The Future of Cities

[jesmu84]

Hards... having a child is a choice... so is taking out student debt.  If you're not cool with the economics, you need not do it.

Having a child has always been a choice. But 50 years ago, having an unplanned/unexpected child wasn't the economic hurdle it is now.

[real chili 83]

Cool story bro.  Average Salary in Milwaukee Public Schools was $66,000.  In rural Poynette, WI they're catching around $50,000.  Do you think that is enough money to live on as a college graduate?  Would you sign up for that?  Plus teachers are 100% treated like crap.  They're subjected to a hostile work environment where their work is criticized non stop, they're accused of misconduct, and literally have a chance at being shot dead. 

https://publicstaffreports.dpi.wi.gov/PubStaffReport/Public/PublicReport/TeacherSalaryReport  You can look up any district in Wisconsin if you choose.

Libertyville and Vernon Hills are wealthy suburbs.  People MOVE to those places FOR their schools.  You named two places that teachers DREAM of teaching.  Well unfortunately, there is this thing called reality and in the United States of America we still have to educate every student.  Everyone that walks through the door.  Every district has different needs, and different challenges.

Also, respectfully, you're old.  You grew up in a time where parents had time to raise their children and spend time with them.  You clearly came from an an extremely privileged background.  Not everyone has that time or has that ability to impact their child's lives.  Even the children you've raised were raised in a different period of time.  This constant harping from people about how 'it starts at home' is so incredibly stupid.  How can anything start at home when the parents and more often single parent can't afford to pay for necessities.  Raising a child in 2023 is reported to be around $310,000.  In 1980 the cost was approx a quarter of that.  In that period of time real wages have not increased four fold.  So expecting a parent to raise a child as you have or you were raised is not as simple as 'it starts at home'.  Not every parent has a spouse.  Not every parent works a 9-5 job.  Not every parent has family near them to help with child care.  And also in reality, many of those parents who are trying their best alone come home from work exhausted.  Again, the world has changed drastically since you've raised your children.

I could go on and on for hours about how your age is showing in your post, but I think by you get my point.

Bullsh1t with your characterization of most teachers.

I know tons of teachers who love or loved their jobs, retire extremely well, and are happy as a clam.

Bullsh1t.

[rocket surgeon]

Bullsh1t with your characterization of most teachers.

I know tons of teachers who love or loved their jobs, retire extremely well, and are happy as a clam.

Bullsh1t.

  i will second this chili.  i have tons of teachers as patients.  my kindergarten teacher is a patient plus many others throughout my school years.  yes, there are challenges, just as with most other professions, but most speak about the rewards. i've always said that i couldn't do the job that they do...that's why i don't.  same for nursing homes and many other areas of work. 

   if they were concerned with the pay, find something else that will pay what you need or want. 

[The Sultan]

Bullsh1t with your characterization of most teachers.

I know tons of teachers who love or loved their jobs, retire extremely well, and are happy as a clam.

Bullsh1t.

Say you're someone who hasn't talked to an actual teacher in 20 years without actually saying you haven't talked to a actual teacher in 20 years.

[Uncle Rico]

Say you're someone who hasn't talked to an actual teacher in 20 years without actually saying you haven't talked to a actual teacher in 20 years.

What do teachers have to complain about?  They're highly valued in this country. 

[Hards Alumni]

Hards... having a child is a choice... so is taking out student debt.  If you're not cool with the economics, you need not do it.

Thanks, I'm aware.  I have neither.

The Neoliberal society we all live in is predicated on replacement population growth at a minimum.  Is your solution to not have children?  Not take on debt?

[Hards Alumni]

Bullsh1t with your characterization of most teachers.

I know tons of teachers who love or loved their jobs, retire extremely well, and are happy as a clam.

Bullsh1t.

Yet, I have a family full of them.  And the retired ones would no longer recommend it to the young ones.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Brother Dgies,

All the things you have mentioned are dependent on #1 and the primary problem is we have the wrong vision and overall goals.  It starts with early childhood education.  I'm talking ages 2-5.  We should have a national goal that  learning to read before age 5 is mandatory or you can't enroll in kindergarten.

I used to tutor kids ages 12-17 in both reading/writing and math in Chicago and DC.  It's absolutely astounding that their skill levels are so behind.  As far as I can tell nothing has changed.  In lieu of this idea of free college what we should have is free or minimal cost early childhood education in our inner cities. 

It can be done with the right vision and right incentives to get high quality pre K teachers.  Everything starts with learning how to read.  We have failed our children and our entire educational system needs to be re-examined imo.  Start with one simple but vital goal.  For those that do not have special needs reading by age 5 has to be mandatory.  The two most important things that can be done for young children is learning how to swim and learning how to read.

I am very on board with your idea of increasing access to free or minimal cost early childhood education in all areas. It's something that is sorely needed. I agree that we should have a goal of children reading by age five, but I'm not sure about your "can't enroll in kindergarten" suggestion. Children who are behind on literacy need extra support, not to be punished. Maybe mandating some sort of supplemental reading program that can be completed in Kindergarten.

[dgies9156]

Cool story bro.  Average Salary in Milwaukee Public Schools was $66,000.  In rural Poynette, WI they're catching around $50,000.  Do you think that is enough money to live on as a college graduate?  Would you sign up for that?  Plus teachers are 100% treated like crap.  They're subjected to a hostile work environment where their work is criticized non stop, they're accused of misconduct, and literally have a chance at being shot dead. 

https://publicstaffreports.dpi.wi.gov/PubStaffReport/Public/PublicReport/TeacherSalaryReport  You can look up any district in Wisconsin if you choose.

Libertyville and Vernon Hills are wealthy suburbs.  People MOVE to those places FOR their schools.  You named two places that teachers DREAM of teaching.  Well unfortunately, there is this thing called reality and in the United States of America we still have to educate every student.  Everyone that walks through the door.  Every district has different needs, and different challenges.

Also, respectfully, you're old.  You grew up in a time where parents had time to raise their children and spend time with them.  You clearly came from an an extremely privileged background.  Not everyone has that time or has that ability to impact their child's lives.  Even the children you've raised were raised in a different period of time.  This constant harping from people about how 'it starts at home' is so incredibly stupid.  How can anything start at home when the parents and more often single parent can't afford to pay for necessities.  Raising a child in 2023 is reported to be around $310,000.  In 1980 the cost was approx a quarter of that.  In that period of time real wages have not increased four fold.  So expecting a parent to raise a child as you have or you were raised is not as simple as 'it starts at home'.  Not every parent has a spouse.  Not every parent works a 9-5 job.  Not every parent has family near them to help with child care.  And also in reality, many of those parents who are trying their best alone come home from work exhausted.  Again, the world has changed drastically since you've raised your children.

I could go on and on for hours about how your age is showing in your post, but I think by you get my point.

Oh good grief.

About the only thing you didn't say was that I was a 1 percenter (I'm not), a Trumper (also, no) and a comic book (Richie Rich) was written about me. Again, no.

If having parents that cared about you, that wanted the best for you and sacrificed for you and your brothers and sisters is old fashioned or privileged, then I'm guilty and God Help Me, I hope I was as good to my children as my parents were to me. As to education, my parents gave up a lot to send us to Catholic schools in Nashville and Marquette. Maybe, if my Dad was less successful, we might have gone to the University of Tennessee or Middle Tennessee State due to financial pressures, but we would have gone to college. Period. Because that's how you create a foundation for your children. Period. And we would have made the most of it.

There's a few people in Scoop who knew my parents and I suspect they'd tell you the same think I am -- they were great people who cared deeply about the people and the communities they lived in. That's not old fashioned or privileged. That's called being Catholic and respecting the Great Commandment, "Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..."

As to me being old, give me a break. Caring is ageless and at the core of good parenting. You do things because you care, not because you have the resources to do so. Sometimes the fight is harder than it should be, but as a parent you can't quit and make an excuse that the time or resources aren't there. If you believe that, you should never have had children.

My children were orphans who lived in conditions few Americans have ever seen. Both had severe learning disabilities. They were adopted in the late 1990s. Which means they were out of high school less than 10 years ago. Yes, Vernon Hiils and Libertyville are good school districts. But when you have teachers who don't want to teach your children, you have a battle on your hands -- which we did! The Middle School wanted to social promote one of my children who at one point was struggling. They thought we would be pushovers until, during an IEP session, we called them out and demanded more. We scared the hell out of them because we knew what they were doing and it forced them to act. The teachers and administrators weren't used to college educated parents they couldn't buffalo in an IEP session. That child has a college degree from an accredited national university.

That's called parenting.

Another child was warehoused in a Belarusian orphanage for 2.5 years. She couldn't speak in Russian much less English when we completed the adoption. These are leaning disabilities far beyond anything anyone else I ever knew had to confront. But our calling -- our vocation if you will -- was to raise her -- and we did. When a high school teacher, in front of my child, told her we were expecting too much from her and that we had to expect low achievement from her, I blew! The result was my child looked at me coming out the door of the school and said, "thank you, Dad." That child too, has a college degree.

That's called parenting!

Neither my wife nor I were perfect parents. Far from it! But we were and still are committed to our children. There's a lot of people in this world who just get by who feel exactly the same way. They were given a responsibility and wrapped themselves in it. They accepted the fact that they have an obligation and they do the best they can every day. I'm not saying we don't need pre-school and we don't need to work with at-risk children. My late mother, who designed a kindergarten curriculum that formed one basis for what's still used in Tennessee, would come back and haunt me if I said otherwise. But the schools can't be parents either.

As parents, my wife and I had some tough days with our children. But the way we handled it was something that became the core of the eulogy at my Father's funeral and is the basis for good parenting:

Never Give Up!

[Lennys Tap]

Oh good grief.

About the only thing you didn't say was that I was a 1 percenter (I'm not), a Trumper (also, no) and a comic book (Richie Rich) was written about me. Again, no.

If having parents that cared about you, that wanted the best for you and sacrificed for you and your brothers and sisters is old fashioned or privileged, then I'm guilty and God Help Me, I hope I was as good to my children as my parents were to me. As to education, my parents gave up a lot to send us to Catholic schools in Nashville and Marquette. Maybe, if my Dad was less successful, we might have gone to the University of Tennessee or Middle Tennessee State due to financial pressures, but we would have gone to college. Period. Because that's how you create a foundation for your children. Period. And we would have made the most of it.

There's a few people in Scoop who knew my parents and I suspect they'd tell you the same think I am -- they were great people who cared deeply about the people and the communities they lived in. That's not old fashioned or privileged. That's called being Catholic and respecting the Great Commandment, "Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..."

As to me being old, give me a break. Caring is ageless and at the core of good parenting. You do things because you care, not because you have the resources to do so. Sometimes the fight is harder than it should be, but as a parent you can't quit and make an excuse that the time or resources aren't there. If you believe that, you should never have had children.

My children were orphans who lived in conditions few Americans have ever seen. Both had severe learning disabilities. They were adopted in the late 1990s. Which means they were out of high school less than 10 years ago. Yes, Vernon Hiils and Libertyville are good school districts. But when you have teachers who don't want to teach your children, you have a battle on your hands -- which we did! The Middle School wanted to social promote one of my children who at one point was struggling. They thought we would be pushovers until, during an IEP session, we called them out and demanded more. We scared the hell out of them because we knew what they were doing and it forced them to act. The teachers and administrators weren't used to college educated parents they couldn't buffalo in an IEP session. That child has a college degree from an accredited national university.

That's called parenting.

Another child was warehoused in a Belarusian orphanage for 2.5 years. She couldn't speak in Russian much less English when we completed the adoption. These are leaning disabilities far beyond anything anyone else I ever knew had to confront. But our calling -- our vocation if you will -- was to raise her -- and we did. When a high school teacher, in front of my child, told her we were expecting too much from her and that we had to expect low achievement from her, I blew! The result was my child looked at me coming out the door of the school and said, "thank you, Dad." That child too, has a college degree.

That's called parenting!

Neither my wife nor I were perfect parents. Far from it! But we were and still are committed to our children. There's a lot of people in this world who just get by who feel exactly the same way. They were given a responsibility and wrapped themselves in it. They accepted the fact that they have an obligation and they do the best they can every day. I'm not saying we don't need pre-school and we don't need to work with at-risk children. My late mother, who designed a kindergarten curriculum that formed one basis for what's still used in Tennessee, would come back and haunt me if I said otherwise. But the schools can't be parents either.

As parents, my wife and I had some tough days with our children. But the way we handled it was something that became the core of the eulogy at my Father's funeral and is the basis for good parenting:

Never Give Up!

Some people talk the talk, others walk the walk. Brother dries, you know of what you speak. I'm proud to call you brother.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Thanks, I'm aware.  I have neither.

Praise Jesus.

[real chili 83]

Yet, I have a family full of them.  And the retired ones would no longer recommend it to the young ones.

I too have a family full of teachers. They love/loved the profession.

[real chili 83]

Say you're someone who hasn't talked to an actual teacher in 20 years without actually saying you haven't talked to a actual teacher in 20 years.

Huh?

[Pakuni]

I too have a family full of teachers. They love/loved the profession.

Every teacher I know - and I know some active teachers (not retirees) quite well - still loves teaching children.
But nearly everything else about the job has become worse - less support from parents, administrators and school board;,  the politicalization of what they teach; the incessant union-bashing; the excessive focus on standardized testing; frequent shifts in curriculum with little teacher input, etc.
A first-grade teacher I know recently had a student's grandmother approach at an open house and demand an explanation about what she's teaching about critical race theory.
I will say I've never heard these teachers complain about their compensation, but they're all from the suburbs and in the upper strata when it comes to that.

[The Sultan]

Every complaint I hear from teachers about compensation is always crouched in the working conditions that you mention Pak.

[real chili 83]

Who doesn't have a gripe about their job?

To characterize all teachers as holistically unhappy is patently false, and agenda driven, period.

One beef teachers have that I think is 100% legit is how Scott Walker undermined the teacher's union.  If change was needed, he should have done it differently. His method was absolutely wrong.

The insurance company that had a stranglehold on medical insurance contracts, WEA, had a clause that kept school districts from even shopping their insurance. Once Walker got the unions out, school districts got to shop their business and saved tons. 

So yes, change was needed.  But Walker was foolish for the tactics he used. He got what he deserved.

[The Sultan]

Who doesn't have a gripe about their job?

To characterize all teachers as holistically unhappy is patently false, and agenda driven, period.

One beef teachers have that I think is 100% legit is how Scott Walker undermined the teacher's union.  If change was needed, he should have done it differently. His method was absolutely wrong.

The insurance company that had a stranglehold on medical insurance contracts, WEA, had a clause that kept school districts from even shopping their insurance. Once Walker got the unions out, school districts got to shop their business and saved tons. 

So yes, change was needed.  But Walker was foolish for the tactics he used. He got what he deserved.

Yes. These clearly are just job gripes and you clearly aren't agenda driven. 🙄🙄🙄

[real chili 83]

Yes. These clearly are just job gripes and you clearly aren't agenda driven. 🙄🙄🙄

Lol. Pot, meet kettle.

[The Sultan]

Why do people think there has been a dramatic drop in the number of students enrolling in teacher education programs?

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/fewer-people-are-getting-teacher-degrees-prep-programs-sound-the-alarm/2022/03

Why do people think that public school districts that used to have their pick of job applicants, now will take pretty much anyone to fill a classroom DESPITE many of them decreasing in student population?

https://www.axios.com/2022/08/14/teacher-staffing-shortage-incentives-back-to-school

Why do you think teacher retirements have accelerated?  Pretty much every teacher I know who CAN retire has done so despite being nowhere near eligible to earn social security.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/01/1076943883/teachers-quitting-burnout

And the problem is going to get worse. Young teachers are quitting the profession early and finding other things to do. They are overworked, dealing with parents and lack mentors because they're either out the door or just too overworked.

To write off these trends as mere "job gripes" is insane.  There has been growing fundamental disrespect of the teaching profession going on for years. This isn't an "agenda." These are absolute facts.

[real chili 83]

 

Hope you didn't hurt yourself with all that "heavy lifting".

[The Sultan]

Hope you didn't hurt yourself with all that "heavy lifting".

Says the guy who uses the "but my friends and family are teachers" line.

[real chili 83]

Well, they are.

[The Sultan]

Well, they are.

Cool

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well, they are.

And they are anecdotes. You have been provided with anecdotes that show the opposite so at best that's a wash. You have now been provided with data that shows concerning trends, do you have any data that counters?

[real chili 83]

And they are anecdotes. You have been provided with anecdotes that show the opposite so at best that's a wash. You have now been provided with data that shows concerning trends, do you have any data that counters?

Data from Sultan. Whooopeeee