IDF targets and kills food aid workers

[Hards Alumni]

Maybe, but I would argue that Ulster loyalists in Northern Ireland or non-separatists in Basque would argue that the goals of those organizations would eliminate those nations as they know it.

I think the larger point here is that these types of organizations can be neutered/eliminated by methods very different from what Israel is doing in Gaza.

Yes, that is the exact point.

There was a time and a place for a Palestinian state to be a viable option. But mostly due to Israel and Iran, that was a option that was never going to work - and it didn't.  And now that option is long into the future. 

But it would need to look like this...

*Iran stopping the funding of Hamas and Hezbollah.
*Israel stopping its violations of agreements in the West Bank
*Israel, and others, investing in rebuilding the infrastructure in Gaza.
*Palestine recognizing the legitimacy of Israel, and both sides recognizing the legitimacy of its borders.
*Palestine being allowed to function as an actual nation state.

All of this isn't likely to happen soon.

The only solution is a one state secular nation that respects all of its citizens equally.  Honestly, it is the only way out of this mess.

[forgetful]

It's an easy argument to make. Here is the language

Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

"However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

They accept a 2-state solution as the national consensus. The entire world agrees that their 2017 (although possibly disingenuous) charter accepts a 2-state solution.

The Likud Party on the other hand does not, they explicitly state they will never accept a 2-state solution.

I don't believe anything Hamas says (nor the Likud party for that matter), but the reason they modified the 2017 charter is because the Palestinian people as a national consensus simply want peace and a 2-state solution along the 1967 borders. That doesn't mean that they don't think the original partition was illegal and wrong, they are likely never going to think that was legal and right, but they recognize the path forwards is towards a peaceful 2-state solution.

[MUBurrow]

Well, I am glad you think covenants are so sacred to these guys. I hope they are following their bylaws when it comes to electing their directors and following their respective term limits.

I think this is an absolute silly point you are making.

I think he's just saying that when a group tells you who they are, maybe believe them?

[jesmu84]

The only solution is a one state secular nation that respects all of its citizens equally.  Honestly, it is the only way out of this mess.

Bingo

[Pakuni]

I think he's just saying that when a group tells you who they are, maybe believe them?

So, the IRA won't quit until the British are out of Northern Ireland and the Republic is unified?

[lawdog77]

So, the IRA won't quit until the British are out of Northern Ireland and the Republic is unified?

So, Hamas is in the right, now?

[The Sultan]

So, Hamas is in the right, now?

What?

[lawdog77]

What?

I read Pakuni's comment to mean that he thinks Hamas has changed its ways from an eliminate Israel terrorist group to a we can work side by side with Israel.

When Pakuni compares Hamas to ETA or the IRA, the problem is Hamas is the actual government of a country.

[Pakuni]

I read Pakuni's comment to mean that he thinks Hamas has changed its ways from an eliminate Israel terrorist group to a we can work side by side with Israel.

No you don't. You're being disingenuous.
Thought we were having an adult conversation. Guess not.

[lawdog77]

No you don't. You're being disingenuous.
Thought we were having an adult conversation. Guess not.

Mind reader now? To me, it looks like you were trying to do a "gotcha" on MuBurrow. by saying terrorist organizations change.

Good article here:
https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-road-to-october-7-hamas-long-game-clarified/

[Pakuni]

Mind reader now? To me, it looks like you were trying to do a "gotcha" on MuBurrow. by saying terrorist organizations change.

Good article here:
https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-road-to-october-7-hamas-long-game-clarified/

Even if that were my objective - it wasn't - how do you understand that to mean "Pakuni believes Hamas is in the right"?
You don't. You're not that stupid. And because I don't believe you're that stupid, the alternative is that you're being disingenuous.

How about we try to have a conversation without dumbass accusations about being pro-Hamas or anti-semitic or in favor of blowing up Palestinian babies? Let's leave that for the dentists. Nobody here is any of those things.

[MuggsyB]

Yes, that is the exact point.
The only solution is a one state secular nation that respects all of its citizens equally.  Honestly, it is the only way out of this mess.

One million Palestinians work in Israel despite the media labeling the country an apartheid state.  Give us a time frame of when Palestinian leadership will accept the existence of a Jewish State.  As long as Iran is funding proxies in the region the only goal of these groups is wiping Israel off the map.  And the majority of Palestinians are sympathetic to this cause.  Hence, deal with the Mullahs using relentless force and power..

[Pakuni]

One million Palestinians work in Israel despite the media labeling the country an apartheid state.

Black people worked in South Africa during the apartheid era.

Give us a time frame of when Palestinian leadership will accept the existence of a Jewish State. 

They already have.

And the majority of Palestinians are sympathetic to this cause.

Source?

[lawdog77]

Even if that were my objective - it wasn't - how do you understand that to mean "Pakuni believes Hamas is in the right"?
You don't. You're not that stupid. And because I don't believe you're that stupid, the alternative is that you're being disingenuous.

How about we try to have a conversation without dumbass accusations about being pro-Hamas or anti-semitic or in favor of blowing up Palestinian babies? Let's leave that for the dentists. Nobody here is any of those things.

You're the one being disingenuous now. The conversation was about whether one should take Hamas for what they wrote in their charter. You tried a gotcha on Burrow showing the IRA changed their objective. Connect the dots, One believes Hamas that they could live in a Middle East with Israel. Israel bombing Gaza means Hamas is in the right. You really can't compare what Israel is doing to what Spain did with ETA, or England did with IRA. Hamas, despite being a terrorist organization, is the current government in Palestine.

The dentist jokes have jumped the shark a long time ago. I cannot believe how many on this board take personal attacks. I guess that's the internet world we live in.

[lawdog77]

They already have.

If you actually think Hamas was going to coexist with Israel long term, I have some land to sell you.

[Uncle Rico]

If you actually think Hamas was going to coexist with Israel long term, I have some land to sell you.

Land is usually a solid investment

[forgetful]

I read Pakuni's comment to mean that he thinks Hamas has changed its ways from an eliminate Israel terrorist group to a we can work side by side with Israel.

When Pakuni compares Hamas to ETA or the IRA, the problem is Hamas is the actual government of a country.

This is false. There is no country, they have been refused the right to establish an independent state. They have some political autonomy over what is considered occupied territories under international law.

Israel is viewed as the illegal occupier of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

[Pakuni]

If you actually think Hamas was going to coexist with Israel long term, I have some land to sell you.

What if I were to tell you that Hamas is not synonymous with "Palestinian leadership?"
And, in fact, a significant majority of Palestinians - like 60+ percent - don't live in Gaza?

[Pakuni]

You're the one being disingenuous now. The conversation was about whether one should take Hamas for what they wrote in their charter. You tried a gotcha on Burrow showing the IRA changed their objective.
Connect the dots, One believes Hamas that they could live in a Middle East with Israel. Israel bombing Gaza means Hamas is in the right. You really can't compare what Israel is doing to what Spain did with ETA, or England did with IRA. Hamas, despite being a terrorist organization, is the current government in Palestine.
The dentist jokes have jumped the shark a long time ago. I cannot believe how many on this board take personal attacks. I guess that's the internet world we live in.

In recent months you've called me anti-semitic and pro-Hamas. And you whine about personal attacks on dentists.
I was wrong. You are stupid.

[lawdog77]

What if I were to tell you that Hamas is not synonymous with "Palestinian leadership?"
And, in fact, a significant majority of Palestinians - like 60+ percent - don't live in Gaza?

Sure it is. Hamas leads.
Legislative elections were held in the Palestinian territories on 25 January 2006 in order to elect the second Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats.

The newly elected PLC met for the first time on 18 February 2006. Incumbent Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei tendered his resignation on 26 January 2006, but remained interim Prime Minister at the request of President Mahmoud Abbas. On 20 February, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was nominated to form a new government. The new government with Haniyeh as Prime Minister was sworn in on 29 March. As of May 2024, no new elections have been held since this one

[lawdog77]

This is false. There is no country, they have been refused the right to establish an independent state. They have some political autonomy over what is considered occupied territories under international law.

Israel is viewed as the illegal occupier of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

As of May 2024, Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 145 out of 193 member states of the United Nations.

[Hards Alumni]

As of May 2024, Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 145 out of 193 member states of the United Nations.

Sounds like the upstart rebels are starting to win some global sympathy.

[lawdog77]

Sounds like the upstart rebels are starting to win some global sympathy.

I think they should be recognized as a country.

[Pakuni]

Sure it is. Hamas leads.
Legislative elections were held in the Palestinian territories on 25 January 2006 in order to elect the second Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats.

The newly elected PLC met for the first time on 18 February 2006. Incumbent Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei tendered his resignation on 26 January 2006, but remained interim Prime Minister at the request of President Mahmoud Abbas. On 20 February, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was nominated to form a new government. The new government with Haniyeh as Prime Minister was sworn in on 29 March. As of May 2024, no new elections have been held since this one

You need better sources. Hamas governs only Gaza. The Palestinian Authority governs the West Bank, where the majority of Palestinians live.

Hamas briefly joined the PA, rising to the head of the authority in 2006 after winning general elections in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. But it split from the authority months later, when the rival faction Fatah, which has long dominated the PA, refused to recognize Hamas's election victory. The two went to war, and though Fatah was able to oust Hamas from the West Bank and maintain its sway over Palestinian affairs there, Hamas's forces prevailed in the Gaza Strip, securing the group's control over the territory. The Gaza-West Bank schism is severe enough that some experts considered Gaza to be "practically a separate state" before the most recent war with Israel devastated the territory.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/who-governs-palestinians

[Hards Alumni]

I think they should be recognized as a country.

Who should pay for the rebuild of the destroyed country?