EV's

[MU82]

What are/were the empty promises?

Just about everything associated with the truck.

When it would be available, how much it would cost, what its range would be, how much it could tow, etc etc etc.

And others brought up Maverick. Another unfortunate Ford disappointment.

[GOO]

-- I made a post that fully explained the Hertz situation a bit ago. https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64282.msg1608863#msg1608863

-- Assuming one is using a "modern" EV, it will have ability to precondition a battery before DC fast charging. Therefore, it should never take "forever" to recharge, even to 100%

-- Are there "big electric advocates" here?

I don’t know that I’m an “advocate” but my experience with Teslas has been amazing. Can only compare it to the iPhones when they came out. Blown away both times. And how often do you buy something that keeps getting better and better for free? Continues to amaze - this should be the new standard for cars.

I don’t post often because there is just so much silly misinformation in this  threads, and I don’t get into meaningless debates on the internet.  And to correct some of the info takes too long, like this post.

But my opinion:
Ev’s save a lot of time. No stops at gas stations - that actually take about 10 minutes - pull off road get  to station, get in position, fuss with cards, wait, get back on road. Beyond annoying when the weather is bad. Versus seconds to step out of car and plug in at home.  I think people miss that you save time  with an EV if that is a concern.

Travel long distances: charge times of an hour As someone said above.  No, never. Superchargers. By the time I go to the bathroom I rarely wait at all and if I do not more than 5 minutes. Time bathroom breaks with charging. I’m stopping every couple of hours anyway.

Cold weather mileage could improve. Just like gas cars. And they have with a lot of models using heat pumps. Is a negative of EV when it gets really cold. Yet teslas are best selling car in some very cold countries like Sweden.

If one does long trips often, and doesn’t stop for breaks for bathrooms often, a gas vehicle would be better for them.

I think of the following:
1980s: Japanese cars come to America, better quality and gas mileage. The big 3 says they are junk, rice burners, etc. we know the opposite was true. Big 3 had to catch up on quality and really never had.

2000s: hybrids from Toyota. Big 3 misinformation campaigns. Batteries won’t last. Have to replace at 100k miles etc. literally articles that say a hummer is more efficient and environmentally friendly than a Prius (to get result they don’t say they assumed the Prius is junked at 100k miles the hummer gets 250k). We know the opposite is true. People still fear hybrids batteries will need to be replaced. And only ford domestically has decent hybrids.  Again US behind. 

Ev’s:  Big 3 media campaigns trash them. Then they think they can make them and stop trashing them and promote them. Now they realize they can’t make them profitably and are too far behind. The trashing will start again.


EV sales are likely to slowly improve until about 2025-2026 when the next wave of cheaper EVs hit and uptrend will continue when they are cheaper than gas cars without subsidies. Also  people are adopting hybrids more, and they will realize how much nicer they are with start stop engines, that batteries last, breaks don’t have to be replaced  etc.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I have no doubt that EVs will improve range, get less expensive and have better charging infrastructure in the future. But for how we use our vehicles, it’s just not for us quite yet.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I saw this read this week.  Overview of what's going on on next gen batteries and EV development.

https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-solid-state-ev-batteries-increased-range/amp/


Volkswagen and others look to solid-state EV batteries for increased range

A number of automakers are looking to build future electric vehicles (EVs) with solid-state batteries, which are expected to unlock increased energy density, faster charging, and crucially, longer driving ranges. With Tesla as the outlier in that it hasn’t announced any plans to develop solid-state batteries, automakers including Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, and many more have made investments in the sector, although products with the tech have yet to arrive.

As just one example, the U.S. startup company QuantumScape has landed partnerships with Volkswagen and at least six other automakers, saying its anode-less cell design can increase EV range from 350 miles to 400 or 500 miles (via Reuters). The figure represents a margin increase of 14 to 43 percent—though that’s down from prior estimates shared by the company of 50 to 80 percent.

Still, QuantumScape shared initial prototypes with Volkswagen in 2022, and the automaker said the solid-state battery samples could be used in an EV for up to 500,000 miles without any degradation and could be charged to 80 percent in 15 minutes.

Another example includes Toyota, which said last June that it reached a breakthrough in solid-state battery tech that it hoped would eventually let it make EVs with over 700 miles of range and charging times of just 10 minutes.

Despite this, the automaker said in November that it expects to produce more hydrogen-powered vehicles than solid-state EVs in 2030, highlighting the company’s continued focus on developing hydrogen fuel cell technology.

Honda is looking to add a test production line for solid-state batteries as soon as 2024, and the automaker expects to debut EVs with them by the latter part of this decade. In addition, the company invested in SES AI, with which the company hopes to jointly develop solid-state EV batteries.

Nissan also plans to debut an EV with pure solid-state batteries, which the automaker hopes to develop in-house and debut in EVs by 2028.

The list of companies investing in solid-state tech goes on, and it includes several automakers and suppliers such as Nio, BMW, CATL, U.S. startup Solid Power, LG Energy Solution, SK On, and still many more.

However, even with the many investments and support from several automakers looking to make EVs more efficient, it appears that any solid-state EVs are still years away.


What are your thoughts? Let me know at zach@teslarati.com, find me on X at @zacharyvisconti, or send your tips to us at tips@teslarati.com.

[GOO]

Another negative is those without home charging really should think twice before going ev. Charging on the go costs more.  The savings are not as great and would be a pain without home charging.

Plenty of battery developments. The incremental changes are also large over time.  I can see a future with cheaper smaller batteries, less range, but cheaper EVs with plenty of charging options.

[GB Warrior]

I'd say there's no downside to waiting a bit if you're on the fence. Battery tech will continue to explode, continued economies of scale etc etc.

Agree with above - if you don't have a home charger, an EV would be a pain in the ass. The charging stations are all different ecosystems and some states (Wisconsin) is a wasteland. Plus the public stations are prone to breakdowns and haven't scaled with EV demand.

[tower912]

The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga.    I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day.   I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for.   But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.

[jesmu84]

The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga.    I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day.   I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for.   But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.

Infrastructure in the US - whether new development (electric grid capacity for EVs) or old maintenance (roads, bridges, sewer/water, in-place electric) - is so so so bad. Our nation should be ashamed

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga.    I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day.   I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for.   But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.

I believe I've typed here before but the  Battery and EV Expos I regularly attend in Detroit and Stuttgart, what I always hear is "Remember, EVs are only at the Ford Model T stage compared to ICEs."

[Uncle Rico]

I believe I've typed here before but the  Battery and EV Expos I regularly attend in Detroit and Stuttgart, what I always hear is "Remember, EVs are only at the Ford Model T stage compared to ICEs."

Future generations won’t be beholden to driving ICEs either

[jesmu84]

Ford Lightning production info:

[MU82]

Ford Lightning production info:

Thanks for that, jes. Makes sense.

[MU82]

Ford Lightning production info:

Here's an interesting EV take on Seeking Alpha, headlined: Rivian: Thank You, Ford!

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4664025-rivian-thank-you-ford?mailingid=34083904&messageid=must_reads&serial=34083904.10508&utm_campaign=Must%2BReads%2Brecurring%2B2024-01-22&utm_content=seeking_alpha&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=must_reads

[muwarrior69]

I saw this read this week.  Overview of what's going on on next gen batteries and EV development.

https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-solid-state-ev-batteries-increased-range/amp/


Volkswagen and others look to solid-state EV batteries for increased range

A number of automakers are looking to build future electric vehicles (EVs) with solid-state batteries, which are expected to unlock increased energy density, faster charging, and crucially, longer driving ranges. With Tesla as the outlier in that it hasn’t announced any plans to develop solid-state batteries, automakers including Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, and many more have made investments in the sector, although products with the tech have yet to arrive.

As just one example, the U.S. startup company QuantumScape has landed partnerships with Volkswagen and at least six other automakers, saying its anode-less cell design can increase EV range from 350 miles to 400 or 500 miles (via Reuters). The figure represents a margin increase of 14 to 43 percent—though that’s down from prior estimates shared by the company of 50 to 80 percent.

Still, QuantumScape shared initial prototypes with Volkswagen in 2022, and the automaker said the solid-state battery samples could be used in an EV for up to 500,000 miles without any degradation and could be charged to 80 percent in 15 minutes.

Another example includes Toyota, which said last June that it reached a breakthrough in solid-state battery tech that it hoped would eventually let it make EVs with over 700 miles of range and charging times of just 10 minutes.

Despite this, the automaker said in November that it expects to produce more hydrogen-powered vehicles than solid-state EVs in 2030, highlighting the company’s continued focus on developing hydrogen fuel cell technology.

Honda is looking to add a test production line for solid-state batteries as soon as 2024, and the automaker expects to debut EVs with them by the latter part of this decade. In addition, the company invested in SES AI, with which the company hopes to jointly develop solid-state EV batteries.

Nissan also plans to debut an EV with pure solid-state batteries, which the automaker hopes to develop in-house and debut in EVs by 2028.

The list of companies investing in solid-state tech goes on, and it includes several automakers and suppliers such as Nio, BMW, CATL, U.S. startup Solid Power, LG Energy Solution, SK On, and still many more.

However, even with the many investments and support from several automakers looking to make EVs more efficient, it appears that any solid-state EVs are still years away.


What are your thoughts? Let me know at zach@teslarati.com, find me on X at @zacharyvisconti, or send your tips to us at tips@teslarati.com.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6fSOJgcxwI

Singing a different tune now.

[jesmu84]

Toyota has been fighting against BEVs forever.

Nothing to see here.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Efficiency.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/02/the-us-added-1-2-million-evs-to-the-grid-last-year-electricity-use-went-down/amp/


The US Added 1.2 Million EVs To The Grid Last Year, & Electricity Use Went Down


Article continues
....................
This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.
..................
Article continues

[MU82]

From the WSJ:

Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

From the WSJ:

Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.

I was just reading my latest EV trade magazine, Charged.  I can't find the articles online, only the digital edition of the latest magazine.
Three short reads that I thought seemed to address Scoop regular subjects of comment.

https://issuu.com/chargedevs/docs/iss_66_all

Page 10 Publisher's Note: Reports of the death of EVs have been greatly exaggerated by Christian Ruoff (Publisher)
Page 36 Electric Vehicle Containment Unit can squelch EV fires even as they're still burning
Page 82 Charging: Help is on the way by Charles Morris

[tower912]

It has been touched on that we are currently in the Model T era of EV's.     I firmly believe that they are the future.    I also firmly believe that future is farther away than the optimistic believe.   

[jesmu84]

From the WSJ:

Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.

This is terrible journalism

[MU82]

This is terrible journalism

I was just the messenger. I don't own an EV and I haven't researched them thoroughly. Which part of it is terrible and/or inaccurate, jes?

[jesmu84]

I was just the messenger. I don't own an EV and I haven't researched them thoroughly. Which part of it is terrible and/or inaccurate, jes?

The short-ish answer is that EVs continue to sell in record numbers for nearly every manufacturer every quarter/year. BUT, they're selling slightly less than what the manufacturers initially told their shareholders to expect.

So these articles are written to quell shareholder expectations and deflect blame from the manufacturers themselves

Though I believe any shortages of sales are due to manufacturers having a rough time with supply chains and factory conversion + dealers being reluctant to get into EV selling.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Didn't Hertz just dispose of thousands of EVs because no demand from renters.. Friend of mine met me with the rental car and said he passed because he didn't know where or how to recharge and didn't want to search  on the way back to the airport . 

[jesmu84]

Didn't Hertz just dispose of thousands of EVs because no demand from renters.. Friend of mine met me with the rental car and said he passed because he didn't know where or how to recharge and didn't want to search  on the way back to the airport .

No. Much more to the story.

https://www.facebook.com/100044527030149/posts/940986447395581/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

[MU82]

The short-ish answer is that EVs continue to sell in record numbers for nearly every manufacturer every quarter/year. BUT, they're selling slightly less than what the manufacturers initially told their shareholders to expect.

So these articles are written to quell shareholder expectations and deflect blame from the manufacturers themselves

Though I believe any shortages of sales are due to manufacturers having a rough time with supply chains and factory conversion + dealers being reluctant to get into EV selling.

Thanks for the response, jes.

I definitely want EVs to succeed wildly, and to just get better and better, and greener and greener.