2023-24 NBA Thread

[PGsHeroes32]

It comes from some media pushing the narrative that he's a top 5 player in the NBA (he's not, and he never has been), and then people went way overboard in pushing back on that.  He's a great player, but not a tier 1 player.  Nothing wrong with it, but he's been pretty average, relative to what a number 1 player on an NBA title team should be, this Playoffs.  And he was bad in the 2022 Finals.

Exactly this. And nowhere near Luka.

Great player. Needs a killer like Brown with him plus a great cast.

[MuggsyB]

Exactly this. And nowhere near Luka.

Great player. Needs a killer like Brown with him plus a great cast.

I've pimped Brown for 3+ years.  I get he has had his issues dribbling, and at times in other playoff series, but he's better than his stats indicate.  He's a true 2-Way player  and is arguably as versatile a defender as there is in the NBA.  Minnesota had the best statistical defense but couldn't guard Dallas at all.  Boston's switchability led by Brown, is the reason this series has been one sided. 

[wadesworld]

I've pimped Brown for 3+ years.  I get he has had his issues dribbling, and at times in other playoff series, but he's better than his stats indicate.  He's a true 2-Way player  and is arguably as versatile a defender as there is in the NBA.  Minnesota had the best statistical defense but couldn't guard Dallas at all.  Boston's switchability led by Brown, is the reason this series has been one sided.

The most versatile defender in the NBA?  Have you not watched his teammate Jrue Holiday?  Not to mention Giannis, Jimmy Butler, AD, Bam, OG, Evan Mobley, Draymond, Thybulle, Kawhi, Paul George....

Brown hasn't made a single All Defense Team (First or Second) in his career.  He's a good defender.  But he's not close to as good as you're claiming he is.

[JWags85]

The most versatile defender in the NBA?  Have you not watched his teammate Jrue Holiday?  Not to mention Giannis, Jimmy Butler, AD, Bam, OG, Evan Mobley, Draymond, Thybulle, Kawhi, Paul George....

Brown hasn't made a single All NBA Team (First or Second) in his career.  He's a good defender.  But he's not close to as good as you're claiming he is.

Pretty sure Muggsy has said Brown is the best SG in the NBA so that tracks.

[Tyler COLEk]

It comes from some media pushing the narrative that he's a top 5 player in the NBA (he's not, and he never has been), and then people went way overboard in pushing back on that.  He's a great player, but not a tier 1 player.  Nothing wrong with it, but he's been pretty average, relative to what a number 1 player on an NBA title team should be, this Playoffs.  And he was bad in the 2022 Finals.

The media pushed the exact opposite—that he isn't a top tier player. I happen to agree that he falls just short of the first tier. Though second tier = great. We might be witnessing Jaylen Brown's own ascension to that second tier these playoffs.

Though, if you're including availability as a metric of overall player value (which I think you should, to an extent), I'd probably slot Tatum in at #5, over Embiid.

[Tyler COLEk]

Exactly this. And nowhere near Luka.

Great player. Needs a killer like Brown with him plus a great cast.

The notion that Brown is a "killer" is brand new. As in, born the past week or two. Check out his performance in the ECF last season. The narrative around him last offseason was questioning whether he was worth a max deal.

I also think saying Tatum needs a "killer plus a great cast" is an ironic criticism to include the same post where you say he's nowhere near Luka. How are these finals going for Luka? Seems like he might need a better cast.

[BM1090]

Where did this idea come from that Tatum isn't a great player?

I think it's people arguing minor differences in opinion more than anything. I think he's overrated as a top 5, all-nba guy. I don't like watching him play. He drifts and settles too much. It rarely feels like he's controlling a game. I've watched every Celtics playoff game and he's maddening often.

Then add in that Jaylen Brown tends to outperform him offensively in the playoffs from an efficiency standpoint with similar counting stats, while also defending the opposing team's best offensive player, and people have been questioning how good JT really is.

But even as someone with a lower opinion of his game, he's undoubtedly a top 10 guy. He's excellent. It's really just an argument about if JT is a top 5 or top 10 player, even if the people arguing don't really realize it.

EDIT: I see Wades beat me to it.

[BM1090]

The media pushed the exact opposite—that he isn't a top tier player. I happen to agree that he falls just short of the first tier. Though second tier = great. We might be witnessing Jaylen Brown's own ascension to that second tier these playoffs.

Though, if you're including availability as a metric of overall player value (which I think you should, to an extent), I'd probably slot Tatum in at #5, over Embiid.

Jaylen Brown has been better than JT in these playoffs in every series. I know 16 games doesn't change everything that's happened in their careers, but I do think it's clear that in these playoffs JB has been better than JT on both ends. But is more accomplished, for sure.

And we must follow different media members. Everything I've seen is talking about him as a top 4-5 guy in the league and I just don't see it.

[BM1090]

Maybe the knee is contributing, but conditioning is a legit issue for him. Maybe the only thing holding him back from being the clear best player in basketball.

Agreed here. Get healthy, get in better shape and he could be #1 next year. I think he does have a way to go to pass Jokic, but he's capable of it.

He has to fix his attitude, too. Though I don't think it's as big of a problem as it's portrayed to be.

[Tyler COLEk]

Tyler, you probably hear it more because you follow the Celtics. I don't think "Tatum isn't that good" is  much of a national viewpoint.

When the opposing coach in the NBA Finals goes out of his way to diminish the guy, that will resonate with some who don't follow the game that closely. Nevertheless, the national media votes him All-Pro every year.

I also have no clue why some might dislike Tatum. I don't know him, but he seems like a decent enough guy.

I'm actually not a Celtics fan, nor do I follow any Boston or Celtics media. My partner is a big fan and watches almost all of their games. Frankly I enjoy watching because they're a special team and have similarities to MU in how they approach offense and culture.

Regardless, I don't mean to overstate the prominence of the Tatum criticism—I think it's very new and I only replied because it made it into this thread. It mostly made the national media for a few days after the ECF because Zach Lowe made a public proclamation he wasn't a top five player.

[PGsHeroes32]

The notion that Brown is a "killer" is brand new. As in, born the past week or two. Check out his performance in the ECF last season. The narrative around him last offseason was questioning whether he was worth a max deal.

I also think saying Tatum needs a "killer plus a great cast" is an ironic criticism to include the same post where you say he's nowhere near Luka. How are these finals going for Luka? Seems like he might need a better cast.

Yeah he needs a better cast. He doesn't need the Celtics cast

You got some weird bars on for Tatum then make insane comps.

The mavs without Luka are legit a bottom 5 team in the NBA at best.

The Celtics without Tatum are still competing for home court in round 1 of the playoffs. It's a laughable comp.

Last night was a perfect example. The mavs were lost anytime Luka wasn't on the court. Brown went dog mode without Tatum and Celtics were fine.

Brown has the mentality.

And Tatum isn't in the same stratosphere as luka

[Tyler COLEk]

Jaylen Brown has been better than JT in these playoffs in every series. I know 16 games doesn't change everything that's happened in their careers, but I do think it's clear that in these playoffs JB has been better than JT on both ends. But is more accomplished, for sure.

And we must follow different media members. Everything I've seen is talking about him as a top 4-5 guy in the league and I just don't see it.

I don't disagree—Brown has been sensational. He earned ECF MVP and he's even more of a clear favorite for Finals MVP. JB has never played this well in his career and deserves all the credit he has coming to him.

Just to stoke the argument about top five a bit, here's my top ten. Thinking of this as whom I'd most like on my NBA team in the 2024-25 season, not necessarily who "deserves it" based solely on past accomplishment.

1). Nikola Jokic
2). Giannis Antetokounmpo
3). Luka Doncic
4). Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
5). Jayson Tatum
6). Joel Embiid
7). Victor Wembanyama
8). Jalen Brunson
9). Anthony Edwards
10). Kevin Durant

Deciding those last couple spots was really difficult. AD, LeBron, Steph, and Kawhi are all right there, but age/projected availability hurt them. Sabonis and maybe even JB could have a claim as well.

Pretty tough to decide 2-4 as well, those guys are a pretty solid tier for me. The Wemby placement may seem extreme, but I think he probably enters the MVP conversation his second season.

[Tyler COLEk]

Yeah he needs a better cast. He doesn't need the Celtics cast

You got some weird bars on for Tatum then make insane comps.

The mavs without Luka are legit a bottom 5 team in the NBA at best.

The Celtics without Tatum are still competing for home court in round 1 of the playoffs. It's a laughable comp.

Last night was a perfect example. The mavs were lost anytime Luka wasn't on the court. Brown went dog mode without Tatum and Celtics were fine.

Brown has the mentality.

And Tatum isn't in the same stratosphere as luka

Brown didn't have "the mentality" until this postseason. That's brand new, and I'm not at all confident he'll maintain it or that Tatum won't have it next time around.

Of course agree that the Celtics cast is better than the Mavs. I don't think the post-deadline Mavs would be a "bottom five" NBA team without Luka, but they would not be good. I think Luka has the unique trait to be able to carry an entire offense. For me, he needs to improve his defense and conditioning to be considered in another "stratosphere" as Tatum.

[BM1090]

Brown didn't have "the mentality" until this postseason. That's brand new, and I'm not at all confident he'll maintain it or that Tatum won't have it next time around.

Of course agree that the Celtics cast is better than the Mavs. I don't think the post-deadline Mavs would be a "bottom five" NBA team without Luka, but they would not be good. I think Luka has the unique trait to be able to carry an entire offense. For me, he needs to improve his defense and conditioning to be considered in another "stratosphere" as Tatum.

We've seen glimpses of the mentality, though. Game 2 against the Bucks in 2022 comes to mind. Of course, Tatum had the brilliant game 6 as well.

[MuggsyB]

The most versatile defender in the NBA?  Have you not watched his teammate Jrue Holiday?  Not to mention Giannis, Jimmy Butler, AD, Bam, OG, Evan Mobley, Draymond, Thybulle, Kawhi, Paul George....

Brown hasn't made a single All Defense Team (First or Second) in his career.  He's a good defender.  But he's not close to as good as you're claiming he is.

With all due respect , I don't think that means diddly squat.  Minnesota has a 3 time DPY,  another 1st teamer, and they literally couldn't guard Dallas.  Holiday and White are excellent defenders, but Brown is much longer and heavier.  The guy consistently plays great defense both on and off the ball.  And he's doing this while exterting a lot of energy offensively as well.  Doncic has not had good 4th Q's in this series.  At all btw.  Brown is a big reason why.

[MuggsyB]

I don't disagree—Brown has been sensational. He earned ECF MVP and he's even more of a clear favorite for Finals MVP. JB has never played this well in his career and deserves all the credit he has coming to him.

Just to stoke the argument about top five a bit, here's my top ten. Thinking of this as whom I'd most like on my NBA team in the 2024-25 season, not necessarily who "deserves it" based solely on past accomplishment.

1). Nikola Jokic
2). Giannis Antetokounmpo
3). Luka Doncic
4). Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
5). Jayson Tatum
6). Joel Embiid
7). Victor Wembanyama
8). Jalen Brunson
9). Anthony Edwards
10). Kevin Durant

Deciding those last couple spots was really difficult. AD, LeBron, Steph, and Kawhi are all right there, but age/projected availability hurt them. Sabonis and maybe even JB could have a claim as well.

Pretty tough to decide 2-4 as well, those guys are a pretty solid tier for me. The Wemby placement may seem extreme, but I think he probably enters the MVP conversation his second season.

Ja Morant?

[The Sultan]

Ja Morant?

Nope. Not now.

[Tyler COLEk]

Nope. Not now.

Agreed. No reason from a talent perspective he shouldn't be in the mix, but he needs to find a way to stay on the court and realize his potential.

[Jockey]

Sam needs to write a letter to Luka at halftime asking him to stop abusing him.

[tower912]

Sam is going to get a ring.

[Jockey]

Sam is going to get a ring.

Will it come with an asterisk?

[MU82]

Sam's gonna get mucho garbage-time PT in this barn-burner.

Heck, maybe even OMax will get to play.

[Tyler COLEk]

Good point about O-Max, let's get him in there!

[MU82]

He's playing; came in with about 5 1/2 minutes to play. Had his first shot blocked. Had a nice assist on a teammate's basket. Hasn't fallen down yet.

[Tyler COLEk]

A couple MONSTER rebounds from O-Max.