IDF targets and kills food aid workers

[Pakuni]

Not sure it was the religious zealotry that caused everyone to hate ISIS. It might have been the terrorist attacks and killings.

With ISIS, one led directly to the other.
Unlike other Islamist terrorist organizations, which use religion to gain support for/cover their political ambitions (looking at you, al Qaeda), ISIS were/are true believers.

[lawdog77]

With ISIS, one led directly to the other.
Unlike other Islamist terrorist organizations, which use religion to gain support for/cover their political ambitions (looking at you, al Qaeda), ISIS were/are true believers.

I get that, its just the way I read fluffy's comment, it sounded like he was saying that everyone would have been OK with the killings if it weren't for their religious zealotry. Zealotry does not have to be violent.

[MUBurrow]

Not sure what you mean. Explain further, please.

When someone gets asked to distinguish Gazan Palestinians generally from Hamas, Hamas is made out to be a much more fleshed out, organized entity and they take on an oppressor role.   In that vein, "destroying Hamas" would not seem to be any more an illegitimate victory condition than "destroying ISIS" was, and no one objected to that at the time.  The West did not have an issue imposing a view of the war against ISIS as one of liberation, but that same war of liberation viewpoint is not applied to the war against Hamas.  That seems odd, and I wonder if the acceptable threshold of collateral damage would shift if this were sold partly as a war of liberating Gaza from Hamas, rather than solely as retributive for Hamas's attack on Israel.

[Pakuni]

When someone gets asked to distinguish Gazan Palestinians generally from Hamas, Hamas is made out to be a much more fleshed out, organized entity and they take on an oppressor role.   In that vein, "destroying Hamas" would not seem to be any more an illegitimate victory condition than "destroying ISIS" was, and no one objected to that at the time.  The West did not have an issue imposing a view of the war against ISIS as one of liberation, but that same war of liberation viewpoint is not applied to the war against Hamas.  That seems odd, and I wonder if the acceptable threshold of collateral damage would shift if this were sold partly as a war of liberating Gaza from Hamas, rather than solely as retributive for Hamas's attack on Israel.

Not sure, as no one has actually tried to sell it that way. I don't recall the war on ISIS being pitched as a war of liberation either, tbh. It was more like, "these monstrous nuts need to be stopped."

I suspect Israel positioning itself as the liberator of the Palestinian people would be a tough sell, especially among the Palestinians. Israeli tanks would not be welcomed with flowers. Nonethleless, I'd be impressed with the, dareisay, chutzpah of such a PR campaign.

Who, by the way, is arguing that "destroying Hamas" is an illegitimate objective?

[jesmu84]

[Hards Alumni]

Not sure, as no one has actually tried to sell it that way. I don't recall the war on ISIS being pitched as a war of liberation either, tbh. It was more like, "these monstrous nuts need to be stopped."

I suspect Israel positioning itself as the liberator of the Palestinian people would be a tough sell, especially among the Palestinians. Israeli tanks would not be welcomed with flowers. Nonethleless, I'd be impressed with the, dareisay, chutzpah of such a PR campaign.

Who, by the way, is arguing that "destroying Hamas" is an illegitimate objective?

I'll call it illogical and impossible, and therefore illegitimate.  Especially, considering the cost to the civilian population.

[Pakuni]

I'll call it illogical and impossible, and therefore illegitimate.  Especially, considering the cost to the civilian population.

Plenty of terrorist organizations have come and gone. Anyone hear a peep from the FALN lately? How about the Red Army Faction? Where's the Shining Path these days?
The ETA has been dissolved and the IRA is just another political party.
But I do agree that large-scale military operations and collective punishment of a civilian population is not the way to be rid of a Hamas-like entity.

[forgetful]

When someone gets asked to distinguish Gazan Palestinians generally from Hamas, Hamas is made out to be a much more fleshed out, organized entity and they take on an oppressor role.   In that vein, "destroying Hamas" would not seem to be any more an illegitimate victory condition than "destroying ISIS" was, and no one objected to that at the time.  The West did not have an issue imposing a view of the war against ISIS as one of liberation, but that same war of liberation viewpoint is not applied to the war against Hamas.  That seems odd, and I wonder if the acceptable threshold of collateral damage would shift if this were sold partly as a war of liberating Gaza from Hamas, rather than solely as retributive for Hamas's attack on Israel.

If the war was promoted as, we are going to remove Hamas and set up a free and independent Palestinian State (which would be one of liberation), you would see the world react differently.

But if that was offered. The war would be over very quickly, as that is pretty much what the Palestinians want.

But that isn't remotely what is going on here. The Likud party's formal stance is there will never be a Palestinian State anywhere between the river and the sea. It is not a war of liberation, or removal of Hamas, it is a war of collective punishment.

[4everwarriors]

Total bullchit, aina?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Total bullchit, aina?

Well, you are Scoop's leading authority on total bullchit.

[lawdog77]

Plenty of terrorist organizations have come and gone. Anyone hear a peep from the FALN lately? How about the Red Army Faction? Where's the Shining Path these days?
The ETA has been dissolved and the IRA is just another political party.
But I do agree that large-scale military operations and collective punishment of a civilian population is not the way to be rid of a Hamas-like entity.

Good points, but in general, groups like ETA and the IRA were fighting for independence. ETA basically lost  membership and support after several of their bombings. I am not sure if a majority of Basques even wanted independence.

Hamas is not fighting for independence, they are fighting for the destruction of Israel which is stated directly in the preamble of their covenant. How does one fight that?  I agree that collective punishment is not working.

[The Sultan]

Good points, but in general, groups like ETA and the IRA were fighting for independence. ETA basically lost  membership and support after several of their bombings. I am not sure if a majority of Basques even wanted independence.

Hamas is not fighting for independence, they are fighting for the destruction of Israel which is stated directly in the preamble of their covenant. How does one fight that?  I agree that collective punishment is not working.

Eh. One's fight for independence is another's destruction of a country. That seems to be a distinction without a difference.

[Hards Alumni]

Good points, but in general, groups like ETA and the IRA were fighting for independence. ETA basically lost  membership and support after several of their bombings. I am not sure if a majority of Basques even wanted independence.

Hamas is not fighting for independence, they are fighting for the destruction of Israel which is stated directly in the preamble of their covenant. How does one fight that?  I agree that collective punishment is not working.

The Basques and the Catalonians want to be free of Spain.  They've felt this way since before the civil war, and have pushed it harder since the end of Franco.

The IRA bombed civilians routinely and lived amongst the population.  They're a pretty decent analog.  Hamas just has Iranian backing for its weapons.  In the end, the English worked with the IRA for peace instead of bombing Northern Ireland into submission

[lawdog77]

Eh. One's fight for independence is another's destruction of a country. That seems to be a distinction without a difference.

I disagree. ETA nor the IRA had in their charter to eliminate Spain/France and England respectively

[The Sultan]

I disagree. ETA nor the IRA had in their charter to eliminate Spain/France and England respectively

I didn't realize that terrorist organizations governing documents were so sacred.

Regardless, I think Spain and England would disagree with that statement.

[MuggsyB]

If the war was promoted as, we are going to remove Hamas and set up a free and independent Palestinian State (which would be one of liberation), you would see the world react differently.

But if that was offered. The war would be over very quickly, as that is pretty much what the Palestinians want.

But that isn't remotely what is going on here. The Likud party's formal stance is there will never be a Palestinian State anywhere between the river and the sea. It is not a war of liberation, or removal of Hamas, it is a war of collective punishment.

So, on say Oct 10th, or November 10th, or whenever, your solution was for the Israeli government to offer a Palestinian State and let bygones be bygones?   To the PA and Abbas presumably?  What exactly does a viable Palestinian State look like and under whose leadership?

[lawdog77]

The Basques and the Catalonians want to be free of Spain.  They've felt this way since before the civil war, and have pushed it harder since the end of Franco.

n 2018, Basque activists held a "right to decide" campaign to prompt a referendum on the region's political future. This movement appeared to follow Catalonia's 2017 referendum nominally declaring the independence of their own region. Despite this political maneuver, local polling in the Basque Country noted that only 14 percent of respondents desired independence. Additionally, few politicians supporting the "right to decide" appeared willing to define what exactly any referendum would seek to accomplish.

Although Basques might be considered autonomous, they do not want to be independent.

[lawdog77]

I didn't realize that terrorist organizations governing documents were so sacred.

Regardless, I think Spain and England would disagree with that statement.

They are to the terrorists apparently.

I dont. ETA  and the IRA were more than willing to stop if they were given their independece. To Hamas, it means taking all of Israel. Big difference.

[The Sultan]

They are to the terrorists apparently.

I dont. ETA  and the IRA were more than willing to stop if they were given their independece. To Hamas, it means taking all of Israel. Big difference.

But Spain would argue its not Spain without the Basque Country.

Again, this is a distinction without a meaningful difference.

[lawdog77]

But Spain would argue its not Spain without the Basque Country.

Again, this is a distinction without a meaningful difference.

It's a huge difference. If Hamas had it's way there would be no Israel. If ETA had its way, Spain would lose about 1-2% of its land.

[forgetful]

Good points, but in general, groups like ETA and the IRA were fighting for independence. ETA basically lost  membership and support after several of their bombings. I am not sure if a majority of Basques even wanted independence.

Hamas is not fighting for independence, they are fighting for the destruction of Israel which is stated directly in the preamble of their covenant. How does one fight that?  I agree that collective punishment is not working.

Their 2017 charter says otherwise, and that they support a 2-state solution along the 1967 borders.

You can make the argument that it is disingenuous, but their governing charter asks for a 2-state solution.

[The Sultan]

So, on say Oct 10th, or November 10th, or whenever, your solution was for the Israeli government to offer a Palestinian State and let bygones be bygones?   To the PA and Abbas presumably?  What exactly does a viable Palestinian State look like and under whose leadership?

There was a time and a place for a Palestinian state to be a viable option. But mostly due to Israel and Iran, that was a option that was never going to work - and it didn't.  And now that option is long into the future. 

But it would need to look like this...

*Iran stopping the funding of Hamas and Hezbollah.
*Israel stopping its violations of agreements in the West Bank
*Israel, and others, investing in rebuilding the infrastructure in Gaza.
*Palestine recognizing the legitimacy of Israel, and both sides recognizing the legitimacy of its borders.
*Palestine being allowed to function as an actual nation state.

All of this isn't likely to happen soon.

[Pakuni]

I disagree. ETA nor the IRA had in their charter to eliminate Spain/France and England respectively

Maybe, but I would argue that Ulster loyalists in Northern Ireland or non-separatists in Basque would argue that the goals of those organizations would eliminate those nations as they know it.

I think the larger point here is that these types of organizations can be neutered/eliminated by methods very different from what Israel is doing in Gaza.

[lawdog77]

Their 2017 charter says otherwise, and that they support a 2-state solution along the 1967 borders.

You can make the argument that it is disingenuous, but their governing charter asks for a 2-state solution.

It's an easy argument to make. Here is the language

Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

[The Sultan]

It's a huge difference. If Hamas had it's way there would be no Israel. If ETA had its way, Spain would lose about 1-2% of its land.

Well, I am glad you think covenants are so sacred to these guys. I hope they are following their bylaws when it comes to electing their directors and following their respective term limits.

I think this is an absolute silly point you are making.