What is our all-time 12?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?

Muggsy:
He had enormous hands and very broad shoulders

And he played in the 1950s

[MUMBA]

My fandom took off in 2005, so my list picks up from that point. Only 12? haven’t been around for long compared to some, but I found this hard to do. 

Jerel/Wesley/Dominic
Lazar/Jimmy
Jae/DJO
Markus
Kolek/Oso/Kam/Stevie

Honorable Mentions: Junior Cadugan, Devante Gardner, Chris Otule, Theo John, Andrew Rowsey

[Viper]

Here's my 8 off the top of my head in no particular order:

Wade
Kolek
Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Thompson
Crowder
Meminger

Difficult due to how the game changes…Earl Tatum, George Thompson, Lloyd Walton, Bernard Toone, Robert Byrd, Marcus Washington, national POY Butch Lee…even Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Diener, McNeil, Don James, Doc, Markus, Hutch…difficult to put together an all-time list.

[MU82]

Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Lucas
Lee
Ellis
Wade
Howard
Kolek

Tough to leave out any one of those 9, IMHO. After that, it's a matter of personal preference. I'd probably go with:

Tatum
Crowder
Diener

But I could understand the inclusion of any number of others: Walton, McNeal, Matthews, James, Smith, Hayward, Lackey, Kojis, Smith, etc.

[willie warrior]

How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?

Because he was that good.

[brewcity77]

Because he was that good.

This isn't true. It's because it was a completely different game and rebounding then wasn't what it is now. As a sophomore and junior, Kojis averaged 13.0 and 15.4 rebounds per game and didn't rank in the top-10 nationally. As a senior, his 17.1 rebounds were only 6th in the country.

The reason it was such a big deal when Fardaws Aimaq (15.0 rebounds in 2020-21) and Oscar Tshiebwe (15.2 in 2021-22) cracked the 15 rebound per game mark was because it hadn't happened in over 40 years when Monti Davis averaged 16.2 in 1978-79. Kojis couldn't crack the top-5 in the country as a senior with 17.1 rpg, but that number would've been #1 in the nation every year since 1976 when Robert Parrish posted 18.0 for Centenary.

If you're going to believe that the rebounders of the 1950s were somehow inherently superior to more "modern" rebounders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Paul Millsap, Kenneth Faried, and Oscar Tshiebwe, among many others, then I have some lovely developmental real estate in south Florida to sell you.

There's certainly an argument for Kojis to be on an all-time 12 and I won't object to anyone making it, but "because he was that good" doesn't really apply to someone who only cracked the top-10 nationally in RPG and never made the top-5.

[Uncle Rico]

This isn't true. It's because it was a completely different game and rebounding then wasn't what it is now. As a sophomore and junior, Kojis averaged 13.0 and 15.4 rebounds per game and didn't rank in the top-10 nationally. As a senior, his 17.1 rebounds were only 6th in the country.

The reason it was such a big deal when Fardaws Aimaq (15.0 rebounds in 2020-21) and Oscar Tshiebwe (15.2 in 2021-22) cracked the 15 rebound per game mark was because it hadn't happened in over 40 years when Monti Davis averaged 16.2 in 1978-79. Kojis couldn't crack the top-5 in the country as a senior with 17.1 rpg, but that number would've been #1 in the nation every year since 1976 when Robert Parrish posted 18.0 for Centenary.

If you're going to believe that the rebounders of the 1950s were somehow inherently superior to more "modern" rebounders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Paul Millsap, Kenneth Faried, and Oscar Tshiebwe, among many others, then I have some lovely developmental real estate in south Florida to sell you.

There's certainly an argument for Kojis to be on an all-time 12 and I won't object to anyone making it, but "because he was that good" doesn't really apply to someone who only cracked the top-10 nationally in RPG and never made the top-5.

Listen, basketball was pure as snow back then.  A lot of guys playing it the right way

[Uncle Rico]

My all-time 12

Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter

[mileskishnish72]

Kojis
Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Ellis
Lucas
Lee
Hayward
Crowder
Howard
Kolek
Wade

[Dr. Blackheart]

My all-time 12

Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter

No Rice Lakers? 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Terry Rand > Kojis

Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger.  And it's not really even close.

[Uncle Rico]

No Rice Lakers?

Just missed the cut.  But definitely could walk on with Carlino and Heldt

[wisblue]

Difficult due to how the game changes…Earl Tatum, George Thompson, Lloyd Walton, Bernard Toone, Robert Byrd, Marcus Washington, national POY Butch Lee…even Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Diener, McNeil, Don James, Doc, Markus, Hutch…difficult to put together an all-time list.

I think Muggsy’s 8 and your list make up an excellent list of nominees from which 12 could be picked.It covers most of the best players of their eras, including several who are IMHO clearly not top 12.

I will only go back as far as players I actually saw, so that eliminates Kojis. Muggsy, and others, if you’ve never done it you should go to You Tube and find some video of basketball in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It won’t take long to realize why stats from that era cannot be compared to today. Bob Cousy was considered a wizard with the ball, and when you see the clips now he looks like an old guy playing at the YMCA.

On the MU list I would be biased in favor of players who played at least 3 years for MU, with a special exception for Wade because of how outstanding he was in his two years. I have a tougher time with Crowder and Chones, though Chones’ situation was unique.

My list in chronological order would start with:

Thompson
Meminger
Lucas
Tatum
Ellis
Lee
Smith
Wade

It gets harder from there but it’s hard for me to leave out the high scorers who played for 4 years like McNeal and Howard.

I would also include Kolek even though there might be some recency bias, but he is one of my all time favorite MU players on some favorite teams, and two years of AA honors speak for themselves.

So my list includes only 11 and Chones, Rivers, Diener, and  James would be OK for my 12th.

Based on some of the comments on the board this last week, I’m a little surprised anyone mentions any players that didn’t play in a team that went to the Final Four. I’m told nobody remembers seasons that don’t end in a Final Four, but apparently I’m not the only “nobody”.

[MuggsyB]

I think Muggsy’s 8 and your list make up an excellent list of nominees from which 12 could be picked.It covers most of the best players of their eras, including several who are IMHO clearly not top 12.

I will only go back as far as players I actually saw, so that eliminates Kojis. Muggsy, and others, if you’ve never done it you should go to You Tube and find some video of basketball in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It won’t take long to realize why stats from that era cannot be compared to today. Bob Cousy was considered a wizard with the ball, and when you see the clips now he looks like an old guy playing at the YMCA.

On the MU list I would be biased in favor of players who played at least 3 years for MU, with a special exception for Wade because of how outstanding he was in his two years. I have a tougher time with Crowder and Chones, though Chones’ situation was unique.

My list in chronological order would start with:

Thompson
Meminger
Lucas
Tatum
Ellis
Lee
Smith
Wade

It gets harder from there but it’s hard for me to leave out the high scorers who played for 4 years like McNeal and Howard.

I would also include Kolek even though there might be some recency bias, but he is one of my all time favorite MU players on some favorite teams, and two years of AA honors speak for themselves.

So my list includes only 11 and Chones, Rivers, Diener, and  James would be OK for my 12th.

Based on some of the comments on the board this last week, I’m a little surprised anyone mentions any players that didn’t play in a team that went to the Final Four. I’m told nobody remembers seasons that don’t end in a Final Four, but apparently I’m not the only “nobody”.

Maybe I should have put a caveat on this but I'm looking for the 12 best players while they were shredding people at MU.  Ergo, guys like Wade and Chones would assumedly be automatic members despite their truncated careers. 

As far as Kojis I would just say that you have to compare his game to those from his era. 

The idea of Kolek not being a consensus top 8 really surprises me.   Stats also don't really measure his overall impact.  The stat that matters most is wins.  As Danny Hurley stated "MU without Tyko is like the Chiefs without Mahomes."  He's the best/most impactful player I have seen at MU since Wade and I don't think it's particularly close. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger.  And it's not really even close.

Kolek's last two years were better than any year Diener had at MU.

[Pakuni]

My all-time 12

Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter

Disappointed by the lack of sneaky athleticism with this squad.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Kolek's last two years were better than any year Diener had at MU.

Don't know where you get your advanced statistics from, Fluffy, but it's not close that Diener was better.  Which is why I used the word "statistically" to compare between eras, injuries, rule changes and quality of the teams. 

Eye test may be different and the quality of the team was better for TKo, but Travis was outstanding his junior and senior years on Orating, Assist%, TO %, 3% on much, much higher usage. Was a great trey shooter. Take senior year:  126.6 Orating, 53.3 Assist Rate, 15.6 TO Rate, on 30.5 usage.  Junior year was just slightly below that. 

And that's not to diminish Tyler's amazing two years but to point out how underestimated Travis was, especially with no supporting cast. More so, this is about all time so it's about body of work and so dismissing mediocre seasons is not a legitimate criteria (see Tony Smith as well).

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Nevermind. Shouldn't have engaged in these meaningless debates.

[muwarrior97]

Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!!  I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior , was GOLD for a second  and finished as an Eagle

Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek

Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena

[tower912]

Disappointed by the lack of sneaky athleticism with this squad.

Need Ellensons for that.

[Nukem2]

Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!!  I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior , was GOLD for a second  and finished as an Eagle

Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek

Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena

Meminger

[Warrior Code]

Warrior Code at the rec has to at least be honorable mention

[THRILLHO]

Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!!  I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior , was GOLD for a second  and finished as an Eagle

Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek

Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena

Bart Miller is a bold choice!

[lawdog77]

Bart Miller is a bold choice!

So was Oliver Lee.

[swoopem]

I’m going in chronological order (I think, I’m a 2010 grad). Also, I’m going for the best 12 man team, not necessarily the best 12:

George Thompson
Dean Meminger
Jim Chones
Earl Tatum
Mo Lucas
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
D Wade
Novak (need shooting)
Jerel
Markus
Kolek