Health Care Workforce

[jesmu84]

Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility

That's pretty ridiculous. 

[Galway Eagle]

Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility

"You've been shot and are bleeding out, can I see your vaccine card?"

[Jockey]

Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility

In non-emergency situations (which I assume you meant), I agree 100%.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

In non-emergency situations (which I assume you meant), I agree 100%.

There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid.  Ridiculous statement.

So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.

[Jockey]

There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid.  Ridiculous statement.

So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.

I think, by definition, people in healthcare facilities (patients) are compromised. That is why employees must be vaccinated. It is why visitors aren't allowed. The best (long-term) care that can be provided for someone entering a medical facility is to vaccinate that person if they are unvaccinated.

I am not saying these people shouldn't get care - just have a separate, isolated unit for them. Do not allow un-vaxxed people to have any contact with non-medical personnel. And since they are un-vaxxed by choice, use a limited staff to treat them. Yes, I understand that may be extreme, but 850,000 dead people calls for some extreme measures

[MUBurrow]

There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid.  Ridiculous statement.

So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.

Like in the Minnesota thread, I'm not advocating for this position.  But we have this dissonance right now where we're connecting vaccine mandates with the goal of limiting spread, and that doesn't make sense.  Vaccination may somewhat suppress viral loads, etc., but especially with Omicron, that's more of an off-label benefit at this point.  The primary benefit is you don't die or require ICU hospitalization if you are vaccinated.  So I don't understand connecting the evidence of the likelihood of transmission in a given environment with whether to mandate vaccinations there.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think, by definition, people in healthcare facilities (patients) are compromised. That is why employees must be vaccinated. It is why visitors aren't allowed. The best (long-term) care that can be provided for someone entering a medical facility is to vaccinate that person if they are unvaccinated.

I am not saying these people shouldn't get care - just have a separate, isolated unit for them. Do not allow un-vaxxed people to have any contact with non-medical personnel. And since they are un-vaxxed by choice, use a limited staff to treat them. Yes, I understand that may be extreme, but 850,000 dead people calls for some extreme measures

In the absence of evidence of significant numbers people catching Covid from seeking routine care in medical facilities, that is an overreaction and misallocation of resources.

[Lighthouse 84]

Like in the Minnesota thread, I'm not advocating for this position.  But we have this dissonance right now where we're connecting vaccine mandates with the goal of limiting spread, and that doesn't make sense.  Vaccination may somewhat suppress viral loads, etc., but especially with Omicron, that's more of an off-label benefit at this point.  The primary benefit is you don't die or require ICU hospitalization if you are vaccinated.  So I don't understand connecting the evidence of the likelihood of transmission in a given environment with whether to mandate vaccinations there.

Exactly.  Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron.  There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Exactly.  Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron.  There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.

There absolutely is...you just likely don't agree with it.

[Galway Eagle]

Exactly.  Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron.  There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.

Says there's no point, then says the point. Next he'll say "there's no reason to mandate seatbelts, sure they protect against death or worse injury but they don't prevent accidents"

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There absolutely is...you just likely don't agree with it.

There most certainly is in certain circumstances.  Vaccinations for everyone who wants to seek routine medical care, when there is no suggestion that those venues are sources of spread, is a misuse of resources.

[MUBurrow]

There most certainly is in certain circumstances.  Vaccinations for everyone who wants to seek routine medical care, when there is no suggestion that those venues are sources of spread, is a misuse of resources.

I don't disagree with this at all.  My only point is that what we are really trying to do with the vaccine mandates to date is create proxy mandates that, in the aggregate, are sufficiently successful to prevent unvaccinated people from overwhelming acute care resources. And that's because we don't feel morally okay just going directly to the issue and making vaccination a requirement to use those resources.  But we end up with these sort of clumsy justifications for mandates because we aren't targeting them directly at the goal (again, because we find that morally unacceptable), and that opens the door for critics to act in bad faith and accuse the mandates as having some ulterior motive, which is strictly true but only out of compassion for the ill and unvaccinated.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don't disagree with this at all.  My only point is that what we are really trying to do with the vaccine mandates to date is create proxy mandates that, in the aggregate, are sufficiently successful to prevent unvaccinated people from overwhelming acute care resources. And that's because we don't feel morally okay just going directly to the issue and making vaccination a requirement to use those resources.  But we end up with these sort of clumsy justifications for mandates because we aren't targeting them directly at the goal (again, because we find that morally unacceptable), and that opens the door for critics to act in bad faith and accuse the mandates as having some ulterior motive, which is strictly true but only out of compassion for the ill and unvaccinated.

I read this twice, and I THINK I agree with it! 

[MUBurrow]

I read this twice, and I THINK I agree with it! 

Haha that's fair. Its been on my brain since yesterday and I'm going to have to write a 1-3-1 on it over the weekend before I'm confident there's a decent point in there somewhere!

Basically, we're in this weird spot where we acknolwedge vaccination doesn't prevent infection, but it does prevent ICU stays and death.  So the whole point of vaccine mandates is to prevent the hospitals from being clogged with unvaccinated jackasses so that when i trip over my coffeetable screaming at Marquette on the TV, there's a spot for me. The easiest and most obvious way to do that would be to say "no vaccine, no hospital admission."  But even among the most strident vaccine mandate advocates, that seems morally not okay. 

So we're trying to back into it with "okay you have to be vaccinated if you go to work, go to a restaurant, go to a public event, etc."  But that's all just in service of not being willing to tell people to frack off and die when their unvaccinated ass shows up at the hospital with covid.  Folks are using that "we can't do what we really want so we'll try to use an end around to get there" to accuse mandate advocates as having ulterior motives or not being honest or whatever.  Stricly, that's true. But the only reason its true is because of their moral compass and compassion to the unvaxxed, which is a crapty thing to use against them.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Haha that's fair. Its been on my brain since yesterday and I'm going to have to write a 1-3-1 on it over the weekend before I'm confident there's a decent point in there somewhere!

Basically, we're in this weird spot where we acknolwedge vaccination doesn't prevent infection, but it does prevent ICU stays and death.  So the whole point of vaccine mandates is to prevent the hospitals from being clogged with unvaccinated jackasses so that when i trip over my coffeetable screaming at Marquette on the TV, there's a spot for me. The easiest and most obvious way to do that would be to say "no vaccine, no hospital admission."  But even among the most strident vaccine mandate advocates, that seems morally not okay. 

So we're trying to back into it with "okay you have to be vaccinated if you go to work, go to a restaurant, go to a public event, etc."  But that's all just in service of not being willing to tell people to frack off and die when their unvaccinated ass shows up at the hospital with covid.  Folks are using that "we can't do what we really want so we'll try to use an end around to get there" to accuse mandate advocates as having ulterior motives or not being honest or whatever.  Stricly, that's true. But the only reason its true is because of their moral compass and compassion to the unvaxxed, which is a crapty thing to use against them.

OK, I read this once and I completely agree with it.

The only reason we are not just saying *as a society* "Alright, you're not listening.  We are done and going back to fully life as normal," is because it would overwhelm the health care system.  But we aren't going to turn away people from accessing health care.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Exactly.  Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron.  There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.

Errrr...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just phrased this wrong.

[Hards Alumni]

Errrr...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just phrased this wrong.

You shouldn't.  He ain't built right.

[MU82]

From the AP:

Despite having the highest vaccine uptake of any global region — with two-thirds of its roughly 435 million citizens vaccinated — South American hospitals are reeling from omicron, as healthcare workers take sick leave in droves across the continent.

With beaches packed from Argentina to Brazil, and little regard for omicron's mighty contagiousness, the virus is proving impossible to control. And few even see what’s happening in hospitals.

At one hospital in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil’s most populous city, 40% of the staff is out sick. Some hospitals have had to cancel scheduled surgeries, while others have stopped taking new patients altogether.

The nursing shortage isn't because nurses are quitting rather than getting vaccinated. It's largely because they're getting Covid. (And there's also quite a bit of burnout.)

The Rio situation might or might not be extreme. My wife said that on Friday, more than 25% of the nurses at her hospital were out with Covid. And they're not even testing an employee now unless she or he has symptoms, so it's not a case of "sure, with all the testing, they're sidelining asymptomatic people."

[warriorchick]

From the AP:

At one hospital in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil’s most populous city, 40% of the staff is out sick.

Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?

Perhaps a creative solution is called for.  Just spitballing here, because I am not a medical professional, nor do I spend time combing the interwebs for Covid articles:  Has it ever been considered to let asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) Omicron Covid-positives work the Covid floor? It seems to me that with the proper precautions (i.e., keeping those employees away from the healthy ones), it just might work.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?

Why would they be tested if they are asymptomatic?  I don't believe that health care workers here are regularly tested unless they have symptoms.

[warriorchick]

Why would they be tested if they are asymptomatic?  I don't believe that health care workers here are regularly tested unless they have symptoms.

Just asking the question. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

With beaches packed from Argentina to Brazil, and little regard for omicron's mighty contagiousness, the virus is proving impossible to control.

Isn't being outside in the sun better than being inside?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Isn't being outside in the sun better than being inside?

Yes, although I suspect what the article means (and fails to say clearly) is that precautions are not being taken, inside or out.

[pbiflyer]

Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?

Perhaps a creative solution is called for.  Just spitballing here, because I am not a medical professional, nor do I spend time combing the interwebs for Covid articles:  Has it ever been considered to let asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) Omicron Covid-positives work the Covid floor? It seems to me that with the proper precautions (i.e., keeping those employees away from the healthy ones), it just might work.

I think I recall seeing that a US hospital is either doing this or asking for permission to do this. When I have time I will try and see if I can find it.