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Author Topic: True Road Games in November  (Read 2843 times)

jfp61

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2022, 12:17:12 PM »
I was actually a lot higher on the team going into last season than most people around here were.  I thought we would be a bubble team and liked that we had an elite defender at the point of attack in Morsell and elite rim protector in Kuath.  I thought that was a solid starting point.  The team outperformed my (modestly more optimistic) expectations going into last year, so hopefully they outperform my expectations this year.  I like Shaka a lot, and was thrilled when we thought we were getting him the first time around.

The pessimism this year comes from us losing our (by far) two best players from a team that had one really hot month and otherwise was just meh, and replaced them with two three stars, an NAIA transfer, and an international recruit.  I saw (and still see) guys who can play one side of the ball but struggle on the other side.  Stevie and OMax are hounds defensively.  Kolek can control the pace of the game and manipulate the defense.  Oso is performing much better than expected and is one guy who performs well both offensively and defensively.  But I have 0 confidence at all in any of those guys' perimeter shooting.  And basketball at all levels now is about shooting.  When 4 of your 5 starters are not threats to shoot at all, that's a problem.  And off the bench we have one guy who is a threat.  Maybe Ben Gold or Sean Jones can be a second guy off the bench, but I'm not counting on it this year.

I don't see the talent.  You need All Conference level talent to compete with the top of a conference.  Jop and Kam could have the offensive numbers, but they're as bad on defense as they are good on offense.  Kolek and Oso could maybe get there, but when you can't score from more than 5 feet from the rim it'll be difficult to get the scoring numbers.

We'll see.  I'd love to be wrong, but the only guy playing better than what I expected so far this year is Oso.

That's high on morsell honestly. "By far" is a little extreme. It implies he was within 2 tiers of the player Justin Lewis was, when he really wasn't.  He was in the same tier of player as Kolek, Omax, Oso, and Kur. You could probably have him second, but that gap was small.

muwarrior69

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2022, 12:27:29 PM »
A look back:

22-23: 5 point loss @ #23 Purdue
21-22: N/A
20-21: N/A
19-20: 16 point loss @ #22 Wisconsin
18-19: 23 point loss @ #52 Indiana
17-18: N/A
16-17: N/A
15-16: N/A
14-15: 11 point loss @ #19 Ohio State
13-14: 2 point loss @ #39 Arizona State
12-13: 33 point loss @ #2 Florida
11-12: N/A
10-11: 3 point win @#138 UW-Milwaukee
09-10: N/A
08-09: N/A
07-08: 11 point win vs. non-D1 Chaminade
06-07: 3 point win vs. #148 Valparaiso
05-06: 10 point loss vs. #111 Nebraska
04-05: 8 point win vs. #178 Oakland
03-04: 7 point win vs. #200 St. John's
02-03: N/A (season started a week later than it does now, 21 point loss @ #21 Notre Dame on December 2nd)
01-02: N/A
00-01: N/A
99-00: 9 point loss @ Minnesota

We have literally only beaten a high major on the road in November once in the past 4 coaches and that was a crappy St. John's team that went 6-21. Even in that win and the wins against non-high majors, we've put up terrible performances and only won by single digits (or 11 against a non-D1 team).

I'd venture to say that last night was the best we looked in a November true road game during this near quarter-century stretch. Doesn't mean that this season will go well, but it's another reason I'm not pessimistic about yesterday's performance.

We really suck on the road in November. I had no idea we were/are that bad. How do we stack up with the rest of the league?

MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2022, 01:25:56 PM »
I was actually a lot higher on the team going into last season than most people around here were.  I thought we would be a bubble team and liked that we had an elite defender at the point of attack in Morsell and elite rim protector in Kuath.  I thought that was a solid starting point.  The team outperformed my (modestly more optimistic) expectations going into last year, so hopefully they outperform my expectations this year.  I like Shaka a lot, and was thrilled when we thought we were getting him the first time around.

The pessimism this year comes from us losing our (by far) two best players from a team that had one really hot month and otherwise was just meh, and replaced them with two three stars, an NAIA transfer, and an international recruit.  I saw (and still see) guys who can play one side of the ball but struggle on the other side.  Stevie and OMax are hounds defensively.  Kolek can control the pace of the game and manipulate the defense.  Oso is performing much better than expected and is one guy who performs well both offensively and defensively.  But I have 0 confidence at all in any of those guys' perimeter shooting.  And basketball at all levels now is about shooting.  When 4 of your 5 starters are not threats to shoot at all, that's a problem.  And off the bench we have one guy who is a threat.  Maybe Ben Gold or Sean Jones can be a second guy off the bench, but I'm not counting on it this year.

I don't see the talent.  You need All Conference level talent to compete with the top of a conference.  Jop and Kam could have the offensive numbers, but they're as bad on defense as they are good on offense.  Kolek and Oso could maybe get there, but when you can't score from more than 5 feet from the rim it'll be difficult to get the scoring numbers.

We'll see.  I'd love to be wrong, but the only guy playing better than what I expected so far this year is Oso.

I disagree with a couple of points, wades, but overall this is a fair assessment of why one might be pessimistic about our season.

My optimism centers on how hard we play, on more shots falling, and on improvement as the season goes on. If we stop playing hard (I doubt that will happen), if more shots don't fall (possible; as you say, we might simply be a bad-shooting team), and/or if we don't get gradual improvement (we'll see!), it will be a non-NCAAT season.

I choose to take the optimistic view here in mid-November, but I'm not naive. I know it could end up being disappointing if enough of the "ifs" don't work in our favor.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

wadesworld

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2022, 01:46:12 PM »
That's high on morsell honestly. "By far" is a little extreme. It implies he was within 2 tiers of the player Justin Lewis was, when he really wasn't.  He was in the same tier of player as Kolek, Omax, Oso, and Kur. You could probably have him second, but that gap was small.

Morsell was our second leading scorer (by almost double our 3rd leading scorer), 4th leading rebounder (0.2 rebounds shy of 2nd leading rebounder), 2nd leading assist man, 2nd leading steals man, 4th leading blocks man, 3rd leading 3 point shooter (didn't include Ellis or Mitchell because they both shot less than 1 three pointer per game).  I could hear a case for Kolek being close to Morsell, but I don't think OMax, Oso, or Kur were even close.
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MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2022, 03:39:58 PM »
Morsell was our second leading scorer (by almost double our 3rd leading scorer), 4th leading rebounder (0.2 rebounds shy of 2nd leading rebounder), 2nd leading assist man, 2nd leading steals man, 4th leading blocks man, 3rd leading 3 point shooter (didn't include Ellis or Mitchell because they both shot less than 1 three pointer per game).  I could hear a case for Kolek being close to Morsell, but I don't think OMax, Oso, or Kur were even close.

I tend to agree Morsell was our second-best player but not all that much better than Kolek.

Morsell was the best player on the court for us the first 4 games -- a true revelation as he averaged 22.5 ppg on 57% shooting. But then, the rest of the way, he was much closer to the guy he was for 4 years at Maryland, averaging 12 ppg on 43% shooting. Still played fine D and did other things well, though Shaka did bench him a couple times.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

LAZER

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2022, 03:43:41 PM »
I tend to agree Morsell was our second-best player but not all that much better than Kolek.

Morsell was the best player on the court for us the first 4 games -- a true revelation as he averaged 22.5 ppg on 57% shooting. But then, the rest of the way, he was much closer to the guy he was for 4 years at Maryland, averaging 12 ppg on 43% shooting. Still played fine D and did other things well, though Shaka did bench him a couple times.
Really could've used him last night down the stretch.

tower912

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2022, 04:07:46 PM »
Shaka mentioned during his presser that the guys on the floor down the stretch last night were on the bench last year.
Last year, Kur, Darryl, Justin, and probably Greg would have been on the floor down the stretch.  Young guys have to figure it out.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2022, 08:40:38 PM »
Shaka mentioned during his presser that the guys on the floor down the stretch last night were on the bench last year.
Last year, Kur, Darryl, Justin, and probably Greg would have been on the floor down the stretch.  Young guys have to figure it out.

There is one person, and one person only to blame (or credit) with the lineup we had available down the stretch last night or any night this season.

I like Shaka, and I think he'll do a good job, but he gets no sympathy from me regarding the players he has. He is the Marquette men's basketball GM.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

GoldenEagles03

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2022, 09:18:43 PM »
There is one person, and one person only to blame (or credit) with the lineup we had available down the stretch last night or any night this season.

I like Shaka, and I think he'll do a good job, but he gets no sympathy from me regarding the players he has. He is the Marquette men's basketball GM.

He wasn't asking for sympathy. He's explaining why things didn't go smoothly.
VIOLENCE!

MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2022, 09:25:58 PM »
He wasn't asking for sympathy. He's explaining why things didn't go smoothly.

Fair. "Sympathy" was a poor word choice on my part.

But it does sound like Shaka is making an excuse (as well as stating a fact). The way his roster is constructed is 100% up to him. If roster construction contributed to the loss, there's only one person responsible for that.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

#UnleashSean

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2022, 10:17:09 PM »
Fair. "Sympathy" was a poor word choice on my part.

But it does sound like Shaka is making an excuse (as well as stating a fact). The way his roster is constructed is 100% up to him. If roster construction contributed to the loss, there's only one person responsible for that.

Id have to look back, but weren't you one of the guys who continued to give Wojo a pass claiming "bare cupboard". Pretty rough to give a coach in year 2 grief for not having a strong depth. Especially when you consider he lost a very strong piece in Lewis who very few people would have thought would go pro this time last year.

BCHoopster

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2022, 12:01:42 AM »
Id have to look back, but weren't you one of the guys who continued to give Wojo a pass claiming "bare cupboard". Pretty rough to give a coach in year 2 grief for not having a strong depth. Especially when you consider he lost a very strong piece in Lewis who very few people would have thought would go pro this time last year.
[/quote

Lewis was a big loss, Morsell as much as both could create there own shot.  Two alpha dogs last year.  This year, other then Kolek, who can take over or get to the hoop. Joplin and Kam, even Omax, are not drivers of the ball.  Oso is to timid,  Mitchell not quick enough, so it will be interesting the last 5 minutes of every game. This is called coaching, Shaka failed his first close game.  He is building a roster, so he will have seniors and juniors next year, an older team with lots of depth, Tre Norman might be that Alpha Dog, we will see.

GoldenEagles03

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2022, 12:12:41 AM »
Id have to look back, but weren't you one of the guys who continued to give Wojo a pass claiming "bare cupboard". Pretty rough to give a coach in year 2 grief for not having a strong depth. Especially when you consider he lost a very strong piece in Lewis who very few people would have thought would go pro this time last year.
[/quote

Lewis was a big loss, Morsell as much as both could create there own shot.  Two alpha dogs last year.  This year, other then Kolek, who can take over or get to the hoop. Joplin and Kam, even Omax, are not drivers of the ball.  Oso is to timid,  Mitchell not quick enough, so it will be interesting the last 5 minutes of every game. This is called coaching, Shaka failed his first close game.  He is building a roster, so he will have seniors and juniors next year, an older team with lots of depth, Tre Norman might be that Alpha Dog, we will see.

I'm confused at how someone can say this team doesn't have depth.

This is as balanced and deep of a team as we've seen here in quite some time.

10 guys can get minutes and our leading scorer comes off the bench.
VIOLENCE!

BCHoopster

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2022, 12:53:28 AM »
MU has a deep roster, but young.  Need another year to grow together. Expect big improvement when the team is juniors and seniors.  Just do not have an alpha dog as of now.  Best 2 scorers have ice in there veins, and do not know what a good or bad shot is. As Shaka says Kam is shooting the ball from half court, not winning plays.

MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2022, 07:02:59 AM »
Id have to look back, but weren't you one of the guys who continued to give Wojo a pass claiming "bare cupboard". Pretty rough to give a coach in year 2 grief for not having a strong depth. Especially when you consider he lost a very strong piece in Lewis who very few people would have thought would go pro this time last year.

I gave Wojo a pass in Year 1. He was a first-time head coach taking over a roster that I felt had shortcomings. After that, I expected him to build a team that would show progress as Marquette built itself back into a team that would be able to make NCAAT runs. It took longer that I wanted but I felt he had made progress through Year 5.

Shaka is an established coach who, again, was brought here to re-build the program. He has done a great job so far. I'm not the one who is using his current roster as an excuse for anything. If Shaka has a problem with the construction of his roster, that is on him, is it not? Who else is to "blame" (for lack of better word) for us not bringing in any ready-to-compete transfers, especially bigs and 3-point shooters?

I think Shaka is doing a very good job, and I'm excited about this season. But if the head coach is going to publicly cite a lack of this or that roster-wise, something he's done more than once, it's not the best look IMHO.

Anytime Wojo claimed "young team" or "tired legs" or whatever, he was killed for it on Scoop -- and rightly so.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

Uncle Rico

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2022, 07:33:40 AM »
I gave Wojo a pass in Year 1. He was a first-time head coach taking over a roster that I felt had shortcomings. After that, I expected him to build a team that would show progress as Marquette built itself back into a team that would be able to make NCAAT runs. It took longer that I wanted but I felt he had made progress through Year 5.

Shaka is an established coach who, again, was brought here to re-build the program. He has done a great job so far. I'm not the one who is using his current roster as an excuse for anything. If Shaka has a problem with the construction of his roster, that is on him, is it not? Who else is to "blame" (for lack of better word) for us not bringing in any ready-to-compete transfers, especially bigs and 3-point shooters?

I think Shaka is doing a very good job, and I'm excited about this season. But if the head coach is going to publicly cite a lack of this or that roster-wise, something he's done more than once, it's not the best look IMHO.

Anytime Wojo claimed "young team" or "tired legs" or whatever, he was killed for it on Scoop -- and rightly so.

You know who doesn’t make excuses?

Rick Pitino
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

panda

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2022, 08:08:43 AM »
The roster is deep because there’s not much separation between a lot of the guys. Not necessarily a negative, but as we saw at Purdue, we didn’t have anyone we could go to late in the game when we needed a bucket. Last year, we leaned heavily on Lewis and Morsell when points were needed but we don’t have that guy yet.

Miss Katie’s

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2022, 08:41:21 AM »
The roster is deep because there’s not much separation between a lot of the guys. Not necessarily a negative, but as we saw at Purdue, we didn’t have anyone we could go to late in the game when we needed a bucket. Last year, we leaned heavily on Lewis and Morsell when points were needed but we don’t have that guy yet.

Agreed.  There is no “go to guy” right now.  I think that’s one thing many had hoped would emerge from the transfer market this past off season — another experienced player who could get his like a Morsell. 

Elonsmusk

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2022, 09:29:52 AM »
I gave Wojo a pass in Year 1. He was a first-time head coach taking over a roster that I felt had shortcomings. After that, I expected him to build a team that would show progress as Marquette built itself back into a team that would be able to make NCAAT runs. It took longer that I wanted but I felt he had made progress through Year 5.

Shaka is an established coach who, again, was brought here to re-build the program. He has done a great job so far. I'm not the one who is using his current roster as an excuse for anything. If Shaka has a problem with the construction of his roster, that is on him, is it not? Who else is to "blame" (for lack of better word) for us not bringing in any ready-to-compete transfers, especially bigs and 3-point shooters?

I think Shaka is doing a very good job, and I'm excited about this season. But if the head coach is going to publicly cite a lack of this or that roster-wise, something he's done more than once, it's not the best look IMHO.

Anytime Wojo claimed "young team" or "tired legs" or whatever, he was killed for it on Scoop -- and rightly so.

A pass in Year 1??  You gave Wojo 5 years of rope!  Shaka wasn't "making excuses" or looking for "sympathy" for us losing at Purdue due to the young guys playing crunch time minutes - and not having had that experience previously.  He stated it as a fact, and as an area for those guys, and the team to grow.

And FFS Purdue hasn't lost at home since 2019, has an All-American monster in the middle, and we led the game for roughly 34 of the 40 minutes.  Wojo got a shellacking at home in the Gavitt games in Year 2, losing to Iowa 89-61 and being down 48-21 at the half.

But, Jay Wright didn't win an NCAA game until Year 7 of his career.  So. There's that.  Perhaps when Wonder-boy Wojo emerges from his Yoga retreat and takes his next head coaching job, he'll breakthrough in Year 7 and get his NCAA win and go on to a Hall of Fame coaching career like Jay Wright.

MU82

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2022, 09:40:12 AM »
A pass in Year 1??  You gave Wojo 5 years of rope!  Shaka wasn't "making excuses" or looking for "sympathy" for us losing at Purdue due to the young guys playing crunch time minutes - and not having had that experience previously.  He stated it as a fact, and as an area for those guys, and the team to grow.

And FFS Purdue hasn't lost at home since 2019, has an All-American monster in the middle, and we led the game for roughly 34 of the 40 minutes.  Wojo got a shellacking at home in the Gavitt games in Year 2, losing to Iowa 89-61 and being down 48-21 at the half.

But, Jay Wright didn't win an NCAA game until Year 7 of his career.  So. There's that.  Perhaps when Wonder-boy Wojo emerges from his Yoga retreat and takes his next head coaching job, he'll breakthrough in Year 7 and get his NCAA win and go on to a Hall of Fame coaching career like Jay Wright.

Cool.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

panda

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2022, 09:42:19 AM »
Agreed.  There is no “go to guy” right now.  I think that’s one thing many had hoped would emerge from the transfer market this past off season — another experienced player who could get his like a Morsell.

Both Lewis and Morsell could be counted on to get the tough buckets when needed. Just thinking back to the Creighton game and remembering our offense stalling until Morsell went bully ball and single handedly kept us in the game.

We just don’t have that guy who can get a bucket when needed.

Goose

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2022, 10:02:42 AM »
I think MU got the most out of Morsell and Lewis last year, especially before the end of season decline. Both played very big roles in the great run and were major part of the success. That said, I think they both became more driven by selfish goals as the season played out and played a bigger role in the swoon. I do not fault either guy for showcasing their skills, especially when MU was receiving national attention, but I believe they were not the same players the last 3-4 weeks of the season.


WithoutBias

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2022, 10:11:00 AM »
I'm starting to think anybody who leads Marquette in scoring that isn't Caucasian will be labeled as selfish and only in it for themselves at Marquette.

Goose

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2022, 10:13:24 AM »
Bias

Then you are one fxxked up dude.

muwarrior69

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Re: True Road Games in November
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2022, 10:15:28 AM »
MU has a deep roster, but young.  Need another year to grow together. Expect big improvement when the team is juniors and seniors.  Just do not have an alpha dog as of now.  Best 2 scorers have ice in there veins, and do not know what a good or bad shot is. As Shaka says Kam is shooting the ball from half court, not winning plays.

Wow! Looking toward next year and we're only 3 games in this season.