CNNSI's Luke Winn's predictions. "Williams would have to seriously botch..."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Speaking of pathetic (not amusing).  Player Development:  It has been said that one of the main reasons OB left MU was because he felt coach "ME" had little to offer him in terms of development.  (If correct, it seems pretty visionary to me.) I'm not saying OB's decision to leave was correct, but I sure could understand that thinking.  Coaching:  The last five minutes of the Stanford game were abysmal inspite of coach "ME" 's 6 inch thick play book, motivational speakers, karate classes, high altitude work outs, etc.  To me this was signature Tommy Tan.

Thanks for the reassurance that Tommy isn't coming back.

That begs the question...how did OB develop at UNLV.   I think that pretty much ends that story.   OB wanted to be the showcase player and Crean was right to build the offense around Wade.  OB wanted to show his range for the NBA scouts (which he tried to do at UNLV and failed to do it there as well). 

[mviale]

ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player. 

Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs

[ChicosBailBonds]

ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player. 

Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs

Not really....look deeper into the statistics (look at the competition).  I watched him a lot out here on west coast tv.  His 3 point shot never came around.   I remember his senior year thinking how unfortunate it was.  His junior year he tried to go pro but pulled out of the draft because there was just no way it was going to happen.  So he was set to have this monster senior season and he actually got worse if I recall....just about every major category.

He was a me first player and that was exemplified at UNLV.  Very few assists, never met a shot he didn't like to take.

ODB had the NBA dream but not the right skills.  His posse was telling him he needed to be showcased.  He was at UNLV, a soft conference where he put up 17 points per game but he was never going to make it.  He did what he thought was right for him, but he missed out on a ring.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So...he could make in roads for a Final 4 team but two years later he loses one player to injury and he gets embarrassed at home by Western Mich in the NIT? How does he not have depth in years 5 and 6...oh yeah, I remember, he was running off players and assistants left and right.

It's more of CIS (Crean Infatuation Syndrome).

Move on, the dude left you and he ain't coming back.

Awww.... Come on DCK, we went over this 3 weeks ago. 

http://http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9249.msg78716#msg78716

You were blasting Crean in multiple non-Crean related threads at the time.

Please don't jump up on the soap box now and imply other people (specifically people that liked Crean) need to move on.

I think that might be the definition of hypocrisy.

[wadesworld]

What was that thing someone said that Crean blamed how he handled the position change on his wife having the flu?  I never heard about that, is that the truth?  How would that have to do with anything?

[Pakuni]

Speaking of pathetic (not amusing).  Player Development:  It has been said that one of the main reasons OB left MU was because he felt coach "ME" had little to offer him in terms of development.  (If correct, it seems pretty visionary to me.) I'm not saying OB's decision to leave was correct, but I sure could understand that thinking.  Coaching:  The last five minutes of the Stanford game were abysmal inspite of coach "ME" 's 6 inch thick play book, motivational speakers, karate classes, high altitude work outs, etc.  To me this was signature Tommy Tan.

Thanks for the reassurance that Tommy isn't coming back.

ODB left because his AAU coach and others in Illinois convionced him he was never going to make the NBA playing in Dwyane Wade's shadow and in a system in which he was, at best, the third option.

These arguments, with all due respect, are retarded.
Tom Crean produced more NBA (or NBA-bound) talent out of Marquette than any coach not named McGuire. And he did it by and large with kids who, when they arrived on campus, were not seen as NBA players.

In the last three months, I've learned here that:

1. Tom Crean couldn't recruit
2. Tom Crean couldn't coach
3. Tom Crean was universally despised
4. Tom Crean did nothing for Marquette University, only for himself

And yet, despite all this ...
 5. During Tom Crean's tenure, Marquette basketball averaged 21 wins per season (23 when he started bringing in his own players), went to five NCAA tournaments in the last seven years, appeared in a Final Four, saw its attendance grow significantly, was invited to the premiere basketball conference in the nation and built one of the best practice facilities in the country.

Apparently TC is the luckiest man on the planet to have so much accomplished during his time at MU despite his complete and utter dearth of coaching, recruiting and people skills.  

Once again, some of you are acting like jilted boyfriends whose response to getting dumped is "I never liked the ugly skank anyways."

[NotAnAlum]

I agree with everything you say.  I don't know why we have to bash Crean.  If Buzz was able to just equal Crean's accomplishments that would be fine by me.  One of the reasons I'm so encouraged by the recent recruiting class and some of the info coming out about the team is NOT that I think it proves Buzz can be so much better than Crean.  To me it makes me feel that he might not be A STEP DOWN from Crean.  That's what I was worried about 3 months ago.  If Buzz has similiar success as TC only with his own spin to it he will be here 7 years from now and while I'm sure we'll all be complaining about a few things he could do differently, I don't see how anyone could be mad.  Just keep those top half of BE, top 25 most of the year, NCAA berth seasons coming.

[bilsu]

ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player. 

Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs

Blankson would have been better off staying at MU. However, I do think Crean would put players in dog house and it was almost impossible for them to get out. I think this more often occurred with backcourt players and then they would see little or no playing time. I do not think he was in the dog house, but I could never understand how a player like Lott can start out the season starting and end up not playing at all by seasons end.

[The Lens]

Awww.... Come on DCK, we went over this 3 weeks ago. 

http://http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9249.msg78716#msg78716

You were blasting Crean in multiple non-Crean related threads at the time.

Please don't jump up on the soap box now and imply other people (specifically people that liked Crean) need to move on.

I think that might be the definition of hypocrisy.

02 your level of obsession with me borders on unnerving.  Finding 3 week old posts?  You need a hobby.   

[77ncaachamps]

Pakuni, you're right in reinforcing the good that Crean did while he was here.

But I guess some of us had higher expectations.

And the same will continue under Buzz.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, you're right in reinforcing the good that Crean did while he was here.

But I guess some of us had higher expectations.

And the same will continue under Buzz.

If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.

[downtown85]

If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.

You forgot Villanova in your list of schools.  While Crean did a good job, I do not think the argument that MU doesn't have a football team or it gets cold in the winter are valid excuses for inabilty to coach or recruit at the absolutely highest levels.  Urban is a plus probably to most recruits.  Also, i think the fact there is a religious background to MU either doesn't matter or is likely a plus.  What it really comes down to is the coach and the coach's personality. Georgetown is a good example; Memphis is another. MU had plateaued under Crean.  What I like about Buzz is that he doesn't see the ceiling. 

[4everwarriors]

I don't think there's anyway any coach leaves that some people don't get all jilted up like their prom date left them.

Just my opinion.  Fans are consumed with their team and they can't understand why a coach would leave a place they love more than anything.  By the way, I believe Crean has said on multiple occasions that the way he informed folks wasn't the best way of doing things, plenty of interviews on it.   It's over, it's been months now and people are still hung up on this. 

Coaches come and coaches go, more so at a place like MU.




I have been, still am, and always will be thrilled T-Cubed left.

[rocky_warrior]

By the way, I believe Crean has said on multiple occasions that the way he informed folks wasn't the best way of doing things, plenty of interviews on it.   It's over, it's been months now and people are still hung up on this. 

Well, by that logic, as long as an ax murderer admits that he murdered several people with an ax, then he should be free to go.  I tell ya', it's a refreshing world we live in.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

02 your level of obsession with me borders on unnerving.  Finding 3 week old posts?  You need a hobby.   

Come on, dude.

I remembered the conversation/exchange we had and I went back and looked it up (took about 5 min).

When you put your thoughts in writing, be prepared to have them thrown back in your face. Own it.

You got called out for being a hypocrite. I used your own posts as evidence. Those who live in glass houses...

Don't comeback with something weaksauce like "you need a hobby". That's terrible, and you know it.

[Pakuni]

Well, by that logic, as long as an ax murderer admits that he murdered several people with an ax, then he should be free to go.  I tell ya', it's a refreshing world we live in.

How Tom Crean handled his departure is exactly analagous to chopping up another human being with an ax.

Outstanding.

[Phi Iota Gamma 84]

If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.

How about Notre Dame

[RawdogDX]

But I guess some of us had higher expectations.

So in the summer of 2002 you were sitting around thinking: "If over the next 7 years crean makes 5 NCAA's, gets us moved to a top conference, avgs a top 4 finish in that coference, wins 20+ games a year and makes 1 final four but then leaves for indiana, that will be disapointing."

I think your expectations continued to grow because of crean(as they should), not inspite of them.  And that is a coaches job to keep the general state of a program getting better.

[rocky_warrior]

How Tom Crean handled his departure is exactly analagous to chopping up another human being with an ax.

Pakuni, you're smart enough to know that the analogy is not in the actions, but rather people's reactions to the actions.  Let me give a few more examples so that you may perhaps grasp the concept....

If you're a peon in a large company, and the CEO has been selling trade secrets on the side - should you forgive him as soon as he admits that he's been doing it? 

If your child admits that he's been doing drugs, do you immediately give him a pass just because he came forward with it?

If your long time Karate instructor packs up and closes his business the night before your lesson, and then sends you a letter after the fact explaining that he cannot afford to give you a refund because he's going bankrupt, Do you go back to the same instructor when he opens a new business 3 months later with higher prices?

 
As I said, the analogy is not in the exact action of these people, but rather an individuals reaction to those actions.  Let me share my reactions with you:

Ax murderer - He goes to jail.  I would never associate with him after he got out.

CEO - I would never work for a company that he's leading again.

Child - I'd try to help him with his problem, but he's still have lost my trust and be under more scrutiny for a long while.

Karate instructor - He would lose my trust and business forever.  I'd find a new one and hope that he deals with his clients more appropriately.

Chicos original post that I replied to seemed to indicate that just because Crean admitted that he did things incorrectly when he left - we should immediately (within a few months) be able to get over it.  F that - the guy screwed MU over, I am a part of the MU community (or so they keep telling me), so I think it's well within my rights to hold a grudge for a while.

So...now I'm arguing with you over a point that I was refuting to Chicos, but the point remains the same.  I hope Marquette ends up better as a result of all this, but that doesn't mean my (or anyone's) distrust of TC should just vanish because he admitted he did something wrong.  'nuff said.

[RawdogDX]

Screwed us over!  Yeah we are so screwed over right now!  We have a top 25 team with a ton of senior leader ship, doesn't that suck!  And we have a new coach who just recruited a top 25 class in a few months!  I really wish Crean would have left before finding us such a capable replacement! 

How are we 'screwed'?

And for all your other examples none of them make sense. 

If your mother reveals she hasn't been your mother all your life, but actually your mother's twin sister and poisons your dad, then leaves with her new lesbian lover who actually happens to be your wife, would you have thanksgiving dinner with them, kenny g and Satan just two months later?

NO, and that's why we should all hate crean!

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, you're smart enough to know that the analogy is not in the actions, but rather people's reactions to the actions.  Let me give a few more examples so that you may perhaps grasp the concept....

I'm also smart enough to know that people's reactions to the actions should be relative to the actions themselves.
Tom Crean admitting his mistakes in making an inglorious departure from Marquette should not be reacted to the same as Jason Voohrees admitting he may have gone a bit overboard in killing a dozen oversexed teens at Camp Crystal Lake.

Seriously, I fail to see why people continue to be so wounded by Tom Crean's departure. He did not wrong any of you in any way. If the players/administration want to feel wrong by the way he left, that's their perogative. But you and other fans were not victimized here. The whole trust argument here is laughable. How exactly did he betray your trust?
Tom Crean owed you nothing more than to do the best job he could as MU basketball coach while he was MU basketball coach.

[rocky_warrior]

I should have known better than to start this argument.  I apologize for hijacking the thread.  I assume I'll be immediately forgiven

[RawdogDX]

I should have known better than to start this argument.  I apologize for hijacking the thread.  I assume I'll be immediately forgiven

Forgiven?  Well tell me this:
If you were camping and a pack of blood thirsty yettis attacked you...

[spiral97]

I should have known better than to start this argument.  I apologize for hijacking the thread.  I assume I'll be immediately forgiven

No.. apparently you have to throw a thanksgiving dinner for your lesbian ex-wife, kenny g, and satan first

But I agree with rocky.. we got screwed a bit and I'm one less supporter in Crean's camp as a result.  since we're all into (italicized) analogies here it's like

you buy a $25k diamond ring and propose to your girlfriend (she somehow says yes) and the next day you drive to work and find out your badge doesn't work.. you check with the security guard and he says "oh yeah.. we cut you last night".

The company might have set you up with an awesome resume, but you still gotta find a job to pay off the credit card charge for the $25k ring and quick.  Not that you can't but you're fairly guaranteed at least a week or two of lost wages and the risk that you may have to return the ring and get dumped by the fiance.  While it was completely within their rights to let you go the way they did, the company screwed ya (no matter the fact that you probably will recover quickly).

It was completely within Crean's rights to dump MU the way he did but he still screwed us.  We had a top 25 team on the plate but had to scramble to get a good replacement coach so we could keep it in the top 25 and not lose any members of it or any potential for it.  Sorry, but I wouldn't accept him as a head coach of my team again in the future.

[RawdogDX]

No.. apparently you have to throw a thanksgiving dinner for your lesbian ex-wife, kenny g, and satan first

But I agree with rocky.. we got screwed a bit and I'm one less supporter in Crean's camp as a result.  since we're all into (italicized) analogies here it's like

you buy a $25k diamond ring and propose to your girlfriend (she somehow says yes) and the next day you drive to work and find out your badge doesn't work.. you check with the security guard and he says "oh yeah.. we cut you last night".

The company might have set you up with an awesome resume, but you still gotta find a job to pay off the credit card charge for the $25k ring and quick.  Not that you can't but you're fairly guaranteed at least a week or two of lost wages and the risk that you may have to return the ring and get dumped by the fiance.  While it was completely within their rights to let you go the way they did, the company screwed ya (no matter the fact that you probably will recover quickly).

It was completely within Crean's rights to dump MU the way he did but he still screwed us.  We had a top 25 team on the plate but had to scramble to get a good replacement coach so we could keep it in the top 25 and not lose any members of it or any potential for it.  Sorry, but I wouldn't accept him as a head coach of my team again in the future.

I'm sorry if the parralles between the rediculousness of my comment and that of comparing him to an axe murderer friend and a drug using child weren't apperent.  My point is that you can claim anything is a metaphore for what happened. 

If a guy worked for you for 9 years, during wich time he was a top 10 proformer and regularly hired talented people to his managment team who were stolen away for better positions, told you he was given an amazing time sensitive offer that he felt like he had to say yes to right away, but that he felt he had the perfect replacement on staff already and you could promote him for a fairly seamless transition...

Yeah sounds like a psycotic, axe murdering, evil twin, cheating wife, drug using, commander leaving his men in battle like situation to me.