only requires a majority of votes present, or 6 in this case).  Each Director is then given their dollar, and the meeting adjourns.  UCONN, Cincy and USF walk out in disgust, and once they're gone, the banner on the wall that says "Big East Conference" is flipped over to read "BEC LLC."  The meeting of BEC LLC is called back to order (having been in recess since 15 minutes before the dissolution vote), ratifies the purchase of the Big East assets and opens the movable wall separating Room 2A from 2B, where the CEO's from Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St Louis, etc. just happen to be comfortably seated sipping their complementary coffee.  BEC LLC then votes to change its name to Big East Conference, the banner is flipped back over, and a vote is taken to invite the new members.  NCAA is notified that UCONN, Cincy and USF are no longer members of the Big East.  MSG is given a change-of-address notice for all matters pertaining to its contract with the Big East.  And the new members walk down to Breakout Room 4 where representatives from ESPN, NBC, CBS, Fox Sports, Google, Apple, etc. are patiently awaiting the auction for TV rights to begin.

Once everything has concluded, Billy from the front desk calls to tell everyone they need to get out or else he has to charge them for another day's room rental.

*Pick a number.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2012, 12:09:32 PM
How do we know Larry hasn't been doing this for the last 9 months?

Nah, he's clearly spending a few days a week in St. Louis taking notes on how to be like them, taking in ND football games and alumni dinners, and spending the rest of his time at Lids buying more super cool hats.

/teal

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 11, 2012, 12:21:28 PM
I'm 100% on board with bball only conference. It's high time for hoops schools to say enough is enough with minor league football ruining the sport. With the C-7 + Xavier, Dayton, Creighton, SLU, and Butler, there's a lot of great basketball in that league, with some room to expand too.

Agreed.  For a long time I said we should hang in there as long as we can.  But if we can be proactive and put together this league and get a TV deal I'd say do it as soon as possible.  It's a great basketball conference that suits us perfectly.  I don't really care where they play the conference tournament, but I love the Barclay's Center idea.  No, it doesn't have the history of MSG, but it's a hell of a lot nicer.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2012, 12:09:32 PM
How do we know Larry hasn't been doing this for the last 9 months?

Or... how do we know that Larry wasn't the one that got the C7 off their collective rears the day after he was hired?

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 11, 2012, 12:22:22 PM
However, I do *not* think taking a school for all sports but football is a good idea. That's just a recipe for instability.

My saying that was more so that schools like VCU and Butler would be seen as acceptable.

Quote from: INDYWarrior on December 11, 2012, 12:25:27 PM
I think Cincy and UCONN get left out.  Yes they have bball programs and the new Big East could accommodate, but they are publicly campaigning to leave.  Let them leave.  If they become homeless, not our fault right?

Yep, don't think Memphis and Temple will have many other options and would rather be with these schools and dump football elsewhere.  As far as Cincy and UConn, put the ball in their court: if they want to sign up we'll take them, but signing up involves agreeing to pay an exit fee that the happy basketball schools are going to keep nice and high.  If you've got a stable "core" of 7-12 it's not like one or two defections cause mass chaos in the conference or the 7-12 team core to go and invite Tulane and SMU as replacements.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 12:26:24 PM
From the Big East by-laws:

ARTICLE XII - DISSOLUTION
12.01 Dissolution. The Conference may be dissolved upon a vote of at least two-thirds of all Directors. In the event of dissolution of the Conference, the Board, by a vote of a majority of all Directors present and eligible to vote, shall determine the basis for liquidation of Conference assets, if any, and the allocation, following the satisfaction of all Conference obligations, of net assets, as provided for in the Articles.
(Also see http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34636.msg424594#msg424594 for my interpretation of the by-laws.)

Basically, the CEO's of the ten voting members (C7 + USF, UCONN, Cincy) get together in Breakout Room 2A at the Holiday Inn Express.  There is one "Director" for each school, and one vote for each Director.  All ten Directors comprise the Board.  

First, the Board votes to dissolve.  C7 votes unanimously to dissolve, which needs a 2/3 majority.  Once the dissolution vote is taken, the Board then must vote as to how to liquidate the assets.  C7 votes unanimously to sell all assets of the Big East Conference to BEC LLC for ten dollars* and split the proceeds amongst the members (which only requires a majority of votes present, or 6 in this case).  Each Director is then given their dollar, and the meeting adjourns.  UCONN, Cincy and USF walk out in disgust, and once they're gone, the banner on the wall that says "Big East Conference" is flipped over to read "BEC LLC."  The meeting of BEC LLC is called back to order (having been in recess since 15 minutes before the dissolution vote), ratifies the purchase of the Big East assets and opens the movable wall separating Room 2A from 2B, where the CEO's from Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St Louis, etc. just happen to be comfortably seated sipping their complementary coffee.  BEC LLC then votes to change its name to Big East Conference, the banner is flipped back over, and a vote is taken to invite the new members.  NCAA is notified that UCONN, Cincy and USF are no longer members of the Big East.  MSG is given a change-of-address notice for all matters pertaining to its contract with the Big East.  And the new members walk down to Breakout Room 4 where representatives from ESPN, NBC, CBS, Fox Sports, Google, Apple, etc. are patiently awaiting the auction for TV rights to begin.

Once everything has concluded, Billy from the front desk calls to tell everyone they need to get out or else he has to charge them for another day's room rental.

*Pick a number.

Awesome. Gotta be one the best posts ever on Scoop.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 12:26:24 PM
From the Big East by-laws:

ARTICLE XII - DISSOLUTION
12.01 Dissolution. The Conference may be dissolved upon a vote of at least two-thirds of all Directors. In the event of dissolution of the Conference, the Board, by a vote of a majority of all Directors present and eligible to vote, shall determine the basis for liquidation of Conference assets, if any, and the allocation, following the satisfaction of all Conference obligations, of net assets, as provided for in the Articles.
(Also see http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34636.msg424594#msg424594 for my interpretation of the by-laws.)

Basically, the CEO's of the ten voting members (C7 + USF, UCONN, Cincy) get together in Breakout Room 2A at the Holiday Inn Express.  There is one "Director" for each school, and one vote for each Director.  All ten Directors comprise the Board.  

First, the Board votes to dissolve.  C7 votes unanimously to dissolve, which needs a 2/3 majority.  Once the dissolution vote is taken, the Board then must vote as to how to liquidate the assets.  C7 votes unanimously to sell all assets of the Big East Conference to BEC LLC for ten dollars* and split the proceeds amongst the members (which only requires a majority of votes present, or 6 in this case).  Each Director is then given their dollar, and the meeting adjourns.  UCONN, Cincy and USF walk out in disgust, and once they're gone, the banner on the wall that says "Big East Conference" is flipped over to read "BEC LLC."  The meeting of BEC LLC is called back to order (having been in recess since 15 minutes before the dissolution vote), ratifies the purchase of the Big East assets and opens the movable wall separating Room 2A from 2B, where the CEO's from Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St Louis, etc. just happen to be comfortably seated sipping their complementary coffee.  BEC LLC then votes to change its name to Big East Conference, the banner is flipped back over, and a vote is taken to invite the new members.  NCAA is notified that UCONN, Cincy and USF are no longer members of the Big East.  MSG is given a change-of-address notice for all matters pertaining to its contract with the Big East.  And the new members walk down to Breakout Room 4 where representatives from ESPN, NBC, CBS, Fox Sports, Google, Apple, etc. are patiently awaiting the auction for TV rights to begin.

Once everything has concluded, Billy from the front desk calls to tell everyone they need to get out or else he has to charge them for another day's room rental.

*Pick a number.

YES YES YES YES.  Exactly how it should/will go down. 

I am assuming that selling assets for $10 would invite a lawsuit right?

I'm not sure if it was Brew, or somebody else, but did someone have the numbers in regard to how much revenue Marquette brought from basketball to the Big East?  I thought i remember reading that Marquette was the most profitable within the last 10 years or something in providing revenue to the conference from the NCAA tournament?

I'm sick of reading how Marquette was an anchor from the CUSA and isn't "pulling their own weight"

Thanks.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 12:28:29 PM
Nah, he's clearly spending a few days a week in St. Louis taking notes on how to be like them, taking in ND football games and alumni dinners, and spending the rest of his time at Lids buying more super cool hats.

/teal

That's how LW spends his free time. More often that not, he's plotting and executing schemes to mess with Buzz's happy.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 12:52:26 PM
I am assuming that selling assets for $10 would invite a lawsuit right?

I think that no matter how this goes down, there will be lawsuits.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
I question this whole automatic bid and MSG go away if we become basketball only.  The catholic 7 or whatever have the power to kick out the football schools for the next 6 months.  That means these 7 can retain the auto bid, MSG, AND the name and simply invite new schools in to build the league out to 10 or 12 teams.

Based on the rumbles, I'm willing to bet, the 7 are currently talking to schools like Creighton, Butler, Xavier, etc and assessing their interest and beginning negotiations to bring them in.  If they are doing this right, they will have the new schools in place behind the scenes, will call a BEast meeting, call the vote to jettison the football schools and rescind the existing offers then the next day announce they are extending offers to these list of 5 schools to join the BEast in all sports(with football not a sport at any of them save Villanova).  Those 5 schools with "think" about it for several days for appearance sake and then sign on the dotted line and we're done.

Agreed.  This is what will happen, and the tournament stays at MSG.

Question for scoopers,  We all know MU will not have a football team for obvious reasons, but if the C-7 schools do indeed become a basketball only conference would these schools need another "secondary" sport to help with revenue?  Perhaps having a good baseball program, or soccer program would help.  Soccer is gaining popularity throughout America for about 10 years now, and baseball is America's past time. 

Having an institution lean so heavily on a sport other than football could be a recipe for conference instability for decades and decades. Just curious on thoughts of fellow scoopers. 

(yes i know the Marquette Men's soccer team did great this year) I'm talking about sustained success for another sport other than basketball, or does it really not matter?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2012, 12:09:32 PM
How do we know Larry hasn't been doing this for the last 9 months?

What is he was, doesn't change that he should be.  Again, happy he is doing his job, but he is supposed to.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 12:52:26 PM
I am assuming that selling assets for $10 would invite a lawsuit right?

What Pakuni said.  Nevertheless, "$10" is a placeholder; please note the asterisk.

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 11, 2012, 12:22:22 PM
However, I do *not* think taking a school for all sports but football is a good idea. That's just a recipe for instability.

Well, it depends on how you do it. Think about the make-up of this league with football schools being forced to park their sports elsewhere:

Marquette
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
DePaul

Butler
VCU
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis

UConn
Memphis
Temple
Cincinnati

Okay, first off, any decisions that are made are made with the basketball-only schools controlling everything. The football schools can choose to leave, but they can't control the direction the conference takes. Basically, they would only be here because associating their basketball with us would be more lucrative than going independent or going all-in with the MAC or C-USA.

Memphis and Temple were all but giddy to get into the Big East. Clearly this was a better bet for them and no one was kicking down their door. Their football can stay where it is, doesn't hurt them any, but obviously this is a better bet for their basketball and other sports. I wouldn't worry about them going anywhere.

Cincy and UConn would come in with their eyes firmly set at leaving. So what? As long as they're here, they add to our basketball profile. And if they leave, that's still a damn good basketball league. If we drop to 14, so be it. Damn good conference. If we choose to replace them with Creighton and Wichita State/Richmond/Murray State/whomever, again, so be it. We don't take much of a drop-off and the basketball schools get even more of a stranglehold on the conference.

Regardless, having a couple football schools in that raise the basketball profile is fine as long as we're in a situation where we don't need them. If they leave, so what, what's important is they no longer control what's happening to us.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 12:53:43 PM
I'm not sure if it was Brew, or somebody else, but did someone have the numbers in regard to how much revenue Marquette brought from basketball to the Big East?  I thought i remember reading that Marquette was the most profitable within the last 10 years or something in providing revenue to the conference from the NCAA tournament?

I'm sick of reading how Marquette was an anchor from the CUSA and isn't "pulling their own weight"

Thanks.

2011 Report - http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25546.0

2012 Report - http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32345.0

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Question for scoopers,  We all know MU will not have a football team for obvious reasons, but if the C-7 schools do indeed become a basketball only conference would these schools need another "secondary" sport to help with revenue?  Perhaps having a good baseball program, or soccer program would help.  Soccer is gaining popularity throughout America for about 10 years now, and baseball is America's past time. 

Having an institution lean so heavily on a sport other than football could be a recipe for conference instability for decades and decades. Just curious on thoughts of fellow scoopers. 

(yes i know the Marquette Men's soccer team did great this year) I'm talking about sustained success for another sport other than basketball, or does it really not matter?

Still waitin' on Crean's soccer field donation.

Quote from: BaltimoreMC on December 11, 2012, 12:42:18 PM



YES YES YES YES.  Exactly how it should/will go down. 

+1

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Question for scoopers,  We all know MU will not have a football team for obvious reasons, but if the C-7 schools do indeed become a basketball only conference would these schools need another "secondary" sport to help with revenue?  Perhaps having a good baseball program, or soccer program would help.  Soccer is gaining popularity throughout America for about 10 years now, and baseball is America's past time. 

Having an institution lean so heavily on a sport other than football could be a recipe for conference instability for decades and decades. Just curious on thoughts of fellow scoopers. 

(yes i know the Marquette Men's soccer team did great this year) I'm talking about sustained success for another sport other than basketball, or does it really not matter?

Womens soccer team has been really good for years now. 5 straight conference titles and now the mens team is on the rise. Plus our volleyball team has had its best two seasons the last 2 years and they are on the rise as well. Volleyball is a pretty big deal as well nationally.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 12:32:28 PM
Or... how do we know that Larry wasn't the one that got the C7 off their collective rears the day after he was hired?

Then great, full credit, but again that's his job.  If the C7 plus others league happens and it turns out he is the lynch pin, he should get a raise and praise.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Looks like the A-10 wants the C7.  21 team conference?  Ewwww.  I think we'll do without St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and Fordham.  I think their premiere schools would as well.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Looks like the A-10 wants the C7.  21 team conference?  Ewwww.  I think we'll do without St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and Fordham.  I think their premiere schools would as well.

Won't happen with all current teams... Gtown won't even schedule a game anymore with GW, nonetheless be in the same conf with them.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Looks like the A-10 wants the C7.  21 team conference?  Ewwww.  I think we'll do without St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and Fordham.  I think their premiere schools would as well.

St. Bonnies, Duquesne and Fordham turn our collective stomachs, much the way seeing MU in a conference with STL and Dayton would turn mine. YUCK!!

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 11, 2012, 12:52:26 PM
I am assuming that selling assets for $10 would invite a lawsuit right?

In our society today, everything gets a lawsuit, doesn't make it any less the right and smart thing to do.

What is interesting is what USF, Cincy and UConn do.  They have to see the writing on the wall(if their ADs are as smart as LW seems to be  ;D) so do you leave ahead and owe an exit fee, but land in a softer position, or do you hang on to the bitter end, not have to pay the exit fee, and then have a huge scramble to find a home.

I'm betting at least USF blinks first.

Can anyone comment of the timing of this?  How fast this hoops-only scenario could happen?  I know there is no real rush as long as it gets done within the window of time necessary, but as a fan you'd love to know what conference your team is playing in.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Looks like the A-10 wants the C7.  21 team conference?  Ewwww.  I think we'll do without St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and Fordham.  I think their premiere schools would as well.

Pre-emptive strike by the A-10 to prevent poaching.  Why would the BEast teams want to split the BE funds 21 ways instead of 12?  I think this signals that this thing is 80-20 to happen as a 12 team BE bball only conference.  Book it  :D

If you're interested, here's what the map would look like after kicking out the BE football schools and adding Dayton, Xaiver, Butler, SLU and Creighton.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/1zpsc50.jpg)

The center of the conference would be Mansfield, Ohio. I wonder if they hotels near a stadium with cheap parking meters?

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 01:52:31 PM
Pre-emptive strike by the A-10 to prevent poaching.  Why would the BEast teams want to split the BE funds 21 ways instead of 12?  I think this signals that this thing is 80-20 to happen as a 12 team BE bball only conference.  Book it  :D

Right on.  Wonder where the knucklehead from a couple months ago is who told us that the A-10 schools all love each other, nobody would dare leave, and that their door is closed on expansion to anyone?  At the first peep of defections they're already scared enough to want to invite 7 teams.  In other words, 10 of the 14 are afraid and 4 of the 14 are salivating.  And in other words, if we break away there won't be any struggle to get the A-10 teams of our choosing to join.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Question for scoopers,  We all know MU will not have a football team for obvious reasons, but if the C-7 schools do indeed become a basketball only conference would these schools need another "secondary" sport to help with revenue?  Perhaps having a good baseball program, or soccer program would help.  Soccer is gaining popularity throughout America for about 10 years now, and baseball is America's past time. 

Having an institution lean so heavily on a sport other than football could be a recipe for conference instability for decades and decades. Just curious on thoughts of fellow scoopers. 

(yes i know the Marquette Men's soccer team did great this year) I'm talking about sustained success for another sport other than basketball, or does it really not matter?

I'll quote LW first hand from the Marquette Circles in NYC.  Marquette will be relevant to any conference as long as we maintain excellance in all our sports programs in addition to basketball.  LW cited the recent success of men's & women's soccer and the women's volleyball team.  Repeatadly cited the need and desire to build a fieldhouse to allow teams to practice year round in Milwaukee weather.

Oh hey guys, remember this?  What an idiot:

QuoteDAYTON (OH) -- To Whom it May Concern, namely DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and Villanova:

I understand that you've been having a Maalox Moment or two, so I'd like to address some of your concerns to help explain your indigestion about the continuing implosion of the Big East Conference -- the home turf for all of your athletic programs. And when I say indigestion, I mean panic attacks about your potential irrelevance from the college basketball landscape. My purpose is not to allay your fears but rather substantiate them. As chaotic and desperate as you think they are, I believe there is sound evidence to suggest your fears don't go far enough. They are ever-present, but they are also victim to the sin of spin. Your depth perception is inside-out, and it's worth my time to provide an outside-in viewpoint to cast a proper light on the changing college landscape.

So here goes.

In a nutshell, you're screwed. Not blindfold-and-cigarette screwed, but short on options and shorter on time. You're Jack Dawson on the Titanic and Celine Dion is clearing her throat. The good news is there are lifeboats. The bad news is you came from steerage and those lifeboats aren't for you. In two hours the ship will founder and the best you can hope for is to use the body of a dead porter as an improvised flotation device until help arrives -- but it's no sure thing they'll find you floating among the debris, alive, worth saving.

In basketball parlance, the Big East is the Titanic, college football is the iceberg, and the A10 is the RMS Carpathia. When the Carpathia trawls the debris field for survivors, folks like yourself aren't in a position of strength to demand hot towels and a wine list. You might have been a passenger on the grandest ocean liner to ever set sail, but that was two hours ago. Nobody cares anymore and the royal crest you've been bear-hugging presently sleeps at the bottom of the north Atlantic. You're like everyone else now, but still cling to the Guggenheim attitude.

Glad we could be there to offer a rescue. Want to know more about our swashbuckling sloop? Consider the following.

The A10 holds all of the face cards and authors their own future. The private A10 schools are not going to retreat from the stability and security of the top basketball-only conference in the country and venture out into shark-infested waters where schools are cannibalizing their own league members, jockeying for position, and lobbying over one another into conferences that are completely unstable geographic nightmares of greed, self-absorption, and academic antagonism.

Do I foresee institutions leaving the dead calm of the A10 to form a new basketball-centric conference amid the unpredictable swells and whitecaps of present-day re-alignment? No way -- not unless its under the terms, conditions, and timetable of the departing A10 members. There is too much chaos and uncertainty to abandon a perfectly good ship and swim for the promise of an uncharted land mass.

Especially not after Butler and VCU were just added to the improving conference. It's hard to imagine Butler and VCU accepting invitations to the A10 without the darnedest assurances from Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis that a bait-and-switch was not eminent.

The A10 is the safe haven at the moment. League members control their own fates and have a timetable based on a sun dial instead of a stopwatch. Members recognize as a stable league, their strength is in numbers.

The A10 is a league many institutions are intrigued to join -- not parachute out of. More schools want a boarding pass than vacant staterooms to fill. The climate is getting more and more advantageous to the A10 as FBS football implodes the college landscape. Even a traveling salesman understands market forces. The A10 office recognizes their position of strength at the bargaining table. The strength is not absolute, but the leverage is undeniable.

Bernadette McGlade knew this last year when she added the Bulldogs and Rams. Her hand is only that much stronger and strengthening by the hour. The A10 doesn't need the Big East basketball schools to survive. A nice addition? Certainly. A necessity? No. Big East basketball schools may ultimately reach a point however where their fate is determined by others only -- on the timetable of others and at the mercy of others.

None of this is to suggest Big East basketball members compare unfavorably to the brass hats of the A10. Marquette, Villanova, and Georgetown have reached Final Fours in recent years. St. John's is still St. John's. Comparing one Big East school to one A10 school is not the comparison that will re-map the landscape however. Power rests in the hands of those most capable of retreating to their existing ships and staying above the waterline. The A10 does not need a flotilla of supply ships to remain at sea for an extended period. She's stocked, cocked, and water-tight. More than that, all hands on deck believe in her.

The A10 schools have historically operated on a smaller budget than schools in the Big East. Maintaining the status quo is just another day at the office. Members are used to stretching a dollar. The A10 brass -- Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, Butler, St. Joe, and VCU -- are not going to let dollar signs overcome them by some newfangled Big East Redux 2.0 unless it's more bulletproof than the Merrimack.

Why?

The A10 schools would be assuming 100% of the risk while the Big East schools would be taking on none of the risk. When you have nothing to lose, you can't. But A10 schools have everything to lose because they would be folding an already strong hand for a new deal of unknown cards. A10 schools are happy and content where they are if that's the worst case scenario. That's not the case with the basketball schools in the Big East. The problem with musical chairs is there's never a chair for everyone. Big East schools are killing each other to find a seat at the table -- any table.

You've worked hard to convince yourself that everything is the other way around and when Big East basketball schools say "jump", A10 schools shout "how high?", but its nothing more than a half-baked Baghdad Bob impersonation. Whatever happens will happen because the A10 schools chose it to happen. They hold the decisive veto.

Time is wasting and you've already wasted plenty of that. During the favorable weather when most skippers were tightening up their rigging and caulking their hulls, you only had time to count the checks. You were a grand ship but you're nothing but a memory now. Just a cold, rusty, maritime relic sitting alone with no passengers and no port-of-call.

The A10 might not be the ship of royalty, but she's our ship and certainly worth fighting for. You can denigrate her all you like, but she still floats. Rather than order our sailors and officers to command a new ship under your slanted and corrupted oversight, perhaps it will be us barking the orders and assigning the bunks, on our own trusty boat, warts and all, in a manner and timetable of our choosing.

If and when that happens, Celine will be in rare form. Big East basketball schools won't have a heart that goes on. It will have an ongoing heart attack.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 01:55:42 PM
Right on.  Wonder where the knucklehead from a couple months ago is who told us that the A-10 schools all love each other, nobody would dare leave, and that their door is closed on expansion to anyone?  At the first peep of defections they're already scared enough to want to invite 7 teams.  In other words, 10 of the 14 are afraid and 4 of the 14 are salivating.  And in other words, if we break away there won't be any struggle to get the A-10 teams of our choosing to join.

Quote from: xghostsniperx on December 11, 2012, 02:02:13 PM
Oh hey guys, remember this?  What an idiot:

They're not wrong yet.  It's possible that the A10 teams have banded together and agreed not to participate in all the shenanigans.  Granted, the teams of the Big East "made" that "agreement" at one point too, and they already haven't kept out of it since Temple left and they poached Butler & VCU, but it's possible that they all drew a line in the sand together.  We'll see in a few months.

It would be nice to have Cincy and Uconn, but they would remain a destablizing factor so I think you leave them out. Madison Square Garden has the right to terminate Big East contract, if there is a significant change in teams. I suspect they will dump Big East and go after ACC. They may allow Big East to stay there in short-term until ACC finishes whatever contract they might have for their tournament.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Question for scoopers,  We all know MU will not have a football team for obvious reasons, but if the C-7 schools do indeed become a basketball only conference would these schools need another "secondary" sport to help with revenue?  Perhaps having a good baseball program, or soccer program would help.  Soccer is gaining popularity throughout America for about 10 years now, and baseball is America's past time. 

Having an institution lean so heavily on a sport other than football could be a recipe for conference instability for decades and decades. Just curious on thoughts of fellow scoopers. 

(yes i know the Marquette Men's soccer team did great this year) I'm talking about sustained success for another sport other than basketball, or does it really not matter?

Yes,we've been having good success in Mens/Women's soccer and Women's vball. I'm also told by my east-coast friends that our lacrosse team is positioned for growth (as is the sport at large). *However* outside of the very top levels of competition in these sports, they are not revenue producing. Tennessee/UCONN Women's bball may be profitable, but most Women's hoops are not. We should not bank on any secondary sport being a regular revenue-producing sport.

Quote from: xghostsniperx on December 11, 2012, 02:02:13 PM
Oh hey guys, remember this?  What an idiot:

He is basically saying no one is going to leave the A-10 unless they are getting a better deal.  Of course, that is the whole point.  Anyone who says an A-10 school will stay in the league simply for the sake of stability and would rather play Fordham, St. Bonnie's, Duquesne and LaSalle than Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette and St. John's has no clue.

Quote from: frozena pizza on December 11, 2012, 02:30:45 PMHe is basically saying no one is going to leave the A-10 unless they are getting a better deal.

You're giving him too much credit. He was being a smartass saying the A-10 is better off than the Big East and that we should be grateful if they throw us a life preserver because otherwise we're screwed. This desperation bid by the A-10 to go to 21 shows that they already know we can take whatever schools we like from them and all they can do is smile and nod.

Quote from: xghostsniperx on December 11, 2012, 01:50:33 PM
Can anyone comment of the timing of this?  How fast this hoops-only scenario could happen?  I know there is no real rush as long as it gets done within the window of time necessary, but as a fan you'd love to know what conference your team is playing in.

If a dissolution vote as outlined above is going to take place, it has to take place in the next six months, and if that should be the case, Marquette is playing in a 7-team Big East in 2013-14.  When the invitees happen to join, that is up for discussion.

If "reorganization via dissolution" is the outcome here, my gut tells me that it goes down within two weeks following the conclusion of the NCAA tourney.

May be a silly suggestion, but could it be feasible for a new, basketball-centric conference to align itself with a single apparel brand, the obvious one being Jordan? It would seem to make sense from a marketing and recruiting standpoint: big basketball paired with the biggest/best basketball-only apparel outlet. Maybe Nike is interested in Jordan increasing its footprint in the college game (a footprint that seems to lag far behind that of the pro game, albeit for obvious reasons). It already has ties with Georgetown and Marquette.

This very well may not conform to NCAA regulations. I'd be interested in knowing if it would.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 02:59:08 PM
If a dissolution vote as outlined above is going to take place, it has to take place in the next six months, and if that should be the case, Marquette is playing in a 7-team Big East in 2013-14.  When the invitees happen to join, that is up for discussion.

If "reorganization via dissolution" is the outcome here, my gut tells me that it goes down within two weeks following the conclusion of the NCAA tourney.

Agreed.  What gets interesting is if the football teams jump first.  If that's the case we get some extra money and don't have to disband.  Here is to hoping SEC and Big 12 poach from the ACC soon forcing UCONN and Cincy to jump now.

Quote from: MUStudent on December 11, 2012, 03:05:10 PM
May be a silly suggestion, but could it be feasible for a new, basketball-centric conference to align itself with a single apparel brand, the obvious one being Jordan? It would seem to make sense from a marketing and recruiting standpoint: big basketball paired with the biggest/best basketball-only apparel outlet. Maybe Nike is interested in Jordan increasing its footprint in the college game (a footprint that seems to lag far behind that of the pro game, albeit for obvious reasons). It already has ties with Georgetown and Marquette.

This very well may not conform to NCAA regulations. I'd be interested in knowing if it would.

Why would the Jordan brand want to align with an entire conference?  I could see Nike sponsoring the conference but the point of the Jordan brand is that it is the elite of the elite and as such is intentionally small.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 03:45:47 PM
Why would the Jordan brand want to align with an entire conference?  I could see Nike sponsoring the conference but the point of the Jordan brand is that it is the elite of the elite and as such is intentionally small.

That's where some dreaming comes in. Jordan backs the conference, and if we can't secure Big East naming rights, part of the conference name includes "Jordan." Jordan and the schools market it as the premier place for basketball in the collegiate landscape ('ONLY the best basketball'). Top recruits love it, join teams in the Jordan conference, and it becomes a perennial powerhouse.

This would seem to involve Jordan cutting out schools like UNC, though. Definitely unlikely. I thought it was an interesting hypothetical.

Not overly excited about this news. We are at crossroads and have to look very closely at this decision. I am afraid this conference could be mid major real quickly. If this happens we need to improve NC schedule big time and not waste anytime doing so. Too much at risk for us to follow others, we need to find a way to lead the pack.

Whether a 12, 14, or 16 team conference, I'd bet on a 18-game conference schedule. That leaves 13 games (including the exempt tournament) to play with. 4 games will go to the exempt tourney. But to boost the schedule, you probably need 3 regular quality opponents. Along with UW, I think home-and-homes with Louisville and Notre Dame should be a given. That leaves 6 games every year. UW-M and UW-GB aren't needed but would keep some happy. Of the remaining 4 games, at least 2-3 should be buy games to guarantee victories. That leaves 1-2 for events like the Carrier Classic or a conference challenge series.

Even still, that'd be a very tough schedule. Likely 6 HM opponents every year. But it would make for some good BC non-con games, especially if we managed to alternate the conference challenge so we had 2 high majors at home every year.

UMass heading back to FCS?

@GazzetteUMass
There is a motion that will be presented by the fac senate today to call on admin to consider reversing decision to move football to FBS.


They would be a nice part of this league - but this is a nonbinding vote from the faculty

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 05:00:16 PM

Even still, that'd be a very tough schedule. Likely 6 HM opponents every year. But it would make for some good BC non-con games, especially if we managed to alternate the conference challenge so we had 2 high majors at home every year.

I am somewhat excited about getting HM OOC opponets back to the Bradley Center on a regular basis. Wasn't needed when we joined the BE.

Quote from: Goose on December 11, 2012, 04:47:10 PM
Not overly excited about this news. We are at crossroads and have to look very closely at this decision. I am afraid this conference could be mid major real quickly. If this happens we need to improve NC schedule big time and not waste anytime doing so. Too much at risk for us to follow others, we need to find a way to lead the pack.

So what.  I'll take the extra millions and you can call me whatever names you want.  Calling Marquette a mid-major in the new Big East would be like an former jock chanting "nerd, nerd, nerd" in front of Bill Gates at their 40-year HS reunion.

"Mid-major" doesn't mean anything.  Just ask future Big East rivals Butler, VCU and Xavier.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 05:05:26 PM
UMass heading back to FCS?

@GazzetteUMass
There is a motion that will be presented by the fac senate today to call on admin to consider reversing decision to move football to FBS.


They would be a nice part of this league - but this is a nonbinding vote from the faculty

More important, the Boston market, another top-10.

And I know some will say UMass isn't big in Boston. But so what? Rutgers isn't big in NYC and the B1G is convinced they'll make tens of millions annually because of the Rutgers/NYC connection. It still gives us one more major market when ESPN and the other networks are considering how much to bid for our league rights. Certainly better than media market #65.

Benny B
You can be a mid major guy all you want. We cannot afford to be a mid major, either financially or for recruiting. You can put your head in the sand all you want. Many on here do not think we are elite program now and we have been in elite conference and success in NCAA. I would hate to be the guy rolling dice on this one.

In addition, we might have extra millions left over when we have a mid major coach getting $600k a year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 05:11:21 PM
More important, the Boston market, another top-10.

I'm not putting Boston Market in my Top 10.

(http://www.printablecouponsimages.com/wp-content/uploads/bostonmarket.jpg)

Seems to me we went to the final 4 and paid our coach millions when we were in a mid major conference 10 years ago.

This new conference would certainly be much better then the old CUSA.

By the way, the Dayton board is just dripping with animosity against the BE7 and the idea that we could steal the top of the A10. They are convincing themselves that the A10 could pry a wedge b/t MU/Depaul and the rest of the Big East and could add us.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18751&page=19

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2012, 03:40:43 PM
Agreed.  What gets interesting is if the football teams jump first.  If that's the case we get some extra money and don't have to disband.  Here is to hoping SEC and Big 12 poach from the ACC soon forcing UCONN and Cincy to jump now.

Don't we still have to disband to prevent the influx of Boise St, SDST, Memphis, SMU, ECU, Tulane?

Quote from: Goose on December 11, 2012, 04:47:10 PM
Not overly excited about this news. We are at crossroads and have to look very closely at this decision. I am afraid this conference could be mid major real quickly. If this happens we need to improve NC schedule big time and not waste anytime doing so. Too much at risk for us to follow others, we need to find a way to lead the pack.

You have to compare it to the future Big East, not the Big East you remember.  The old Big East is gone.  The new one is destined for mid-major status anyway.  That big Tulane-Temple game coming up isn't making waves on the national scene for some reason.

Quote from: Goose on December 11, 2012, 05:13:46 PM
Benny B
You can be a mid major guy all you want. We cannot afford to be a mid major, either financially or for recruiting. You can put your head in the sand all you want. Many on here do not think we are elite program now and we have been in elite conference and success in NCAA. I would hate to be the guy rolling dice on this one.

In addition, we might have extra millions left over when we have a mid major coach getting $600k a year.

So you'd take $1M/yr to stay in the current version of the Big East with SMU and Eastern Carolina rather than $2M/yr to be in the "mid-major" version?

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 05:23:44 PM
By the way, the Dayton board is just dripping with animosity against the BE7 and the idea that we could steal the top of the A10. They are convincing themselves that the A10 could pry a wedge b/t MU/Depaul and the rest of the Big East and could add us.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18751&page=19

They're afraid they may not get an invite, that's all.  Especially if the C7 only want one Ohio team, they know it would obviously be X.

Larry Williams on MU BBall hour with Homer now.

Just openly expressed his displeasure with not being consulted during the decision to add Tulane.

Also discussed the "mirror games" possibility, did not seem to believe in its viability, said he needed convincing.

Has said "everything is on the table" for Marquette going forward when asked about a basketball-only conference.

Responding to a "what do you what Marquette fans to know?" question, he did cite the possibility of the "Gonzaga model" of being a powerhouse in a small pond.

Benny B

I would evaluate everything before making decision. A million a year more in wrong conference turns into a big financial loss long term. All I am saying is that they need to weigh all options and not just settle for easiest path.

Quote from: MUStudent on December 11, 2012, 06:24:20 PM
Larry Williams on MU BBall hour with Homer now.

Just openly expressed his displeasure with not being consulted during the decision to add Tulane.

Also discussed the "mirror games" possibility, did not seem to believe in its viability, said he needed convincing.

Has said "everything is on the table" for Marquette going forward when asked about a basketball-only conference.

Responding to a "what do you what Marquette fans to know?" question, he did cite the possibility of the "Gonzaga model" of being a powerhouse in a small pond.

My least favorite of all the options.

Quote from: MUStudent on December 11, 2012, 06:24:20 PM


Responding to a "what do you what Marquette fans to know?" question, he did cite the possibility of the "Gonzaga model" of being a powerhouse in a small pond.

I just dont like the thought of that. Gonzaga has coaching stability and they win their auto-bid just about every single year. It seems like they have to swim upstream all the time. Luckily, they can swim faster than the current.

Will the old BE schools be interested in OOC games with us? I dont think so. Outside of ND, I dont see any ACC team being interested in a 1:1 with us. We never played any of those football schools with any regularity prior to joining the conference. Then again, maybe a new league has a strong enough SOS and RPI that it wont matter. There could be some ugly years though.

And btw, how the hell did Tulane get into the BE? Sounds like the football schools werent that interested and neither were the bball schools. I did find the comment about how Tulane would hurt the rpi of some of the bball schools quite funny. I hope Providence, DePaul and SHU didnt say that. Prov and SHU have been rpi drains much longer than when we joined the conference.

Responding to a "what do you what Marquette fans to know?" question, he did cite the possibility of the "Gonzaga model" of being a powerhouse in a small pond.

This is the last thing i would want...

A lot of A-10 school forums keep bringing up the option to add Marquette and Depaul.  Is that what LW is referring too?

The Gonzaga model isn't what I want, not because they haven't been successful, but because it's a very hard model to ape. Few has proven to be a Spokane lifer (so far) and has recruited to a system. They are consistently ranked, but they built their reputation off their three straight Sweet 16s from 11 years ago. Since then, they've reached the second weekend of the tournament twice. They compete, but they aren't a true contender.

I'm not saying it will be easy regardless. But a true non-football power conference could have legitimate title aspirations. Not as often as the BCS conferences, but with schools like Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and St. John's (untapped but with Lavin's recruiting could get there) you have schools that can consider the Sweet 16 a starting point and the Final Four a realistic goal. All it takes is for one of them to win two games on that final weekend. Certainly a tough task, but far more surmountable in my opinion for any of those four (and most of the proposed schools) than it is for Gonzaga, who never in their history have even reached the final weekend.

Not only that but we play in a 19k seat arena......you aren't going to pack the place with the big fish small pond model.

Quote from: MuMark on December 11, 2012, 06:50:14 PM
Not only that but we play in a 19k seat arena......you aren't going to pack the place with the big fish small pond model.

Not only that, but it's risky. Gonzaga has gone to the NCAAs on the auto-bid all but 4 years during their current 14-bid streak. In those 4 years, they were 7-seeds or worse each year. All it takes is one questionable year and an upset in the conference tourney and you're missing the dance. And even if you play a tough non-con schedule, it's a long time from the December non-con battles until you play real teams again in March. Just not my cup of tea.

And as you say...Milwaukee already doesn't fill the BC when they come across town, what chance is there that Youngstown State, Valpo, or Cleveland State would be selling tickets? Season Ticket sales would drop like a rock.

Quote from: MUStudent on December 11, 2012, 06:24:20 PM
Larry Williams on MU BBall hour with Homer now.

Just openly expressed his displeasure with not being consulted during the decision to add Tulane.

Also discussed the "mirror games" possibility, did not seem to believe in its viability, said he needed convincing.

Has said "everything is on the table" for Marquette going forward when asked about a basketball-only conference.

Responding to a "what do you what Marquette fans to know?" question, he did cite the possibility of the "Gonzaga model" of being a powerhouse in a small pond.

Thanks for sharing this.

The Gonzaga model can also be called the Boise State model, the Memphis model, the UNLV model, even the Butler model (to some extent...at least when they were in the Horizon during some years).  It has been successful for schools in the past and present to accomplish some significant things (Championship games, Final fours, BCS bowl berths, etc).  I agree it's not ideal, I'd rather play in a power conference that will attract fans and get people buzzing.  It is also not a death sentence, either.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 06:57:12 PM


And as you say...Milwaukee already doesn't fill the BC when they come across town, what chance is there that Youngstown State, Valpo, or Cleveland State would be selling tickets? Season Ticket sales would drop like a rock.

Exactly. And to me, that is why regional rivalries should trump demographics and tv viewership. Great rivalries alone will ultimately create great bball games that people will want to watch....and just as importantly....want to attend. There is a lot of money to be made in ticket sales....and that revenue isnt shared. If less money from a tv deal means more money at the gate, then sign me up. We are talking about entertainment....and Ill pay for that. Im not going to crappy games that cater to tv demographics. Its just that simple to me.

Would anybody else prefer the "Gonzaga model" compared to the A-10 or the current Big East?  I think LW is crazy if he really is considering that option.  Who is going to go to games like Cleveland State, etc?  Why would this even seem like a logical option? 

I really don't understand the point in even thinking about a route like that..  Anybody got any clues into the logic behind this???

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 07:07:41 PM
Would anybody else prefer the "Gonzaga model" compared to the A-10 or the current Big East?  I think LW is crazy if he really is considering that option.  Who is going to go to games like Cleveland State, etc?  Why would this even seem like a logical option? 

I really don't understand the point in even thinking about a route like that..  Anybody got any clues into the logic behind this???

Two reasons. First, simply considering all the options. It's a possibility that has been proven to work (albeit in a small sample size) so why not consider it? Second, because it can get you a lot of attention if it goes well. Look at the positive press it's brought not only Gonzaga, but in limited spans of time schools like Murray State, Butler, and VCU in recent years. A good run or two can turn win you a lot of fans. However, I would also note that of those three schools, two have already moved on to bigger conferences, and it wouldn't surprise me if Murray State was exploring options as well.

I support them for exploring all the options, but for a school in a top-35 media market playing in a NBA arena, I think it would be a huge mistake.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 06:47:39 PM
The Gonzaga model isn't what I want, not because they haven't been successful, but because it's a very hard model to ape. Few has proven to be a Spokane lifer (so far) and has recruited to a system. They are consistently ranked, but they built their reputation off their three straight Sweet 16s from 11 years ago. Since then, they've reached the second weekend of the tournament twice. They compete, but they aren't a true contender.

I'm not saying it will be easy regardless. But a true non-football power conference could have legitimate title aspirations. Not as often as the BCS conferences, but with schools like Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and St. John's (untapped but with Lavin's recruiting could get there) you have schools that can consider the Sweet 16 a starting point and the Final Four a realistic goal. All it takes is for one of them to win two games on that final weekend. Certainly a tough task, but far more surmountable in my opinion for any of those four (and most of the proposed schools) than it is for Gonzaga, who never in their history have even reached the final weekend.

Precisely.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 07:07:41 PM
Would anybody else prefer the "Gonzaga model" compared to the A-10 or the current Big East?  I think LW is crazy if he really is considering that option.  Who is going to go to games like Cleveland State, etc?  Why would this even seem like a logical option? 

I really don't understand the point in even thinking about a route like that..  Anybody got any clues into the logic behind this???

I guess if he wants to play most of his games at The Al, then the Gonzaga model might work. If this is any clue how the current administration is thinking, then prepare to be disappointed.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 07:12:04 PM
Two reasons. First, simply considering all the options. It's a possibility that has been proven to work (albeit in a small sample size) so why not consider it? Second, because it can get you a lot of attention if it goes well. Look at the positive press it's brought not only Gonzaga, but in limited spans of time schools like Murray State, Butler, and VCU in recent years. A good run or two can turn win you a lot of fans. However, I would also note that of those three schools, two have already moved on to bigger conferences, and it wouldn't surprise me if Murray State was exploring options as well.

I support them for exploring all the options, but for a school in a top-35 media market playing in a NBA arena, I think it would be a huge mistake.

Makes a ton of sense when you mentioned it....you play in an NBA arena with 19k seats.  You came from CSUA, to the Big East for a reason.  I mean Crean must have been a dumb a** for getting us here then, we should have just stayed in CUSA and became a powerhouse right?  By far the dumbest option i've heard of thus far.  Gonzaga also has a coach who is happy with what he does, i'm not saying Buzz isn't, but what if he goes running?  Do we get the same recruits if we play in the Horizon league?  I'm not sure...  How much is LW paid again?

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 11, 2012, 07:07:41 PM
Would anybody else prefer the "Gonzaga model" compared to the A-10 or the current Big East?  I think LW is crazy if he really is considering that option.  Who is going to go to games like Cleveland State, etc?  Why would this even seem like a logical option? 

I really don't understand the point in even thinking about a route like that..  Anybody got any clues into the logic behind this???

It's not that he is crazy, he is doing what any good exec should do....consider all options.  If you pigeon hole yourself too much you can end up with nothing.  All options should be considered.  It may be option 4 and a distant 4th, but you can't take if off the table as a possible option.  The only one not talked about is going independent...that is also an option, but probably the absolute worst option. 

Some options are better than others, but in some we have leverage and in others we don't. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2012, 07:12:04 PM


I support them for exploring all the options, but for a school in a top-35 media market playing in a NBA arena, I think it would be a huge mistake.

Pardon my ignorance, but is playing in an NBA arena really a recruiting advantage? None of the blue-bloods play in one...none of the programs just below the blue bloods play in one.... And we dont land 1 and done or even two and done talents.

If an NBA arena meant something, then SJU should be killing it from a recruiting standpoint. Villinova and Gtown as well. Even SHU. But none of them are.

Coaches and competition are far more important than gameday facilities, IMO. And NBA fans dont een like the freaking Bucks.

Quote from: honkytonk on December 11, 2012, 07:32:16 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but is playing in an NBA arena really a recruiting advantage? None of the blue-bloods play in one...none of the programs just below the blue bloods play in one.... And we dont land 1 and done or even two and done talents.

If an NBA arena meant something, then SJU should be killing it from a recruiting standpoint. Villinova and Gtown as well. Even SHU. But none of them are.

Coaches and competition are far more important than gameday facilities, IMO. And NBA fans dont een like the freaking Bucks.

This one has been debated here many times.  There are pros and cons to playing in a city with the NBA.  Some will argue it gives you access to NBA players for Summer games and workouts, the ability to talk (casually) with people about the Association, etc.  Some will claim it is a recruiting advantage because we are playing on the same court as LeBron, Wade, etc.  Others bring up the same points you do...the elite programs don't play in a NBA arena by and large.  Memphis, Marquette, St. John's and maybe a few others are the only ones left that do it (Villanova at times, DePaul, etc).  UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, IU, Duke, UNC, etc, etc, etc all don't play in a NBA arena and many not in a NBA city or even a state that has the NBA, but do extremely well.  It's what you want to believe.

If you have a NBA arena that you play at, trump it up.  If you don't have a NBA arena to play in, then you trump that up as "it's ours, we don't share it" with anyone.  All how you spin it.

Quote from: honkytonk on December 11, 2012, 07:32:16 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but is playing in an NBA arena really a recruiting advantage?

Nothing to do with recruiting as far as conference affiliation so much as that it's a high fixed cost to lease the BC.  Go to a conference that fills the schedule with 9 home games that don't put butts in seats and you've got to move your games.

Oh come-on, Larry was just answering a question. He wasn't going to say what the plan was or is, but I can't imagine it w/ out being associated with Georgetown. I think he knows fully well that's the worst of all the options, and the hardest.

I don't read it anything more than Larry saying: "The world's not ending. We will value and support our basketball program to success no matter where we are"

I do think it helps. But that wasn't why I made the reference. Our NBA arena seats 19,000. We already struggle to fill it against non-con and even some Big East opponents. The idea that we could maintain current season ticket sales in the Horizon or MAC is ludicrous. Quite simply, the big fish/small pond model won't work for a school that counts on revenue for that many seats.

Gonzaga plays in a 6,000 seat venue. It's a completely different situation.

Here's a podcast between KC radio host and Doug Gottlieb. They talk about the Big East basketball news for about 15 minutes starting at the 4:00 mark. Gottlieb is pretty high on the basketball schools getting a good TV deal.

http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=26&c=373&f=877461

Quote from: 79Warrior on December 11, 2012, 07:16:23 PM
I guess if he wants to play most of his games at The Al, then the Gonzaga model might work. If this is any clue how the current administration is thinking, then prepare to be disappointed.

Let's not make that leap. I'll have to listen to the podcast, but when I listened to it live, the tone was more "we'll do that if we absolutely have to."

Quote from: chapman link=topic=34772.msg426480#msg426481. 0 date=1355269817
They're afraid they may not get an invite, that's all.  Especially if the C7 only want one Ohio team, they know it would obviously be X.

But that's the thing. Dayton has a very good chance of being added if the league goes beyond 10, better than most actually.

Quote from: PTM on December 11, 2012, 10:10:10 AM
BIG EASt. The lower case 't' is actually a crucifix.

The BIG Host

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 11, 2012, 08:27:58 PM
But that's the thing. Dayton has a very good chance of being added if the league goes beyond 10, better than most actually.

Why would the BE7 be so apt to add Dayton again?  I understand the dedicated and passionate fanbase.  But what has Dayton done in the past 10 years besides a few NCAA (I believe 2-3) appearances?  I think they won the NIT too, but who cares.  They have the 62nd ranked TV market in the nation.  We already have Ohio if we pick Xavier, why add a lower profile school?  To me it's like adding UW-GB when you already have Marquette--not a perfect comparison, but you get where I'm coming from.

It sounds like the general consensus is SLU, Xavier, and Creighton would be the first invites which put us at 10.  If we need to go to 12, why not add Butler and Richmond?  You get Indianapolis, which is the 25th TV market and Richmond, the 58th best TV market.  Butler has a passionate fanbase with excellent recent tradition with an up and coming coach would gets huge attention.  Richmond's attendance is improving and I just found a link that they averaged the 13th best attendance in the nation in 2010-11.  

So what's the obsession with Dayton?  They seem to bring very little besides a fanbase I find incredibly annoying.

Xavier and Dayton is a great rivalry...I'm all for putting together the most competitive and viable league, but there's plenty of us on this board who have complained about how conference realignment has already broken up some of the best rivalries in conference sports.  Do we want to be part of the solution or the problem?

Agree completely xghost, and I think that's why the UD fans are so hostile-they may fit the profile for this conference, but even assuming UC and other football-playing schools aren't in the mix they know that X, SLU,and Creighton are teams 8-10.  They're nervous that there's 7 or 8 schools in the mix for 11-12, they're far from a guarantee to be one of those, and it also may stop at 12.  You've got Butler, UMass, and three VA schools (Richmond, VCU, GMU) along with Dayton...hell, if they feel good about Xavier covering Ohio markets then St. Joe's offers as much or more than Dayton even with Nova down the road.  Plus, Dayton hasn't been an NCAA team out of the A10; amongst the feelings of potential abandonment their fans may also feel an invitation to join would be an invitation to be a bottom-feeder.

I wouldn't want to dismiss Dayton just because of one poster/letter writer, but on the other hand, I kind of do.  As noted earlier in the thread, what a dbag:

"DAYTON (OH) -- To Whom it May Concern, namely DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and Villanova:

I understand that you've been having a Maalox Moment or two, so I'd like to address some of your concerns to help explain your indigestion about the continuing implosion of the Big East Conference -- the home turf for all of your athletic programs. And when I say indigestion, I mean panic attacks about your potential irrelevance from the college basketball landscape. My purpose is not to allay your fears but rather substantiate them. As chaotic and desperate as you think they are, I believe there is sound evidence to suggest your fears don't go far enough. They are ever-present, but they are also victim to the sin of spin. Your depth perception is inside-out, and it's worth my time to provide an outside-in viewpoint to cast a proper light on the changing college landscape.

So here goes.

In a nutshell, you're screwed. Not blindfold-and-cigarette screwed, but short on options and shorter on time. You're Jack Dawson on the Titanic and Celine Dion is clearing her throat. The good news is there are lifeboats. The bad news is you came from steerage and those lifeboats aren't for you. In two hours the ship will founder and the best you can hope for is to use the body of a dead porter as an improvised flotation device until help arrives -- but it's no sure thing they'll find you floating among the debris, alive, worth saving.

In basketball parlance, the Big East is the Titanic, college football is the iceberg, and the A10 is the RMS Carpathia. When the Carpathia trawls the debris field for survivors, folks like yourself aren't in a position of strength to demand hot towels and a wine list. You might have been a passenger on the grandest ocean liner to ever set sail, but that was two hours ago. Nobody cares anymore and the royal crest you've been bear-hugging presently sleeps at the bottom of the north Atlantic. You're like everyone else now, but still cling to the Guggenheim attitude.

Glad we could be there to offer a rescue. Want to know more about our swashbuckling sloop? Consider the following.

The A10 holds all of the face cards and authors their own future. The private A10 schools are not going to retreat from the stability and security of the top basketball-only conference in the country and venture out into shark-infested waters where schools are cannibalizing their own league members, jockeying for position, and lobbying over one another into conferences that are completely unstable geographic nightmares of greed, self-absorption, and academic antagonism.

Do I foresee institutions leaving the dead calm of the A10 to form a new basketball-centric conference amid the unpredictable swells and whitecaps of present-day re-alignment? No way -- not unless its under the terms, conditions, and timetable of the departing A10 members. There is too much chaos and uncertainty to abandon a perfectly good ship and swim for the promise of an uncharted land mass.

Especially not after Butler and VCU were just added to the improving conference. It's hard to imagine Butler and VCU accepting invitations to the A10 without the darnedest assurances from Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis that a bait-and-switch was not eminent.

The A10 is the safe haven at the moment. League members control their own fates and have a timetable based on a sun dial instead of a stopwatch. Members recognize as a stable league, their strength is in numbers.

The A10 is a league many institutions are intrigued to join -- not parachute out of. More schools want a boarding pass than vacant staterooms to fill. The climate is getting more and more advantageous to the A10 as FBS football implodes the college landscape. Even a traveling salesman understands market forces. The A10 office recognizes their position of strength at the bargaining table. The strength is not absolute, but the leverage is undeniable.

Bernadette McGlade knew this last year when she added the Bulldogs and Rams. Her hand is only that much stronger and strengthening by the hour. The A10 doesn't need the Big East basketball schools to survive. A nice addition? Certainly. A necessity? No. Big East basketball schools may ultimately reach a point however where their fate is determined by others only -- on the timetable of others and at the mercy of others.

None of this is to suggest Big East basketball members compare unfavorably to the brass hats of the A10. Marquette, Villanova, and Georgetown have reached Final Fours in recent years. St. John's is still St. John's. Comparing one Big East school to one A10 school is not the comparison that will re-map the landscape however. Power rests in the hands of those most capable of retreating to their existing ships and staying above the waterline. The A10 does not need a flotilla of supply ships to remain at sea for an extended period. She's stocked, cocked, and water-tight. More than that, all hands on deck believe in her.

The A10 schools have historically operated on a smaller budget than schools in the Big East. Maintaining the status quo is just another day at the office. Members are used to stretching a dollar. The A10 brass -- Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, Butler, St. Joe, and VCU -- are not going to let dollar signs overcome them by some newfangled Big East Redux 2.0 unless it's more bulletproof than the Merrimack.

Why?

The A10 schools would be assuming 100% of the risk while the Big East schools would be taking on none of the risk. When you have nothing to lose, you can't. But A10 schools have everything to lose because they would be folding an already strong hand for a new deal of unknown cards. A10 schools are happy and content where they are if that's the worst case scenario. That's not the case with the basketball schools in the Big East. The problem with musical chairs is there's never a chair for everyone. Big East schools are killing each other to find a seat at the table -- any table.

You've worked hard to convince yourself that everything is the other way around and when Big East basketball schools say "jump", A10 schools shout "how high?", but its nothing more than a half-baked Baghdad Bob impersonation. Whatever happens will happen because the A10 schools chose it to happen. They hold the decisive veto.

Time is wasting and you've already wasted plenty of that. During the favorable weather when most skippers were tightening up their rigging and caulking their hulls, you only had time to count the checks. You were a grand ship but you're nothing but a memory now. Just a cold, rusty, maritime relic sitting alone with no passengers and no port-of-call.

The A10 might not be the ship of royalty, but she's our ship and certainly worth fighting for. You can denigrate her all you like, but she still floats. Rather than order our sailors and officers to command a new ship under your slanted and corrupted oversight, perhaps it will be us barking the orders and assigning the bunks, on our own trusty boat, warts and all, in a manner and timetable of our choosing.

If and when that happens, Celine will be in rare form. Big East basketball schools won't have a heart that goes on. It will have an ongoing heart attack."

According to the ESPN article mentioned earlier they don't have the ability to dissolve the league:

QuoteThe seven schools have a majority vote, with the three remaining FBS members being Connecticut, Cincinnati and South Florida. But the group of seven doesn't have the two-thirds vote to dissolve the league. Temple athletic director Bill Bradshaw told the Philadelphia Inquirer that the Owls are a full voting member, even though they don't join in all sports until July 1, 2013.

Industry sources say they couldn't see how or why Temple would side with the seven Catholic schools to vote to dissolve the league.

The seven Big East Catholic schools would have a hard time leaving because they would have to forgo NCAA tournament assets. But the A-10 would welcome them with open arms and promise a more lucrative television deal. The A-10 signed a new rights deal with NBC, CBS and ESPN but hasn't finished all of its rights fees, especially its digital platform.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

I have minor disdain for Dayton and it's fans because of letters such as I posted earlier, and the 2008 still hurts a little.  It's nothing serious and I'd welcome them into the conference with open arms if they had a relatively successful team with decent tradition and a top 50 market.  Unfortunately they have none of the above, and we can do better with Richmond, that's the only point I'm trying to make.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 11, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
According to the ESPN article mentioned earlier they don't have the ability to dissolve the league:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

I thought I saw a post earlier where there was some bylaw that said if a large enough group of schools exit, none of them would have to pay an exit fee?  I assume that would obviously leave money on the table, however.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 11, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
According to the ESPN article mentioned earlier they don't have the ability to dissolve the league:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

So says Temple's lawyers.  If we look at the bylaws:

Quote from: Benny B on December 04, 2012, 10:24:23 AM
1) Big East conference bylaws, contracts, etc. are private... but like all private documents, a lawsuit can change all of that.  Enter WVU vs. Big East and voila... public record.  http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2011/11/04/bigeast_v_wvu_110411.pdf (scroll to pg. 12).

...

7) Although Tulane, Memphis, etc. have been voted in, a member does not become a member until it "competes within the Conference in each varsity sport sponsored by the conference for which the Member has a Division I team."  Therefore, Memphis and Tulane do not currently have a seat on the Board of Directors (i.e. a voting interest).

So the big question is how the bolded statement is treated legally.  As Temple has only competed in football to date, yet they have a D1 basketball team... does this mean that they actually do NOT have a vote as said basketball team has yet to compete "within the conference in each varsity sport sponsored by the conference for which the member has a Division I team?"

Get your popcorn ready, folks...!

Quote from: xghostsniperx on December 11, 2012, 10:03:37 PM
I have minor disdain for Dayton and it's fans because of letters such as I posted earlier, and the 2008 still hurts a little.  It's nothing serious and I'd welcome them into the conference with open arms if they had a relatively successful team with decent tradition and a top 50 market.  Unfortunately they have none of the above, and we can do better with Richmond, that's the only point I'm trying to make.

Agreed. They'd be nice if we're going past 12. But if we're going b/t 8-12 my top 5 are:

1. Xavier
2. Butler
3. Creighton
4. St. Louis
5. Richmond

Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on December 11, 2012, 09:57:11 PM
I wouldn't want to dismiss Dayton just because of one poster/letter writer, but on the other hand, I kind of do.  As noted earlier in the thread, what a dbag:

"DAYTON (OH) -- To Whom it May Concern, namely DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and Villanova:

I understand that you've been having a Maalox Moment or two, so I'd like to address some of your concerns to help explain your indigestion about the continuing implosion of the Big East Conference -- the home turf for all of your athletic programs. And when I say indigestion, I mean panic attacks about your potential irrelevance from the college basketball landscape. My purpose is not to allay your fears but rather substantiate them. As chaotic and desperate as you think they are, I believe there is sound evidence to suggest your fears don't go far enough. They are ever-present, but they are also victim to the sin of spin. Your depth perception is inside-out, and it's worth my time to provide an outside-in viewpoint to cast a proper light on the changing college landscape.

So here goes.

In a nutshell, you're screwed. Not blindfold-and-cigarette screwed, but short on options and shorter on time. You're Jack Dawson on the Titanic and Celine Dion is clearing her throat. The good news is there are lifeboats. The bad news is you came from steerage and those lifeboats aren't for you. In two hours the ship will founder and the best you can hope for is to use the body of a dead porter as an improvised flotation device until help arrives -- but it's no sure thing they'll find you floating among the debris, alive, worth saving.

In basketball parlance, the Big East is the Titanic, college football is the iceberg, and the A10 is the RMS Carpathia. When the Carpathia trawls the debris field for survivors, folks like yourself aren't in a position of strength to demand hot towels and a wine list. You might have been a passenger on the grandest ocean liner to ever set sail, but that was two hours ago. Nobody cares anymore and the royal crest you've been bear-hugging presently sleeps at the bottom of the north Atlantic. You're like everyone else now, but still cling to the Guggenheim attitude.

Glad we could be there to offer a rescue. Want to know more about our swashbuckling sloop? Consider the following.

The A10 holds all of the face cards and authors their own future. The private A10 schools are not going to retreat from the stability and security of the top basketball-only conference in the country and venture out into shark-infested waters where schools are cannibalizing their own league members, jockeying for position, and lobbying over one another into conferences that are completely unstable geographic nightmares of greed, self-absorption, and academic antagonism.

Do I foresee institutions leaving the dead calm of the A10 to form a new basketball-centric conference amid the unpredictable swells and whitecaps of present-day re-alignment? No way -- not unless its under the terms, conditions, and timetable of the departing A10 members. There is too much chaos and uncertainty to abandon a perfectly good ship and swim for the promise of an uncharted land mass.

Especially not after Butler and VCU were just added to the improving conference. It's hard to imagine Butler and VCU accepting invitations to the A10 without the darnedest assurances from Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis that a bait-and-switch was not eminent.

The A10 is the safe haven at the moment. League members control their own fates and have a timetable based on a sun dial instead of a stopwatch. Members recognize as a stable league, their strength is in numbers.

The A10 is a league many institutions are intrigued to join -- not parachute out of. More schools want a boarding pass than vacant staterooms to fill. The climate is getting more and more advantageous to the A10 as FBS football implodes the college landscape. Even a traveling salesman understands market forces. The A10 office recognizes their position of strength at the bargaining table. The strength is not absolute, but the leverage is undeniable.

Bernadette McGlade knew this last year when she added the Bulldogs and Rams. Her hand is only that much stronger and strengthening by the hour. The A10 doesn't need the Big East basketball schools to survive. A nice addition? Certainly. A necessity? No. Big East basketball schools may ultimately reach a point however where their fate is determined by others only -- on the timetable of others and at the mercy of others.

None of this is to suggest Big East basketball members compare unfavorably to the brass hats of the A10. Marquette, Villanova, and Georgetown have reached Final Fours in recent years. St. John's is still St. John's. Comparing one Big East school to one A10 school is not the comparison that will re-map the landscape however. Power rests in the hands of those most capable of retreating to their existing ships and staying above the waterline. The A10 does not need a flotilla of supply ships to remain at sea for an extended period. She's stocked, cocked, and water-tight. More than that, all hands on deck believe in her.

The A10 schools have historically operated on a smaller budget than schools in the Big East. Maintaining the status quo is just another day at the office. Members are used to stretching a dollar. The A10 brass -- Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, Butler, St. Joe, and VCU -- are not going to let dollar signs overcome them by some newfangled Big East Redux 2.0 unless it's more bulletproof than the Merrimack.

Why?

The A10 schools would be assuming 100% of the risk while the Big East schools would be taking on none of the risk. When you have nothing to lose, you can't. But A10 schools have everything to lose because they would be folding an already strong hand for a new deal of unknown cards. A10 schools are happy and content where they are if that's the worst case scenario. That's not the case with the basketball schools in the Big East. The problem with musical chairs is there's never a chair for everyone. Big East schools are killing each other to find a seat at the table -- any table.

You've worked hard to convince yourself that everything is the other way around and when Big East basketball schools say "jump", A10 schools shout "how high?", but its nothing more than a half-baked Baghdad Bob impersonation. Whatever happens will happen because the A10 schools chose it to happen. They hold the decisive veto.

Time is wasting and you've already wasted plenty of that. During the favorable weather when most skippers were tightening up their rigging and caulking their hulls, you only had time to count the checks. You were a grand ship but you're nothing but a memory now. Just a cold, rusty, maritime relic sitting alone with no passengers and no port-of-call.

The A10 might not be the ship of royalty, but she's our ship and certainly worth fighting for. You can denigrate her all you like, but she still floats. Rather than order our sailors and officers to command a new ship under your slanted and corrupted oversight, perhaps it will be us barking the orders and assigning the bunks, on our own trusty boat, warts and all, in a manner and timetable of our choosing.

If and when that happens, Celine will be in rare form. Big East basketball schools won't have a heart that goes on. It will have an ongoing heart attack."

It's almost like this guy is completely unaware that two A-10 members have already defected to the greener pastures of "The Titanic" and Conference USA, which I guess would be the SS Minnow.

Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 11, 2012, 10:44:42 PM
Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

I don't think they would.  What would be kind of nice, but will never ever ever happen, is to reconcile and have a partnership with the new Big East (if it happens) and the ACC.

Maybe home and home partnerships, Georgetown:Syracuse, MU:Louisville, Butler:Duke, Nova:UNC, a pairing of rivalries and similar styles/traditions.

I think there would be good money in such a deal for both conferences.

Quote from: chapman on December 11, 2012, 07:46:24 PM
Nothing to do with recruiting as far as conference affiliation so much as that it's a high fixed cost to lease the BC.  Go to a conference that fills the schedule with 9 home games that don't put butts in seats and you've got to move your games.

Do we even pay to lease the BC? I'm pretty sure the Bucks do not. I thought it just made the teams split pro-shop and concession revenue?

I stand corrected. MU pays $20,000 a game but gets split of sales.
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2006/10/23/daily39.html

One small thing to consider is the fate of the BC. In 5 years, the Bucks are either leaving (most likely) or getting a new arena. Either way, I feel Marquette's contribution will go up significantly as either the only tenant or tenant of the Bucks' new arena. All of a sudden we could be out of a stadium. 

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 11, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
According to the ESPN article mentioned earlier they don't have the ability to dissolve the league:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Temple's "vote" is in dispute right now.  One side thinks Temple has full voting privileges, the other side says not until July 1.  A literal interpretation of the by-laws would make Temple - at this moment in time - a "Football Affiliate" per Article 14.01 and not a "Member" as defined in Article 4.01.  This distinction is significant because you must be a Member in order to have voting privileges on the Board.

Quote from: Benny B on December 11, 2012, 11:56:54 PM
Temple's "vote" is in dispute right now.  One side thinks Temple has full voting privileges, the other side says not until July 1.  A literal interpretation of the by-laws would make Temple - at this moment in time - a "Football Affiliate" per Article 14.01 and not a "Member" as defined in Article 4.01.  This distinction is significant because you must be a Member in order to have voting privileges on the Board.

The somewhat amusing thing is that Temple has more years as a member of the BE than DePaul, MU, USF, Cincy and obviously all of the latest additions. Miami took the lead in getting them booted and the ironic thing is that they left the BE anyways. Strange that their vote could determine the ultimate outcome of the conference. I would think they would want to keep it together since it would provide a home for their football team. Of course the BE would have such a gray area when it comes to such an important vote.

GTown and SJU led the opposition against the addition of Penn State. Wouldnt it be ironic if a football school prevented those two from getting what they may ultimately want? Then again, Im not so sure GTown would want to leave the fball schools; they have a very large athletic department, relatively speaking....and would need to find a home for many of their sports.

Whatever happened to negotiating in private?  There are media rights negotiations going on, but throwing this dissension out in public probably not earning schools like MU more money.  Pretty sure these networks are not unpleased with all of this.  Aresco has been unimpressive, especially if Larry said these schools were never consulted about adding Tulane.  Weren't the 7 behind rousting Marinetto and adding this guy?  Clown College by schools without a real plan or control of their destiny as they are in panic mode. Color me as Doubting Thomas.

Maybe the negotiations are why this is happening. If numbers are coming in and the basketball schools are thinking "football's going to leave us with WHAT?" while at the same time having the ability to steer the conference in a new direction that favors basketball going forward and also beginning a completely different set of media rights negotiations, now seems to be the only time.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 12, 2012, 07:10:02 AM
Maybe the negotiations are why this is happening. If numbers are coming in and the basketball schools are thinking "football's going to leave us with WHAT?" while at the same time having the ability to steer the conference in a new direction that favors basketball going forward and also beginning a completely different set of media rights negotiations, now seems to be the only time.

Oh, I am sure it is.  But this was "their guy" they put into place and he wasn't consulting with them? Seriously, this is a tail wagging the dog reaction situation although it may be their only move left.  I do know that in any negotiations, you try to split alliances and ESPN has done it masterfully as the rats are tripping over themselves getting off the sinking ship.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 11, 2012, 10:44:42 PM
Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

Always a chance, since "not at this time" in the conference realignment game has meant "not this week".  But they'd take St. John's before Villanova.

Great article about this in today's Providence Journal by Kevin McNamara.  Can anyone link?

Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 11, 2012, 10:30:22 PM
It's almost like this guy is completely unaware that two A-10 members have already defected to the greener pastures of "The Titanic" and Conference USA, which I guess would be the SS Minnow.

To be fair, both of those moves were football related.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 12, 2012, 07:37:51 AM
Oh, I am sure it is.  But this was "their guy" they put into place and he wasn't consulting with them? Seriously, this is a tail wagging the dog reaction situation although it may be their only move left.  I do know that in any negotiations, you try to split alliances and ESPN has done it masterfully as the rats are tripping over themselves getting off the sinking ship.

Actually I don't think the basketball schools are in nearly that desperate a situation as the football schools.  The football schools are going to see their television rights and their bowl payouts shrink substantially.  The basketball schools, without the hindrance of football, can really set their own course.  If the figures being thrown about are accurate, they are very likely going to at least match their television rights deal, and frankly put together a better basketball brand than what exists in the new Big East.

Quote from: ATWizJr on December 12, 2012, 08:07:26 AM
Great article about this in today's Providence Journal by Kevin McNamara.  Can anyone link?

I don't have a link to the article, but I found his chat from yesterday.http://news.providencejournal.com/sports/college/2012/12/noon-today-college-basketball-chat-with-kevin-mcnamara.html (http://news.providencejournal.com/sports/college/2012/12/noon-today-college-basketball-chat-with-kevin-mcnamara.html)  These questions and answers pertain to our topic.

Comment From CraigL78
Hi Kevin, do you think the basketball schools are finally getting serious about going out on their own? I am sure that must have been more informal talks before this last Sunday's meeting. Also, do you think Temple can realistically derail their plans if they decide to dissolve?

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Hey Craig. The basketball schools have been talking among themselves on these issues for a long while. This apparently was a larger gathering including Presidents, which is big. These schools are run by priests and other leader, not by AD's. That can't be said of some of these football people. The Temple issue will take care of itself. It will not derail anything but no that the 7 basketball schools are NOT all in...as of yet.


Comment From Gene-Gene
Other than Dayton or Xavier being mentioned to possibly join the 7 basketball schools in a possible reallignment.Any other scholls that you seee could be mentioned in that discussion? Any Atlantic 10 scholols ike St. Joes?

Comment From Kevin McNamara
If I was the commissioner of a Big East Catholic League, I would want 10 schools, max. That would be 18 league games, home-and-home. Perfect number. I think you need 2 from the Xavier, Dayton, Butler mix to get to 9. For a 10th school, I would think creatively with no restrictions. May not be an A-10 school.


Comment From Jim B
Is an ACC-Big East "merger" really that far-fetched if the top ACC football schools are poached and all that remains is Duke, Wake, Miami and the old Big East schools (Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, etc.)? Seems like the big football dreams of those schools will be dashed at that point and thus a hybrid conference could work (until it doesn't).

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Think through the numbers. How many ACC football powers are there and how many would be needed to move? Probably talking 2-4, max (FSU, Clemson, Ga Tech top the list for a SEC or Big 10/Big 12). The ACC would have to lose 6 or more schools to be reduced to a state where it would need a bulk of new members. They would look for full members like UConn, Cincy, SFlorida, Memphis and get back to 10-12 members and be happy. See no benefit of ever adding a GTown, St. John's, Marquette for hoops only.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 12, 2012, 08:43:36 AM

Actually I don't think the basketball schools are in nearly that desperate a situation as the football schools.  The football schools are going to see their television rights and their bowl payouts shrink substantially.  The basketball schools, without the hindrance of football, can really set their own course.  If the figures being thrown about are accurate, they are very likely going to at least match their television rights deal, and frankly put together a better basketball brand than what exists in the new Big East.

.

Oh I agree...timing is right but stfu about it in public and control your commissioner from making deals that box you in...and use ESPN, don't let them use you.  Instead we get all this speculation about imploding and merging with a crappy A10 which erodes your position.  There are assets these 7 control in this window that are bankable, lead with them. Tulane changed everything. 

UNC goes to the B1G and Duke comes to the new 10 team BEAST after adding Xavier and Butler.

A man can dream, right?

A couple of comments:

At start of this season MU was 45th on all time win list with 1494 wins and Dayton was 46th with 1491 wins. We past up Dayton last year.

Gonzaga model might just be referring to be the big fish in a non-BCS conference. The 5 best basketball conferences over time should be ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10 and SEC and the rest of the conferences will be considered mid-major or worse. Our goal should be to be the 6th best conference(the top mid-major). Of course the Pac 10 has shown that even a power conference can be weak in basketball, but over a 10 year period I would expect the five big football conferences to be the best basketball conferences. The easiest way for the Catholic 7 to pass up the Atlantic 10 would be to get Xavier and Dayton to jump to new league. Get Creighton from Missouri Valley and you damage that league. Gonzaga hits another small multi-bid league. The new league in a good year should have a chance to be a top 5 league, but it should always on paper be at least the 6th best league.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 12, 2012, 08:57:54 AM
UNC goes to the B1G and Duke comes to the new 10 team BEAST after adding Xavier and Butler.

A man can dream, right?

There may be some lucidity to the dream...

Let's say - hypothetically - Duke loses $10M on football & the ACC contract drops to $13M per school if UNC were to go to the Big ?.  Could a 10/12-team Big East that includes Duke get a TV contract worth more than $3M per school?  If so, it would make financial sense for Duke to jump ship.  The real question is whether Duke sees football as important or essential to its long-term vision.

In any event, something tells me that Duke will field a bupkiss football team in the ACC as long as they're raking in $17.1M/yr on the ACC contract.

Quote from: larrym on December 12, 2012, 08:45:16 AM

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Think through the numbers. How many ACC football powers are there and how many would be needed to move? Probably talking 2-4, max (FSU, Clemson, Ga Tech top the list for a SEC or Big 10/Big 12). The ACC would have to lose 6 or more schools to be reduced to a state where it would need a bulk of new members. They would look for full members like UConn, Cincy, SFlorida, Memphis and get back to 10-12 members and be happy. See no benefit of ever adding a GTown, St. John's, Marquette for hoops only.

This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 12, 2012, 10:57:46 AM
This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

If the Big East's football teams had been as consistently good as the SEC's are, then it would have worked.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 12, 2012, 10:57:46 AM
This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

I've been wondering this for a little while, especially when you have made comments like this, but is the hybrid the reason the Big East failed? I always had it in my mind that it was because our football was mediocre at best and didn't really have the big state schools that other conferences did.

I have wondered if the Big Ten had 4 bball only schools if they would be facing this problem, and I don't think they would. The Big East was always on the fringe of the BCS and I thought that had more to do with competitiveness and makeup of schools (granted the latter may be due to the hybrid). I am not a big college football fan and haven't followed realignment closely, so would be interested to hear the response to this.

Interesting post from the Georgetown boards.  They think Marquette will be joined at the hip, which is probably about right.

QuoteCall me crazy but I'm bullish on DePaul's potential not to be a perennial basketball doormat. The University is looking at several options to at least move the team's home games away from the despicable, impossibly-far-in-Chicago-traffic Allstate Arena back into the city. That's a start. What they need next is to hit a coaching hire homerun (sorry, Old Man Purnell isn't the answer). They need somebody youthful with the energy not just to recruit and coach, but to do all of the little things that bond a program to its school. A Tim Miles type.

I will never otherwise speak positively about this man, but it was that kind of energy that Creepy Crean brought to a destitute Marquette program in the late 1990s that completely turned that program around into something respectable (along with Dwayne Wade) and led directly to Marquette getting these past few years in the Big East limelight. There's an argument to be made that without Crean and Dwayne Wade, neither Marquette nor DePaul ever join the Big East when basketball-only expansion became important after the BC/Miami/VaTech departures. Marquette was a Dayton-quality program by the end of the Mike Deane era.

The weird thing about this whole basketball-only realignment discussion is that everybody out there who isn't from within the Hoyas family basically views Georgetown as the single dominant hoops brand around whom this whole thing needs to be built. Given Hoya Paranoia and our own unceasing insecurity around here about money, facilities, university commitment to championship-caliber hoops, etc., it is less easy for us to perceive this. But I do hope that this outside perception translates into a leadership role for Georgetown in these hoops-first school discussions. I haven't read every one of the previous gazillions posts in this thread, but I assume someone has already pointed out that it probably helps both Marquette and Georgetown in these discussions to have Father Pilarz in charge at MU these days. It would be very surprising if Marquette and Gtown weren't on the same page with just about everything, and if MU wouldn't basically follow whatever path Georgetown wants to take.

obviously that hoya post was from a hoya perspective, but I think right now, in this situation, MU and Gtown are equals, not MU just following Gtown blindly like a little brother.

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 12, 2012, 02:05:36 PM
obviously that hoya post was from a hoya perspective, but I think right now, in this situation, MU and Gtown are equals, not MU just following Gtown blindly like a little brother.

They're sensitive over there; I've been yelled at before for calling them "GTown".  They prefer GU.

GU, has better history or at least more recent, has been as good or l slighlty better the last 10 years and is in a better Media market, and is rated higher.  I would put us below GU. in a pecking order. but we might be the next B ball only school behind them.

Someone tell our (a)Hoya brethren that MU has the utmost respect for GU and we're going to take very good care of them... we'll make sure they get the most comfortable chair at the head of the Big Boy table once MU gets it all set it up for them. :)

Haha, I'm not trying to rag on GU (or whatever), I'm just saying, it's not like they're in a massively better position than us. We're better off working together as equals than one school trying to be the 1-eyed king in the land of the blind.

Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 12, 2012, 02:20:24 PM
Haha, I'm not trying to rag on GU (or whatever), I'm just saying, it's not like they're in a massively better position than us. We're better off working together as equals than one school trying to be the 1-eyed king in the land of the blind.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m42ntr9qZo1rohz9zo1_500.jpg)

GU is merely Richard Pryor to MU's Gene Wilder.

Quote from: Benny B on December 12, 2012, 02:25:39 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m42ntr9qZo1rohz9zo1_500.jpg)

GU is merely Richard Pryor to MU's Gene Wilder.

Heh.  Here is video of MU and GU going into the big vote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbZcT8RXgE

Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

I can't say anything bad about Tulane.  I don't know anything about where Tulane is, or what their academics look like.  I haven't ever thought of them even having sports programs. 

Who cares what they think, they're irrelevant.  Burn?

Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 12, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
I can't say anything bad about Tulane.  I don't know anything about where Tulane is, or what their academics look like.  I haven't ever thought of them even having sports programs. 

Who cares what they think, they're irrelevant.  Burn?

Fantastic school.  Not so great in athletics. 

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

(http://cdn.indulgy.com/x3/xC/o9/120049146287406177DsHG7onbc.jpg)
OMG... that's adorable.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

Payback for LeDaryl Billingsley.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 12, 2012, 04:52:55 PM
Payback for LeDaryl Billingsley.

Or for stealing Dan Fitz.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

Yup. They have some ugly babies.

This all feels like a bunch of karma. The Big East was founded as a basketball conference. Well, after roughly 2 decades of football slowly taking over the roost, the basketball schools have their moxie back and can dictate a bit. So all the football schools that are already here should be advised that if they want to stick around, it will be on our terms. And if you joined up in hopes of the great nationwide football conference...well, let's just say that as good as this league has been to us, it hasn't always been what was promised, and now the "incoming" football schools aren't exactly getting what they were promised.

Sorry, SMU, Houston, Tulane, and ECU, I'm sure you're nice people with lofty aspirations for your programs, but if you want this nationwide football powerhouse, you might not be the exact schools to execute that plan, and this conference certainly doesn't look like the place you'll be doing that.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

Perhaps Tulane and Dayton can start the new Inferiority Complex Conference together.  I-C-C! 

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 12, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Tulane fans ripping on Marquette. Love everyone getting pissed at Marquette for talking big.

http://www.yogwf.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39188&start=125

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31801284.jpg)

 @McMurphyESPN Big East hoops schools expected to release statement on future plans [soon]. Source: would be an "upset" if they remained

Quote from: MuMark on December 12, 2012, 11:06:44 PM
@McMurphyESPN Big East hoops schools expected to release statement on future plans [soon]. Source: would be an "upset" if they remained

That was quick.

Quote from: PTM on December 11, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
If you're interested, here's what the map would look like after kicking out the BE football schools and adding Dayton, Xaiver, Butler, SLU and Creighton.

Not so bad geographically.  I still don't understand the insistence of SLU's inclusion.  They suck at basketball (last year notwithstanding) and do not add the St. Louis market.  SLU means as much to the STL market as UMass does to Boston - practically nothing.  Is it just to make a certain number of teams?  Or is it the likewise stupid insistence that this hypothetical league be dominated by Catholic-affiliated schools?