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Author Topic: Cupcake State  (Read 4534 times)

1SE

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2022, 04:46:14 AM »
This program's consistent inability to find a 250lb, 6'8- 6'10 beef boy is maddening. Not even an Edy or Bacot - but a Tolu Smith/Norchad Omier or even Dwight Wilson III type. Maybe that doesn't fit Shaka's style/plan but it certainly seems that consistent major-conference and NCAA success runs through having a presence in the front court.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2022, 06:43:17 AM »
This program's consistent inability to find a 250lb, 6'8- 6'10 beef boy is maddening. Not even an Edy or Bacot - but a Tolu Smith/Norchad Omier or even Dwight Wilson III type. Maybe that doesn't fit Shaka's style/plan but it certainly seems that consistent major-conference and NCAA success runs through having a presence in the front court.

My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.
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MU82

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2022, 07:00:25 AM »
My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.

Yep. We love to talk about how great a coach Jay Wright was (which he was) and about how he built a program that all Big East teams should strive for (which he did).

Well, the "bigs" on his 2018 title team were 6-9 Amare Spellman and 6-8 Eric Paschal. Neither came anywhere near averaging 10 rpg, and both would pull up from 3 at any time. They were forwards, not anything close to "classic bigs."

Wright had 6-11 Daniel Ochefu on his 2015-16 championship team, but he averaged only 23 mpg, and the 2nd tallest guy on the team was 6-8 Darryl Reynolds.

In 2020-21, Baylor played most of the time without anything resembling a "true 5." 6-11 Flo Thamba started every game but averaged only 15 mpg. Often, 6-9 Matthew Mayer, who liked to play on the outside, was their tallest guy on the floor.

What those teams had were lots and lots of talented, athletic switchables.

And that's just 3 recent examples.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2022, 07:15:47 AM »
My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.

Well, you did in 1956
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2022, 07:45:55 AM »
My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.


And just watch like five minutes of Marquette basketball and tell me where an "aircraft carrier" is going to fit on the offensive end.  And if anyone uses "wide post" in response, they are sentenced to spend the rest of this season hanging out with Murff on Dodds' Board where they can discuss such nonsense.
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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2022, 07:56:48 AM »
they are sentenced to spend the rest of this season hanging out with Murff on Dodds' Board where they can discuss such nonsense.

I'll take waterboarding with a side of walling before that kind of punishment.

MUfan12

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2022, 10:25:42 AM »
And just watch like five minutes of Marquette basketball and tell me where an "aircraft carrier" is going to fit on the offensive end.  And if anyone uses "wide post" in response, they are sentenced to spend the rest of this season hanging out with Murff on Dodds' Board where they can discuss such nonsense.

By aircraft carrier are we talking about a Davante body type? Or someone like Oso except stronger? As far as I can tell, if a big can move well he'll fit in the offense.


tower912

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2022, 10:33:12 AM »
Theo John with skills.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2022, 10:39:41 AM »
My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.

Shaka needs to recruit more rebounders.  Not sure the style he used at VCU is as sustainable in the Big East without better rebounding. I mean, the boys couldn’t even out rebound Chicago State. It was a problem last year and has been a major problem against the better teams we’ve played this year. Our bigs are not good rebounders and that needs to change.
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GoldenEagles03

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2022, 10:51:09 AM »
Shaka needs to recruit more rebounders.  Not sure the style he used at VCU is as sustainable in the Big East without better rebounding. I mean, the boys couldn’t even out rebound Chicago State. It was a problem last year and has been a major problem against the better teams we’ve played this year. Our bigs are not good rebounders and that needs to change.

Rebounding hasn't even been an issue with this team. They outrebounded Purdue 39 to 35 including 15 to 6 on the Offensive glass.

They have outrebounded their opponents 259 to 257 on the year. A lot of that has to do with the amount of shots we miss.  Our tempo is fast and we take a lot of shots with a lot of misses so our opponents will always have a lot of rebounds. Just have to start making shots.

On the bright side we are 7th in the country in total assists and 41st in steals.

The biggest issue to me is the 3 point %.  I love the idea of 3's and dunks/layups, but you have to knock down 3's to truly maximize that potential of that theory.  Currently this team ranks 253rd in America with a 31% 3point.

Where we've hung around is holding our opponents to 30.1% 3point which is good for 102nd in the country.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2022, 10:59:00 AM »
Shaka needs to recruit more rebounders.  Not sure the style he used at VCU is as sustainable in the Big East without better rebounding. I mean, the boys couldn’t even out rebound Chicago State. It was a problem last year and has been a major problem against the better teams we’ve played this year. Our bigs are not good rebounders and that needs to change.

We outrebounded Chicago State. We've outrebounded every team we've played except Mississippi State and LIU (who we beat by 37 so fart noise). We don't get a lot of offensive rebounds but have been solid on the defensive glass.

Rebounding is the weakest part of our game which is fine as long as we are winning the eFG% and TO% battles. If you look at Shaka's history, rebounding is always the weak part of his teams, it's an intentional decision. Would like to see us get a few more offensive rebounds than we've been getting. I suspect that will come as players get older, wiser, and stronger. We've already seen a significant improvement from last season.
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JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2022, 11:05:55 AM »
Rebounding hasn't even been an issue with this team. They outrebounded Purdue 39 to 35 including 15 to 6 on the Offensive glass.

They have outrebounded their opponents 259 to 257 on the year. A lot of that has to do with the amount of shots we miss.  Our tempo is fast and we take a lot of shots with a lot of misses so our opponents will always have a lot of rebounds. Just have to start making shots.

On the bright side we are 7th in the country in total assists and 41st in steals.

The biggest issue to me is the 3 point %.  I love the idea of 3's and dunks/layups, but you have to knock down 3's to truly maximize that potential of that theory.  Currently this team ranks 253rd in America with a 31% 3point.

Where we've hung around is holding our opponents to 30.1% 3point which is good for 102nd in the country.

I disagree on the rebounding.  We got killed on the boards against Miss State and is a huge reason we lost.  I am not too concerned about overall rebounding margin when 4/7 games are against awful teams, but its definitely concerning when Chicago State can out rebound a team like Marquette in a half. Neither Oso nor Omax are great rebounders for their size.  Gold is more of perimeter player than a true big. When Oso is off the floor, there is really no one to grab boards. I think rebounding will be a big issue this year, and there aren't really reinforcements coming next year in that regard.

But yah, shooting is a huge issue too.  I just brought up the rebounding due to the conversation about us needing a center.  Marquette really could have used a transfer big like Javon Franklin on GT to back up Oso.  Maybe Wrightsil was supposed to be that guy and still can be if he ever gets healthy enough to contribute.
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jfp61

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2022, 01:05:38 PM »
Rebounding hasn't even been an issue with this team. They outrebounded Purdue 39 to 35 including 15 to 6 on the Offensive glass.

They have outrebounded their opponents 259 to 257 on the year. A lot of that has to do with the amount of shots we miss.  Our tempo is fast and we take a lot of shots with a lot of misses so our opponents will always have a lot of rebounds. Just have to start making shots.

On the bright side we are 7th in the country in total assists and 41st in steals.

The biggest issue to me is the 3 point %.  I love the idea of 3's and dunks/layups, but you have to knock down 3's to truly maximize that potential of that theory.  Currently this team ranks 253rd in America with a 31% 3point.

Where we've hung around is holding our opponents to 30.1% 3point which is good for 102nd in the country.

IMO- the takeaway should be "rebounding isn't an issue" because shaka's defense doesn't believe in rebounding, and it is predicated on TO's and defensive eFG%. More than anything else.

And overall, this is a good rebounding team for a shaka smart team.

jfp61

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2022, 01:08:33 PM »
I disagree on the rebounding.  We got killed on the boards against Miss State and is a huge reason we lost.  I am not too concerned about overall rebounding margin when 4/7 games are against awful teams, but its definitely concerning when Chicago State can out rebound a team like Marquette in a half. Neither Oso nor Omax are great rebounders for their size.  Gold is more of perimeter player than a true big. When Oso is off the floor, there is really no one to grab boards. I think rebounding will be a big issue this year, and there aren't really reinforcements coming next year in that regard.

But yah, shooting is a huge issue too.  I just brought up the rebounding due to the conversation about us needing a center.  Marquette really could have used a transfer big like Javon Franklin on GT to back up Oso.  Maybe Wrightsil was supposed to be that guy and still can be if he ever gets healthy enough to contribute.

The rebounding is good/adequate for how shaka wants to play. But we arn't a good rebounding team.

Shaka didn't really believe in rebounding with multiple professional bigs at Texas. Including Jarrett Allen who is a top 10 NBA rebounding.

Tha Hound

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #114 on: November 28, 2022, 07:21:13 PM »
Love all the people saying “Marquette needs this” or “we have to get XYZ” despite it being totally contrary to the very public, transparent philosophy our current coach has laid out time after time.

It seriously makes me wonder if half the posters here even pay attention to the team.


brewcity77

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2022, 07:24:33 PM »
My guess is that Shaka will never recruit one of these.

This board has a weird obsession with heavy centers. You don't have to recruit aircraft carriers to win in today's NCAA.

At the highest level? I'm not so sure.

2022 Kansas: 6'10" 250 lb David McCormack
2021 Baylor: 6'8" 245 lb Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua
2019 Virginia: 6'9" 228 lb Mamadi Diakite
2018 Villanova: 6'9" 245 lb Omari Spellman
2017 North Carolina: 6'10" 260 Kennedy Meeks
2016 Villanova: 6'10" 245 lb Daniel Ochefu
2015 Duke: 6'11" 270 lb Jahlil Okafor
2014 UConn: 6'10" 210 lb Philip Nolan
2013 Louisville: 6'11" 245 lb Gorgui Dieng
2012 Kentucky: 6'9" 252 lb Terrence Jones
2011 UConn: 6'9" 240 lb Alex Oriakhi
2010 Duke: 6'10" 260 lb Brian Zoubek

Other than that fluke UConn team, all of these teams had someone that was somewhat in that aircraft carrier mode. 2019 Virginia also had 6'10" 250 lb Jack Salt. UConn with Nolan and 7'0" Amida Brimah were really the only team with primary bigs that were the lanky athletes that Shaka seems to be preferring here. For a guy that's sent Jarrett Allen, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, and Jericho Sims to the league and also had bigs like Dylan Osetkowski and Will Baker, I'll admit I'm surprised we haven't made getting bigger bigs a priority.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #116 on: November 28, 2022, 07:39:59 PM »
Love all the people saying “Marquette needs this” or “we have to get XYZ” despite it being totally contrary to the very public, transparent philosophy our current coach has laid out time after time.

It seriously makes me wonder if half the posters here even pay attention to the team.

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2022, 10:34:32 PM »
At the highest level? I'm not so sure.

2022 Kansas: 6'10" 250 lb David McCormack
2021 Baylor: 6'8" 245 lb Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua
2019 Virginia: 6'9" 228 lb Mamadi Diakite
2018 Villanova: 6'9" 245 lb Omari Spellman
2017 North Carolina: 6'10" 260 Kennedy Meeks
2016 Villanova: 6'10" 245 lb Daniel Ochefu
2015 Duke: 6'11" 270 lb Jahlil Okafor
2014 UConn: 6'10" 210 lb Philip Nolan
2013 Louisville: 6'11" 245 lb Gorgui Dieng
2012 Kentucky: 6'9" 252 lb Terrence Jones
2011 UConn: 6'9" 240 lb Alex Oriakhi
2010 Duke: 6'10" 260 lb Brian Zoubek

Other than that fluke UConn team, all of these teams had someone that was somewhat in that aircraft carrier mode. 2019 Virginia also had 6'10" 250 lb Jack Salt. UConn with Nolan and 7'0" Amida Brimah were really the only team with primary bigs that were the lanky athletes that Shaka seems to be preferring here. For a guy that's sent Jarrett Allen, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, and Jericho Sims to the league and also had bigs like Dylan Osetkowski and Will Baker, I'll admit I'm surprised we haven't made getting bigger bigs a priority.

If Mamadi Diakite is an aircraft carrier then we have three on our team. I wouldn't put half the guys you mentioned in that category. A lot of these guys are athletic, mobile and can face the basket and Shaka would absolutely recruit those guys.
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MU82

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2022, 11:32:31 PM »
At the highest level? I'm not so sure.

2022 Kansas: 6'10" 250 lb David McCormack
2021 Baylor: 6'8" 245 lb Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua
2019 Virginia: 6'9" 228 lb Mamadi Diakite
2018 Villanova: 6'9" 245 lb Omari Spellman
2017 North Carolina: 6'10" 260 Kennedy Meeks
2016 Villanova: 6'10" 245 lb Daniel Ochefu
2015 Duke: 6'11" 270 lb Jahlil Okafor
2014 UConn: 6'10" 210 lb Philip Nolan
2013 Louisville: 6'11" 245 lb Gorgui Dieng
2012 Kentucky: 6'9" 252 lb Terrence Jones
2011 UConn: 6'9" 240 lb Alex Oriakhi
2010 Duke: 6'10" 260 lb Brian Zoubek

Other than that fluke UConn team, all of these teams had someone that was somewhat in that aircraft carrier mode. 2019 Virginia also had 6'10" 250 lb Jack Salt. UConn with Nolan and 7'0" Amida Brimah were really the only team with primary bigs that were the lanky athletes that Shaka seems to be preferring here. For a guy that's sent Jarrett Allen, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, and Jericho Sims to the league and also had bigs like Dylan Osetkowski and Will Baker, I'll admit I'm surprised we haven't made getting bigger bigs a priority.

As already stated, Spellman was a forward who liked to shoot 3s and Ochefu barely played half of most games -- if Ochefu was an "aircraft carrier," so was Otule.

When I think of "aircraft carrier," I think of Shaq or Sampson or at least Mo Lucas. That list includes few anywhere within light years of those.

But sure, we definitely could use another big body, and I'm both surprised and disappointed that Shaka didn't bring in a transfer to help Oso -- even a Jayce Johnson type would have been nice.
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1SE

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2022, 03:06:28 AM »
Brew's list is way better than the examples I gave - or as Tower put it- Theo with skills.

A physical presence can still face the basket and shoot threes - its just having someone that, when we come up against a similar size body wont get abused.

I love Oso and omax as players - but I'm afraid when we run up against these types (like Miss St) we dont have a body to match. Shaka got away with beanpole 4s and 5s at VCU because very few of the mid.major opponents had that type of player. Of course on any given night that can be overcome with great shooting or pressure D, but it's tough to win consistently against teams w those guys if you can't match their tactics.
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brewcity77

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2022, 05:38:02 AM »
If Mamadi Diakite is an aircraft carrier then we have three on our team. I wouldn't put half the guys you mentioned in that category. A lot of these guys are athletic, mobile and can face the basket and Shaka would absolutely recruit those guys.

And I noted that Virginia team also had Jack Salt. I don't think posters on this site are looking for one-dimensional, back to the basket Shaq types, or old fashioned aircraft carrier players. It's having bodies big enough to handle the low post banging and I think that is even more pronounced in conference play. If they are athletic or have face-up skills, all the better, but in general teams have to have a few physical frames that carry 235-250 when it comes to winning six games in March.

As already stated, Spellman was a forward who liked to shoot 3s and Ochefu barely played half of most games -- if Ochefu was an "aircraft carrier," so was Otule.

But Spellman had the frame to bang down low and Ochefu played 26+ in every NCAA Tournament game, 28+ after the first round. And I'd love an Otule or even Dwight Burke on this roster to deal with Sanogo and Kalkbrenner down low.

When I think of "aircraft carrier," I think of Shaq or Sampson or at least Mo Lucas. That list includes few anywhere within light years of those.

I was mainly addressing TAMU's "obsession with heavy centers" comment but 10 of the last 12 title winners prominently featured a 240+ pound center, and as mentioned UVA had Salt on the roster playing rotation minutes, even if it was only to combat Matt Haarms once NCAA time rolled around.

But sure, we definitely could use another big body, and I'm both surprised and disappointed that Shaka didn't bring in a transfer to help Oso -- even a Jayce Johnson type would have been nice.

This is more where I'm at. I get that 6'11", 245-pound players that run like gazelles, can shoot the three, and be a defensive stopper in the low post are hard to come by because those are NBA lottery picks. But when you have Shaka's track record of NBA bigs (Allen, Bamba, Hayes, Sims) it seems surprising you would have zero big (240+ pound) players on the roster not just for this year, but for potentially the next two years based on scholarships offered, unless Ben Gold adds 30 pounds.
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MU82

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2022, 06:38:33 AM »
All that is fair, brew. Even another Kuath type would have helped.
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DoctorV

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2022, 08:20:33 AM »
For this season, id assume that it’s pretty likely Shaka viewed Zach Wrightsil as a poor mans Justin Lewis with some veteran presence on a team that needed another guy to help replace Justins front court production.

That’s not to say that Shaka thought Zach would be anywhere near as good as Justin, but more so that he would be very serviceable and produce in the front court in both the scoring and rebounding departments, as well as a plus defender. Something like 10-12ppg and 6-8rpg.

Shaka saw Zach’s production at a lower level, where he was the best in the country, and assumed that it would probably translate to decent and productive play at Marquette.
He then likely valued a player like this more so than a project big that would sit behind Oso and play much less, battling for minutes with Keeyan and Ben.

I understand what he was thinking, and yes there is a possibility that he was wrong, everyone makes mistakes.
However, we aren’t there yet. Wrightsil may become a productive rotation guy as the season goes on, hopefully that injury doesn’t continue to linger.

I can’t fault the thought process though, as I tend to agree that a productive Wrightsil type player is more important to this years team than a backup 5.

That said, if Keeyan isn’t playing 10-15 productive minutes by February/March then Shaka really needs to turn on the burners for either another Kur type transfer- or hopefully even better than Kur- or another extremely productive 6’8-6’9 big man transfer who would back up Oso and take some of OMax minutes at the 4 if he doesn’t continue to progress and produce.
The alternative would be a highly ranked 5 in the mold of Oso that would play behind him and have to learn extremely quickly on the fly.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 10:16:26 AM by DoctorV »

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #123 on: November 29, 2022, 08:33:56 AM »
There was some connection between the coaching staff at Loyola New Orleans and Shaka too - something like a former VCU player who is now on their staff if memory recalls? So he likely heard a lot of good things about fit.

I actually don't think he was looking for much scoring.  Rebounding and defense, and IMO, a better back up post than anything you would see out of Keeyan or Gold. Plus as you said, a veteran presence who knows how to win games, albiet at a lower level.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Cupcake State
« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2022, 08:41:47 AM »
And I noted that Virginia team also had Jack Salt. I don't think posters on this site are looking for one-dimensional, back to the basket Shaq types, or old fashioned aircraft carrier players.

I think that's exactly what a not insignificant portion of posters are looking for.

My point is that I think many posters think Shaka should grab an aircraft carrier who isn't mobile, who can't put the ball on the floor, who can't face the basket, who can't shoot beyond 5 feet just for the sake of having a big body on the roster. Of course they would prefer one who can do all those things but since they are mostly top 50 recruits coveted by all programs, Shaka should just take what he can get, even if the big body doesn't fit the system.

I think as Shaka builds his credibility at Marquette, he will be able to land more of those top 50 type forwards. I think until then, we are going to be recruiting skinny kids and trying to bulk them up. We've hard Shaka say that the goal is to get Itejere to 250lbs (or 240 I can't remember). My guess is that they have a similar idea for Gold.
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