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Author Topic: Poor LBJ  (Read 2616 times)

lawdog77

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2022, 07:37:28 AM »
Your non-answer tells me you are ok buying product from China and supporting politicians that do business with China.
Most of the politicians taking a "stance" against China are right of center, so Rocket is probably supporting them.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/30/republicans-see-china-more-negatively-than-democrats-even-as-criticism-rises-in-both-parties/

User Name #251

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2022, 07:43:27 AM »
  the point is 82, i criticize china vociferously and confidently.  i don't make 10's of millions of $$ from china.  i have no voice like the NBA or la brum or bill gates to make any difference and you know that.  you pose a question to me that you know the answer to but what it tells me is that you are ok with china hating on LGBTQ and the slavery and human rights abuses they hold over the uyghurs and their populace...congratulations biggot

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."  (Matthew 7: 3-5)
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Pakuni

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2022, 08:14:07 AM »
Most of the politicians taking a "stance" against China are right of center, so Rocket is probably supporting them.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/30/republicans-see-china-more-negatively-than-democrats-even-as-criticism-rises-in-both-parties/

That's not at all what that poll says.

lawdog77

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2022, 08:15:50 AM »
That's not at all what that poll says.
Sorry. Meant two different points. That poll is that republicans have a less favorable opinion of china.  The first point was that many far right  lawmakers have a tougher stance on China (such as Marco Rubio).

Goose

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2022, 08:25:09 AM »
Our addiction to China can be blamed on both parties. Our government allowed China to be our supply chain and it really is on everyone involved over the past thirty years. I make living off of helping companies buy from SE Asia, and yet, I have voiced my concerns for over twenty years. I wrote letters to political officials, major business networks and manufacturing organizations around the USA and heard crickets. If it were not for national security, I would be happy to see all of them have egg on their face, but the problem is far bigger than patio furniture being delayed getting to Walmart.

User Name #251

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2022, 08:29:32 AM »
Our addiction to China can be blamed on both parties. Our government allowed China to be our supply chain and it really is on everyone involved over the past thirty years. I make living off of helping companies buy from SE Asia, and yet, I have voiced my concerns for over twenty years. I wrote letters to political officials, major business networks and manufacturing organizations around the USA and heard crickets. If it were not for national security, I would be happy to see all of them have egg on their face, but the problem is far bigger than patio furniture being delayed getting to Walmart.

Yep yep.  Both parties supported it because Americans want inexpensive stuff - whether its businesses wanting cheap labor or consumers wanting the cheap product of that labor.

To be fair to everyone, economics rarely loses.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

lawdog77

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2022, 08:52:59 AM »
Our addiction to China can be blamed on both parties. Our government allowed China to be our supply chain and it really is on everyone involved over the past thirty years. I make living off of helping companies buy from SE Asia, and yet, I have voiced my concerns for over twenty years. I wrote letters to political officials, major business networks and manufacturing organizations around the USA and heard crickets. If it were not for national security, I would be happy to see all of them have egg on their face, but the problem is far bigger than patio furniture being delayed getting to Walmart.
Agreed. Most don't want to know how the sausage gets made.

Jockey

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2022, 09:09:11 AM »
Yep yep.  Both parties supported it because Americans want inexpensive stuff - whether its businesses wanting cheap labor or consumers wanting the cheap product of that labor.

To be fair to everyone, economics rarely loses.

Unions were united 100% against it. But who wants to listen to the working people of this country? There were mega $$$ available to American companies.

While some Dems supported it, my guess is that the majority did not.

forgetful

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2022, 10:00:39 AM »
Unions were united 100% against it. But who wants to listen to the working people of this country? There were mega $$$ available to American companies.

While some Dems supported it, my guess is that the majority did not.

I was going to say something similar. The China problem is a direct result of capitalism unrestrained. It is the expected outcome from such an economic system.

More Marxist/socialist principles like labor unions were adamantly opposed and fought the move to China. 

It’s less a political issue then economic. The only way to prevent it would have been pretty overt socialist protectionist policies that most Americans opposed.

User Name #251

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2022, 10:02:02 AM »
Unions were united 100% against it. But who wants to listen to the working people of this country? There were mega $$$ available to American companies.

While some Dems supported it, my guess is that the majority did not.

Oh I think that is incredibly doubtful.  By the time we really started relying on China, in the mid-90s, unionization rates were down near 20% and half of that was white collar unions like teachers.  The Democrats in general weren't listening much to the "working people" at that time either.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2022, 10:05:13 AM »
Just came out of a presentation at my trade show.  Chief Procurement Officer for Prysmian Cable Group.  (30,000 worldwide employees, based in Cincinnati).  He ran the timeline of why the supply chain became super challenging and really it is just the perfect storm. From Feb 2020 through present things popped up every few months and we are still feeling the blowback.

1.COVID. Remote work. Global Cyber attack. 2.  Transport trucking shortage. Lumber pricing   Labor.
3  Gulf Freeze. Steel shortage  Labor
4. Omicron surge. COVID Relief Bill. West Coast Port Congestion  Labor 
5. . Russia invasion of Ukraine.   China '0" COVID policy. Potential WC Port strike. Labor

Goose

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2022, 12:00:22 PM »
China did more to help the quality of life for low and low middle income families than any government program could ever provide. It allowed a very large portion of our country to buy goods that would have been too expensive if produced in the USA. We are going to pay a hefty price for this economic shift, and it will be interesting to see how people handle it. I am afraid that low to low middle income earners are going to suffer a great deal in the next couple of years.

Pakuni

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2022, 12:07:49 PM »
China did more to help the quality of life for low and low middle income families than any government program could ever provide.

By depressing their wages and taking their jobs?
Yeah, prices for consumer goods are lower, but all the evidence shows the rise of China has had a negative effect on lower and middle class families in the U.S.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/11/02/1050999300/how-american-leaders-failed-to-help-workers-survive-the-china-shock

https://wol.iza.org/articles/trade-and-labor-makets-lessons-from-chinas-rise/long


lawdog77

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2022, 12:20:32 PM »
By depressing their wages and taking their jobs?
Yeah, prices for consumer goods are lower, but all the evidence shows the rise of China has had a negative effect on lower and middle class families in the U.S.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/11/02/1050999300/how-american-leaders-failed-to-help-workers-survive-the-china-shock

https://wol.iza.org/articles/trade-and-labor-makets-lessons-from-chinas-rise/long
Agree. I think Goose may be a little biased on this issue.

Goose

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2022, 12:57:22 PM »
pakuni

Have you read any of my posts on China and how it has impacted our economy over the past 25 years? I stated that allowing for cheaper good came with a hefty cost to many Americans. I am 100% for a global economy but have felt for a long time that corporate America (with government support) did a major disservice to our country.

I understand losing jobs to China, I lost mine and most of 90% my life savings when our industry moved to China virtually overnight in 2000. A multi billion dollar industry left MKE in short order and there was not one local or state politician that gave it a second thought.

My comment on making goods affordable for more people is accurate, but I still believe it was a major misstep by our government allowing it to happen. Our leaders allowed it to happen, closed their eyes and made large sums of money by doing so. I will never forget the day that former President Bill Clinton roaming the lobby of the Grand Hyatt in HK hours before he spoke on globalization to group of finance guys. The local newspaper reported he was paid in excess of a million dollars for the speech.

Pakuni

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2022, 01:05:03 PM »
pakuni

Have you read any of my posts on China and how it has impacted our economy over the past 25 years? I stated that allowing for cheaper good came with a hefty cost to many Americans. I am 100% for a global economy but have felt for a long time that corporate America (with government support) did a major disservice to our country.

I understand losing jobs to China, I lost mine and most of 90% my life savings when our industry moved to China virtually overnight in 2000. A multi billion dollar industry left MKE in short order and there was not one local or state politician that gave it a second thought.

My comment on making goods affordable for more people is accurate, but I still believe it was a major misstep by our government allowing it to happen. Our leaders allowed it to happen, closed their eyes and made large sums of money by doing so. I will never forget the day that former President Bill Clinton roaming the lobby of the Grand Hyatt in HK hours before he spoke on globalization to group of finance guys. The local newspaper reported he was paid in excess of a million dollars for the speech.

Apologies, Goose, if your previous posts have said something different than what you wrote today. I have not read all your posts on the subject, but was responding only to your statement that "China did more to help the quality of life for low and low middle income families than any government program could ever provide." I believe the opposite to be true. China's economic growth has been a boon for the upper classes in this country, but not so much the lower and working classes.

TSmith34

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2022, 01:20:17 PM »
pakuni

Have you read any of my posts on China and how it has impacted our economy over the past 25 years? I stated that allowing for cheaper good came with a hefty cost to many Americans. I am 100% for a global economy but have felt for a long time that corporate America (with government support) did a major disservice to our country.

I understand losing jobs to China, I lost mine and most of 90% my life savings when our industry moved to China virtually overnight in 2000. A multi billion dollar industry left MKE in short order and there was not one local or state politician that gave it a second thought.

My comment on making goods affordable for more people is accurate, but I still believe it was a major misstep by our government allowing it to happen. Our leaders allowed it to happen, closed their eyes and made large sums of money by doing so. I will never forget the day that former President Bill Clinton roaming the lobby of the Grand Hyatt in HK hours before he spoke on globalization to group of finance guys. The local newspaper reported he was paid in excess of a million dollars for the speech.

I am not sure I understand your train of thought here. Capitalist private companies decided to move to China, no? How would you have liked the government to stop them? Tax policy? Tariffs? Something else?
Pooba of Biggot Buffons

Goose

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2022, 01:53:12 PM »
T

I think the biggest missteps was the government underestimated the amount of jobs that would be lost and the type of jobs that would be replacing the lost jobs and how reliant we were to China for real stuff, not just happy meal toys. I am 100% in favor of free market trade and corporate America did what was best for them and their shareholders and I have no problem with that at all. That being said, it still can be a disservice for the long haul, which I believe to be true.

As for your bolding my comment on our industry being lost in short order, there definitely were things that the city and state could have done, but that is not my biggest complaint. Our elected officials truthfully were asleep at switch and no idea that an industry that employed over 90% minority workers essentially closed their doors before the elected officials knew what happened.
Truth be told, any support the city or state would have provided have been wasted money, but they had no idea that would be the case.

As for bolded major misstep by our government comment, my biggest issue is that I think our leaders sat on their hands for the last 25 years and did nothing in terms of planning on how a new economy would like or function. I think they, like corporate, America got complacent and never put "what if" plans into place. IMO, they kicked the can down the road and were hoping someone would deal with a problem if one ever happened.

Just to be clear, I am not in favor of tariffs or government intervention. I am in favor of our leaders knowing how to navigate a situation or a crisis. IMO, if we do not know to move goods from China to the USA after nearly thirty years someone has not done their jobs. If we did not know how reliant we were on chips from SE Asia until the pandemic hit, someone was not doing their job.



MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2022, 02:35:22 PM »
If you've never been to Dealey Plaza and the 6th Floor Museum, be prepared to be moved. I'm old enough to remember November 22. The 4 hours in the Museum and Plaza had the hair on the back of my neck standing up the entire time.
   
I took a break from the show and walked around Dealy Plaza and JFK Memorial.  (6th Floor museum unfortunately closed Mondays and Tuesdays.).

Spot on with being moved.  The assination happened literally a day short of 6 years exactly before my birthday but I know all the details.  Seeing the X's on the street where he was hit, the Zapruder location, the Grassy Knoll and the 6th floor window is very somber. And the Kennedy quotes from the speech he was supposed to give that day are just as moving.. 


JWags85

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2022, 02:39:17 PM »
T

I think the biggest missteps was the government underestimated the amount of jobs that would be lost and the type of jobs that would be replacing the lost jobs and how reliant we were to China for real stuff, not just happy meal toys. I am 100% in favor of free market trade and corporate America did what was best for them and their shareholders and I have no problem with that at all. That being said, it still can be a disservice for the long haul, which I believe to be true.

As for your bolding my comment on our industry being lost in short order, there definitely were things that the city and state could have done, but that is not my biggest complaint. Our elected officials truthfully were asleep at switch and no idea that an industry that employed over 90% minority workers essentially closed their doors before the elected officials knew what happened.
Truth be told, any support the city or state would have provided have been wasted money, but they had no idea that would be the case.

As for bolded major misstep by our government comment, my biggest issue is that I think our leaders sat on their hands for the last 25 years and did nothing in terms of planning on how a new economy would like or function. I think they, like corporate, America got complacent and never put "what if" plans into place. IMO, they kicked the can down the road and were hoping someone would deal with a problem if one ever happened.

Just to be clear, I am not in favor of tariffs or government intervention. I am in favor of our leaders knowing how to navigate a situation or a crisis. IMO, if we do not know to move goods from China to the USA after nearly thirty years someone has not done their jobs. If we did not know how reliant we were on chips from SE Asia until the pandemic hit, someone was not doing their job.

Good stuff here.

You have longer experience with it, but I also think officials, and business leaders, weren't aware of the pitfalls of knockoff and patent infringement as well.  Beyond just pricing and cost, firms and factories ripping off products and processes leave you with limited recourse to walk back from it.

We had 2 such instances. 

One, a customer of ours came to us complaining about a viewer we made that basically broke.  And the customer service was terrible.  We asked to see it and found it was a cheap knockoff of our patented viewer.  They were telling people they were representatives of ours when selling them.  The actual viewers were made and assembled here in the US.  Consequently, every customer who had a knockoff was no longer interested in the viewers in any way and assumed there was dishonesty going on from everyone.

Second, we had a product with a number of components made and assembled in China.  After about 2 years, we discovered some extremely shady business practices and basically caught them red handed trying to reverse-engineer the entire device, starting from the parts they made.  We yanked all business and set about to do it state side.  Unfortunately, it increased a $15 item to closer to $25.  We lost a good 80% of our volume.  And we don't have any direct competitors for the final product, they just decided a 66% increase in price for an add item on was no longer worth it.  We can move production elsewhere to try and mitigate costs, but that takes time and you could lose your customer base in the meantime.

Putting the toothpaste back in the tube is extremely difficult.  If everything was protected and that was just production, you could make it work, potentially.  But if there are people who have stolen your IP ready to step into the void when you move out, its very tough to maneuver.

TSmith34

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2022, 03:49:45 PM »
T

I think the biggest missteps was the government underestimated the amount of jobs that would be lost and the type of jobs that would be replacing the lost jobs and how reliant we were to China for real stuff, not just happy meal toys. I am 100% in favor of free market trade and corporate America did what was best for them and their shareholders and I have no problem with that at all. That being said, it still can be a disservice for the long haul, which I believe to be true.

As for your bolding my comment on our industry being lost in short order, there definitely were things that the city and state could have done, but that is not my biggest complaint. Our elected officials truthfully were asleep at switch and no idea that an industry that employed over 90% minority workers essentially closed their doors before the elected officials knew what happened.
Truth be told, any support the city or state would have provided have been wasted money, but they had no idea that would be the case.

As for bolded major misstep by our government comment, my biggest issue is that I think our leaders sat on their hands for the last 25 years and did nothing in terms of planning on how a new economy would like or function. I think they, like corporate, America got complacent and never put "what if" plans into place. IMO, they kicked the can down the road and were hoping someone would deal with a problem if one ever happened.

Just to be clear, I am not in favor of tariffs or government intervention. I am in favor of our leaders knowing how to navigate a situation or a crisis. IMO, if we do not know to move goods from China to the USA after nearly thirty years someone has not done their jobs. If we did not know how reliant we were on chips from SE Asia until the pandemic hit, someone was not doing their job.

Ok Goose, but you didn't say how you think government should have intervened; "planning on how a new economy would look" is extremely vague, as is "knowing how to navigate a crisis".

If you think government is at fault, even partially, what concrete actions do you believe they should have taken that they didn't?
Pooba of Biggot Buffons

dgies9156

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2022, 05:02:13 PM »
OK, I totally agree with Brother Goose. The classic was Walmart, whose everyday low prices were obtained by shifting production of everyday goods from the U.S. to China to get price points that fit into their sales mission. The result was that too many U.S. workers were put out of work.

I get that Walmart sometimes is the whipping boy for consumer good globalization. But I really find what their global procurement center in Tianjin, China did to U.S. production to be unconscionable. They're proud of the fact that they "gave the working man a raise," but completely ignore the fact that they put the workingman out of work!

Admittedly, relatively few people think through this problem. Nimbyism is alive and well in America and will be until your back yard is affected.
 
One classic situation was Walmart expanding in Dubuque, Iowa. For decades, Dubuque was a labor town dominated by the UAW and UFCW. Everyone was unionized. So when Walmart came in, organized labor urged a boycott. The boycott was so effective Walmart abandoned their original store for a Superstore across the street.

When I noted that we refused to shop at Walmart because of what they did to too many American workers, my Notre Dame educated relative looked at me and said, "must be nice to have enough money to have ethics..." I admit, more of the goods we use are China made that we'd like, but my wife and I try to buy American whenever possible.

On another point brought up in this room, regarding criticizing China because we fail to see our own failings -- give me a break gang. Labor practices that we outlawed a century ago are prevalent there. Things like worker safety, 40 hour work weeks, child labor are hardly the norm here but prevalent there. And for those of you concerned about polluting the environment, the United States is light years ahead of China in environmental preservation, emissions controls and environmental regulation. It's not even close.

Look, we have problems in this country. Lots of them. And we know it -- both sides are quick to point out each other's failings. But we're still the gold standard among countries and we're the society to which many people throughout the world aspire. If you don't believe me, then why are we having problems on our southern border?

jesmu84

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2022, 05:11:50 PM »
1. Why should Walmart care? They're successful and their shareholders are getting paid.

2. Gold standard based on what metric?

Goose

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2022, 05:12:43 PM »
dgies

I started doing sales calls to Walmart buying office when it was called PREL and had a dozen folks in their HK office. Two years later they had offices in Taipei, Shenzhen and Tainjin. While my family benefited from their expansion, it not take a Harvard MBA to understand the long term consequences on the US economy.


JWags85

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Re: Poor LBJ
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2022, 05:46:13 PM »
1. Why should Walmart care? They're successful and their shareholders are getting paid.

2. Gold standard based on what metric?

The floor is much higher in the US.  There are myriad problems here, but even the lower 25% have it far far better than many of the countries they immigrate from.  Thats not to say its perfect and above all other countries, but there is a reason for mass immigration here.

Business opportunity is also substantially higher.  I know at least a dozen successful business people from fairly high standard of living European and Asian countries that came to the US for business opportunities.

Look at the top 20 countries in the world by population.  Which would you rather live in than the US, upbringing and patriotism aside.  Germany and maybe Japan?  The latter of which is incredibly expensive all over, even by US standards.