Syria = Impending S-Show

[Scoop Snoop]

We can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

Once again, unilaterally declaring what reality is. No discussion needed. 

Your repeated "la la land" crap is a classic example of projection. It is where you live in your very own version of reality.

[MUBurrow]

I think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

For my money this is the whole rub.  In a vaccuum, I would completely support Israel if they refuse to be Charlie Brown kicking the football here.  There are a lot of reasons to argue that the solution you outline is overly optimistic.  It requires international support (and enforcement against extremist elements) to stay strong, consistent, and continuous.  Gazans would need to embrace a moderate form of government with Western-style representative elements that has proven elusive elsewhere in the region.  In some sense, Israel puts their Gazan-border security in the hands of the the international coalition, and I can't blame them for being suspicious of that.  You can go back to 1945 or just look at how they fare at the UN now to see why that would be unpopular.

But Israel also haven't been good faith actors.  Netanyahu is at least partially responsible for Hamas's strength to begin with, becuase they undermined the rationality of the two state solution he opposed.  The settlements in the West Bank have been atrocious.  I think I'm in Wags's camp of being generally more pro-Israel than others criticizing them here, but their recent track record under Netanyahu essentially precludes a sensible solution so long as he is in power.

[JWags85]

For my money this is the whole rub.  In a vaccuum, I would completely support Israel if they refuse to be Charlie Brown kicking the football here.  There are a lot of reasons to argue that the solution you outline is overly optimistic.  It requires international support (and enforcement against extremist elements) to stay strong, consistent, and continuous.  Gazans would need to embrace a moderate form of government with Western-style representative elements that has proven elusive elsewhere in the region.  In some sense, Israel puts their Gazan-border security in the hands of the the international coalition, and I can't blame them for being suspicious of that.  You can go back to 1945 or just look at how they fare at the UN now to see why that would be unpopular.

But Israel also haven't been good faith actors.  Netanyahu is at least partially responsible for Hamas's strength to begin with, becuase they undermined the rationality of the two state solution he opposed.  The settlements in the West Bank have been atrocious.  I think I'm in Wags's camp of being generally more pro-Israel than others criticizing them here, but their recent track record under Netanyahu essentially precludes a sensible solution so long as he is in power.

Good post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).  And they've gotten this conflict to a point that we've highlighted in previous posts that there is really no easily pragmatic solution for Israel, even if Bibi and Likud were removed from office completely by tomorrow.

The irony is the last year, Netanyahu's foreign policy aggression has been pretty successful and a net positive for Israel and the region.  Crippled Hezbollah, crippled Iran's military capabilities and established air dominance, and while Syria is huge question mark, one could argue Israel is in a strong position.  But of course the quagmire in Gaza overshadows it all.  The sooner Israel can move on from Netanyahu, and someone punts the sadistic dipshit Ben-Gvir to the moon, the better. 

Then maybe my Israeli BIL, proud of his heritage, can put Israel-related stuff back up in his pizza places without his poor Hispanic employees being accosted by dumbass zoomers from Bushwick calling them Zionist killers.

[Pakuni]

Good post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).

Ironically, many people (not you, I imagine) accept and even celebrate the suffering of everyday Gazans because of the actions of their government.

[MU82]

That election was in 2006. They were elected by less than a majority.

Furthermore, as of 2023, the median age in Gaza was just under 20 years old. That means that a vast majority of current Gazans not didn't vote for Hamas, they weren't of voting age OR not even alive at that point.

Superb points.

[Jockey]

Good post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).  And they've gotten this conflict to a point that we've highlighted in previous posts that there is really no easily pragmatic solution for Israel, even if Bibi and Likud were removed from office completely by tomorrow.

And radical Muslims have make Islam a negative term. Christian Nationalists have made christianity a negative term. Raping priests have made catholicism a negative term.


Religions embracing evil and corrupting their version of God is the common denominator here.

[Hards Alumni]

I'm already angry. 

And stupid, don't forget, you're very very stupid.

[Hards Alumni]

I don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Members of the Israeli government say things like this every day.

[Hards Alumni]

That's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

LOL don't go to Myanmar then.

[Hards Alumni]

Its a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

You can argue Israel is screwed in this situation either way and all that will happen in the future is more undue suffering for civilians caught in the middle and I don't really think that is all together untrue.   But you have to at least see how that is not very palatable for a pro-Israel contingent.

I said earlier in this thread, the biggest and most foolish mistake Israel has made in all of this is playing into Hamas' narrative and PR angle so that there is no longer any push or call for Hamas to give in, outside of voices who are immediately dismissed as genocidal Zionists.  Not talking about the pro-Hamas idiots who think 10/7 was a glorious resistance and think they are still winning.  But anyone to the right of that has folded anything related to Hamas into the horrible plight of Palestinian civilians so that anything punitive towards Hamas or potentially damaging to them moving forward is completely off the table so long as Palestinians are harmed in the process.

It's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

[The Sultan]

It's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

And for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

[Scoop Snoop]

And for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

I really would like to hear more details about what the prof proposed please, if you can recall them. I am not being sarcastic. I am, and have long been, in the camp that proposed "solutions" to not just Gaza but countless other wars and conflicts are immensely difficult and require a knowledge of history.

There have been some thoughtful responses by scoopers here, including opposing ones. Simplistic solutions are always available from our resident simpleton.

[MuggsyB]

And for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

It's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

Brilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

[Hards Alumni]

Brilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

If Israel was created as a secular state with equal protection for each citizen then yes, it would have been a far more peaceful situation than what is happening today.

What new Palestinian state are you referring to?  There isn't going to be one.

[MuggsyB]

If Israel was created as a secular state with equal protection for each citizen then yes, it would have been a far more peaceful situation than what is happening today.

What new Palestinian state are you referring to?  There isn't going to be one.

There are many Palestinians that work in Israel and have the same rights.  There have been Palestinians in the Knesset.  I'm referring to the la-la-land scenario you implied with the idea that Palestinian leadership wants peace and equal rights. 

[Hards Alumni]

There are many Palestinians that work in Israel and have the same rights.  There have been Palestinians in the Knesset.  I'm referring to the la-la-land scenario you implied with the idea that Palestinian leadership wants peace abd equal rights. 

I'm sorry to tell you, that this is simply wrong.

You could look into it, but you won't.  I've provided links, and you refuse to educate yourself.  Do better.

[Scoop Snoop]

Brilliant analysis. You've solved everything. 

Oh, the irony!  

[MuggsyB]

I'm sorry to tell you, that this is simply wrong.

You could look into it, but you won't.  I've provided links, and you refuse to educate yourself.  Do better.

Ooh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

[The Sultan]

Brilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

You didn't read what I wrote obviously. There would be one state - a more multi-cultural Israel.

[The Sultan]

Ooh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

Ah. You've decided to not even "do your own research." Pretty sad actually.

[Uncle Rico]

Ah. You've decided to not even "do your own research." Pretty sad actually.

He doesn't use google

[Hards Alumni]

Ooh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

Yeah, as mentioned, you're intent on being ignorant.  Better to sit down if you don't want to participate like an adult.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ooh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

They didn't retract. They added more context about a pre-existing health condition... which doesn't change the fact that the child was starving.

If you don't trust the NYT heres a list of over 100 charitable and human rights orgs that have concluded that there is mass starvation in Gaza, including some Jewish and Israeli groups:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more-than-100-aid-groups-sign-open-letter-warning-of-starvation-in-gaza

[Jockey]

Gotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

[Scoop Snoop]

Gotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

I see it as replying and countering with absolutely no expectation that Muggsy will allow rationality to persuade him that his posts are laughably stupid and display a mind-boggling level of ignorance.  I go straight to ridicule, but I think the approach of others here is just as legitimate.