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Next up:  Seton Hall

Marquette
68
Marquette vs
Seton Hall
Date/Time: Feb 18, 2025 8:00pm
TV: CBS Sports Net
Schedule for 2024-25
DePaul
58

DoctorV

Didn't expect the shot quality +23 stuff, and I don't really follow shot quality because I don't like the idea or 'making excuses,' but i said several times tonight to my group that it was a unicorn game because Marquette was the better team but was out of it wire to wire.

I'd say it happens, but I'd bet if someone looked up shot quality stuff Marquette has never lost a game where it was projected to win by that much.

At the end of the day, nothing mattas outside of tickling the twine with the pumpkin.

Marquette played excellent defense tonight but will take a bath in defensive metrics, and at the end of the day an L is n L.

Onto the Garden

MuggsyB

Quote from: DoctorV on February 01, 2025, 11:51:37 PMDidn't expect the shot quality +23 stuff, and I don't really follow shot quality because I don't like the idea or 'making excuses,' but i said several times tonight to my group that it was a unicorn game because Marquette was the better team but was out of it wire to wire.

I'd say it happens, but I'd bet if someone looked up shot quality stuff Marquette has never lost a game where it was projected to win by that much.

At the end of the day, nothing mattas outside of tickling the twine with the pumpkin.

Marquette played excellent defense tonight but will take a bath in defensive metrics, and at the end of the day an L is n L.

Onto the Garden

You would think we'll play a lot looser on Tues but we're going to have to rebound.  And that includes everyone. 

Pakuni

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 01, 2025, 11:37:54 PMOver the course of a season, if you force your opponent to take more difficult shots (guarded 2s/3s, long 2s, 3s by non 3 point shooters, etc) and you take easy shots (unguarded 2s/3s, layups, dunks, etc) you will win more games than you lose. But in a sample size of 1, you can force your opponent to take a ton of difficult shots, but they all go in anyway. And you can take all easy shots, but they all rim out.

That's all I'm saying here.

I probably wouldn't disagree with the idea that if MU and UConn played this exact same game 10 times, with the only difference being shot making, MU wins most of those games. But tonight they hit the shots and Marquette didn't, and hence (IMO) they outplayed MU.

21Jumpstreet

Such a strange game. I thought man our defense is actually good, but then you look at UConn's offensive stats. Terrible offense, really no movement, but we had a chance. I'm probably most salty that me and the boys went all out, had a few, I was especially vocal, and we lost. Total bummer

Norm

Quote from: Pakuni on February 02, 2025, 12:01:54 AMI probably wouldn't disagree with the idea that if MU and UConn played this exact same game 10 times, with the only difference being shot making, MU wins most of those games. But tonight they hit the shots and Marquette didn't, and hence (IMO) they outplayed MU.

I'd guess that UConn wins 8 out of 10 against MU. Their roster is much better and taller at most every position. It is not a good matchup for MU. We haven't beat them the past two seasons.

CTWarrior

Quote from: forgetful on February 01, 2025, 10:04:49 PMMy opinion. We outplayed them. But we did not hit open shots. They were on fire. They made their big shots when they needed buckets.
This.  This was a weird game in that at 28-13 down I thought we had outplayed them in many respects.  We were getting more shots, more good shots, getting the rebounds/loose balls, we just could not make a freakin' shot and when they got a shot they would not miss.
 
The lead from that point on was just too much to overcome.
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

wisblue

#31
I'm not familiar with how Shot Quality is measured, but I wonder how well it factors in things like who is taking the shots, how well guarded they are, and how well balanced the player is when taking the shots.

Maybe more importantly, can it take into account how the game situation affects how the game is played?

I'm not taking any consolation from statistics that say that MU "outplayed" UConn last night. Shooting ("putting the ball in the basket") is the essence of the game and if you can't do it consistently you might win more than you lose against much inferior opponents, but it isn't going to win championships.

I compare it to playing golf with putting yips. You can "outplay" someone in terms of hitting fairways and greens, but if you fail consistently in the most important aspect of the sport your ceiling is very limited.

HowardsWorld

#32
At some point we just need to agree this team is who they are. It's been a big enough sample over the last month that these last few games are not outliers anymore. This team imo is capable of making a deep run into march depending on the matchups but If i was a betting man, they will struggle to win the 1st game similar to last year, and the get bounced in the 2nd round because of slow starts. To turn your opponent over 25 times and still lose... I don't even know what to say about that.


CTWarrior

I agree wisblue, I take no consolation, either.  I thought we outplayed them in many respects, but putting the ball in the basket is the most important thing in basketball, and we certainly did not outplay them in that respect.

Home losses are killers if we want to win the Big East.  We really need to get this one back at Creighton or St. John's.

Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

lohaus

#34
I have no ideas on measurement either. The one thinny I look at is rhythm shots. I felt UConn's were in rhythm. One play in particular second half started with a quick pass to top of key to wing to corner for rhythm 3. It was all Huskies players making an IMMEDIATE pass. I seen no such thing with Marquette. Our first half offense was dribble to between the restricted area and the Big East logo, turn our backs, and do 3 pivots before you maybe had to pass.

Quote from: wisblue on February 02, 2025, 06:31:25 AMI'm not familiar with how Shot Quality is measured, but I wonder how well it factors in things like who is taking the shots, how well guarded they are, and how well balanced the player is when taking the shots.

Maybe more importantly, can it take into account how the game situation affects how the game is played?

I'm not taking any consolation from statistics that say that MU "outplayed" UConn last night. Shooting ("putting the ball in the basket") is the essence of the game and if you can't do it consistently you might win more than you lose against much inferior opponents, but it isn't going to win championships.

I compare it to playing golf with putting yips. You can "outplay" someone in terms of hitting fairways and greens, but if you fail consistently in the most important aspect of the sport your ceiling is very limited.

MUfan12

Jop does a lot of nice things on defense, but he just murders their flow any time he puts it on the floor.

Pakuni

Quote from: Norm on February 02, 2025, 01:05:41 AMI'd guess that UConn wins 8 out of 10 against MU. Their roster is much better and taller at most every position. It is not a good matchup for MU. We haven't beat them the past two seasons.

Huh?
Karaban 6'8" vs Joplin 6'8"
Johnson 6'10" vs Gold 6'10"
Stewart 6'7" vs Ross 6'5"
Ball 6'2" vs Jones 6'5"
Diarra 6'2" vs Mitchell 6'2"

FairWeatherEagle

I'm lowering expectations.
Will root and hope for wins these next too road games but ...
I'm lowering expectations.

The Sultan

Yeah, I don't think Marquette was "uninspired" at all. If anything, they were too would up.

But just the oddest boxscore. Marquette created 21 turnovers...yet allowed UConn to have an EFG of .738.
"I am one of those who think the best friend of a nation is he who most faithfully rebukes her for her sins—and he her worst enemy, who, under the specious and popular garb of patriotism, seeks to excuse, palliate, and defend them" - Frederick Douglass

TAMU, Knower of Ball

Quote from: Pakuni on February 02, 2025, 12:01:54 AMI probably wouldn't disagree with the idea that if MU and UConn played this exact same game 10 times, with the only difference being shot making, MU wins most of those games. But tonight they hit the shots and Marquette didn't, and hence (IMO) they outplayed MU.

It sounds like you agree but don't like my vocab choice. Insert whatever word(s) you think work better
Quote from: Goose on January 15, 2023, 08:43:46 PM
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


MuggsyB

#40
UCONN hit 3's at an  unusually high clip.  They were open and Ball was hot but we have watched plenty of games where UCONN misses open threes.  You add our FT debacle and you're not beating teams when that happens.  Our FT misses in the 1H allowed this game to get beyond our reach.

Now all this said, people are rightfully concerned about Kam's shot.  It completely changes our offense if he has no confidence in it and teams sag off of him.  I don't know what has transpired but we're talking about a young man who has always been a great shooter.  Right now he doesn't have it and it makes things really difficult for us. 

Part of it may be he's a lot more comfortable in catch and shoots, as most players are, but the ball looks different to me coming out of his hands.  I don't see much rotation and he's launched a number of shots that were nowhere close to going in.  This simply did not happen earlier in the season.  I do believe he can find his shot, and soon, but the bottom line is we have a very limited ceiling if he stays in this slump.

 I would perhaps move him off the ball for short stints and have Stevie run the offense.  I also believe zooming down the court, almost insisting on getting a shot quickly literally every time down the floor, has hurt us vs set defenses.  We have to play with pace but also space, and utilize the pass more with all 5 guys on the floor.  5 total assists last night is an abomination.

The Sultan

Kam has not "always been a great shooter." His career 3 point shooting is about 37%, which is good, but Kam's ability as a scorer has always been balancing the outside shooting with the ability to attack the rim.
"I am one of those who think the best friend of a nation is he who most faithfully rebukes her for her sins—and he her worst enemy, who, under the specious and popular garb of patriotism, seeks to excuse, palliate, and defend them" - Frederick Douglass

wisblue

Quote from: Pakuni on February 02, 2025, 07:40:21 AMHuh?
Karaban 6'8" vs Joplin 6'8"
Johnson 6'10" vs Gold 6'10"
Stewart 6'7" vs Ross 6'5"
Ball 6'2" vs Jones 6'5"
Diarra 6'2" vs Mitchell 6'2"

Last season is totally irrelevant.

UConn had a dominating national championship team and MU played them twice without Kolek, with Oso seeming to not recover from the flu, and, in the BE Final, Mitchell being significantly impaired from the beatings he had taken the previous two nights.

The difference this year is that UConn still has an elite offense and 3 point shooting and at times they took advantage of MU's aggressive defense to work the ball around for 20-25 seconds before getting a decent shot, which they made often enough to maintain their lead.

When they had the 10-15 point lead for much of the second half, even the shot clock violations were useful possessions because they ran 30 seconds off the clock and eliminated the possibility of a quick basket by MU that can come from a live ball turnover or long rebound.

UConn's weakness this year has been its defense, but MU was not able to take advantage of that and didn't get many of the fast break points that take the pressure off of its sketchy half court offense.

It's a bad matchup for MU and anyone who thinks MU would beat them 8 out of 10 times needs adjustments in their blue and gold glasses. MU will be fortunate to beat them 1 out of 2 times and, if it comes to that, 1 out of 3.

mugrad_89

I blame Fox for not giving us Benetti and Raftery on the call.  👀

MUfan12

I'm with ya on this one, Blue. If you had a combined starting five, it'd be Kam and four Huskies. And Hurley was freaking surgical with how he took apart MU's defense.

MU came out doing exactly what they should have done, drive at them. But they were too shook to finish, either at the hoop or the FT line.

They may not win these next two, but I gotta see a helluva lot more from them than I saw last night.

79Warrior

Quote from: Big Papi on February 01, 2025, 10:28:54 PMI thought we were a little too juiced up to start the game. Missed some shots we should make. UConn came out hot. Then you could see the pressure mount quickly and we start missing free throws.

Cant lose Ball on defense.

Hard to come back down 22.  We do battle.

I don't think Uconn is better than us but they were today.

Hopefully we see some shots go in against the stj.

Not sure about that. One of UConn's best players was sitting on the bench. They are a damn good team.

Vander Blue Man Group

Quote from: MUfan12 on February 02, 2025, 09:36:50 AMI'm with ya on this one, Blue. If you had a combined starting five, it'd be Kam and four Huskies. And Hurley was freaking surgical with how he took apart MU's defense.

MU came out doing exactly what they should have done, drive at them. But they were too shook to finish, either at the hoop or the FT line.

They may not win these next two, but I gotta see a helluva lot more from them than I saw last night.

It would not be Kam and 4 Huskies.

Pakuni

#47
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 02, 2025, 08:56:49 AMIt sounds like you agree but don't like my vocab choice. Insert whatever word(s) you think work better

No, I don't agree at all. Your assessment that Marquette outplayed UConn last night eliminates shot making from the equation. Shot making, IMO, is arguably the most important factor in determining which team played better. It's certainly one of the most, if not most, important factor in determining who wins. If last night doesn't prove that, I'm not sure what does.
Just can't buy the argument that the team that shot 20% worse overall, 32% worse from three and 24% worse from the line played better.

TVDirector

As disappointing a game as I can remember-
You simply cannot leave points sitting there with missed bunnies and atrocious free throw percentage.
UConn fouls a lot- that was known. And to simply miss FT after free throw when facing such a team... at home... is inviting trouble.
And another game, at home, where they played an awful first half. Better in the second half, but the game can't be won consistently when beginning the contest at the 20 minute mark.  Butler, we did against an inferior team- but X and UC, squads that already gonna be tough outs, fuhgetaboutit. 

Sure, UC hit 3's like crazy, but outside of that, we should have been in this thing.

On to the next challenge, I 'spose. 

ATL MU Warrior

Pakuni I am with you. How did we outplay them, yet go down 22 in first half and never get closer than 6?  That's a silly thing to say to, I guess, try to feel better about what was an all-around disappointment.

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