Syria = Impending S-Show

[The Sultan]

I don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Again this all irrelevant to what is being discussed. No one is supporting terrorists here.

[MuggsyB]

All religion sucks

That's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

[MuggsyB]

Again this all irrelevant to what is being discussed. No one is supporting terrorists here.

You're  indirectly supporting an ideology.  What exactly is your solution once this ends?  A Palestinian State?  In Gaza or within Israel? 

[Uncle Rico]

That's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

No, they all suck

[The Sultan]

You're  indirectly supporting an ideology.  What exactly is your solution once this ends?  A Palestinian State?  In Gaza or within Israel? 

I am not indirectly supporting anything. That's simplistic and reductive and let's people excuse bad behavior.

And I have no idea what the permanent solution is - and I don't think that's the point of the discussion anyway.

[MuggsyB]

I am not indirectly supporting anything. That's simplistic and reductive and let's people excuse bad behavior.

And I have no idea what the permanent solution is - and I don't think that's the point of the discussion anyway.

Shocker.  You have no solutions and refuse to deal with the fact that Palestinian leadership has zero interest in peace and never have.

[The Sultan]

Shocker.  You have no solutions and refuse to deal with the fact that Palestinian leadership has zero interest in peace and never have.

Lol. You haven't answered a single question in this topic. And now you're deflecting again. Very weak.

[MuggsyB]

Lol. You haven't answered a single question in this topic. And now you're deflecting again. Very weak.

The opposite is the truth.  No one has answered my questions. 

[The Sultan]

The opposite is the truth.  No one has answered my questions. 

Because your questions aren't on topic and merely deflections.

[forgetful]

Read it and then provide your rebuttal.

What is happening is Hamas killed over 1200 civilians and took hundreds hostage.  They can end things at any time by freeing the hostages that remain.  They have no moral high ground.

October 7th was terrible, but your statement is inaccurate.

736 civilians were killed, 79 foreign nationals, and 379 members of the Israeli Security Forces.

It was an atrocity that should never have happened.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Thinking about responding to a Muggsy comment on this thread?

[Jockey]

Thinking about responding to a Muggsy comment on this thread?

I wish more people here felt like this.

[Scoop Snoop]

Muggsy is Scoop's version of Hans Christian Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

All religion sucks

All but mine. Please send me lots of money and I'll assure you eternal life.

[Uncle Rico]

All but mine. Please send me lots of money and I'll assure you eternal life.

Religion is the world's oldest grift

[MU82]

From NYT columnist David French:

I think it's fair to describe me as a Christian Zionist. I believe in the necessity of the Jewish people to have their own safe, secure homeland. And while I have never thought Israel was perfect (far from it), I have seen the antisemitism and genocidal intent animating its enemies in the Middle East, including Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

I can see the extraordinary antisemitism and bias in the larger international community. When a United Nations that includes North Korea, Syria, Russia and China condemns Israel more than any other nation in the world (by far), you know that the Jewish state is being singled out.

I'm also a veteran of the Iraq war who served as judge advocate for an armored cavalry regiment during the surge in Iraq in 2007 and 2008. Before I became a journalist, I was part of a legal team that defended Israel from war crime accusations after Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza war of 2008 and 2009.

I know that Israel had the right under international law to destroy Hamas's military and to remove Hamas from power after the massacre in southern Israel on Oct. 7. In other words, Israel had the right to respond to a terrorist force like Hamas the way the United States and its allies responded to a terrorist force like ISIS after ISIS launched its terrorist campaign across the Middle East and across Europe.

So, yes, I consider myself a friend of Israel. But now its friends need to stage an intervention. The Israeli government has gone too far. It has engineered a staggering humanitarian crisis, and that crisis is both a moral atrocity and a long-term threat to Israel itself.

Civilian casualties were inevitable when Israel responded to Hamas, but the suffering of Palestinian civilians is far beyond the bounds of military necessity. The people of Gaza, already grieving the loss of thousands of children, now face a famine — and children once again will bear the brunt of the pain.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/03/opinion/israel-famine-hamas-netanyahu-trump.html

[The Sultan]

Fantastic article. Written by a former JAG officer and writer for the National Review as well.

"The dominant power in Gaza is Israel, not Hamas, and Israel, not Hamas, is the only entity with both the power to control aid distribution and the ability to obtain and distribute aid in the Gaza Strip. There is no way for Gazans to feed themselves. They are utterly dependent on Israel, and Israel removed the United Nations from the aid distribution network without replacing it with an effective alternative.

...

Hamas should lay down its arms. It should release every hostage. But Hamas's war crimes — including its murders, its hostage taking and its concealment among civilians and civilian buildings — do not relieve Israel of its own moral and legal obligations."

[Shaka Shart]

When you have lost someone like David French, you might be murdering too many women & children.

[JWags85]

Fantastic article. Written by a former JAG officer and writer for the National Review as well.

"The dominant power in Gaza is Israel, not Hamas, and Israel, not Hamas, is the only entity with both the power to control aid distribution and the ability to obtain and distribute aid in the Gaza Strip. There is no way for Gazans to feed themselves. They are utterly dependent on Israel, and Israel removed the United Nations from the aid distribution network without replacing it with an effective alternative.

...

Hamas should lay down its arms. It should release every hostage. But Hamas's war crimes — including its murders, its hostage taking and its concealment among civilians and civilian buildings — do not relieve Israel of its own moral and legal obligations."

Its a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

You can argue Israel is screwed in this situation either way and all that will happen in the future is more undue suffering for civilians caught in the middle and I don't really think that is all together untrue.   But you have to at least see how that is not very palatable for a pro-Israel contingent.

I said earlier in this thread, the biggest and most foolish mistake Israel has made in all of this is playing into Hamas' narrative and PR angle so that there is no longer any push or call for Hamas to give in, outside of voices who are immediately dismissed as genocidal Zionists.  Not talking about the pro-Hamas idiots who think 10/7 was a glorious resistance and think they are still winning.  But anyone to the right of that has folded anything related to Hamas into the horrible plight of Palestinian civilians so that anything punitive towards Hamas or potentially damaging to them moving forward is completely off the table so long as Palestinians are harmed in the process.

[Scoop Snoop]

Thanks for posting 82. It is great to read a rationally written article to counter some of the wackier posts in this thread.

[The Sultan]

Its a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

From the article:

"There has always been a better way to defeat Hamas, and no one knows this better than veterans of the Iraq war. We've watched Israel make the same mistakes we made early in the war, when we repeatedly attacked and destroyed terrorist cells but the terrorists always came back.

We played a deadly and destructive version of Whac-a-Mole, reducing neighborhoods and streets to ruin, only to bomb the rubble weeks and months later when Al Qaeda returned. The only way to stop the cycle was to seize ground, hold it and protect and secure the civilian population until we could hand control over to local authorities.

That approach has a double virtue. It's not just kinder to civilians; it's far more effective militarily. I'm not just saying this. Gen. David Petraeus, the commander of American forces in Iraq during the surge — when we turned the tide of the Iraq war in part by protecting the Iraqi population — has made this argument over and over and over again since Oct. 7."

[JWags85]

We played a deadly and destructive version of Whac-a-Mole, reducing neighborhoods and streets to ruin, only to bomb the rubble weeks and months later when Al Qaeda returned. The only way to stop the cycle was to seize ground, hold it and protect and secure the civilian population until we could hand control over to local authorities.

While I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

[The Sultan]

While I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

I think the local population would be more favorable to the IDF if they were doing something to help feed them. But maybe the time for that was months ago.

[JWags85]

I think the local population would be more favorable to the IDF if they were doing something to help feed them. But maybe the time for that was months ago.

I mean, do you think the local population was favorable to the IDF even in November of 2023?

I'm not trying to say some nonsense like "Gazans are all Hamas", but I pretty sure there is a huge chasm between "We don't feel Hamas is the best for Gaza/Palestinian future" and "We will help Israel to remove Hamas".  I don't think condemnation for Hamas' actions on 10/7 ever got above 50% locally.

[MU82]

Thanks for posting 82. It is great to read a rationally written article to counter some of the wackier posts in this thread.

Thanks. Except for the "Christian Zionist" thing, I mostly share French's take on this situation.

He did a great job of articulating it in that column. I'm really not sure how any rational, objective person who actually cares about human life could disagree with it.