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forgetful

Quote from: JWags85 on February 01, 2023, 02:56:55 PM
Could they though?  Has anyone successful sued a pastor or church for urging someone to pray away a treatable sickness that lead to death?

There is a key difference. Churches/Pastors can point to legitimate religious beliefs (i.e. they truly believe that God can cure the disease). Parents though have been charged and convicted for "faith healing" leading to their children's death.

For Tucker et al., I think if someone looked into them, you could find documentation that they do not believe what they are saying, but are saying it anyway. In that regard, they are knowingly lying to people about something that can/did contribute to their death. I think that would be enough in a civil case, not sure about in a criminal case, although cases against parents that were successful could be precedent.


TSmith34, Inc.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 01, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
Much like the Dominion Voting Machine lawsuit where Fox is being sued for $1.5bil for libel and most expect Fox to lose. 
I suspect the pharmaceuticals companies can sue for the same reason.
Yes, exactly. Once Fox/OAN/Newsmax et al saw that there could be financial repercussions from their knowingly lying and causing harm to Dominion, they shut down their lies.

On the vaccine side, I said here long ago that their calculus is that the upside of keeping their viewers perpetually in a state of misinformed rage and grievance is far greater to them than the downside of killing a few hundred thousand of them. This will continue to be true until they face the same sort of repercussions as they face with Dominion.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Pakuni

Quote from: forgetful on February 01, 2023, 02:44:14 PM
I know it would be hard to prosecute so you couldn't bring a criminal case easily (e.g. negligent manslaughter), but I'd love to see someone bring a civil case against them, saying that they knowingly lied to their audience and that it directly led to the death of a loved one who died, because they listened to them.

I would think you'd have a chance in a civil suit. And maybe, we'd see some of these political opportunists think a bit before intentionally spreading dangerous propaganda.

Alas, Tucker already has proven the "nobody with functioning brain cells believes me" defense is a winner.

When Tucker Carlson says on his show "[r]emember the facts of the story; these are undisputed" no reasonable person would believe that he was about to state facts. At least, that was Tucker Carlson's own argument in defending himself from a libel suit.
That argument convinced U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil, who dismissed a lawsuit brought by model and actress Karen McDougal. McDougal sued for defamation, alleging Carlson baselessly told his audience she was extorting the President. President Trump allegedly paid $150,000 to help keep quiet a year-long affair with the former Playboy model.
According to Judge Vyskocil, "Fox persuasively argues . . . that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer arrives with an appropriate amount of skepticism about the statements he makes." She doesn't stop there, writing that "[w]hether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as exaggeration, non-literal commentary, or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same—the statements are not actionable."


https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/greedy-associates/tucker-carlson-successfully-argues-nobody-really-believes-tucker-carlson-is-reporting-facts/

forgetful

Quote from: Pakuni on February 01, 2023, 04:15:18 PM
Alas, Tucker already has proven the "nobody with functioning brain cells believes me" defense is a winner.

When Tucker Carlson says on his show "[r]emember the facts of the story; these are undisputed" no reasonable person would believe that he was about to state facts. At least, that was Tucker Carlson's own argument in defending himself from a libel suit.
That argument convinced U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil, who dismissed a lawsuit brought by model and actress Karen McDougal. McDougal sued for defamation, alleging Carlson baselessly told his audience she was extorting the President. President Trump allegedly paid $150,000 to help keep quiet a year-long affair with the former Playboy model.
According to Judge Vyskocil, "Fox persuasively argues . . . that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer arrives with an appropriate amount of skepticism about the statements he makes." She doesn't stop there, writing that "[w]hether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as exaggeration, non-literal commentary, or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same—the statements are not actionable."


https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/greedy-associates/tucker-carlson-successfully-argues-nobody-really-believes-tucker-carlson-is-reporting-facts/

I totally forgot about that case, maybe because it seems like that should be an onion article, not an actual court defense/decision.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

That's the problem with the reasonable person standard. Oftentimes we are not dealing with reasonable people.
Quote from: Goose on January 15, 2023, 08:43:46 PM
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


jficke13

I would temper your expectations that there is any viable route to legal relief like you were discussing above.

ZiggysFryBoy

Sounds like pakuni & 🐷🐷 watch more fox news than most on the right.

statnik

For the diehard believers that the vaccines are beneficial for every single person, what would be your argument for those who already had COVID (let's say it was a typical cold/flu severity for them) and they're young/healthy?  Keep in mind it's more commonly those who have had it already that tend to get short term flu like symptoms from the vax passing through.

Hards Alumni

#608
Quote from: statnik on February 02, 2023, 04:29:45 PM
For the diehard believers that the vaccines are beneficial for every single person, what would be your argument for those who already had COVID (let's say it was a typical cold/flu severity for them) and they're young/healthy?  Keep in mind it's more commonly those who have had it already that tend to get short term flu like symptoms from the vax passing through.

It's safe and effective at preventing death regardless of previous infection.  Despite your beliefs, no one is getting sick from or damaged by the vaccine.  If you believe differently, please show your work.

Also, calling anyone here a "diehard believer" is a misnomer.  I don't believe the vaccine works, I know it works.  There are hundreds of studies that prove that to be the case.

statnik

Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 02, 2023, 04:37:45 PM
It's safe and effective at preventing death regardless of previous infection.  Despite your beliefs, no one is getting sick from or damaged by the vaccine.  If you believe differently, please show your work.

Also, calling anyone here a "diehard believer" is a misnomer.  I don't believe the vaccine works, I know it works.  There are hundreds of studies that prove that to be the case.

You don't 'know' it works for everyone, just like everyone on the vax skeptical side, all you know are anecdotes, and if you believe studies are being approved and peer-reviewed with no bias, then that's fine.  Doesn't make it true though, something you 'know'.  Why then are people in other countries getting compensation for vaccine damage/injury?

Hards Alumni

Quote from: statnik on February 02, 2023, 04:44:32 PM
You don't 'know' it works for everyone, just like everyone on the vax skeptical side, all you know are anecdotes, and if you believe studies are being approved and peer-reviewed with no bias, then that's fine.  Doesn't make it true though, something you 'know'.  Why then are people in other countries getting compensation for vaccine damage/injury?

I'm done arguing with morons about the safety and effectiveness of a scientifically proven vaccine that has been dosed in the billions world wide who cannot provide evidence of their claims.

So either put up, or shut up.

tower912

Quote from: statnik on February 02, 2023, 04:44:32 PM
You don't 'know' it works for everyone, just like everyone on the vax skeptical side, all you know are anecdotes, and if you believe studies are being approved and peer-reviewed with no bias, then that's fine.  Doesn't make it true though, something you 'know'.  Why then are people in other countries getting compensation for vaccine damage/injury?

Until you show your work, it is just flatulence.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

forgetful

Quote from: statnik on February 02, 2023, 04:29:45 PM
For the diehard believers that the vaccines are beneficial for every single person, what would be your argument for those who already had COVID (let's say it was a typical cold/flu severity for them) and they're young/healthy?  Keep in mind it's more commonly those who have had it already that tend to get short term flu like symptoms from the vax passing through.

No idea why I'm remotely engaging with someone that refuses to accept all rational scientific evidence, but here it goes.

My argument for why every person who can safely get the vaccine (there are allergies etc.). The vaccine significantly reduces the likelihood that you get a symptomatic case of COVID.

Each time you get a symptomatic case of COVID, regardless of whether it is mild or severe, COVID induces rewiring of your myeloid cells, converting them into a pro-clotting form that decreases your innate immune system response.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35638-y


The result is damage to lungs, kidneys, brain, heart and just about every other tissue. So much damage, that images of individuals brain post-COVID demonstrates a decrease in white matter that in many cases looks like early Alzheimers.

https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/145/5/1830/6464331

Similar long-lasting damage can be seen in many tissues. The weird thing (see 1st link) is this change in your myeloid cells persists for a long time in COVID. Meaning, the damage persists, and also weakens your innate immune system, making it more likely that you get other infections (see the rash of childhood viral infections that crippled children's hospitals).

So what does that mean for subsequent infections. Well the research is clear. Being reinfected (symptomatic infections) amplifies this damage and increases the likelihood of long lasting damage to our organs.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02051-3


How can you avoid chronically damaging your immune system, heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, etc? Get vaccinated, and reduce your risk of getting a systematic infection and decreasing the impact of any infections you do get.

Don't get vaccinated and you are putting your entire health at long-term risk with each subsequent symptomatic infection.

The above is how you document and support your case (e.g. show your work).

TSmith34, Inc.

#613
Quote from: statnik on February 02, 2023, 04:44:32 PM
You don't 'know' it works for everyone, just like everyone on the vax skeptical side, all you know are anecdotes, and if you believe studies are being approved and peer-reviewed with no bias, then that's fine.  Doesn't make it true though, something you 'know'.  Why then are people in other countries getting compensation for vaccine damage/injury?

Ah. I see. All the studies really amount to nothing more than anecdotes because actually they are biased. Ah.

Strikingly similar to roqqet's belief that "they" "aren't allowing people to talk about it". You're keeping fine company. Still waiting for you to take up the roqqet challenge: show a single study that can stand up to scrutiny proving HCQ or Ivermectin are effective treatments for COVID. Oh, that's right. You can't, but only because no one is allowed to talk about it.

You know, there was once a healthcare professional that posted, "Vaccination takes serious illness, hospitalization, and death off the table. Its over. Carry on." But I strongly support anti-vaxxers never getting another shot. Please proceed.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

ZiggysFryBoy

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 02, 2023, 07:46:06 PM
Ah. I see. All the studies really amount to nothing more than anecdotes because actually they are biased. Ah.

Strikingly similar to roqqet's belief that "they" "aren't allowing people to talk about it". You're keeping fine company. Still waiting for you to take up the roqqet challenge: show a single study that can stand up to scrutiny proving HCQ or Ivermectin are effective treatments for COVID. Oh, that's right. You can't, but only because no one is allowed to talk about it.

You know, there was once a healthcare professional that posted, "Vaccination takes serious illness, hospitalization, and death off the table. Its over. Carry on." But I strongly support anti-vaxxers never getting another shot. Please proceed.

Soooooooweeeeeeee. 🐷🐷

TSmith34, Inc.

This Piggy Ziggy went to Marquette
This Piggy Ziggy should have stayed home
This Piggy Ziggy ate roast meats
Class, this Piggy Ziggy has none
And this Piggy Ziggy cried 'wee, wee, wee', all the day long.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

tower912

Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

ZiggysFryBoy

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 03, 2023, 07:08:36 AM
This Piggy Ziggy went to Marquette
This Piggy Ziggy should have stayed home
This Piggy Ziggy ate roast meats
Class, this Piggy Ziggy has none
And this Piggy Ziggy cried 'wee, wee, wee', all the day long.

The Dos Pigs is your burden.  Can't just put it on someone else.  🐷🐷

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on February 03, 2023, 12:38:28 PM
The Dos Pigs is your burden.  Can't just put it on someone else.  🐷🐷

I mean, it seems like its your burden to carry on something that was never really funny to begin with. But maybe that's just me.
Matthew 25:40: Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

TSmith34, Inc.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 03, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
I mean, it seems like its your burden to carry on something that was never really funny to begin with. But maybe that's just me.

Do not be too hard on Piggy Ziggy. He's shown that he has literally nothing of value to add. This is the best he can do. Best to just pat him on the head like a three-year-old with his first finger painting and tell him how clever he is.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

ZiggysFryBoy

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 03, 2023, 01:47:55 PM
Do not be too hard on Piggy Ziggy. He's shown that he has literally nothing of value to add. This is the best he can do. Best to just pat him on the head like a three-year-old with his first finger painting and tell him how clever he is.

🐷🐷

Cry dos-pig cry.

TSmith34, Inc.

If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

ZiggysFryBoy


statnik

https://bmjmedicine.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000373

Though at least they seemed to have had more positive outcomes overall, this study makes one pause about the frequently peddled narrative that myocarditis is more likely from a COVID-19 bout than vaccination against it.

Hards Alumni

Quote from: statnik on February 05, 2023, 08:55:49 AM
https://bmjmedicine.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000373

Though at least they seemed to have had more positive outcomes overall, this study makes one pause about the frequently peddled narrative that myocarditis is more likely from a COVID-19 bout than vaccination against it.

Show me in the article where it says this.

Or did you just read tweets again, and run in here with a link?

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