2023-24 NBA Thread

[Tyler COLEk]

Right. But my point is that these playoffs are not really a great example of Mazulla's in-game coaching acumen. He may have grown into the role, but they haven't gotten a great test from anyone.

I agree he'll still have more to prove, but if the Celtics beat the Mavericks that's a big test passed. In my view, the Celtics' defensive strategy has been the difference in the series so far.

This point is more tangential, but I also disagree with the consensus that the West is so much better than the East, e.g. I think the Knicks and Pacers are pretty similar level teams to the Mavericks and Timberwolves. Yes, the Celtics ran into some key opponent injuries but they also missed a key player themselves, arguably the one with the least replaceable skill set on their team.

[The Sultan]

Stevens did a brilliant job constructing that team too. Finally pulling the trigger on trading Smart was a really good decision.

[MU82]

I agree he'll still have more to prove, but if the Celtics beat the Mavericks that's a big test passed. In my view, the Celtics' defensive strategy has been the difference in the series so far.

This point is more tangential, but I also disagree with the consensus that the West is so much better than the East, e.g. I think the Knicks and Pacers are pretty similar level teams to the Mavericks and Timberwolves. Yes, the Celtics ran into some key opponent injuries but they also missed a key player themselves, arguably the one with the least replaceable skill set on their team.

Nah, the West is quite a bit better than the East. And the healthy West teams were miles better than the banged-up East teams the Celtics got to face.

[Tyler COLEk]

Stevens did a brilliant job constructing that team too. Finally pulling the trigger on trading Smart was a really good decision.

More than any other one person, Stevens deserves the credit for the Celtics success. Tremendous roster building.

[Tyler COLEk]

Nah, the West is quite a bit better than the East. And the healthy West teams were miles better than the banged-up East teams the Celtics got to face.

I keep seeing this repeated - I just don't agree. I think the Mavs and Wolves are severely overrated. Both were good-not-great NBA teams propped up by extreme playoff recency bias. The Clippers and Suns also overrated - both with deep flaws in their rosters. Love the Thunder, but inexperience predictably was the end of them.

I think the Nuggets were still the best team in the West and would have made for the most competitive Finals. Unfortunately, they laid an egg in a nightmare matchup. I couldn't see anybody else in the conference competing with the Celtics in a seven game series.

I'll give the edge to the West in overall quality of depth. But among the top 5-6, I really don't see much of a disparity. Especially with the Celtics balancing things as the clear top dog in the NBA.

[MU82]

We disagree, and that's ok.

[Tyler COLEk]

We disagree, and that's ok.

Agreed!

[tower912]

Darvin Ham returning to the Bucks.

[wadesworld]

I agree he'll still have more to prove, but if the Celtics beat the Mavericks that's a big test passed. In my view, the Celtics' defensive strategy has been the difference in the series so far.

This point is more tangential, but I also disagree with the consensus that the West is so much better than the East, e.g. I think the Knicks and Pacers are pretty similar level teams to the Mavericks and Timberwolves. Yes, the Celtics ran into some key opponent injuries but they also missed a key player themselves, arguably the one with the least replaceable skill set on their team.

If you don't think the Mavs can compete at any position (which is wild given that the Mavs backcourt is far and away better than the C's, and Jrue Holiday is my favorite athlete of all time) and you think the Mavs are horribly overrated (you should check what they've done since the trade deadline), then wouldn't the talent gap be "the difference in the series so far?"

The C's took care of home court advantage.  They should win the title, but claiming this is a complete mismatch after 2 games in Boston is a bit premature.  Luka is the best player in the series, and Kyrie has games where he will be the 2nd best player in the series.  That gives you a chance in any game.

Also LOL at thinking the PACERS or banged up Knicks are on the same level as the Mavs and Wolves.  That is almost as crazy as thinking Joe Mazula is a good coach.  He's Wojo.  Rely on your talent to win you games.  Fortunately for him, he's not in charge of putting the talent together.

[lawdog77]

If you don't think the Mavs can compete at any position (which is wild given that the Mavs backcourt is far and away better than the C's, and Jrue Holiday is my favorite athlete of all time) and you think the Mavs are horribly overrated (you should check what they've done since the trade deadline), then wouldn't the talent gap be "the difference in the series so far?"

The C's took care of home court advantage.  They should win the title, but claiming this is a complete mismatch after 2 games in Boston is a bit premature.  Luka is the best player in the series, and Kyrie has games where he will be the 2nd best player in the series.  That gives you a chance in any game.

Also LOL at thinking the PACERS or banged up Knicks are on the same level as the Mavs and Wolves.  That is almost as crazy as thinking Joe Mazula is a good coach.  He's Wojo.  Rely on your talent to win you games.  Fortunately for him, he's not in charge of putting the talent together.

I have been told on here that NBA coaches can run circles around NCAA coaches, so Mazula must be a genious. Both he and Jason Kidd.

[wadesworld]

I have been told on here that NBA coaches can run circles around NCAA coaches, so Mazula must be a genious. Both he and Jason Kidd.

They're probably much better than a large majority of college coaches.  But Mazula is not a good NBA coach.

[Tyler COLEk]

If you don't think the Mavs can compete at any position (which is wild given that the Mavs backcourt is far and away better than the C's, and Jrue Holiday is my favorite athlete of all time) and you think the Mavs are horribly overrated (you should check what they've done since the trade deadline), then wouldn't the talent gap be "the difference in the series so far?"

The C's took care of home court advantage.  They should win the title, but claiming this is a complete mismatch after 2 games in Boston is a bit premature.  Luka is the best player in the series, and Kyrie has games where he will be the 2nd best player in the series.  That gives you a chance in any game.

Also LOL at thinking the PACERS or banged up Knicks are on the same level as the Mavs and Wolves.  That is almost as crazy as thinking Joe Mazula is a good coach.  He's Wojo.  Rely on your talent to win you games.  Fortunately for him, he's not in charge of putting the talent together.

The defensive strategy being the "difference" was not the best way to put it. Perhaps better described as the most impactful coaching in the serious so far.

I increasingly don't think terms like "backcourt" matter anymore, especially with players like Luka. But to match your incredulity, I'm stupefied that anybody could be watching this series and believe that Kyrie is "far and away" better than Jrue Holiday. That's not an attempt to extrapolate sweeping conclusions from two games, it's that those two games exemplify why Kyrie is not on some other tier than Holiday. Is Kyrie a much better scorer, finisher, ball handler? Obviously. Is Jrue a much better defender? Obviously. For reasons that don't involve their tangible skill sets, I would take Jrue over Kyrie straight up, which is probably a minority position. But that's certainly not some fringe take. We're talking about two very likely Hall of Famers.

You've seized on some hyperbole in my post ("cannot match up at virtually any position"), so I'll flesh out my positions on specific players in the series:

Luka vs Tatum: Doncic is the best player in the series, but isn't worlds better than Jayson Tatum. He's already one of the greatest scorers in NBA history but a mediocre defender, to assess it generously. Tatum is the second best player in the series. Very good all around player, impacts the game in multiple ways offensively, good defender.

Derrick White vs Kyrie: Kyrie has the edge as an historically great ballhandler and finisher. Excellent scorer, good passer. Fine defender. Has been outplayed by Derrick White through two games. White is a good facilitator who doesn't have a lot of pressure on him to make plays because his teammates are so skilled. Elite defender at the PG position. Historically great blocking guard.

Jaylen Brown vs. PJ Washington: Here's where the absurd mismatches start. Brown is the third best player in the series. Well-rounded offensive game, sensational athlete especially in transition. Very good defender. PJ Washington is a good NBA roleplayer. Good shooter, solid-but-not-great defender. He's a starter on most NBA teams, but a below average starter on a Finals team.

Porzingis vs. Lively: Again, c'mon. Porzingis is a offensive unicorn, able to score from all levels. Plus rim protector. Lively is a promising rookie. Good rim protector. Limited offensive skill set at this stage in his career.

Jrue vs. Derrick Jones: The drumbeat rolls on. Jrue is an elite on-ball defender that wins at the highest level. He's also a well-rounded scorer who's boasted great efficiency on a team where he's the fourth of fifth option. Derrick Jones is another solid NBA role player. Good defender, passable offensive game. He's a fringy NBA starter, and certainly not someone to lean in on the NBA Finals.

I'll also take Horford, Pritchard, and Hauser (collectively) over Gafford, Kleber, Green, Hardway, Exum.

The battle of the top twos is close. If you want to take Doncic and Kyrie over Tatum and Brown, that's fine (though I'd disagree). The problem for the Mavericks is that the Celtics have the next three best players in the series, and it isn't close. The talent disparity past the top duos is extreme. I can't see this series going past five games. Frankly I wish that weren't true, because I'd just like to see a competitive series as a basketball fan.

[Tyler COLEk]

Also LOL at thinking the PACERS or banged up Knicks are on the same level as the Mavs and Wolves.  That is almost as crazy as thinking Joe Mazula is a good coach.  He's Wojo.  Rely on your talent to win you games.  Fortunately for him, he's not in charge of putting the talent together.

I'm also stupefied by this take. The Wolves were widely and correctly understood to be a deeply flawed team despite a talented roster before they squeaked past the Nuggets. Then ESPN flipped a switch in everyone's brain and they became a mythical, exalted group after that one series. They were the clear choice to come out of the west, maybe the best team in the NBA! And then they got dogwalked by the Mavs. Shocking that KAT didn't play up to his talent or physical ability or that Rudy Gobert's game didn't translate to a competitive playoff series. Can we go back to what we'd all agreed upon before that Nuggets series, please?

We're seeing the Mavs exposed before our very eyes in this series. I'll let Boston do the talking there. It's nonstop clamoring about the Celtics' easy path, but it's the Mavs who have beaten a terribly flawed and aging Clippers team, the teenage Thunder, and the Most Overrated Team in NBA History the 2023-24 T-Wolves.

Let's see what happens in the Finals from here. And that same principle can stand for Mazzulla (spell check plz). Plenty to criticize through two seasons, but if you think he's Wojo you don't know ball. I think most are just confused and upset about his press conference affect.

[PGsHeroes32]

The defensive strategy being the "difference" was not the best way to put it. Perhaps better described as the most impactful coaching in the serious so far.

I increasingly don't think terms like "backcourt" matter anymore, especially with players like Luka. But to match your incredulity, I'm stupefied that anybody could be watching this series and believe that Kyrie is "far and away" better than Jrue Holiday. That's not an attempt to extrapolate sweeping conclusions from two games, it's that those two games exemplify why Kyrie is not on some other tier than Holiday. Is Kyrie a much better scorer, finisher, ball handler? Obviously. Is Jrue a much better defender? Obviously. For reasons that don't involve their tangible skill sets, I would take Jrue over Kyrie straight up, which is probably a minority position. But that's certainly not some fringe take. We're talking about two very likely Hall of Famers.

You've seized on some hyperbole in my post ("cannot match up at virtually any position"), so I'll flesh out my positions on specific players in the series:

Luka vs Tatum: Doncic is the best player in the series, but isn't worlds better than Jayson Tatum. He's already one of the greatest scorers in NBA history but a mediocre defender, to assess it generously. Tatum is the second best player in the series. Very good all around player, impacts the game in multiple ways offensively, good defender.

Derrick White vs Kyrie: Kyrie has the edge as an historically great ballhandler and finisher. Excellent scorer, good passer. Fine defender. Has been outplayed by Derrick White through two games. White is a good facilitator who doesn't have a lot of pressure on him to make plays because his teammates are so skilled. Elite defender at the PG position. Historically great blocking guard.

Jaylen Brown vs. PJ Washington: Here's where the absurd mismatches start. Brown is the third best player in the series. Well-rounded offensive game, sensational athlete especially in transition. Very good defender. PJ Washington is a good NBA roleplayer. Good shooter, solid-but-not-great defender. He's a starter on most NBA teams, but a below average starter on a Finals team.

Porzingis vs. Lively: Again, c'mon. Porzingis is a offensive unicorn, able to score from all levels. Plus rim protector. Lively is a promising rookie. Good rim protector. Limited offensive skill set at this stage in his career.

Jrue vs. Derrick Jones: The drumbeat rolls on. Jrue is an elite on-ball defender that wins at the highest level. He's also a well-rounded scorer who's boasted great efficiency on a team where he's the fourth of fifth option. Derrick Jones is another solid NBA role player. Good defender, passable offensive game. He's a fringy NBA starter, and certainly not someone to lean in on the NBA Finals.

I'll also take Horford, Pritchard, and Hauser (collectively) over Gafford, Kleber, Green, Hardway, Exum.

The battle of the top twos is close. If you want to take Doncic and Kyrie over Tatum and Brown, that's fine (though I'd disagree). The problem for the Mavericks is that the Celtics have the next three best players in the series, and it isn't close. The talent disparity past the top duos is extreme. I can't see this series going past five games. Frankly I wish that weren't true, because I'd just like to see a competitive series as a basketball fan.

Maybe not "worlds" better but Luka is considerably better than Tatum. Tatum isnt even a true alpha much less in Luka league. Hes very talented and can win a title on a stacked team like this Cs team. But the Mavs would be play in at best if you swapped Tatum for Luka on that roster

[wadesworld]

I'm also stupefied by this take. The Wolves were widely and correctly understood to be a deeply flawed team despite a talented roster before they squeaked past the Nuggets. Then ESPN flipped a switch in everyone's brain and they became a mythical, exalted group after that one series. They were the clear choice to come out of the west, maybe the best team in the NBA! And then they got dogwalked by the Mavs. Shocking that KAT didn't play up to his talent or physical ability or that Rudy Gobert's game didn't translate to a competitive playoff series. Can we go back to what we'd all agreed upon before that Nuggets series, please?

We're seeing the Mavs exposed before our very eyes in this series. I'll let Boston do the talking there. It's nonstop clamoring about the Celtics' easy path, but it's the Mavs who have beaten a terribly flawed and aging Clippers team, the teenage Thunder, and the Most Overrated Team in NBA History the 2023-24 T-Wolves.

Let's see what happens in the Finals from here. And that same principle can stand for Mazzulla (spell check plz). Plenty to criticize through two seasons, but if you think he's Wojo you don't know ball. I think most are just confused and upset about his press conference affect.

Lol damn you're right now that I think about it. Clearly a good team would've simply had their way with the paper tigers that are the Nuggets. Err...

The TWolves spanked the Suns and beat the defending champions. The Pacers went to 6 with a completely Giannis-less, partially Dame-less Bucks and went to 7 with the Knicks who had...Brunson and I couldn't even tell you who played night to night for the Knicks with all of their injuries.

But yeah. Pacers are definitely on the same tier as the Mavs and TWolves. Funny that you claim others don't know ball when you make statements like that and that the Eastern Conference was as good as the Western Conference.

We'll see how the rest of the series goes. The C's should win and have been the best team all year. But they've won 2 home games.

[MuggsyB]

Boston has 4 guys that can switch and guard multiple positions.  And Porzingas is a a capable defender as well, and not just protecting the paint.  The defensive versatility of Boston is unlike any team in the NBA.  That's why they can shoot a poor percentage and still win. 

[Tyler COLEk]

Luka is a very unique talent and undoubtedly the best alpha scorer in the league. That's different from saying he's the best player in the league.

I would agree that if the Mavs had Tatum they probably would've been on the play-in line, given they only finished a few games above #7 anyway. Though I don't think there's any chance they'd miss the postseason with Tatum. JT has a fair amount left to prove in the NBA, but I think he gets unfairly criticized for being on a good team. He'd be a higher volume scorer on almost any other team. For me, what's left for him to prove is toughness and game-closing in high pressure spots. I do expect him to have a couple monster games ahead of him in this Finals.

[Tyler COLEk]

Lol damn you're right now that I think about it. Clearly a good team would've simply had their way with the paper tigers that are the Nuggets. Err...

The TWolves spanked the Suns and beat the defending champions. The Pacers went to 6 with a completely Giannis-less, partially Dame-less Bucks and went to 7 with the Knicks who had...Brunson and I couldn't even tell you who played night to night for the Knicks with all of their injuries.

But yeah. Pacers are definitely on the same tier as the Mavs and TWolves. Funny that you claim others don't know ball when you make statements like that and that the Eastern Conference was as good as the Western Conference.

We'll see how the rest of the series goes. The C's should win and have been the best team all year. But they've won 2 home games.

The Suns: a super talented and hideously constructed big three with zero roster depth. Not a great team in the slightest. The Nuggets: a remarkably favorable matchup for the T-Wolves. Real credit no doubt due. I repeat: insane, sweeping claims made about this team after this very short playoff run. Let's see what this roster does in the years ahead, should it stay intact.

I'll take the Pacers (with Tyrese) over the Suns seven days a week. The Wolves have the edge on the Pacers, but it isn't some huge gulf. I cannot stress this enough: The Minnesota Timberwolves were not a great basketball team.

[wadesworld]

The Suns: a super talented and hideously constructed big three with zero roster depth. Not a great team in the slightest. The Nuggets: a remarkably favorable matchup for the T-Wolves. Real credit no doubt due. I repeat: insane, sweeping claims made about this team after this very short playoff run. Let's see what this roster does in the years ahead, should it stay intact.

I'll take the Pacers (with Tyrese) over the Suns seven days a week. The Wolves have the edge on the Pacers, but it isn't some huge gulf. I cannot stress this enough: The Minnesota Timberwolves were not a great basketball team.

It's a ginormous gap between the Wolves and the Pacers. I'd hope we could agree that while the Suns are flawed, KD, Booker, Beal, and any 2 NBA players are better than Khris, Dame for a couple games, Brook, Bobby, Pat C, and Pat B. And the Bucks were way more competitive than the Suns in those respective series.

[Tyler COLEk]

It's a ginormous gap between the Wolves and the Pacers. I'd hope we could agree that while the Suns are flawed, KD, Booker, Beal, and any 2 NBA players are better than Khris, Dame for a couple games, Brook, Bobby, Pat C, and Pat B. And the Bucks were way more competitive than the Suns in those respective series.

I think a seven game series with IND vs MIN would be a very close one. You don't agree, and that's fine.

As for Suns vs. depleted Bucks, sure I'd take the Suns. But I didn't contend the Celtics didn't have a relatively easy path. I contended the western conference and the Mavs path have been highly overrated.

[The Sultan]

RIP Jerry West

Not only one of the greatest players of all time, but arguably even a better general manager, winning 8 titles in that role.

[MU82]

RIP Jerry West

Not only one of the greatest players of all time, but arguably even a better general manager, winning 8 titles in that role.

Truly a giant of the game. He will be missed.

[MuggsyB]

Massive loss for the game of basketball. 

[cheebs09]

RIP Jerry West

Not only one of the greatest players of all time, but arguably even a better general manager, winning 8 titles in that role.

He wasn't there when they won, but he set up the Shaq/Kobe team for their three championships as well.

[The Sultan]

He wasn't there when they won, but he set up the Shaq/Kobe team for their three championships as well.

He was there for the first one.

And I was wrong. He won six with the Lakers and was with the Warriors organization when they won two of their championships.