Explosions in Kiev

[MuggsyB]

This has the potential to be a complete s-show.  "Sanctions" need to be destroying their energy sector and currency immediately along with their cyber capabilities.  We should have never gotten to this point.

[Billy Hoyle]

This has the potential to be a complete s-show.  "Sanctions" need to be destroying their energy sector and currency immediately along with their cyber capabilities.  We should have never gotten to this point.

Agreed. Ignoring the annexation of Crimea was the spark Putin needed to feel emboldened.

Let's see if we can have a thread about a major geopolitical issue without partisan bickering and attacks. IMO, this is the result of bipartisan failure by the last three administrations.

Edit: last four if you consider the invasion of Georgia too.

[MU82]

IBTL

[Pakuni]

Billy rushing in to blame the black guy is the most on-brand thing ever.
This isn't the fault of anyone but Vladimir Putin.

[Billy Hoyle]

Billy rushing in to blame the black guy is the most on-brand thing ever.

Wow, playing the race card. I thought you were someone who could engage in educated, mature dialogue. Obviously I was wrong about you. I guess you were aligned with the "let Putin do what he wants" administration of the last four years.

Tell me why ignoring the annexation of Crimea was the right move and didn't provide a huge win to and momentum for Putin.

Obama's Director of National Intelligence and his assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs (a Biden nominee too) must be a racists against his old Boss considering they admits they screwed up with Crimea.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10542055/Obamas-Director-National-Intelligence-says-wish-aggressive-Russia.html

[MuggsyB]

And you guy is their biggest cheerleader. A true traitor.

WTtF are you talking about?    How about actually having a discussion about this and looking at this situation rationally and how we and the Western World should respond?

[Pakuni]

Wow, playing the race card. I thought you were someone who could engage in educated, mature dialogue. Obviously I was wrong about you. I guess you were aligned with the "let Putin do what he wants" administration of the last four years.

Tell me why ignoring the annexation of Crimea was the right move and didn't provide a huge win to and momentum for Putin.

If it walks like a duck...

Anyhow, your question is based on an entirely false premise. The annexation of Crimea not only wasn't ignored, it was met with widespread condemnation and harsh sanctions from both the US and EU.
What more would you want? Full-scale war?

[MuggsyB]

Billy rushing in to blame the black guy is the most on-brand thing ever.
This isn't the fault of anyone but Vladimir Putin.

You're better than this Pakumi.  Are you saying that particular decision of doing nothing cannot be criticized because of the race of our President in 2014?  Do you see any fking difference between how Chamberlain reacted to Hitler aa opposed to Winston Churchill?  Far more important than Putin is how the Chinese government is processing this whole thing.

[MuggsyB]

If it walks like a duck...

Anyhow, your question is based on an entirely false premise. The annexation of Crimea not only wasn't ignored, it was met with widespread condemnation and harsh sanctions from both the US and EU.
What more would you want? Full-scale war?

Words mean didly squat.  Now in fairness this b-crap started well before Obama and during the Clinton administration and continued during the Bush administration.

[Billy Hoyle]

If it walks like a duck...

Anyhow, your question is based on an entirely false premise. The annexation of Crimea not only wasn't ignored, it was met with widespread condemnation and harsh sanctions from both the US and EU.
What more would you want? Full-scale war?

I forgot I wasn't allowed to disagree with decisions made by a leader, whose Inaugural Ball I was blessed to attend in 2009, because of the color of that leader's skin.

Providing weapons to Ukraine is what I would have supported. Condemnation and sanctions don't mean anything to a despot who views the fall of the USSR as the worst development in world history. We didn't need war, but we needed to take stronger action.

[MuggsyB]

The focus needs to be Cyber.  We are more than capable of taking out their power grid, especially with our allies.

[tower912]

Putin is the enemy.   Always has been, always will be.

[jesmu84]

Try to avoid hurting the Russian population directly.

Freeze all assets of every Russian oligarch in every NATO country

[Uncle Rico]

Just a sad day.  I don't think this is the end of global conflict and will just embolden other nations to act. 

Ukraine and the Baltic States have had this threat over their heads for decades.  I can't imagine living in that world knowing this day may come

[tower912]

It is is more likely that Russia uses a cyber attack against the US (other than their propaganda farms).  And Rico, the last guy was actively in Putin's front pocket.   Still praising his leadership.

[Uncle Rico]

It is is more likely that Russia uses a cyber attack against the US (other than their propaganda farms).  And Rico, the last guy was actively in Putin's front pocket.   Still praising his leadership.

Truth is, No president has effectively deterred Putin since he rose to power.  His dream is a recreation not of the USSR but Tsarist Russia when it comes to frontiers

[tower912]

Agreed.   Everyone has tried some combination of boxing him in and accommodating him.   Russia is too big and has too many nukes to actually attack. So how do you manage the biggest bully in the world?   

Sucking up to him and praising his leadership is not something that occurs to most people.

[Hards Alumni]

The focus needs to be Cyber.  We are more than capable of taking out their power grid, especially with our allies.

We'd lose because we have far more to lose.

Just a sad day.  I don't think this is the end of global conflict and will just embolden other nations to act. 

Ukraine and the Baltic States have had this threat over their heads for decades.  I can't imagine living in that world knowing this day may come

The Baltic states are NATO states.  If they're invaded, then all bets are off.

Words mean didly squat.  Now in fairness this b-crap started well before Obama and during the Clinton administration and continued during the Bush administration.

Attacking Russian troops could cause a nuclear war.  You know what is better than nuclear war?  Ukraine being part of Russia.  It sucks, but this is how the world has been since 1945.  There will be no open conflict between nuclear nations.  For the last 80 years, there have been proxy wars fought throughout the world instead of nuclear ones.  This morning the Russian markets donked off 40% in a matter of hours.  That is going to hurt.  The value of the ruble is tanking.  That hurts.  There is literally nothing that the world can do militarily without creating a world wide nuclear crisis.  Let the financial pain be felt, and hopefully the Russian people get sick of Mr. Putin and decide on their own that they've had enough.

China won't call the invasion what it is because they're planning to use the exact same excuse to grab Taiwan. 

[Pakuni]

Providing weapons to Ukraine is what I would have supported. Condemnation and sanctions don't mean anything to a despot who views the fall of the USSR as the worst development in world history. We didn't need war, but we needed to take stronger action.

How has providing weapons to the Ukraine served as a deterrent to what we're seeing now?
I'd suggest you're living in an alternate reality if you think giving the Ukrainians a handful of missiles and small arms would have prevented Putin from moving ahead with a plan he's been building toward for more than two decades.
You claim to not want to play politics, but your first (and only, so far) instinct here has been to point fingers at American politicians based on a false premise, while giving a complete pass to those solely responsible. .

Again, no one is to blame here but Putin. Not Bush. Not Clinton. Not Obama. Not Trump. Not Biden.
This is 100% on Russia.
And the kind of finger-pointing and infighting being promoted by the right in this country only serves Putin's interests.

[MuggsyB]

No one is actually blaming anyone but Putin.  If you don't want to discuss what could have been done by us or our Euro allies to have prevented this that's fine.  It's about what we do here and now. It also has huge ramifications with regards to China and Iran.

[tower912]

Putin has always been the enemy.   

[ZiggysFryBoy]

No one is actually blaming anyone but Putin.  If you don't want to discuss what could have been done by us or our Euro allies to have prevented this that's fine.  It's about what we do here and now. It also has huge ramifications with regards to China and Iran.

Amen, Muggs.

This is very scary and has huge global implications, probably the most severe since December 1999.

[jesmu84]

No one is actually blaming anyone but Putin.  If you don't want to discuss what could have been done by us or our Euro allies to have prevented this that's fine.  It's about what we do here and now. It also has huge ramifications with regards to China and Iran.

Personally, I want to avoid nuclear war.

Sanctions are really the only option now.

[Pakuni]

No one is actually blaming anyone but Putin.  If you don't want to discuss what could have been done by us or our Euro allies to have prevented this that's fine.  It's about what we do here and now. It also has huge ramifications with regards to China and Iran.

Literally Billy's opening salvo:

"Ignoring the annexation of Crimea was the spark Putin needed to feel emboldened."
This isn't only based on a couple of false premises, but is ignorant of history and the fact that Putin has been openly planning this for 20 years.
What's Muggsy's solution here?

[MuggsyB]

Putin has always been the enemy.

He has and  the current"sanctions" aren't going to work.  We have all known his exact goals for quite some time.  This has to be prevented and unfortunately it will be really ugly.  Sending weapons to Ukraine  and setting up refugee camps isn't a particularly strong response.  If we won't pump oil here can we still realistically cripple him economically?