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Author Topic: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached  (Read 1908 times)

MU82

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Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« on: June 12, 2022, 01:53:49 PM »
It's a start ...

https://apnews.com/article/gun-laws-senate-bipartisan-agreement-59d553f3d1e35fdbe4930e4341e74efb

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senate bargainers announced a bipartisan framework Sunday responding to last month’s mass shootings, a noteworthy though limited breakthrough offering modest gun curbs and bolstered efforts to improve school safety and mental health programs.

The proposal falls far short of tougher steps long sought by President Joe Biden and many Democrats. Even so, the accord was embraced by Biden and enactment would signal a significant turnabout after years of gun massacres that have yielded little but stalemate in Congress.

Biden said in a statement that the framework “does not do everything that I think is needed, but it reflects important steps in the right direction, and would be the most significant gun safety legislation to pass Congress in decades.”

Given the bipartisan support, “there are no excuses for delay, and no reason why it should not quickly move through the Senate and the House,” he said.

Leaders hope to push any agreement into law rapidly — they hope this month — before the political momentum fades that has been stirred by the recent mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, and Uvalde, Texas.

In a consequential development, 20 senators, including 10 Republicans, released a statement calling for passage. That is potentially crucial because the biggest obstacle to enacting the measure is probably in the 50-50 Senate, where at least 10 GOP votes will be needed to attain the usual 60-vote threshold for approval.

“Families are scared, and it is our duty to come together and get something done that will help restore their sense of safety and security in their communities,” the lawmakers said. The group, led by Sens. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., John Cornyn, R-Texas, Thom Tillis, R-N.C., and Krysten Sinema, D-Ariz., produced the agreement after two weeks of closed-door talks.

The compromise would make the juvenile records of gun buyers under age 21 available when they undergo background checks. The suspects who killed 10 Black people at a grocery store in Buffalo and 19 students and two teachers at an elementary school in Uvalde were both 18, and many perpetrators of recent years’ mass shootings have been young.

The agreement would offer money to states to enact and put in place “red flag” laws that make it easier to temporarily take guns from people considered potentially violent, plus funds to bolster school safety and mental health programs.

Some people who informally sell guns for profit would be required to obtain federal dealers’ licenses, which means they would have to conduct background checks of buyers. Convicted domestic abusers who do not live with a former partner, such as estranged ex-boyfriends, would be barred from buying firearms, and it would be a crime for a person to legally purchase a weapon for someone who would not qualify for ownership.
"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

brewcity77

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 09:50:34 AM »
Don't see any way this thread doesn't get closed for politics, but this feels like the bill that lets Republicans run on doing something about guns without really doing anything about guns.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 09:56:17 AM »
It's not nearly enough, but I'll take any level of progress. If I end up being wrong and this makes a meaningful impact on reducing mass shootings/casualties per mass shooting, then I will be ecstatic. My only fear is that this will be used in the future to say "see we passed a law and nothing changed, this doesn't work".
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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rocket ALM surgeon

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 10:13:12 AM »
It's not nearly enough, but I'll take any level of progress. If I end up being wrong and this makes a meaningful impact on reducing mass shootings/casualties per mass shooting, then I will be ecstatic. My only fear is that this will be used in the future to say "see we passed a law and nothing changed, this doesn't work".

what will prevent criminals, gangsters, evil people, etc from getting guns and using them for bad purposes?
'Hey pal, it's the big guy, nothing urgent, article to be printed tomorrow...bwhahahaha, umm, you're all good, plausible deniability baby, but where's my cheese man

jesmu84

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 10:24:40 AM »
what will prevent criminals, gangsters, evil people, etc from getting guns and using them for bad purposes?

Exactly

We need to eliminate every law in the United States. Criminals aren't obeying them anyway. So what's the point of any law existing?

wadesworld

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 10:26:09 AM »
what will prevent criminals, gangsters, evil people, etc from getting guns and using them for bad purposes?

Much stricter gun laws than what are being proposed would help.

What prevents those types of people from getting them and using them for bad purposes elsewhere in the world?
Black Lives Matter

rocket ALM surgeon

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 10:46:07 AM »
   "What prevents those types of people from getting them and using them for bad purposes elsewhere in the world?"


   the fear of punishment, incarceration or worse
'Hey pal, it's the big guy, nothing urgent, article to be printed tomorrow...bwhahahaha, umm, you're all good, plausible deniability baby, but where's my cheese man

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 10:48:23 AM »
what will prevent criminals, gangsters, evil people, etc from getting guns and using them for bad purposes?

A select few, nothing will stop them. But we can put up economic, legal, and cultural barriers that make it increasingly difficult for them to gain access to weapons and may be enough to either deter them altogether, delay them long enough that friends/family/coworkers/law enforcement are able to see the signs and intervene, or at least funnel them away from AR-15s and their like and towards less efficient weapons so that the body counts are lower.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 10:49:46 AM »
   "What prevents those types of people from getting them and using them for bad purposes elsewhere in the world?"


   the fear of punishment, incarceration or worse

We have the highest incarceration rate in the developed world. So shouldn't this mean that we have the lowest rates of gun violence?
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2022, 10:51:33 AM »
We have the highest incarceration rate in the developed world. So shouldn't this mean that we have the lowest rates of gun violence?


His talking points get confronted in every gun debate topic, and he still can't coherently address them.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

brewcity77

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 10:54:25 AM »
   "What prevents those types of people from getting them and using them for bad purposes elsewhere in the world?"


   the fear of punishment, incarceration or worse

It's the gun laws that stops them. It certainly isn't the fear of incarceration rates that are lower than the ones in the US. That's just silly.
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Pakuni

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2022, 11:00:12 AM »
   "What prevents those types of people from getting them and using them for bad purposes elsewhere in the world?"


   the fear of punishment, incarceration or worse

How's that working out for us?

Incarceration rate (per 100,000):
USA - 629
Australia - 167
New Zealand - 164
France - 119
Spain - 113
Canada - 104
Germany - 70
Japan - 37

Homicide rate (per 100,000):
USA - 4.96
Australia - 0.89
New Zealand - 0.74
France - 1.2
Spain - 0.62
Canada - 1.76
Germany - 0.95
Japan - 0.26

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 11:04:54 AM by Pakuni »

rocket ALM surgeon

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2022, 12:42:35 PM »
It's the gun laws that stops them. It certainly isn't the fear of incarceration rates that are lower than the ones in the US. That's just silly.

  right, but we have a constitution which if followed, will be very difficult to get around.  you see what's going on with roe v wade?  the violent protests and all.  i'd hate to see the reaction if 2nd amendment were changed.  r v w isn't even a constitutional right and they've already tried to assassinate a scotus judge.  every change to gun rights will be challenged by someone at the scotus level.  unless they pack the court during a certain administration, 2nd amendment will not be changed and even then, there are a lot of guns held outside by people on both sides of the aisle who rely on them for protection.  yes, many law abiding inner city people can't or don't want to wait an hour or more for police to come to their aid. 

   
'Hey pal, it's the big guy, nothing urgent, article to be printed tomorrow...bwhahahaha, umm, you're all good, plausible deniability baby, but where's my cheese man

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2022, 12:51:59 PM »
  right, but we have a constitution which if followed, will be very difficult to get around.  you see what's going on with roe v wade?  the violent protests and all.  i'd hate to see the reaction if 2nd amendment were changed.  r v w isn't even a constitutional right and they've already tried to assassinate a scotus judge.  every change to gun rights will be challenged by someone at the scotus level.  unless they pack the court during a certain administration, 2nd amendment will not be changed and even then, there are a lot of guns held outside by people on both sides of the aisle who rely on them for protection.  yes, many law abiding inner city people can't or don't want to wait an hour or more for police to come to their aid.   


There are firearms regulations in place already that fall well short of 2nd amendment violations.  Rights aren't absolute you know.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2022, 01:49:13 PM »
  right, but we have a constitution which if followed, will be very difficult to get around.  you see what's going on with roe v wade?  the violent protests and all.  i'd hate to see the reaction if 2nd amendment were changed.  r v w isn't even a constitutional right and they've already tried to assassinate a scotus judge.  every change to gun rights will be challenged by someone at the scotus level.  unless they pack the court during a certain administration, 2nd amendment will not be changed and even then, there are a lot of guns held outside by people on both sides of the aisle who rely on them for protection.  yes, many law abiding inner city people can't or don't want to wait an hour or more for police to come to their aid. 

 

Constitution on guns:

WELL REGULATED

I do like how you've conveniently ignored the fact that even though America has BY FAR the highest incarceration rate in the free world, we also have BY FAR the highest rate of gun violence.

Anyway, even if the gun-responsibility legislation that comes out of this bipartisan negotiation doesn't go as far as I'd like it to, I still view it as a good thing. I prefer human lives over "Guns For Everybody!" and I believe even a watered-down new law will save living, breathing, American lives.

Plus, even if it's fleeting, it's nice to see 10 Republican politicians and 10 Democratic politicians negotiate in good faith and agree on something important. Baby steps, and all that.
"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

brewcity77

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2022, 01:58:50 PM »
  right, but we have a constitution which if followed, will be very difficult to get around.  you see what's going on with roe v wade?  the violent protests and all.  i'd hate to see the reaction if 2nd amendment were changed.  r v w isn't even a constitutional right and they've already tried to assassinate a scotus judge.  every change to gun rights will be challenged by someone at the scotus level.  unless they pack the court during a certain administration, 2nd amendment will not be changed and even then, there are a lot of guns held outside by people on both sides of the aisle who rely on them for protection.  yes, many law abiding inner city people can't or don't want to wait an hour or more for police to come to their aid.

Following the Constitution would mean getting rid of all guns used for hunting, self defense, home defense, or collecting. The only purpose to have guns according to the Second Amendment is in service of a "well-regulated militia." I guess textualism doesn't apply once gun lobbying dollars get involved.
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rocket ALM surgeon

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2022, 02:14:14 PM »

There are firearms regulations in place already that fall well short of 2nd amendment violations.  Rights aren't absolute you know.

   all talking points...yawn
'Hey pal, it's the big guy, nothing urgent, article to be printed tomorrow...bwhahahaha, umm, you're all good, plausible deniability baby, but where's my cheese man

lawdog77

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2022, 02:17:39 PM »
Following the Constitution would mean getting rid of all guns used for hunting, self defense, home defense, or collecting. The only purpose to have guns according to the Second Amendment is in service of a "well-regulated militia." I guess textualism doesn't apply once gun lobbying dollars get involved.
Uh no, not the only purpose, but taken literally, it's the only RIGHT. Everything else would be a privilege, as numerous cases have held (especially hunting).

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2022, 02:20:58 PM »
Constitution on guns:

WELL REGULATED


This has become a talking point lately that I think is pretty much in error.  The "well regulated" statement is referring to a "well regulated militia," which basically means that the states have a right to keep an able bodied militia in place.  It most certainly does not mean the right to bear arms, because in the very next clause says "not to be infringed."
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2022, 02:21:33 PM »
   all talking points...yawn


Which you still never address.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2022, 02:49:48 PM »

This has become a talking point lately that I think is pretty much in error.  The "well regulated" statement is referring to a "well regulated militia," which basically means that the states have a right to keep an able bodied militia in place.  It most certainly does not mean the right to bear arms, because in the very next clause says "not to be infringed."

There are plenty who would disagree with this, but I don't want this to be a multiple-page back and forth, so you can have the last word if you'd like.
"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2022, 03:00:46 PM »
There are plenty who would disagree with this, but I don't want this to be a multiple-page back and forth, so you can have the last word if you'd like.

I think you are misunderstanding a couple of concepts here.

It literally says "well regulated militia," set up by the states, as opposed to a private militia of some sort.  That just does not mean the right to bear arms is to be "well regulated."  It is a completely different meaning of the phrase than you are using.

Now the dissenters in DC v. Heller were arguing that you can't separate the militia from the right to bear arms phrase.  In other words, ones right to bear arms is inherently connected to the states ability to create a "well regulated militia." 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

lawdog77

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2022, 03:10:47 PM »
I think you are misunderstanding a couple of concepts here.

It literally says "well regulated militia," set up by the states, as opposed to a private militia of some sort.  That just does not mean the right to bear arms is to be "well regulated."  It is a completely different meaning of the phrase than you are using.

Now the dissenters in DC v. Heller were arguing that you can't separate the militia from the right to bear arms phrase.  In other words, ones right to bear arms is inherently connected to the states ability to create a "well regulated militia."
Yes, and in the 18th century regulated meant , organized, trained, disciplined, not that there were "regulations" as we know the term today.

User Name #251

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2022, 03:29:01 PM »
Yes, and in the 18th century regulated meant , organized, trained, disciplined, not that there were "regulations" as we know the term today.

Bingo.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bipartisan gun responsibility measure reached
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2022, 03:41:15 PM »
Don't see any way this thread doesn't get closed for politics, but this feels like the bill that lets Republicans run on doing something about guns without really doing anything about guns.

This post (first reply in the thread) should have locked it.

 

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