Catholic 7 Meeting?

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

I wouldn't want to dismiss Dayton just because of one poster/letter writer, but on the other hand, I kind of do.  As noted earlier in the thread, what a dbag:

"DAYTON (OH) -- To Whom it May Concern, namely DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and Villanova:

I understand that you've been having a Maalox Moment or two, so I'd like to address some of your concerns to help explain your indigestion about the continuing implosion of the Big East Conference -- the home turf for all of your athletic programs. And when I say indigestion, I mean panic attacks about your potential irrelevance from the college basketball landscape. My purpose is not to allay your fears but rather substantiate them. As chaotic and desperate as you think they are, I believe there is sound evidence to suggest your fears don't go far enough. They are ever-present, but they are also victim to the sin of spin. Your depth perception is inside-out, and it's worth my time to provide an outside-in viewpoint to cast a proper light on the changing college landscape.

So here goes.

In a nutshell, you're screwed. Not blindfold-and-cigarette screwed, but short on options and shorter on time. You're Jack Dawson on the Titanic and Celine Dion is clearing her throat. The good news is there are lifeboats. The bad news is you came from steerage and those lifeboats aren't for you. In two hours the ship will founder and the best you can hope for is to use the body of a dead porter as an improvised flotation device until help arrives -- but it's no sure thing they'll find you floating among the debris, alive, worth saving.

In basketball parlance, the Big East is the Titanic, college football is the iceberg, and the A10 is the RMS Carpathia. When the Carpathia trawls the debris field for survivors, folks like yourself aren't in a position of strength to demand hot towels and a wine list. You might have been a passenger on the grandest ocean liner to ever set sail, but that was two hours ago. Nobody cares anymore and the royal crest you've been bear-hugging presently sleeps at the bottom of the north Atlantic. You're like everyone else now, but still cling to the Guggenheim attitude.

Glad we could be there to offer a rescue. Want to know more about our swashbuckling sloop? Consider the following.

The A10 holds all of the face cards and authors their own future. The private A10 schools are not going to retreat from the stability and security of the top basketball-only conference in the country and venture out into shark-infested waters where schools are cannibalizing their own league members, jockeying for position, and lobbying over one another into conferences that are completely unstable geographic nightmares of greed, self-absorption, and academic antagonism.

Do I foresee institutions leaving the dead calm of the A10 to form a new basketball-centric conference amid the unpredictable swells and whitecaps of present-day re-alignment? No way -- not unless its under the terms, conditions, and timetable of the departing A10 members. There is too much chaos and uncertainty to abandon a perfectly good ship and swim for the promise of an uncharted land mass.

Especially not after Butler and VCU were just added to the improving conference. It's hard to imagine Butler and VCU accepting invitations to the A10 without the darnedest assurances from Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis that a bait-and-switch was not eminent.

The A10 is the safe haven at the moment. League members control their own fates and have a timetable based on a sun dial instead of a stopwatch. Members recognize as a stable league, their strength is in numbers.

The A10 is a league many institutions are intrigued to join -- not parachute out of. More schools want a boarding pass than vacant staterooms to fill. The climate is getting more and more advantageous to the A10 as FBS football implodes the college landscape. Even a traveling salesman understands market forces. The A10 office recognizes their position of strength at the bargaining table. The strength is not absolute, but the leverage is undeniable.

Bernadette McGlade knew this last year when she added the Bulldogs and Rams. Her hand is only that much stronger and strengthening by the hour. The A10 doesn't need the Big East basketball schools to survive. A nice addition? Certainly. A necessity? No. Big East basketball schools may ultimately reach a point however where their fate is determined by others only -- on the timetable of others and at the mercy of others.

None of this is to suggest Big East basketball members compare unfavorably to the brass hats of the A10. Marquette, Villanova, and Georgetown have reached Final Fours in recent years. St. John's is still St. John's. Comparing one Big East school to one A10 school is not the comparison that will re-map the landscape however. Power rests in the hands of those most capable of retreating to their existing ships and staying above the waterline. The A10 does not need a flotilla of supply ships to remain at sea for an extended period. She's stocked, cocked, and water-tight. More than that, all hands on deck believe in her.

The A10 schools have historically operated on a smaller budget than schools in the Big East. Maintaining the status quo is just another day at the office. Members are used to stretching a dollar. The A10 brass -- Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, Butler, St. Joe, and VCU -- are not going to let dollar signs overcome them by some newfangled Big East Redux 2.0 unless it's more bulletproof than the Merrimack.

Why?

The A10 schools would be assuming 100% of the risk while the Big East schools would be taking on none of the risk. When you have nothing to lose, you can't. But A10 schools have everything to lose because they would be folding an already strong hand for a new deal of unknown cards. A10 schools are happy and content where they are if that's the worst case scenario. That's not the case with the basketball schools in the Big East. The problem with musical chairs is there's never a chair for everyone. Big East schools are killing each other to find a seat at the table -- any table.

You've worked hard to convince yourself that everything is the other way around and when Big East basketball schools say "jump", A10 schools shout "how high?", but its nothing more than a half-baked Baghdad Bob impersonation. Whatever happens will happen because the A10 schools chose it to happen. They hold the decisive veto.

Time is wasting and you've already wasted plenty of that. During the favorable weather when most skippers were tightening up their rigging and caulking their hulls, you only had time to count the checks. You were a grand ship but you're nothing but a memory now. Just a cold, rusty, maritime relic sitting alone with no passengers and no port-of-call.

The A10 might not be the ship of royalty, but she's our ship and certainly worth fighting for. You can denigrate her all you like, but she still floats. Rather than order our sailors and officers to command a new ship under your slanted and corrupted oversight, perhaps it will be us barking the orders and assigning the bunks, on our own trusty boat, warts and all, in a manner and timetable of our choosing.

If and when that happens, Celine will be in rare form. Big East basketball schools won't have a heart that goes on. It will have an ongoing heart attack."

It's almost like this guy is completely unaware that two A-10 members have already defected to the greener pastures of "The Titanic" and Conference USA, which I guess would be the SS Minnow.

[TallTitan34]

Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

[forgetful]

Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

I don't think they would.  What would be kind of nice, but will never ever ever happen, is to reconcile and have a partnership with the new Big East (if it happens) and the ACC.

Maybe home and home partnerships, Georgetown:Syracuse, MU:Louisville, Butler:Duke, Nova:UNC, a pairing of rivalries and similar styles/traditions.

I think there would be good money in such a deal for both conferences.

[martyconlonontherun]

Nothing to do with recruiting as far as conference affiliation so much as that it's a high fixed cost to lease the BC.  Go to a conference that fills the schedule with 9 home games that don't put butts in seats and you've got to move your games.

Do we even pay to lease the BC? I'm pretty sure the Bucks do not. I thought it just made the teams split pro-shop and concession revenue?

[martyconlonontherun]

I stand corrected. MU pays $20,000 a game but gets split of sales.
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2006/10/23/daily39.html

One small thing to consider is the fate of the BC. In 5 years, the Bucks are either leaving (most likely) or getting a new arena. Either way, I feel Marquette's contribution will go up significantly as either the only tenant or tenant of the Bucks' new arena. All of a sudden we could be out of a stadium. 

[Benny B]

According to the ESPN article mentioned earlier they don't have the ability to dissolve the league:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-eating-21-team-conference-source

Temple's "vote" is in dispute right now.  One side thinks Temple has full voting privileges, the other side says not until July 1.  A literal interpretation of the by-laws would make Temple - at this moment in time - a "Football Affiliate" per Article 14.01 and not a "Member" as defined in Article 4.01.  This distinction is significant because you must be a Member in order to have voting privileges on the Board.

[honkytonk]

Temple's "vote" is in dispute right now.  One side thinks Temple has full voting privileges, the other side says not until July 1.  A literal interpretation of the by-laws would make Temple - at this moment in time - a "Football Affiliate" per Article 14.01 and not a "Member" as defined in Article 4.01.  This distinction is significant because you must be a Member in order to have voting privileges on the Board.

The somewhat amusing thing is that Temple has more years as a member of the BE than DePaul, MU, USF, Cincy and obviously all of the latest additions. Miami took the lead in getting them booted and the ironic thing is that they left the BE anyways. Strange that their vote could determine the ultimate outcome of the conference. I would think they would want to keep it together since it would provide a home for their football team. Of course the BE would have such a gray area when it comes to such an important vote.

GTown and SJU led the opposition against the addition of Penn State. Wouldnt it be ironic if a football school prevented those two from getting what they may ultimately want? Then again, Im not so sure GTown would want to leave the fball schools; they have a very large athletic department, relatively speaking....and would need to find a home for many of their sports.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Whatever happened to negotiating in private?  There are media rights negotiations going on, but throwing this dissension out in public probably not earning schools like MU more money.  Pretty sure these networks are not unpleased with all of this.  Aresco has been unimpressive, especially if Larry said these schools were never consulted about adding Tulane.  Weren't the 7 behind rousting Marinetto and adding this guy?  Clown College by schools without a real plan or control of their destiny as they are in panic mode. Color me as Doubting Thomas.

[brewcity77]

Maybe the negotiations are why this is happening. If numbers are coming in and the basketball schools are thinking "football's going to leave us with WHAT?" while at the same time having the ability to steer the conference in a new direction that favors basketball going forward and also beginning a completely different set of media rights negotiations, now seems to be the only time.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Maybe the negotiations are why this is happening. If numbers are coming in and the basketball schools are thinking "football's going to leave us with WHAT?" while at the same time having the ability to steer the conference in a new direction that favors basketball going forward and also beginning a completely different set of media rights negotiations, now seems to be the only time.

Oh, I am sure it is.  But this was "their guy" they put into place and he wasn't consulting with them? Seriously, this is a tail wagging the dog reaction situation although it may be their only move left.  I do know that in any negotiations, you try to split alliances and ESPN has done it masterfully as the rats are tripping over themselves getting off the sinking ship.

[chapman]

Any chance the ACC would move on Georgetown and Villanova in an attempt to destroy the basketball only league which they may see as a threat>

Always a chance, since "not at this time" in the conference realignment game has meant "not this week".  But they'd take St. John's before Villanova.

[ATWizJr]

Great article about this in today's Providence Journal by Kevin McNamara.  Can anyone link?

[GGGG]

It's almost like this guy is completely unaware that two A-10 members have already defected to the greener pastures of "The Titanic" and Conference USA, which I guess would be the SS Minnow.

To be fair, both of those moves were football related.

[GGGG]

Oh, I am sure it is.  But this was "their guy" they put into place and he wasn't consulting with them? Seriously, this is a tail wagging the dog reaction situation although it may be their only move left.  I do know that in any negotiations, you try to split alliances and ESPN has done it masterfully as the rats are tripping over themselves getting off the sinking ship.

Actually I don't think the basketball schools are in nearly that desperate a situation as the football schools.  The football schools are going to see their television rights and their bowl payouts shrink substantially.  The basketball schools, without the hindrance of football, can really set their own course.  If the figures being thrown about are accurate, they are very likely going to at least match their television rights deal, and frankly put together a better basketball brand than what exists in the new Big East.

[larrym]

Great article about this in today's Providence Journal by Kevin McNamara.  Can anyone link?

I don't have a link to the article, but I found his chat from yesterday.http://news.providencejournal.com/sports/college/2012/12/noon-today-college-basketball-chat-with-kevin-mcnamara.html  These questions and answers pertain to our topic.

Comment From CraigL78
Hi Kevin, do you think the basketball schools are finally getting serious about going out on their own? I am sure that must have been more informal talks before this last Sunday's meeting. Also, do you think Temple can realistically derail their plans if they decide to dissolve?

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Hey Craig. The basketball schools have been talking among themselves on these issues for a long while. This apparently was a larger gathering including Presidents, which is big. These schools are run by priests and other leader, not by AD's. That can't be said of some of these football people. The Temple issue will take care of itself. It will not derail anything but no that the 7 basketball schools are NOT all in...as of yet.


Comment From Gene-Gene
Other than Dayton or Xavier being mentioned to possibly join the 7 basketball schools in a possible reallignment.Any other scholls that you seee could be mentioned in that discussion? Any Atlantic 10 scholols ike St. Joes?

Comment From Kevin McNamara
If I was the commissioner of a Big East Catholic League, I would want 10 schools, max. That would be 18 league games, home-and-home. Perfect number. I think you need 2 from the Xavier, Dayton, Butler mix to get to 9. For a 10th school, I would think creatively with no restrictions. May not be an A-10 school.


Comment From Jim B
Is an ACC-Big East "merger" really that far-fetched if the top ACC football schools are poached and all that remains is Duke, Wake, Miami and the old Big East schools (Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, etc.)? Seems like the big football dreams of those schools will be dashed at that point and thus a hybrid conference could work (until it doesn't).

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Think through the numbers. How many ACC football powers are there and how many would be needed to move? Probably talking 2-4, max (FSU, Clemson, Ga Tech top the list for a SEC or Big 10/Big 12). The ACC would have to lose 6 or more schools to be reduced to a state where it would need a bulk of new members. They would look for full members like UConn, Cincy, SFlorida, Memphis and get back to 10-12 members and be happy. See no benefit of ever adding a GTown, St. John's, Marquette for hoops only.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Actually I don't think the basketball schools are in nearly that desperate a situation as the football schools.  The football schools are going to see their television rights and their bowl payouts shrink substantially.  The basketball schools, without the hindrance of football, can really set their own course.  If the figures being thrown about are accurate, they are very likely going to at least match their television rights deal, and frankly put together a better basketball brand than what exists in the new Big East.

.

Oh I agree...timing is right but stfu about it in public and control your commissioner from making deals that box you in...and use ESPN, don't let them use you.  Instead we get all this speculation about imploding and merging with a crappy A10 which erodes your position.  There are assets these 7 control in this window that are bankable, lead with them. Tulane changed everything. 

[Hards Alumni]

UNC goes to the B1G and Duke comes to the new 10 team BEAST after adding Xavier and Butler.

A man can dream, right?

[bilsu]

A couple of comments:

At start of this season MU was 45th on all time win list with 1494 wins and Dayton was 46th with 1491 wins. We past up Dayton last year.

Gonzaga model might just be referring to be the big fish in a non-BCS conference. The 5 best basketball conferences over time should be ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10 and SEC and the rest of the conferences will be considered mid-major or worse. Our goal should be to be the 6th best conference(the top mid-major). Of course the Pac 10 has shown that even a power conference can be weak in basketball, but over a 10 year period I would expect the five big football conferences to be the best basketball conferences. The easiest way for the Catholic 7 to pass up the Atlantic 10 would be to get Xavier and Dayton to jump to new league. Get Creighton from Missouri Valley and you damage that league. Gonzaga hits another small multi-bid league. The new league in a good year should have a chance to be a top 5 league, but it should always on paper be at least the 6th best league.

[Benny B]

UNC goes to the B1G and Duke comes to the new 10 team BEAST after adding Xavier and Butler.

A man can dream, right?

There may be some lucidity to the dream...

Let's say - hypothetically - Duke loses $10M on football & the ACC contract drops to $13M per school if UNC were to go to the Big ?.  Could a 10/12-team Big East that includes Duke get a TV contract worth more than $3M per school?  If so, it would make financial sense for Duke to jump ship.  The real question is whether Duke sees football as important or essential to its long-term vision.

In any event, something tells me that Duke will field a bupkiss football team in the ACC as long as they're raking in $17.1M/yr on the ACC contract.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Comment From Kevin McNamara
Think through the numbers. How many ACC football powers are there and how many would be needed to move? Probably talking 2-4, max (FSU, Clemson, Ga Tech top the list for a SEC or Big 10/Big 12). The ACC would have to lose 6 or more schools to be reduced to a state where it would need a bulk of new members. They would look for full members like UConn, Cincy, SFlorida, Memphis and get back to 10-12 members and be happy. See no benefit of ever adding a GTown, St. John's, Marquette for hoops only.

This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

[jficke13]

This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

If the Big East's football teams had been as consistently good as the SEC's are, then it would have worked.

[cheebs09]

This is where my head is, not sure why a football conference would want to add basketball only schools....the Big East just proved it doesn't work.

I've been wondering this for a little while, especially when you have made comments like this, but is the hybrid the reason the Big East failed? I always had it in my mind that it was because our football was mediocre at best and didn't really have the big state schools that other conferences did.

I have wondered if the Big Ten had 4 bball only schools if they would be facing this problem, and I don't think they would. The Big East was always on the fringe of the BCS and I thought that had more to do with competitiveness and makeup of schools (granted the latter may be due to the hybrid). I am not a big college football fan and haven't followed realignment closely, so would be interested to hear the response to this.

[WarriorDoc]

Interesting post from the Georgetown boards.  They think Marquette will be joined at the hip, which is probably about right.

Call me crazy but I'm bullish on DePaul's potential not to be a perennial basketball doormat. The University is looking at several options to at least move the team's home games away from the despicable, impossibly-far-in-Chicago-traffic Allstate Arena back into the city. That's a start. What they need next is to hit a coaching hire homerun (sorry, Old Man Purnell isn't the answer). They need somebody youthful with the energy not just to recruit and coach, but to do all of the little things that bond a program to its school. A Tim Miles type.

I will never otherwise speak positively about this man, but it was that kind of energy that Creepy Crean brought to a destitute Marquette program in the late 1990s that completely turned that program around into something respectable (along with Dwayne Wade) and led directly to Marquette getting these past few years in the Big East limelight. There's an argument to be made that without Crean and Dwayne Wade, neither Marquette nor DePaul ever join the Big East when basketball-only expansion became important after the BC/Miami/VaTech departures. Marquette was a Dayton-quality program by the end of the Mike Deane era.

The weird thing about this whole basketball-only realignment discussion is that everybody out there who isn't from within the Hoyas family basically views Georgetown as the single dominant hoops brand around whom this whole thing needs to be built. Given Hoya Paranoia and our own unceasing insecurity around here about money, facilities, university commitment to championship-caliber hoops, etc., it is less easy for us to perceive this. But I do hope that this outside perception translates into a leadership role for Georgetown in these hoops-first school discussions. I haven't read every one of the previous gazillions posts in this thread, but I assume someone has already pointed out that it probably helps both Marquette and Georgetown in these discussions to have Father Pilarz in charge at MU these days. It would be very surprising if Marquette and Gtown weren't on the same page with just about everything, and if MU wouldn't basically follow whatever path Georgetown wants to take.

[jficke13]

obviously that hoya post was from a hoya perspective, but I think right now, in this situation, MU and Gtown are equals, not MU just following Gtown blindly like a little brother.

[TJ]

obviously that hoya post was from a hoya perspective, but I think right now, in this situation, MU and Gtown are equals, not MU just following Gtown blindly like a little brother.

They're sensitive over there; I've been yelled at before for calling them "GTown".  They prefer GU.