True Road Games in November

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

A look back:

22-23: 5 point loss @ #23 Purdue
21-22: N/A
20-21: N/A
19-20: 16 point loss @ #22 Wisconsin
18-19: 23 point loss @ #52 Indiana
17-18: N/A
16-17: N/A
15-16: N/A
14-15: 11 point loss @ #19 Ohio State
13-14: 2 point loss @ #39 Arizona State
12-13: 33 point loss @ #2 Florida
11-12: N/A
10-11: 3 point win @#138 UW-Milwaukee
09-10: N/A
08-09: N/A
07-08: 11 point win vs. non-D1 Chaminade
06-07: 3 point win vs. #148 Valparaiso
05-06: 10 point loss vs. #111 Nebraska
04-05: 8 point win vs. #178 Oakland
03-04: 7 point win vs. #200 St. John's
02-03: N/A (season started a week later than it does now, 21 point loss @ #21 Notre Dame on December 2nd)
01-02: N/A
00-01: N/A
99-00: 9 point loss @ Minnesota

We have literally only beaten a high major on the road in November once in the past 4 coaches and that was a crappy St. John's team that went 6-21. Even in that win and the wins against non-high majors, we've put up terrible performances and only won by single digits (or 11 against a non-D1 team).

I'd venture to say that last night was the best we looked in a November true road game during this near quarter-century stretch. Doesn't mean that this season will go well, but it's another reason I'm not pessimistic about yesterday's performance.

[tower912]

Yes, last night was the latest in a long tradition.   
Borrowing from Shaka's post game presser, learn and get better.

[Goose]

TAMU

Last night showed me a bit of where we are as a program. We are short on having big time talent, but a lot of good players that have still have upside potential. Shaka has a system and he is sticking with it and we will see how guys progress. That being said, I think we have upgraded overall talent over last year and I think the incoming recruits for next year will be an additional upgrade.

There will not be many nights that we are outworked by the opponent, and they really have to go all out every night, especially against better teams. I am optimistic that this team will have better success than last year and hopefully that trend continues next year. Shaka is betting a lot on system and type of players he is bringing into the program and I am 100% all in on trusting Shaka with the future of the program.

[mu_hilltopper]

A look back:

22-23: 5 point loss @ #23 Purdue
21-22: N/A
20-21: N/A
19-20: 16 point loss @ #22 Wisconsin
18-19: 23 point loss @ #52 Indiana
17-18: N/A
16-17: N/A
15-16: N/A
14-15: 11 point loss @ #19 Ohio State
13-14: 2 point loss @ #39 Arizona State
12-13: 33 point loss @ #2 Florida
11-12: N/A
10-11: 3 point win @#138 UW-Milwaukee

And that UWM game at the MECCA .. when we had future NBA players Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, (and DJO) .. MU was up 18, collapsed to a 2 point game with seconds to play.    Ouch.

Moral of the story .. never play road games in November?

[wadesworld]

Moral victories are fun.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Moral victories are fun.

If that's the terminology you're comfortable with go for it. For me, it's about being able to differentiate between a loss and a bad loss. Yesterday was a loss.

[Elonsmusk]

Moral victories are fun.

We need to rehire Steve.  That Year 2 loss to Iowa at home that we lost by 29 and were down 48-21 was proof positive we'd hired the right guy.  Can't believe we lead Number 22 Purdue on the road for 35 minutes.  Time to MOPE and throw in the towel.

[Galway Eagle]

And that UWM game at the MECCA .. when we had future NBA players Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, (and DJO) .. MU was up 18, collapsed to a 2 point game with seconds to play.    Ouch.

Moral of the story .. never play road games in November?

Dwight Buycks was also on that team.

[MuggsyB]

If that's the terminology you're comfortable with go for it. For me, it's about being able to differentiate between a loss and a bad loss. Yesterday was a loss.

There is context  to every win and loss.  Yesterday we had outplayed Purdue for 30 mins before collapsing down the stretch.  On paper yes, it's a loss as opposed to a bad loss.  But you can't completely disregard what specifically happens during the course of the game. We also have no idea how good Purdue will be this season. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There is context  to every win and loss.  Yesterday we had outplayed Purdue for 30 mins before collapsing down the stretch.  On paper yes, it's a loss as opposed to a bad loss.  But you can't completely disregard what specifically happens during the course of the game. We also have no idea how good Purdue will be this season.

How has I or anyone "completely disregarded what specifically happened during the course of the game"? We also have some idea on how good Purdue will be because we've seen them play three games now. Historically, Painter-led teams get better as the season goes on.

[Goose]

I do not believe in moral victories, but do believe in judging progress by the way games play out. IMO, this team is further along at this point than they were a year ago. I hate to say it, but if Justin Lewis was back on this team, I think they would be top three team in the BE. Finding a Justin Lewis is not easy, but only needing to fill one spot next year is easier than filling multiple spots.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dwight Buycks was also on that team.

Visions of @ Louisville dancing in my head....

[Galway Eagle]

Visions of @ Louisville dancing in my head....

A true coach would've coaxed the NBA talent out of him

[cheebs09]

It would have been great to win and that’s the goal. However, I feel more confident about this team’s tournament chances and where they are at than I did before the game. That softens the blow of the loss for me.

It is possible to take positives from losses. Very few teams go undefeated.

[MU82]

I agree with cheebs, Goose and Wiz.

To me, it's not a "moral victory" to look at progress and make assessments.

I'm encouraged about this year's team, and very encouraged about the direction of the program.

Wiz, thanks for that look back on the history of MU's November road games. Eye-opening. I all too vividly remember some of those crappier performances. And you're not even counting the 2013 loss at UWGB ... because that travesty was in December.

[tower912]

What month did MU lose to Maine?

[Tha Hound]

Moral victories are fun.

Very funny to think all this pessimism from you stems from still being butthurt about Wojo being canned, which was of course the right decision, regardless of who his successor is.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Moral victories are fun.

[NolongerWarriors]

TAMU

Last night showed me a bit of where we are as a program. We are short on having big time talent, but a lot of good players that have still have upside potential. Shaka has a system and he is sticking with it and we will see how guys progress. That being said, I think we have upgraded overall talent over last year and I think the incoming recruits for next year will be an additional upgrade.

There will not be many nights that we are outworked by the opponent, and they really have to go all out every night, especially against better teams. I am optimistic that this team will have better success than last year and hopefully that trend continues next year. Shaka is betting a lot on system and type of players he is bringing into the program and I am 100% all in on trusting Shaka with the future of the program.

And all of those pie-in-the-sky flowery thoughts mean nothing when MU's players are throwing up brick after brick after brick after brick.

Their ceiling is low because Shaka recruits guys that cannot shoot.

[Elonsmusk]

And all of those pie-in-the-sky flowery thoughts mean nothing when MU's players are throwing up brick after brick after brick after brick.

Their ceiling is low because Shaka recruits guys that cannot shoot.

What were your thoughts about the Badgers struggles at home against 353rd ranked Green Bay?  This UW team has a low ceiling because Gard recruited guys that can't compete athletically.

[wadesworld]

Very funny to think all this pessimism from you stems from still being butthurt about Wojo being canned, which was of course the right decision, regardless of who his successor is.

I was actually a lot higher on the team going into last season than most people around here were.  I thought we would be a bubble team and liked that we had an elite defender at the point of attack in Morsell and elite rim protector in Kuath.  I thought that was a solid starting point.  The team outperformed my (modestly more optimistic) expectations going into last year, so hopefully they outperform my expectations this year.  I like Shaka a lot, and was thrilled when we thought we were getting him the first time around.

The pessimism this year comes from us losing our (by far) two best players from a team that had one really hot month and otherwise was just meh, and replaced them with two three stars, an NAIA transfer, and an international recruit.  I saw (and still see) guys who can play one side of the ball but struggle on the other side.  Stevie and OMax are hounds defensively.  Kolek can control the pace of the game and manipulate the defense.  Oso is performing much better than expected and is one guy who performs well both offensively and defensively.  But I have 0 confidence at all in any of those guys' perimeter shooting.  And basketball at all levels now is about shooting.  When 4 of your 5 starters are not threats to shoot at all, that's a problem.  And off the bench we have one guy who is a threat.  Maybe Ben Gold or Sean Jones can be a second guy off the bench, but I'm not counting on it this year.

I don't see the talent.  You need All Conference level talent to compete with the top of a conference.  Jop and Kam could have the offensive numbers, but they're as bad on defense as they are good on offense.  Kolek and Oso could maybe get there, but when you can't score from more than 5 feet from the rim it'll be difficult to get the scoring numbers.

We'll see.  I'd love to be wrong, but the only guy playing better than what I expected so far this year is Oso.

[Uncle Rico]

I was actually a lot higher on the team going into last season than most people around here were.  I thought we would be a bubble team and liked that we had an elite defender at the point of attack in Morsell and elite rim protector in Kuath.  I thought that was a solid starting point.  The team outperformed my (modestly more optimistic) expectations going into last year, so hopefully they outperform my expectations this year.  I like Shaka a lot, and was thrilled when we thought we were getting him the first time around.

The pessimism this year comes from us losing our (by far) two best players from a team that had one really hot month and otherwise was just meh, and replaced them with two three stars, an NAIA transfer, and an international recruit.  I saw (and still see) guys who can play one side of the ball but struggle on the other side.  Stevie and OMax are hounds defensively.  Kolek can control the pace of the game and manipulate the defense.  Oso is performing much better than expected and is one guy who performs well both offensively and defensively.  But I have 0 confidence at all in any of those guy's perimeter shooting.  And basketball at all levels now is about shooting.  When 4 of your 5 starters are not threats to shoot at all, that's a problem.  And off the bench we have one guy who is a threat.  Maybe Ben Gold or Sean Jones can be a second guy off the bench, but I'm not counting on it this year.

I don't see the talent.  You need All Conference level talent to compete with the top of a conference.  Jop and Kam could have the offensive numbers, but they're as bad on defense as they are good on offense.  Kolek and Oso could maybe get there, but when you can't score from more than 5 feet from the rim it'll be difficult to get the scoring numbers.

We'll see.  I'd love to be wrong, but the only guy playing better than what I expected so far this year is Oso.

These are fair points

[Goose]

Wades

I think you are missing the boat on Kolek. I see a much better version of Kolek already this season, both physically and on the defensive side of the ball. If he a team of shooters around him, he would average 10+ assists a game. IMO, he a better player than he was a year ago.

[bilsu]

I always thought it is very hard to win the first true road game.

I was very encouraged last night. We lost our lead when we subbed in Ross and Gold. I look forward to when these two have more experience.

[wadesworld]

Wades

I think you are missing the boat on Kolek. I see a much better version of Kolek already this season, both physically and on the defensive side of the ball. If he a team of shooters around him, he would average 10+ assists a game. IMO, he a better player than he was a year ago.

I agree that he's a better version of the player that he was last year.  I love him as our point guard.  But I also agree that if he had 4 offensive weapons around him, he'd be an incredible player.  But as it is we need a couple players outside of Kam and Jop to step up and score the rock.