'25-26 NBA Thread

[BM1090]

My counterpoint:

Harden is the reason we are dealing with absurd flopping in the NBA.  He was rewarded with his garbage when he played for Houston, and it has led to a plethora of players acting like they are  charged by rhinos on zero contact plays.     I'm always pleased when he craps the bed in the playoffs. 

That's not really a counter point, but I do agree

[MuggsyB]

That's not really a counter point, but I do agree

Fair enough.  I've always loathed everything about Harden.  And I had to deal with ignorant people telling me he was better than Dwyane.  It may be a good thing that some of the nonsense we see, from OKC, could be addressed over the summer.  I don't know why they seemingly got rid of techs for flops.  This is a league problem.  Eliminating it would be very easy if they enforced the flop rule.  Coaches should be allowed unlimited flop challenges.  Once that happens, and they get through 3 hour games in November, you will see flopping eliminated. My penalty for a no-contact flop would be an immediate dismissal from the game.  Minor contact flops would be an F-1.  If you reach 10 flops?  10 game suspension.  Problem solved. 

[wadesworld]

Never forget the 76ers waived Julian Champagnie so that Mac McClung could represent them in the Dunk Contest.

[MuggsyB]

Wemby woke up tonight offensively.

[MuggsyB]

Never forget the 76ers waived Julian Champagnie so that Mac McClung could represent them in the Dunk Contest.

They also traded Jared McCain.  They have no bench btw. 

[Uncle Rico]

They also traded Jared McCain.  They have no bench btw. 

I saw one on tv

[MuggsyB]

Cade with three absolutely brutal turnovers under 3 mins.  Yikes.

[The Sultan]

Harden hit some shots today. Fun game to watch.

[MuggsyB]

Harden hit some shots today. Fun game to watch.

He did for sure.  But Cade's turnovers were the reason Detroit lost.  The guy is obviously an absolute superstar, but you cannot turn the ball over the way he has.  These are mickey-mouse kick aways at critical times.  And totally ridiculous for a player of his caliber.  He's averaging about 6 per game and had 8 today, 3 under 3 mins.  JWags is 100% correct, can't happen. 

[MuggsyB]

I also cannot see NY losing to either Detroit or Clev. 

[WarriorFan]

You may not like it, but he will absolutely be in the HOF.

. He should go in as a special inductee for institutionalizing cheating in the modern game.  First with the 5-7 step drives to the lane, then the 5-6 step "step backs", then the forearm slug to the abdomen of his defender at the top of the key, and all the various push-offs.  Could never stand him.  Unfortunately SGA has taken the entire harden bag of tricks and added more flopping thereby making the game completely unwatchable when he's involved.  I never liked KD either... but at least he plays pure basketball... and is proof that there are modern players who maintain the integrity of the game.

[The Sultan]

. He should go in as a special inductee for institutionalizing cheating in the modern game.  First with the 5-7 step drives to the lane, then the 5-6 step "step backs", then the forearm slug to the abdomen of his defender at the top of the key, and all the various push-offs.  Could never stand him.  Unfortunately SGA has taken the entire harden bag of tricks and added more flopping thereby making the game completely unwatchable when he's involved.  I never liked KD either... but at least he plays pure basketball... and is proof that there are modern players who maintain the integrity of the game.

OK bud. Time for your nap.

[MuggsyB]

OK bud. Time for your nap.

A lot of people share WarriorFan's sentiments.  No reason to attack him. 

[The Sultan]

Anyone who claims that Harden "institutionalized cheating," or that he is even doing anything substantially different that hasn't been going on for decades, needs a nap.

[MuggsyB]

Everyone needs a nap on occasion, except Koalas.  You're being way too harsh.  Harden has gotten away with a lot of b-ass over his career. 

[JWags85]

Counterpoint, in the 2018 WCF he averaged 29/6/6 and averaged 32/7/7 in games 6 and 7 against the Steph and KD warriors. He showed up that series and the role players let him down. He was similarly good in the 2015 WCF against the Warriors.

He had some years that he was a winning player. He just hasn't been in a long time. Obviously his defense has always been bad, but his offense was so good that it didn't matter for 3-4 years there.

Ive never been a Harden fan, but I think the last 5-6 years post-Houston, through a combination of his play, results, and diva behavior, have kind of made people forget his peak.  His game has aged horribly but he was an incredible player from 2014-2020.  And he's never been a lock down defender but he was actually a very underrated help/team defender in that time.  His DRtg was like 103-104 in that time, which is completely legit.  And the ironic thing about how sheiesty his game became was that much of it at the beginning was INCREDIBLY skillful and practiced footwork and hand movement with stepbacks and rip throughs that basically tested the limits of what was allowed.  Its easy to pretend his game was just flailing or traveling, but he was crafty in a way that very few had the technical ability and skill to do.

And again, I'm not a Harden fan by any means, but any suggestion of non-HOF worthiness is absurd.  11 time All Star, 6 1st Team All NBA, an MVP, 4 other top 3 MVP finishes (3 were 2nd place, oh and another 4 top 10 finishes), and a 6MOY win.  Will also finish top 10 in scoring with over 30K points, lets be real here.  Disliking his game is totally fine.  Calling out the massive discrepency in his regular season performance versus playoff performance, also legit.  Calling him overrated or some derivative of "not that good" is just overly emotional silliness.

[MuggsyB]

Ive never been a Harden fan, but I think the last 5-6 years post-Houston, through a combination of his play, results, and diva behavior, have kind of made people forget his peak.  His game has aged horribly but he was an incredible player from 2014-2020.  And he's never been a lock down defender but he was actually a very underrated help/team defender in that time.  His DRtg was like 103-104 in that time, which is completely legit.  And the ironic thing about how sheiesty his game became was that much of it at the beginning was INCREDIBLY skillful and practiced footwork and hand movement with stepbacks and rip throughs that basically tested the limits of what was allowed.  Its easy to pretend his game was just flailing or traveling, but he was crafty in a way that very few had the technical ability and skill to do.

And again, I'm not a Harden fan by any means, but any suggestion of non-HOF worthiness is absurd.  11 time All Star, 6 1st Team All NBA, an MVP, 4 other top 3 MVP finishes (3 were 2nd place, oh and another 4 top 10 finishes), and a 6MOY win.  Will also finish top 10 in scoring with over 30K points, lets be real here.  Disliking his game is totally fine.  Calling out the massive discrepency in his regular season performance versus playoff performance, also legit.  Calling him overrated or some derivative of "not that good" is just overly emotional silliness.

I think Wf was clearly being hyperbolic.  He's obviously a Hall of Famer, but you can't discount the criticisms.  And they go beyond his issues in the playoffs.  He has been a notorious flopper and horizontally travels constantly.  Both of which have been horrible for the game as WarriorFan mentioned.   I tend to disagree with your analysis of his antics, despite his crazy skill level.  This isn't Kabuki theater. 

[tower912]

Cade with three absolutely brutal turnovers under 3 mins.  Yikes.

He had a triple double.  Two turnovers shy of a quadruple double.

[GB Warrior]

I think Harden helped institutionalized fundamentally aesthetically unpleasant basketball. He wasn't alone by any stretch, and the league has been working to undo all of it (see the no-call on his clutch 3 yesterday).

That said, he was nails yesterday, and that was the most I've enjoyed watching him in about 7 or 8 years

[MuggsyB]

He had a triple double.  Two turnovers shy of a quadruple double.

He really needs to figure out these turnover issues.  They've been live-ball turns at critical junctures in games.  Granted his usage is crazy high, but these are without question correctable mistakes imo.  People seem to discount the importance of valuing tbe ball.  As great as Cade was yesterday, and has been throughout the playoffs, you can't simply gloss over the turnovers he keeps committing.  The three he had yesterday, under 3 mins, were absolutely beyond belief.  It totally nullified his scoring numbers in the 4Q. 

[MuggsyB]

I think Harden helped institutionalized fundamentally aesthetically unpleasant basketball. He wasn't alone by any stretch, and the league has been working to undo all of it (see the no-call on his clutch 3 yesterday).

That said, he was nails yesterday, and that was the most I've enjoyed watching him in about 7 or 8 years

You mean you don't care for:

Dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, fast forward 19 secs, hoops?

[MU82]

C'mon ... 18 ruined basketball. Ask every fan, media member, expert observer, player and coach anywhere on the planet and they'll agree. But I guess Harden could be a distant second.

[tower912]

He really needs to figure out these turnover issues.  They've been live-ball turns at critical junctures in games.  Granted his usage is crazy high, but these are without question correctable mistakes imo.  People seem to discount the importance of valuing tbe ball.  As great as Cade was yesterday, and has been throughout the playoffs, you can't simply gloss over the turnovers he keeps committing.  The three he had yesterday, under 3 mins, were absolutely beyond belief.  It totally nullified his scoring numbers in the 4Q. 

Sure you can.  They are going to go as far as he takes them.  Sometimes, like in his first ever second round road playoff game, there are going to be more turnovers than ideal.  Learning experience.  Next.

[Jockey]

. He should go in as a special inductee for institutionalizing cheating in the modern game.  First with the 5-7 step drives to the lane, then the 5-6 step "step backs", then the forearm slug to the abdomen of his defender at the top of the key, and all the various push-offs.  Could never stand him.  Unfortunately SGA has taken the entire harden bag of tricks and added more flopping thereby making the game completely unwatchable when he's involved.  I never liked KD either... but at least he plays pure basketball... and is proof that there are modern players who maintain the integrity of the game.

How do you know this when you don't watch any games?

[JWags85]

I think Harden helped institutionalized fundamentally aesthetically unpleasant basketball. He wasn't alone by any stretch, and the league has been working to undo all of it (see the no-call on his clutch 3 yesterday).

That said, he was nails yesterday, and that was the most I've enjoyed watching him in about 7 or 8 years

Agreed.  The funniest and yet most clever comparison of Harden 7-8 years ago came from my buddy in Indonesia. He's a HUGE NBA fan but also a massive F1 fan.  He said he always thought Harden was like an F1 technical director.  Constantly tweaking and probing at the boundaries of what was allowed or "legal" as F1 constantly shifted and adjusted their rules in an effort to gain an advantage.  Critics would call it unsporting or cheating but it was within the rules or would be adjusted if it crossed boundaries.  Not to mention, in order to do it, it required an high level of expertise, skill, and technical ability.

I don't disagree it's been an overall detriment to the game, and am glad to see the NBA start to pull back on it (not unlike what happens in F1 as well).

You mean you don't care for:

Dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, fast forward 19 secs, hoops?

That's also a silly take cause Harden in his prime THRIVED in transition, averaged tons of assists, and was leading very high scoring teams.  He was gimmicky and crafty but he wasn't a ball stopper, not unlike SGA