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Author Topic: Best class in 25 years!!  (Read 15456 times)

MR.HAYWARD

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Best class in 25 years!!
« on: July 07, 2008, 11:30:02 AM »
Mark Miller made the following comments:
The 2009 class of Erik Williams, Jerone Maymon, Junior Cadougan and Dwight Buycks would rank, at least in my opinion, with the 1990 class of Damon Key, Jim McIlivaine, Robb Logterman and Charles Brakes and the 2004 class of Jerel McNeal, Dominic James, Wesley Matthews and Dwight Burke as the best at Marquette since the post-Al era.

Well Mark has it in his top 3 I will put it at the top and here is why...

1990 class was good but it severly lacked athleticism...the only truly athletic player, Brakes, was soon gone.  Key was a wonderful player, and McIlvaine a dominant defender like we may never see again, but much of this classes success was a prodcut of the next year's class which added athleticism and playmaking ability.

2004 class while talented was very small and despite being small couldnt shoot straight.  Unlike Oneill did, the next class did not fill the holes and this group was doomed to what could have been with a sniper and talent in the paint.


chapman

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 11:39:39 AM »
We'll see when they get on the court.  It looks to be a very talented, balanced group.  If the 2008 class we had coming (Nick Williams, Taylor, Otule, Fulce) managed to get nationally ranked by some sources, I would think this class will be in many top 20s.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 01:52:18 PM »
We'll see when they get on the court.  It looks to be a very talented, balanced group.  If the 2008 class we had coming (Nick Williams, Taylor, Otule, Fulce) managed to get nationally ranked by some sources, I would think this class will be in many top 20s.

We also have to see if they all even get to the court.  It's a wonderful class today, it will be even better in September of 2009 assuming they are all there.

I'd rank this class third this decade so far (the 2000's), with the potential to get better (can't judge that until they leave MU). 

2004 class #1 (James, McNeal, Burke, Matthews)
2000 class #2 (Wade, Merritt, Sanders, Blankson)

The 1990 class was terrific as were a couple of others in the early 80's.


THEGYMBAR

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 01:59:20 PM »
KO's first class was better than this one. They three WI kids and IL kid was a good class. Making that class better was we really did not have a great chance at those three prior to Kevin getting hired.

jce

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 02:26:19 PM »
KO's first class was better than this one. They three WI kids and IL kid was a good class. Making that class better was we really did not have a great chance at those three prior to Kevin getting hired.

I don't think that can make the class better...just that O'Neal had to do a better selling job.

MU Chi_IL

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 02:31:33 PM »
I think it says a lot that Buzz's first recruiting class is in the conversation.  I am slowing stepping back from the ledge...

esotericmindguy

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 02:33:43 PM »
We also have to see if they all even get to the court.  It's a wonderful class today, it will be even better in September of 2009 assuming they are all there.

I'd rank this class third this decade so far (the 2000's), with the potential to get better (can't judge that until they leave MU). 

2004 class #1 (James, McNeal, Burke, Matthews)
2000 class #2 (Wade, Merritt, Sanders, Blankson)

The 1990 class was terrific as were a couple of others in the early 80's.


Well, if you have to wait until they get on the court how can you rank the 2004 class first?  They have accomplished very little on the court, unless you consider a 4th place finish in the Big East a great accomplishment.  They are 1-3 in the post season.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 02:35:21 PM by esotericmindguy »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 03:14:15 PM »
Well, if you have to wait until they get on the court how can you rank the 2004 class first?  They have accomplished very little on the court, unless you consider a 4th place finish in the Big East a great accomplishment.  They are 1-3 in the post season.

Three of the four will finish in the top 20 in points, steals, etc.  They will be the first 4 NCAA appearance team in 25+ years.  Three of the four will play pro ball (maybe not in the NBA, but pro ball).  All three teams finishing ranked in the top 25 (hasn't happened in 25+ years at MU).  Etc, etc. 

I believe you judge a team based on non-conference, conference and post-season.  I don't put all my eggs in one basket of the post season because it's a crapshoot.  To suggest these kids have accomplished very little I believe sums it up well as to crazy that logic is.  These kids have accomplished a lot and will continue to do so.


PTM

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 03:38:48 PM »
Three of the four will finish in the top 20 in points, steals, etc.  They will be the first 4 NCAA appearance team in 25+ years.  Three of the four will play pro ball (maybe not in the NBA, but pro ball).  All three teams finishing ranked in the top 25 (hasn't happened in 25+ years at MU).  Etc, etc. 

I believe you judge a team based on non-conference, conference and post-season.  I don't put all my eggs in one basket of the post season because it's a crapshoot.


Agreed again today. Those are some pretty good accomplishments.
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MR.HAYWARD

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 03:45:54 PM »
Chicos says one thing and then says another...I believe you judge a team based on non-conference, conference and post-season.  I don't put all my eggs in one basket of the post season because it's a crapshoot....

If you honestly beleive that then how can you possibly say that 2004 was better?  How many conference titles did the 2004 team win?  How many conference title games did they play in?  Final 4's, Undefeated home slates, out of conference success, etc.  2000 class out shone them in every single manner.  Pure babble

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 04:09:02 PM »
Chicos says one thing and then says another...I believe you judge a team based on non-conference, conference and post-season.  I don't put all my eggs in one basket of the post season because it's a crapshoot....

If you honestly beleive that then how can you possibly say that 2004 was better?  How many conference titles did the 2004 team win?  How many conference title games did they play in?  Final 4's, Undefeated home slates, out of conference success, etc.  2000 class out shone them in every single manner.  Pure babble

Sigh

Look at what you just wrote...if I did value post season more then I would have put 2000 ahead of 2004.  But I didn't...did I?  Nope.  I look at the entire class and the entire tenure.  So I'm following EXACTLY what I said.  DOH.

Blankson only played 2 years.  Wade only 2 years.  Those bring down the ratings for that class IMO

Plus, but not exclusively, one class will go to 4 NCAAs (which is based on your SEASON OF WORK) while the 2000 class went to TWO NCAAs (again, based on your SEASON OF WORK).   What they do once they get to post season I treat separately.

Of course the 2000 class did more in the post season then the 2004 class...5-2 in the NCAAs in 2 appearances.  The 2004 class is 1-3 with one year to go.  But in terms of what the 2004 class did all 4 years, it's stronger then the 2000 class all 4 years in aggregate.  The 2004 class will play 4 years in the Big East.  The 2000 class played none in that high level.  The 2004 class ultimately had 4 very good years, the 2000 class had one unbelievable year and one very good year.

So your comments that the 2000 class outshone them in every way, sorry...I don't buy it at all. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 04:11:49 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

Murffieus

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 04:56:00 PM »
Can't tell the quality or rank of this class until 3-4 years from now----possible academic liabiliites, transfers for perceived greener pastures, underachieve expectations, overachievement of expectations all have yet to
be established.

Therefore can't compare this class to any other class because of the unknowns here vs everything being known from prior classes!

RawdogDX

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 05:10:33 PM »
 isn't there 4 recruiting classes involved everytime we go to a post season? Why would the post season success of the team be the lone yard stick for a recruiting class?  If crean would have picked up a good big man and they go to a final four then the big three are better players then they are now?  How does that make sense?

It seems to me that the best way to judge a class are things that THEY do: Stats they put up and accolades (1st, 2nd team all conf, roy, ect).  If we win a championship this year can I then make an argument that 2005 was better than 2000?  I just don't see how you can compare success when comparing classes when there are 4 classes out there.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 06:02:15 PM »
isn't there 4 recruiting classes involved everytime we go to a post season? Why would the post season success of the team be the lone yard stick for a recruiting class?  If crean would have picked up a good big man and they go to a final four then the big three are better players then they are now?  How does that make sense?

It seems to me that the best way to judge a class are things that THEY do: Stats they put up and accolades (1st, 2nd team all conf, roy, ect).  If we win a championship this year can I then make an argument that 2005 was better than 2000?  I just don't see how you can compare success when comparing classes when there are 4 classes out there.

Absolutely and excellent point, which is why simply putting all the eggs in the post season basket is completely silly.

detroitwarrior

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 06:05:20 PM »
Agreed.
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bilsu

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008, 06:28:55 PM »
It is very difficult to compare classes for various reasons. O'Neals first class had a losing record until they got he Miller the next year. I think that alone makes McNeal, James, Matthews and Burke a better class than Key, McIlvanie and Logterman. Add in the competition factor of the Big East vs Great Midwest and I think this further strengthens the three amigos claim to a better class. How do you rate Wade's class? Is down graded because Wade only played two years and blankson transferred out. In Wade's two years ( sophomore and junior years) we won 26 and 27 games. The three amigos won 24 and 25 games in their sophomore and junior years aginst tougher competition. i do not think you can say how good a class is until it is done playing.

detroitwarrior

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008, 06:42:55 PM »
Irrespective of the coach, I think everyone can agree that this is a very nice recruiting class and may be ranked in the top 20 nationally .  It is amazing to me that it was put together so well in such a short time given the circumstances. Based on the statements of some of the kids, it does seem that they all think highly of the current coach and his staff and the university and they all seem to have given verbals shortly after spending time with the coaching staff, our current team and at the university. This bodes well for the future since it seems that the pitch given to recruits may be come and play at a great university rather than "I coached Dwayne Wade".
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MR.HAYWARD

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2008, 06:50:14 PM »
do yu think that statemnt is why we except for the rarity only signed guys 6'5 and less?

1 player 6'10 or taller in the top 100 in 9 years!!!  dreadful

Pakuni

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2008, 07:01:14 PM »
I don't see how there's much debate on this one. The 2000 class is the best, by a pretty decent margin.
The simple fact it included the best player to ever wear a MU uniform AND two starters on the only Final Four team in the post-Al era should be enough. But wait ... there's more. Odartey Blankson was a fantastic player who, unfortunately, left too soon. Scott Merritt was a three-year starter whose primary fault was that he didn't live up to (perhaps too) lofty expectations. Sanders was a solid role player easily comparable to, say, Dwight Burke or Charles Brakes.
I suppose if one wants to do mental backflips and argue that the strength of a class should be determined by cumulative production rather which had the best players, one could try to make a case for another class. But in terms of sheer talent, 2000 was the best.

Pardner

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2008, 07:06:24 PM »
More so to some of these points, this may potentially be the best back to back classes in 25+ years--especially if the JUCO's/transfers work out.  TC had his best team he had the 2000 class and then added Diener and Novak in subsequent years--throwing in RJax.  Al was the master of stringing together great classes with his philosophy of getting one blue chipper per year.  Buzz and staff are now free to go full out for 2010 and still be in play with Wilson if someone doesn't work out academically.   Back to back to back top classes will get us to a championship level.

I am very impressed how well thought out the recruiting strategy was and how it played out.  Buzz filled out gaps with some JUCO's and transfers to avoid the drop-off in experience and talent after next season.  He went taller and longer which fits his style of play.  He also protected the playing time for the current guys who stayed.  He has a couple of projects at the 5, but aren't they all, I guess.  

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2008, 07:33:46 PM »
I don't see how there's much debate on this one. The 2000 class is the best, by a pretty decent margin.
The simple fact it included the best player to ever wear a MU uniform AND two starters on the only Final Four team in the post-Al era should be enough. But wait ... there's more. Odartey Blankson was a fantastic player who, unfortunately, left too soon. Scott Merritt was a three-year starter whose primary fault was that he didn't live up to (perhaps too) lofty expectations. Sanders was a solid role player easily comparable to, say, Dwight Burke or Charles Brakes.
I suppose if one wants to do mental backflips and argue that the strength of a class should be determined by cumulative production rather which had the best players, one could try to make a case for another class. But in terms of sheer talent, 2000 was the best.


In terms of sheer talent, I'd agree with you...the 2000 class.  Wade was so much better than any player we've had at MU in decades plus two other very good players with him and Sanders was certainly a player to hold his own. 

In terms of 4 year production, I'd go with DJ class.

I'll wait to judge Buzz's first class as best in 25 years for at least another 3 years if not 4 or 5.   ;)

Henry Sugar

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2008, 07:53:25 PM »
I think it says a lot that Buzz's first recruiting class is in the conversation. I am slowing stepping back from the ledge...

This is probably the most salient point from the conversation... totally agree
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Pardner

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2008, 07:56:04 PM »

I'll wait to judge Buzz's first class as best in 25 years for at least another 3 years if not 4 or 5.   ;


Which class do you consider Buzz's first class?  Is it McMorrow, Butler, Fulce, Otule?  Or, the '09 class?  I think you have to give Buzz the '08 signees.  In three months, Buzz has locked up two classes.  In six, we may have three years signed up.

bilsu

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2008, 08:59:00 PM »
It has occurred to me that the class of McMorrow, Otule, Fulce and Butler might be better than the class of Buycks, Cadougan, Williams and Maymon. First of all the 2008 class is on campus. Second Williams had a broken ankle and Cadougan had a broken foot. There is a concern about Maymon qualifying. Buycks will only have two years. The 2008 class might be all practice players or could develope into some really good players as there is both size and athleticism. On paper 2009 is better, but we may find in the end that 2008 is the better class.

The Lens

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Re: Best class in 25 years!!
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2008, 09:17:30 PM »
Isn't the premise of this exercise to decide the best class upon entering / completion of recruiting season?  Seems to me, these guys might win that arguement.

The fact that they're in the discussion is an amazing testament to Buzz's potential.
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