Syria = Impending S-Show

[Shaka Shart]

While I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

You are right to point out, "How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?".

You don't, because how do you as a civilian accept protection from a military force seeded with people indiscriminately killing your community?

The IDF won't stop having quick trigger fingers due to above mentioned seeding in the population; and the Palestinians have no reason to believe that compliance would make anything better. There is scant little evidence from the past and Israeli Gov that "behaving" would decrease the dehumanizing violence and starvation.

[Shaka Shart]

I mean, do you think the local population was favorable to the IDF even in November of 2023?

I'm not trying to say some nonsense like "Gazans are all Hamas", but I pretty sure there is a huge chasm between "We don't feel Hamas is the best for Gaza/Palestinian future" and "We will help Israel to remove Hamas".  I don't think condemnation for Hamas' actions on 10/7 ever got above 50% locally.

I seem to remember pretty much universal condemnation for 10/7, and it being still maintained that murdering hundreds of civilians is still bad. I think you might be conflating the 50% of the "why it was not a surprising something like this was attempted" with the "what actually happened is bad".

[JWags85]

You are right to point out, "How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?".

You don't, because how do you as a civilian accept protection from a military force seeded with people indiscriminately killing your community?

The IDF won't stop having quick trigger fingers due to above mentioned seeding in the population; and the Palestinians have no reason to believe that compliance would make anything better. There is scant little evidence from the past and Israeli Gov that "behaving" would decrease the dehumanizing violence and starvation.

Yea, don't disagree with much here, which is why its such a convoluted problem beyond "Gazan civilians are being disproportionately harmed and it should stop".  Outside of the people who think Hamas was justified or don't believe Israel should exist moving forward, not many have considered what happens after that.  Cause I don't see how a strategy like was executed in Iraq would have worked before, much less moving forward.

I seem to remember pretty much universal condemnation for 10/7, and it being still maintained that murdering hundreds of civilians is still bad. I think you might be conflating the 50% of the "why it was not a surprising something like this was attempted" with the "what actually happened is bad".

Globally sure, maybe right away, but not in the polls coming out of Gaza from what I recall or looked up earlier today.  And I think there was no universal condemnation as soon as Israel made their first strike backs.  It took less than a week of retaliation for sentiment already to build up against Israel.  I mean, the last week Ive seen a bunch of references claiming how Hamas was offering a truce on 10/8-10/9 and how disgusting it was that Israel refused that.  Aka people feel it was bad but if Hamas said "sorry" and dictated a few concessions, Israel should have let it go .  Anything more than that was unfair.

[Pakuni]

It's almost as if it was never about the hostages.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told ministers in the past day that he will seek cabinet backing for a plan to fully occupy the Gaza Strip, despite objections from within the IDF, Hebrew media reports.
Several ministers reportedly said Netanyahu used the term "occupation of the Strip" in private conversations describing his vision for the expansion of military operations in Gaza — a notable shift in tone as the government prepares to discuss the future of the Gaza campaign.
A senior official close to the premier is quoted in Ynet as saying, "The die is cast — we are going for a full occupation of the Gaza Strip."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-set-to-push-for-major-expansion-of-gaza-offensive-reports-say/

[Uncle Rico]

This is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

What's happening in Syria?

[JWags85]

It's almost as if it was never about the hostages.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told ministers in the past day that he will seek cabinet backing for a plan to fully occupy the Gaza Strip, despite objections from within the IDF, Hebrew media reports.
Several ministers reportedly said Netanyahu used the term "occupation of the Strip" in private conversations describing his vision for the expansion of military operations in Gaza — a notable shift in tone as the government prepares to discuss the future of the Gaza campaign.
A senior official close to the premier is quoted in Ynet as saying, "The die is cast — we are going for a full occupation of the Gaza Strip."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-set-to-push-for-major-expansion-of-gaza-offensive-reports-say/

Question, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse?  Or that it was the push internally after 10/7 deciding that the 2005 withdrawal experiment and subsequent Hamas takeover meant from that plan with Gaza didn't work?

[Pakuni]

Question, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse?  Or that it was the push internally after 10/7 deciding that the 2005 withdrawal experiment and subsequent Hamas takeover meant from that plan with Gaza didn't work?

I'm not sure what you mean by all along - since 1996? 2009? 2022?

I do believe that Israel's post-10/7 response very quickly became "never let a good crisis go to waste" and the intention since early on has been to displace the vast majority of the Palestinian population and settle Gaza as they have the West Bank, but on steroids.
Some of the more hardline elements in Israel were saying this as far back as 2023. Clearly there was an element of getting hostages back and weakening Hamas from the onset, but the ultimate goal (as far as I see it) has long been full occupation and eventual settlement.

Edit: Let's remember, "Options for a policy regarding Gaza's civilian population" was drafted six days after Oct. 7.

[JWags85]

I'm not sure what you mean by all along - since 1996? 2009? 2022?

I do believe that Israel's post-10/7 response very quickly became "never let a good crisis go to waste" and the intention since early on has been to displace the vast majority of the Palestinian population and settle Gaza as they have the West Bank, but on steroids.
Some of the more hardline elements in Israel were saying this as far back as 2023. Clearly there was an element of getting hostages back and weakening Hamas from the onset, but the ultimate goal (as far as I see it) has long been full occupation and eventual settlement.

Edit: Let's remember, Options for a policy regarding Gaza's civilian population" was drafted six days after Oct. 7.

2022 basically. To a lesser extent from 2009, but more within the current administration since his re-election in 2022.

I think post-10/7 there was never any intention of further attempting to co-exist with Hamas, rightly or wrongly.  But as mentioned in previous posts, there was no leadership structure outside of Hamas to hand over to or champion, so it was never gonna be easy in the most scenarios from Israel.  But clearly Likud government leadership DGAF and blasted ahead wantonly

[Pakuni]

2022 basically. To a lesser extent from 2009, but more within the current administration since his re-election in 2022.

I think post-10/7 there was never any intention of further attempting to co-exist with Hamas, rightly or wrongly.  But as mentioned in previous posts, there was no leadership structure outside of Hamas to hand over to or champion, so it was never gonna be easy in the most scenarios from Israel.  But clearly Likud government leadership DGAF and blasted ahead wantonly

That's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

[Shaka Shart]

That's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

Some weirdos might call it manifest destiny

[JWags85]

That's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

It's not a justification, it's just a statement of fact.

But did any of Germany, Italy, or Japan refuse to surrender and be ?  Hamas refuses to surrender and be demilitarized.  Germany/Italy/Japan weren't making large demands despite being in a defeated inferior position. Nothing Hamas has said has even hinted at a disbanding and laying down of weapons.  More "give us back all our prisoners for your hostages and leave us alone".

Again, it's not justifying anything Israel is doing but it's not analogous.  Without Hamas surrendering/being disbanded, how does an Israel retreat from Gaza result in anything other than Hamas reloading with an even stronger martyrdom message?

In a perfect world without their undue aggression, Israel would still be in a difficult position with the void left in a post-Hamas Gaza.  I have no clue what they could do now beyond allowing aid as I mentioned above

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Question, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse? 

He merely seized the opportunity. If not 10/7, it would have been some other pretext. Bibi is a dictator that will do everything and anything to stay in power as the alternative is dying in jail.

Unfortuantely, though 99.9% of America refuses to face the truth, we are in the Exact. Same. Position.

[Pakuni]

It's not a justification, it's just a statement of fact.

But did any of Germany, Italy, or Japan refuse to surrender and be ?  Hamas refuses to surrender and be demilitarized.  Germany/Italy/Japan weren't making large demands despite being in a defeated inferior position. Nothing Hamas has said has even hinted at a disbanding and laying down of weapons.  More "give us back all our prisoners for your hostages and leave us alone".

Again, it's not justifying anything Israel is doing but it's not analogous.  Without Hamas surrendering/being disbanded, how does an Israel retreat from Gaza result in anything other than Hamas reloading with an even stronger martyrdom message?

In a perfect world without their undue aggression, Israel would still be in a difficult position with the void left in a post-Hamas Gaza.  I have no clue what they could do now beyond allowing aid as I mentioned above

I think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

The reality is that Hamas doesn't exist because a bunch of thriving young men with strong economic prospects in their safe communities have nothing better to do than sacrifice their lives in the fight against Israel. Hamas exists because the life of the average young man in Gaza is sh*t and Hamas can point to Israel - justifiably, to at least some extent - as the reason for that.
Give Gaza an economy, health and security, and Hamas is severely weakened. You may not completely be rid of them, and you wont be rid of anti-Israeli sentiment, but you might be able to provide both sides with more security. Which ought to be the goal, right?

It's fraught with peril, to be sure, but the alternative is much, much worse.

[MuggsyB]

I think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

The reality is that Hamas doesn't exist because a bunch of thriving young men with strong economic prospects in their safe communities have nothing better to do than sacrifice their lives in the fight against Israel. Hamas exists because the life of the average young man in Gaza is sh*t and Hamas can point to Israel - justifiably, to at least some extent - as the reason for that.
Give Gaza an economy, health and security, and Hamas is severely weakened. You may not completely be rid of them, and you wont be rid of anti-Israeli sentiment, but you might be able to provide both sides with more security. Which ought to be the goal, right?

It's fraught with peril, to be sure, but the alternative is much, much worse.

Their lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

[Uncle Rico]

Their lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

I wonder how many Americans support expelling Jews and Muslims?  I bet like 35%

[MuggsyB]

I wonder how many Americans support expelling Jews and Muslims?  I bet like 35%

That could be, I dunno.

[Uncle Rico]

That could be, I dunno.

The future

[tower912]

The future

Repeating the past.

[MuggsyB]

The future

We've done an unusually poor job of dealing with evil ideologies and scumbags. I would have dealt with Putin and Iranian leadership/their proxies, much differently.  And from day 1.  Preventing Oct 7th was Netanyahu 's biggest failure. As I've said many times, hard power is essential with regard to evil pieces of garbage.  Unfortunately, no one seems to grasp that appeasement is a euphemism for allowing a s-show.  I would have usurped every drop of oil, in Russia and Iran,  years and years and years and years ago.

[Uncle Rico]

We've done an unusually poor job of dealing with evil ideologies and scumbags. I would have dealt with Putin and Iranian leadership/their proxies, much differently.  And fron day 1.  Preventing Oct 7th was Netanyahu 's biggest failure. As I've said many times, hard power is essential with regard to evil pieces of garbage.  Unfortunately, no one seems to grasp that Appeasement is a euphemism for allowing a s-show.  I would have usurped every drop of oil, in Russia and Iran,  years and years and years and years ago.

I would have nuked the entire Middle East years ago and banned religion but unfortunately, no one listened to me, either

[MuggsyB]

I would have nuked the entire Middle East years ago and banned religion but unfortunately, no one listened to me, either

There are tenets within Islam that subjugate their own people and want to restore the Caliphate.  There are many secular and non-religious Muslims that are great people.  The problem is the Jihadists and Islamists, which account for a sizeable minority, are evil and extremely problematic.  We can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

[Uncle Rico]

There are tenets within Islam that subjugate their own people and want to restore the Caliphate.  There are many secular and non-religious Muslims that are great people.  The problem is the Jihadists and Islamists, which account for a sizeable minority, are evil and extremely problematic.  We can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

Me, too.  Nuke them and then ban religion.  Zip, boom, bang, problems solved

[Pakuni]

Their lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

I wonder what the average Gazan thought of Hamas before the Israelis started dropping bombs on their heads.
Oh ...

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I wonder what the average Gazan thought of Hamas before the Israelis started dropping bombs on their heads.
Oh ...

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas

No fair bringing facts to a Muggsy conversation.

This information will change his min--ha, ha, who am I kidding?

[The Sultan]

The fact that Muggs brings up the "Palestinians elected Hamas" line is a testament to his hopelessness.

That election was in 2006. They were elected by less than a majority.

Furthermore, as of 2023, the median age in Gaza was just under 20 years old. That means that a vast majority of current Gazans not didn't vote for Hamas, they weren't of voting age OR not even alive at that point.

It's just another illogical line used to justify their suffering - completely immoral.