MU tennis, track & field to become non-scholarship sports

[shoothoops]

Shoothoops did Archery

Gotta be tough (and sad) to carry around so much angst to somehow find a way to post it in a thread about Marquette tennis and track.

I support all of Marquette's Women's and Men's teams.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

That they would have to pay back, unlike an athletic scholarship.

Not necessarily. Marquette makes institutional financial aid grants.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Like what? If the money is there why take it away from a future student who is good at Tennis or Track? So you admit they are not really cutting the budget, they're just cutting a program because it does not bring value to Marquette and now they can offer financial aid to 48 other students who will have to pay it back.

1. They are cutting a budget. The budget for athletic scholarships.

2. I would hope Marquette cuts anything that doesn't bring value.

3. Not all financial aid has to be paid back.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Like what? If the money is there why take it away from a future student who is good at Tennis or Track? So you admit they are not really cutting the budget, they're just cutting a program because it does not bring value to Marquette and now they can offer financial aid to 48 other students who will have to pay it back.

You understand that universities have more than one budget right?

[muwarrior69]

You understand that universities have more than one budget right?

...and you are telling me that MU could not find cost cutting measures somewhere else without harming students access to an education? The price of an Marquette education is all too high as it is, then they do this.

[junglecat022]

I'd guess these sports aren't very competitive and are losing the school money.

Can't speak for tennis, but for track, the women were Big East CHAMPS in both the indoor and outdoor track seasons in 2016 & 2017, and the men were Big East CHAMPS during the outdoor season in both 2016 & 2018. Not sure how many Marquette programs can say they won >1 league title in the past 10 years.

This track & field program has had six athletes go on to compete in the Olympics in nine different events. MU athletes have collected four silver, one bronze and one gold medal. The program is in its 100th year in 2023, and is rewarded with a major budget cut.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Max allowed scholarships per NCAA D1:
Men's tennis - 4.5
Women's tennis - ~8
Men's T&F - 12.6
Women's T&F - 18

Men's soccer - 9
Women's soccer - 14

Baseball - 11.7
Softball - 12

[muwarrior69]

Max allowed scholarships per NCAA D1:
Men's tennis - 4.5
Women's tennis - ~8
Men's T&F - 12.6
Women's T&F - 18

Men's soccer - 9
Women's soccer - 14

Baseball - 11.7
Softball - 12

So title IX is not equal per sport.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

...and you are telling me that MU could not find cost cutting measures somewhere else without harming students access to an education? The price of an Marquette education is all too high as it is, then they do this.

They didn't harm a student's access to an education.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So title IX is not equal per sport.

Nothing in Title IX requires a school to have an equal number of men's and women's scholarship for each sport. If it did, we would have D1 women's football and Marquette would be out of compliance for not having men's volleyball.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I think every women's sport had more scholarships allowed than men's sports, football excluded.

[muwarrior69]

Nothing in Title IX requires a school to have an equal number of men's and women's scholarship for each sport. If it did, we would have D1 women's football and Marquette would be out of compliance for not having men's volleyball.

I thought there had to be an equal number for men and women scholarships. So which mens sport make up the difference at Marquette.  According to this if a school does not have a D1 football team Title IX really screws the men as the women are allowed more scholarships then men.

https://www.athleticscholarships.net/division-1-colleges-schools.htm

[StillAWarrior]

So you are saying a student who can get a scholarship playing tennis or track and field at another school will take an alternative scholarship to attend Marquette that does not take their sport seriously? I don't think so.

I've seen it happen many times. There are a lot of advantages to that path. For an athlete, it can be fantastic to not have your financial aid money/scholarship tied to a sport. Many students still use non-profit sports as a means to and end — getting in to college and getting it paid for. Sometimes it's even better if you can use it to get in — but use other dollars to get it paid for.

Being an a D1 athlete is a full-time job and a grind. To have the freedom to drop the sport and still have your education paid for can be a wonderful thing for some kids.

*Edited to add: nothing above is intended to suggest that this move won't detract from the competitiveness of the affected programs. Undoubtedly, it will.

[Herman Cain]

The good news is the programs themselves are not being dropped . Scholarship counts go up and down in these minor sports at many schools.

An enterprising young student journalist did the research to bring this policy change out in the open.

If someone wants to participate in Track and Field at the D-1 Level , with all the training and health support ,they can still do it MU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I thought there had to be an equal number for men and women scholarships. So which mens sport make up the difference at Marquette.  According to this if a school does not have a D1 football team Title IX really screws the men as the women are allowed more scholarships then men.

https://www.athleticscholarships.net/division-1-colleges-schools.htm

You thought incorrectly and no it doesn't screw men. Marquette's gender ratio is 56% women, 44% men. There should be more opportunities available for women than men at Marquette because there are more women in need of opportunity.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Very few people get full rides from track or tennis. For most the effect will be minimal.

Honestly, it sounds more like the Ivy League model.  I know of students who were recruited for Yale for Track & Field.  My daughter's friend went to NYU for Shot Put and Discus as she was recruited and was given other scholarships.  I'm guessing this is more common than most people think.

[Dr. Blackheart]

As was stated in the article, NCAA funding was down considerably due to COVID as was general athletic and university operations revenue. In this case, the Blue & Gold fund which is the funding mechanism for athletic scholarships. If you care, give.

As Scholl states, MUAD can always add back these athletic scholarships but they had to prioritize.

[Macallan 18]

Can someone explain what makes a sport D1? I thought part of it was offering athletic scholarships?

If that isn't a requirement, why didn't Marquette just make wrestling non-scholarship instead of ending the program in the early 2000s?

Could the Marquette club swimming and diving or club men's volleyball be D1 non-scholarship programs?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Can someone explain what makes a sport D1? I thought part of it was offering athletic scholarships?

If that isn't a requirement, why didn't Marquette just make wrestling non-scholarship instead of ending the program in the early 2000s?

Could the Marquette club swimming and diving or club men's volleyball be D1 non-scholarship programs?

A sport isn't division one.  A school is.  To be division one, a school must offer at least seven sports for men and women. Right now, Marquette is at that minimum - basketball, cross country, lacrosse, track, tennis and soccer for both. Golf for men. Volleyball for women.  There are scholarship maximums for each sport, but no minimums. A school can be division one and offer no athletic scholarships at all. There are also requirements as to minimum roster size and minimum number of games.  There is also some sort of financial aid requirement, but that doesn't need to be funded specifically through athletic scholarships.

Could they have kept wrestling? Can they take up men's volleyball or swimming and diving? They answer to all of those is yes. But unless there is a clear recruitment strategy around those, they may end up just being money losers for the University.

Put it this way, if they ever dropped the number of sports needed to be eligible for Division One, I have no doubt Marquette would drop additional sports entirely. 

[muwarrior69]

You thought incorrectly and no it doesn't screw men. Marquette's gender ratio is 56% women, 44% men. There should be more opportunities available for women than men at Marquette because there are more women in need of opportunity.

So Marquette accepts more women because there are more available scholarships to offer? Are you saying Marquette can have more women on athletic scholarships than men?

[StillAWarrior]

Could they have kept wrestling? Can they take up men's volleyball or swimming and diving? They answer to all of those is yes. But unless there is a clear recruitment strategy around those, they may end up just being money losers for the University.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying in your post...but I think that it's pretty clear that virtually all sports other than Football and MBB are money losers for the University (and even a lot of those two outside the P6). I suspect that the number of non-FB/MBB programs that actually earn money for a University are very few and far between.

[Dr. Blackheart]

So Marquette accepts more women because there are more available scholarships to offer? Are you saying Marquette can have more women on athletic scholarships than men?

Marquette accepts more women because there are a LOT more women who attend college.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236360/undergraduate-enrollment-in-us-by-gender/

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying in your post...but I think that it's pretty clear that virtually all sports other than Football and MBB are money losers for the University (and even a lot of those two outside the P6). I suspect that the number of non-FB/MBB programs that actually earn money for a University are very few and far between.

I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this.  If participation in a sport is the difference between attending Marquette or another school, having a coach show a place for them might be enough to get them to choose Marquette.  Especially in individualized sports like Track and Field / Cross Country.  It's hard to measure sure, but there are about 80-90 track athletes at MU that are currently dividing about 30 scholarships.  How many of that other 50-60 of FTE would have come to Marquette at all without a track & field program?

[StillAWarrior]

I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this.  If participation in a sport is the difference between attending Marquette or another school, having a coach show a place for them might be enough to get them to choose Marquette.  Especially in individualized sports like Track and Field / Cross Country.  It's hard to measure sure, but there are about 80-90 track athletes at MU that are currently dividing about 30 scholarships.  How many of that other 50-60 of FTE would have come to Marquette at all without a track & field program?

I think that's fair. But, I also think that if those 80-90 track athletes choose to not attend Marquette, they likely will be replaced by 80-90 other students. If we want to surmise that they will be replaced by 80-90 track athletes, then that likely would be a cost savings for the University in terms of scholarship expenses (and almost certainly a savings for the Athletics Department). If the program is cut entirely and they are replaced by 80-90 non-athletes, there will be a scholarship-based cost savings for the University and an additional cost savings in terms of the other costs of the program (e.g., salaries, equipment, travel, etc.). I suspect that on average, universities spend considerably less money on non-athletes than on athletes.

I think that where this kind of thing (i.e., using sports to drive admissions) really comes into play is in lower divisions. I think Mount Union in Ohio is a good example. They have 200+ kids on their football roster. That's damn near 10% of their total enrollment. If those kids suddenly stopped attending Mount Union their total enrollment likely would dip. I don't think Marquette's total enrollment would be affected if 80-90 track athletes chose not to attend. If they keep the track program, they'll probably get 80-90 track athletes who, as a group, are somewhat less talented than the prior 80-90. If they cut the program entirely, they'd probably get 80-90 other students.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think that's fair. But, I also think that if those 80-90 track athletes choose to not attend Marquette, they likely will be replaced by 80-90 other students. If we want to surmise that they will be replaced by 80-90 track athletes, then that likely would be a cost savings for the University in terms of scholarship expenses (and almost certainly a savings for the Athletics Department). If the program is cut entirely and they are replaced by 80-90 non-athletes, there will be a scholarship-based cost savings for the University and an additional cost savings in terms of the other costs of the program (e.g., salaries, equipment, travel, etc.). I suspect that on average, universities spend considerably less money on non-athletes than on athletes.

I think that where this kind of thing (i.e., using sports to drive admissions) really comes into play is in lower divisions. I think Mount Union in Ohio is a good example. They have 200+ kids on their football roster. That's damn near 10% of their total enrollment. If those kids suddenly stopped attending Mount Union their total enrollment likely would dip. I don't think Marquette's total enrollment would be affected if 80-90 track athletes chose not to attend. If they keep the track program, they'll probably get 80-90 track athletes who, as a group, are somewhat less talented than the prior 80-90. If they cut the program entirely, they'd probably get 80-90 other students.

Why do you think those athletes would be replaced by 80-90 other students? Marquette isn't at capacity by any means. They would take those 80-90 students right now - assuming they are qualified.