2024 Paris Olympics

[forgetful]

Didn't realize they were cis-women to be honest.  Although logically I should have assumed that given that Lia Thomas and others were not allowed to compete.  I have zero problems with cis women competing..never had an issue with the track athlete from South Africa either (Castor??).  My only problem is with biological men, so thanks for clarifying.

Thank you for clarifying, frankly, I was surprised you would have an issue with women who were born XY, but either have genetic variants like Swyer syndrome, or Androgen Insensitivity, leading them to being anatomically female, but genetically XY.

[forgetful]

Imane Khelif does not have Swyers syndrome as those individuals with Swyers produce neither progesterone or testosterone. She is a person with xy chromosomes who presents as a female but whose body produces testosterone levels as a male.  It gives her an advantage over most xx females competing in a sport like boxing. Now if it were synchronized swimming no one would give a hoot.

You have no idea what genetic variants have led to Imane Khelif having female anatomy despite being born XY, so quit postulating and attacking a person who was born a women, and lived as a women her entire life.

Further, although individuals with Swyer syndrome generally (note generally, not always) have low Testosterone, they do produce testosterone as they typically have what are referred to as streak gonads, under-developed gonads that will still release testosterone, sometimes due to certain additional conditions, quite high levels. Since the presence of these streak gonads are prone to progressing to Cancer, they are usually removed as early as they are detected, which can sometimes be well well into adulthood.

Notably, it is believed that Imane Khelif does have Swyer Syndrome, and not other genetic variants that lead to XY female characteristics.

She has had to leave a difficult life already, and will continue to live a difficult life. She doesn't need people attacking her for the way she was born.

[warriorchick]

Yes and no.

FTR, the analyst on NBC covering the Olympics just used the same analogy I did originally, except she used LeBron instead of Shaq.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Excellent.  When exactly did she drop the 🔨 ?  On what event?  Ty.  She wasn't close to 100% from the little I saw.

Again, are you unfamiliar with how to use Google?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Didn't realize they were cis-women to be honest.  Although logically I should have assumed that given that Lia Thomas and others were not allowed to compete.  I have zero problems with cis women competing..never had an issue with the track athlete from South Africa either (Castor??).  My only problem is with biological men, so thanks for clarifying.

It is estimated that there are fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the high school level in the U.S., and a further fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the NCAA level. There are 330 million people in the U.S.

Why is this such an important issue? Why does one side bring up their grievance about this when it affects almost no one? It is utterly insignificant, yet it is a near constant complaint. Why?

[Pakuni]

It is estimated that there are fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the high school level in the U.S., and a further fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the NCAA level. There are 330 million people in the U.S.

Why is this such an important issue? Why does one side bring up their grievance about this when it affects almost no one? It is utterly insignificant, yet it is a near constant complaint. Why?

From the latest stats I could find, there are about 40 transgender NCAA athletes. That's roughly .008 percent of all NCAA athletes.  And, fwiw, many of these are female-to-male transitions.

[jficke13]

It is estimated that there are fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the high school level in the U.S., and a further fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the NCAA level. There are 330 million people in the U.S.

Why is this such an important issue? Why does one side bring up their grievance about this when it affects almost no one? It is utterly insignificant, yet it is a near constant complaint. Why?

Well, obviously it's important because there must be an out group the in group can unify around demonizing. Cf. Eco, Umberto, "A Practical List for Identifying [redacted to protect delicate sensibilities]," factors 5-8.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well, obviously it's important because there must be an out group the in group can unify around demonizing. Cf. Eco, Umberto, "A Practical List for Identifying [redacted to protect delicate sensibilities]," factors 5-8.

Yes, I know the answer, and you are absolutely correct. I was going with the Socratic method with jutaw is all.

[jutaw22mu]

It is estimated that there are fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the high school level in the U.S., and a further fewer than 100 transgender athletes at the NCAA level. There are 330 million people in the U.S.

Why is this such an important issue? Why does one side bring up their grievance about this when it affects almost no one? It is utterly insignificant, yet it is a near constant complaint. Why?

I mean, it's just women's sports...who gives a crap, right?  Except that for every transwoman that is allowed to compete in women;s sport, a biological woman gets displaced or denied that same opportunity.  So, you say "only 100..." while I think that the word "only" preceding 100 in this case is inappropriate since even 1 is too many. 

Except that women, even today when we supposedly have made strides in equality, are still valued less than men.  This is exemplified by the fact that (white) women still make 78 cents for every dollar that a man makes doing the same work...latina women have it worse off at 64 cents.  When we get pregnant, we get "mommy-tracked" at work...meanwhile men don't get "daddy-tracked."  LIttle girls are taught at an early age that they are worth less than  boys---I didn't have any brothers, but I had a lot of friends who did and most of them played second fiddle to their brothers---always. Want to know what it's like being a woman getting an advanced degree in a male-dominated discipline like chemistry?  I have an answer for you and it's not really fun, unless you enjoy being sexually harrassed...

The opportunities that women have today have come from the blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, lives of the women who came before us.  They belong to women and should not be shared with misgendered men/boys.  But it's still a man's world and so much so that they can undergo a "transition," become a walking stereotype of what they think a woman is, force their way into women's spaces/sports/opportunities seeking validation of their idenity and expect, no demand, that women just embrace them wholly and cede their own opportunities.  It is significant.  It is a big deal.  At least it is to 95% of all women.  Any woman who says otherwsie has either never competed beyond a recreational level in a sport or are so deluded about their own athletic abilities that they don't think a trans athlete who went through male puberty will displace them.  Sorry that some of you guys don't understand.

[The Sultan]

I mean, it's just women's sports...who gives a crap, right?  Except that for every transwoman that is allowed to compete in women;s sport, a biological woman gets displaced or denied that same opportunity. 

This is very likely not accurate. My guess is that many, if not most, are in division 3 sports without roster limits.

If you were truly an advocate for women's sports, there are many issues that women have to deal with that are more unjust than this.

But again, that's not your main concern.

[muwarrior69]

I mean, it's just women's sports...who gives a crap, right?  Except that for every transwoman that is allowed to compete in women;s sport, a biological woman gets displaced or denied that same opportunity.  So, you say "only 100..." while I think that the word "only" preceding 100 in this case is inappropriate since even 1 is too many. 

Except that women, even today when we supposedly have made strides in equality, are still valued less than men.  This is exemplified by the fact that (white) women still make 78 cents for every dollar that a man makes doing the same work...latina women have it worse off at 64 cents.  When we get pregnant, we get "mommy-tracked" at work...meanwhile men don't get "daddy-tracked."  LIttle girls are taught at an early age that they are worth less than  boys---I didn't have any brothers, but I had a lot of friends who did and most of them played second fiddle to their brothers---always. Want to know what it's like being a woman getting an advanced degree in a male-dominated discipline like chemistry?  I have an answer for you and it's not really fun, unless you enjoy being sexually harrassed...

The opportunities that women have today have come from the blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, lives of the women who came before us.  They belong to women and should not be shared with misgendered men/boys.  But it's still a man's world and so much so that they can undergo a "transition," become a walking stereotype of what they think a woman is, force their way into women's spaces/sports/opportunities seeking validation of their idenity and expect, no demand, that women just embrace them wholly and cede their own opportunities.  It is significant.  It is a big deal.  At least it is to 95% of all women.  Any woman who says otherwsie has either never competed beyond a recreational level in a sport or are so deluded about their own athletic abilities that they don't think a trans athlete who went through male puberty will displace them.  Sorry that some of you guys don't understand.

Unless a majority of women athletes refuse to participate nothing will change.

[The Sultan]

Unless a majority of women athletes refuse to participate nothing will change.

They won't because most of them are smart enough to realize it's an incredibly insignificant issue. Especially compared to legitimate issues that women athletes face.

[Hards Alumni]

So we'll mark you down as "I want my leaders to chastise those who seek help with their mental health."

Thanks, as always, for your unique perspective.

I think his point was that it was sort of a weird thing to introduce politics overtly into the thread.

And he's not really wrong.

[Hards Alumni]

I mean, it's just women's sports...who gives a crap, right?  Except that for every transwoman that is allowed to compete in women;s sport, a biological woman gets displaced or denied that same opportunity.  So, you say "only 100..." while I think that the word "only" preceding 100 in this case is inappropriate since even 1 is too many. 

Except that women, even today when we supposedly have made strides in equality, are still valued less than men.  This is exemplified by the fact that (white) women still make 78 cents for every dollar that a man makes doing the same work...latina women have it worse off at 64 cents.  When we get pregnant, we get "mommy-tracked" at work...meanwhile men don't get "daddy-tracked."  LIttle girls are taught at an early age that they are worth less than  boys---I didn't have any brothers, but I had a lot of friends who did and most of them played second fiddle to their brothers---always. Want to know what it's like being a woman getting an advanced degree in a male-dominated discipline like chemistry?  I have an answer for you and it's not really fun, unless you enjoy being sexually harrassed...

The opportunities that women have today have come from the blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, lives of the women who came before us.  They belong to women and should not be shared with misgendered men/boys.  But it's still a man's world and so much so that they can undergo a "transition," become a walking stereotype of what they think a woman is, force their way into women's spaces/sports/opportunities seeking validation of their idenity and expect, no demand, that women just embrace them wholly and cede their own opportunities.  It is significant.  It is a big deal.  At least it is to 95% of all women.  Any woman who says otherwsie has either never competed beyond a recreational level in a sport or are so deluded about their own athletic abilities that they don't think a trans athlete who went through male puberty will displace them.  Sorry that some of you guys don't understand.

TERF behavior.

I'll elaborate.  Do you honestly believe that there are men that decide one day to transition to being a woman with the sole intent of being the best at a sport?  Take every single thing you've just said all women go through, and now amplify that 100x for a trans woman.  They become members of a society who hates them for who they are... just to win a sporting event?  Think that one through.  Trans people already have a much higher rate of suicide than cis gendered people.  They have more problems getting and maintaining employment.  They're openly mocked for being who they are on a daily basis.  You seem to think that all it takes to compete in women's sports as a trans woman is showing up one day with a dress on.  Your absolute lack of understanding and empathy on the topic is astounding for someone who seems to want to continue to talk about it. 

[CreightonWarrior]

USA finally getting it rolling against China in beach volleyball and they pause it due to lightning ugh

3rd set was super tight through the first 9 but TKN were able to pull away.

Taryn Kloth is creighton's first ever female olympian and got the sweep through her pool. Very cool.

Lebron showed up after the rain delay and cameras caught a cool interaction between him and kloth after the match.

[rocket surgeon]

I think his point was that it was sort of a weird thing to introduce politics overtly into the thread.

And he's not really wrong.

   ba-ba-BINGO!! 

keep this up hardy and we might have to invite you to our next meat summit

[muwarrior69]

TERF behavior.

I'll elaborate.  Do you honestly believe that there are men that decide one day to transition to being a woman with the sole intent of being the best at a sport?  Take every single thing you've just said all women go through, and now amplify that 100x for a trans woman.  They become members of a society who hates them for who they are... just to win a sporting event?  Think that one through.  Trans people already have a much higher rate of suicide than cis gendered people.  They have more problems getting and maintaining employment.  They're openly mocked for being who they are on a daily basis.  You seem to think that all it takes to compete in women's sports as a trans woman is showing up one day with a dress on.  Your absolute lack of understanding and empathy on the topic is astounding for someone who seems to want to continue to talk about it.

Now you're projecting. No one here hates trans people. We're just saying it is not fair.

[StillAWarrior]

Simone Biles has a better chance of doing a 360 Tomahawk dunk than any NBA player in  the history of the league could do what I just saw on the balance beam.

I busted out my calculator and ran the math on this. Zero chance = zero chance.

[Hards Alumni]

Now you're projecting. No one here hates trans people. We're just saying it is not fair.

I'm not projecting.  And I am suggesting that society as a whole is very transphobic. 

[rocket surgeon]

TERF behavior.

I'll elaborate.  Do you honestly believe that there are men that decide one day to transition to being a woman with the sole intent of being the best at a sport?  Take every single thing you've just said all women go through, and now amplify that 100x for a trans woman.  They become members of a society who hates them for who they are... just to win a sporting event?  Think that one through.  Trans people already have a much higher rate of suicide than cis gendered people.  They have more problems getting and maintaining employment.  They're openly mocked for being who they are on a daily basis.  You seem to think that all it takes to compete in women's sports as a trans woman is showing up one day with a dress on.  Your absolute lack of understanding and empathy on the topic is astounding for someone who seems to want to continue to talk about it.

  the problem as i've personally seen this with a family member, is that "they" promote these changes without enough scrutiny. there isn't enough professional intervention to help many of these people make good choices. 

is anyone held accountable for the failures?  if i'm a doctor and I am treating someone to transition and it fails, are they he'd to the same standard as a failure in any other medical procedure? 

the medical standards of care have not been established here, just as many of the same people tried to establish treatments and discount others for COVID.  there needs to be open and honest debate-this is how good science is established, for the time being anyway, but let's at least allow for clear eyed choices to be made

this is not something to be "experimented" with unless you agree with all the "underground" testing on humans done by for example, the nazis during wwII and the like

I have a niece, who is going thru some real difficult psychological issues.  part of her thinks or wants to be a male, which is fine, except if she were allowed to take the next step physically, even she isn't sure about that.  if she were to go ask for help on her own, the sentiment seems to overwhelming pull her to the side of hormone and physical surgeries which are irreversible.  it seems the "professional" is either reluctant to chime in or are chastised outright into silence leaving the "patient" only one choice...come on over, you'll feel so much better...huh??

[jutaw22mu]

TERF behavior.

I'll elaborate.  Do you honestly believe that there are men that decide one day to transition to being a woman with the sole intent of being the best at a sport?  Take every single thing you've just said all women go through, and now amplify that 100x for a trans woman.  They become members of a society who hates them for who they are... just to win a sporting event?  Think that one through.  Trans people already have a much higher rate of suicide than cis gendered people.  They have more problems getting and maintaining employment.  They're openly mocked for being who they are on a daily basis.  You seem to think that all it takes to compete in women's sports as a trans woman is showing up one day with a dress on.  Your absolute lack of understanding and empathy on the topic is astounding for someone who seems to want to continue to talk about it.

I guess if wanting women's sports to be for women only makes  me a TERF, then so be it (whatever that means).  But, if we are name-calling, then you're a sexist because you think it's acceptable to take away opportunities that were designed for women, which are already limited in scope relative to our male counterparts, and give them to someone who is not biolgoically a woman.  That's pretty cool.

I certainly have empathy for them, and I have no problem with including them in recreational coed sports.  But having empathy does not mean we have to allow them to participate in women's sports.  Maybe they can create their own category and transmen/transwomen can compete there. 

[Hards Alumni]

I guess if wanting women's sports to be for women only makes  me a TERF, then so be it (whatever that means).  But, if we are name-calling, then you're a sexist because you think it's acceptable to take away opportunities that were designed for women, which are already limited in scope relative to our male counterparts, and give them to someone who is not biolgoically a woman.  That's pretty cool.

I certainly have empathy for them, and I have no problem with including them in recreational coed sports.  But having empathy does not mean we have to allow them to participate in women's sports.  Maybe they can create their own category and transmen/transwomen can compete there.

You can Google it if you don't know.  But you probably couldn't be bothered to do that, much like you couldn't be bothered to learn more about the boxers you were uninformed about earlier in the discussion.

What I'm discussing certainly isn't sexist.  Trans women are women. 

[MU82]

I think his point was that it was sort of a weird thing to introduce politics overtly into the thread.

And he's not really wrong.

As one who (as everybody knows) isn't afraid to talk politics but as one who almost never does so in "non-political" threads, I'd agree with you, except ...

1. Two pages about who is and isn't a woman, and trans athletes vs cis athletes, made this thread quite political.

2. roQQet routinely inserts political commentary (at least that's what I think his gibberish about ice cream and bernie's and the big guy is) into all kinds of threads, including basketball threads on The Al. So pardon me if I don't accept him assuming the role of Scoop Police.

3. My post was relevant to the thread IMHO.

But I respect your opinion, so I'll drop it now. Have a good one.

[Hards Alumni]

As one who (as everybody knows) isn't afraid to talk politics but as one who almost never does so in "non-political" threads, I'd agree with you, except ...

1. Two pages about who is and isn't a woman, and trans athletes vs cis athletes, made this thread quite political.

2. roQQet routinely inserts political commentary (at least that's what I think his gibberish about ice cream and bernie's and the big guy is) into all kinds of threads, including basketball threads on The Al. So pardon me if I don't accept him assuming the role of Scoop Police.

3. My post was relevant to the thread IMHO.

But I respect your opinion, so I'll drop it now. Have a good one.

1. They're societal discussions, no one brought up a single politician until you did.

2. If rocket jumped of a bridge would you do it too?  Also, I'm not singling you out since I think it's pretty easy to find plenty of my posts criticizing rocket.

3.  If you feel that way, that's fine, but it was about JD Vance's opinion of Simone Biles.  Who cares what he thinks, and where does it steer the conversation besides toward a cliff?

[The Sultan]

I guess if wanting women's sports to be for women only makes  me a TERF, then so be it (whatever that means).  But, if we are name-calling, then you're a sexist because you think it's acceptable to take away opportunities that were designed for women, which are already limited in scope relative to our male counterparts, and give them to someone who is not biolgoically a woman.  That's pretty cool.

I certainly have empathy for them, and I have no problem with including them in recreational coed sports.  But having empathy does not mean we have to allow them to participate in women's sports.  Maybe they can create their own category and transmen/transwomen can compete there. 

There is not a single post in your history here that suggests that you have empathy for them at all.  Your anti-gay and anti-trans beliefs shine through pretty clearly. And you use the "pro women's sports" as a red herring to legitimize those beliefs. Yet, to my knowledge, you have NEVER posted anything here that suggests you care about the inequities of women's sports at all.