The War in Russia

[Lennys Tap]

Would be MSNBC's highest-rated show ever!

As exciting and newsworthy as when Geraldo Rivera opened Al Capone's vault!

[lurch91]

Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up last Russia's last Czar.  There's a fine line to tread here for Putin going forward, if "Putin's Chef", and long time "friend", can run him out of Moscow he may be his most vulnerable ever.

[The Sultan]

I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

[Uncle Rico]

I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

This is the tragedy of the Russian people.  Centuries old going back to the Tsars.  The people are mere cannon fodder to the oligarchs.  Always have been

[MuggsyB]

I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false.  Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos.  This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power.   Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership. 

[Scoop Snoop]

I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

Did you forget to add "savvy" between strategic and genius? 

I have always been skeptical of Russia's willingness to join Europe as a partner rather than as a brutal, bullying and threatening force. When the Iron Curtain collapsed in '89-90, I was really hoping (but not expecting) to be proven wrong. As you pointed out, they have both the resources and an educated society, yet stubbornly continue to return to a MO that has failed.

I see no good coming out of the most recent events, and unlike apparently many here, I think this is far from over. Progozhin's decision to stop his advance on Moscow as very possibly strategic. Rather than "Russians fighting Russians", he may be trying to get some government military units to join with him. I really do not think for a moment that he has attained all his goals, whatever they are.

[tower912]

Agreed.  It isn't over.  The ripples and ramifications of this are going to be ongoing.

[lawdog77]

If I were Сергей Шойгу, I would be worried.

[pbiflyer]

Russian military

2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia

[The Sultan]

Russian military

2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia

But I thought it was made up of the greatest of verile, many men? 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

How they held off the Nazis in WWII is a minor miracle

[tower912]

Weather.  Germany also fighting the Allies.

[The Sultan]

Weather.  Germany also fighting the Allies.

Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

[lurch91]

Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

And having 27 million disposable souls.

[Uncle Rico]

Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

Terrible decision making as well.  Methinks if the Wehrmacht had been in charge completely, results would have been vastly different

[Lennys Tap]

The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false.  Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos.  This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power.   Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership.

If Russia is indeed a "well resourced and educated society"(and I believe it is) I think your conclusion (that there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership is concerned) seems overly pessimistic. I can't believe that every potential leader in a well educated country is worse than Putin.

[pbiflyer]

And having 27 million disposable souls.

This, mainly this.

[warriorchick]

Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up as Russia's last next Czar. 

FIFY

[MU82]

Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.

[MuggsyB]

And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.

It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for.  And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950.  Winston foresaw everything. 

[The Sultan]

It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for.  And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950.  Winston foresaw everything. 

That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.

[MuggsyB]

That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.

Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier.  We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening. 

[The Sultan]

Say that to those who died I'm the Cultural Revolution or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier. 

How? By invading Russia and China? By dropping nukes all over the place?

I'm unconvinced (to put it lightly) that killing a bunch of people to save them from dying another way would have been an effective foreign policy strategy.  Not to mention that it would have been a political non-starter.

[Uncle Rico]

Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier.  We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening.

That's not realpolitik. 

WWII was exhausting to all Americans and costly on every front.  The idea we'd just roll along to take on the Soviets doesn't match the reality of what was the situation.

When the European war ended, America was still fighting in the Pacific.  Secondly, the idea of America the aggressor in September of 1945 against who was their ally in the war?  That's incredibly naive to think that was something that could happen.

There's no way to know what would have happened had America marched to Moscow.  What you can do is, understand the history of the Cold War and how it was mutually beneficial to both antagonists.  American history in the Cold War isn't peaches and cream when it comes to how we handled ourselves abroad.

As for stopping the Holocaust, America was in no position militarily to do anything about it.  Any attempt at war with Germany prior to our entry would have been futile

[MuggsyB]

We'll agree to disagree.  Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.