MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => COVID-19 => Topic started by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on January 07, 2022, 12:03:56 PM
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Lenny said this yesterday: "It’s worked for every essential worker we have from firemen to health care workers to policemen to meat packers to grocery clerks to etc., etc., etc. - but I guess educating our children and looking out for their mental health/well being isn’t considered essential any more. Sad what these teachers have done. Incomprehensible that there are people applauding them for doing it."
Yeah. Regarding those health care workers. From the Atlantic:
"Public support is also faltering. “We once had parades and people hanging up signs; professional sports teams used to do Zooms with us and send us lunches,” Falise told me. “The pandemic hasn’t really become any different, but those things are gone.” Health-care workers now experience indifference at best or antagonism at worst. And more than ever, they are struggling with the jarring disconnect between their jobs and their communities. At work, they see the inescapable reality of the pandemic. Everywhere else—on TV and social media, during commutes and grocery runs—they see people living the fantasy that it is over. The rest of the country seems hell-bent on returning to normal, but their choices mean that health-care workers cannot.
As a result, “there’s an enormous loss of empathy among health-care workers,” Swaminathan said. “People have hit a tipping point,” and the number of colleagues who’ve talked about retiring or switching careers “has grown dramatically in the last couple of months.” Medicine runs on an unspoken social contract in which medical professionals expect themselves to sacrifice their own well-being for their patients. But the pandemic has exposed how fragile that contract is, said Arora, the Illinois hospitalist. “Society has decided to move on with their lives, and it’s hard to blame health-care workers for doing the same,” she said."
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/omicron-mild-hospital-strain-health-care-workers/621193/
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BTW I post this not to call out the health care workforce. My point is that we can't expect people, no matter how "essential" we deem their jobs, to work in a perpetual state of chaos over a two year period. Nurses, doctors, teachers, etc. all deserve some grace because this isn't what they signed up for. Not to mention they have to deal with issues outside of work as well.
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Just like teachers, what we've been doing to healthcare and healthcare workers over the last 20+ years is leading to ruin.
Turning healthcare (and housing and etc) into a commodity has torn down a once great system. We've lowered health outcomes. We look terrible in nearly every metric when compared to peer nations. Not only are we paying low wages to nearly all healthcare employees, but we also cut costs by reducing # of support staff. It's abhorrent.
Source: I am a PA
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Just like teachers, what we've been doing to healthcare and healthcare workers over the last 20+ years is leading to ruin.
Turning healthcare (and housing and etc) into a commodity has torn down a once great system. We've lowered health outcomes. We look terrible in nearly every metric when compared to peer nations. Not only are we paying low wages to nearly all healthcare employees, but we also cut costs by reducing # of support staff. It's abhorrent.
Source: I am a PA
https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/ratios
A lot of work being done around standardizing and regulating appropriate nurse to patient ratios. Support this movement whole heartedly. Better care, happier/healthier nurses, and a distant third create more well paying jobs.
Surprised to hear you say we’ve lowered health care outcomes. In my opinion, working in the field for awhile now we’ve come along way in the last 10 years in attaching reimbursement/fines to how well a hospital is performing in reducing HAIs. It wasn’t that long ago that quality scorecards in the acute care setting were not even a thing or at best only shared internally. A lot of that data is now public, reported to CMS, and directly tied to reimbursement for a hospital/health system.
Are you a PA in the acute care setting?
Edit: not just an emphasis on reducing HAIs but also tracking readmissions, LOS, etc has all come so far in the last 10 years.
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BTW I post this not to call out the health care workforce. My point is that we can't expect people, no matter how "essential" we deem their jobs, to work in a perpetual state of chaos over a two year period. Nurses, doctors, teachers, etc. all deserve some grace because this isn't what they signed up for. Not to mention they have to deal with issues outside of work as well.
Health care workers (and many, many other workers) have shown up throughout. Maybe some idiots aren’t grateful for that but I am. And I’m forever grateful for the Catholic school teachers who showed up pretty much throughout. Same for the Public school teachers here (Florida) and many other places. Chicago? Not so much.
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Healthcare workers and the state of the system as reported by Ed Yong of the Atlantic
https://twitter.com/edyong209/status/1479448857402650624?s=21 (https://twitter.com/edyong209/status/1479448857402650624?s=21)
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Health care workers (and many, many other workers) have shown up throughout. Maybe some idiots aren’t grateful for that but I am. And I’m forever grateful for the Catholic school teachers who showed up pretty much throughout. Same for the Public school teachers here (Florida) and many other places. Chicago? Not so much.
Point sails over your head per usual.
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https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/ratios
A lot of work being done around standardizing and regulating appropriate nurse to patient ratios. Support this movement whole heartedly. Better care, happier/healthier nurses, and a distant third create more well paying jobs.
Surprised to hear you say we’ve lowered health care outcomes. In my opinion, working in the field for awhile now we’ve come along way in the last 10 years in attaching reimbursement/fines to how well a hospital is performing in reducing HAIs. It wasn’t that long ago that quality scorecards in the acute care setting were not even a thing or at best only shared internally. A lot of that data is now public, reported to CMS, and directly tied to reimbursement for a hospital/health system.
Are you a PA in the acute care setting?
Edit: not just an emphasis on reducing HAIs but also tracking readmissions, LOS, etc has all come so far in the last 10 years.
Infections sure, but how has tracking readmissions and length of stay improved anything?
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https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Quality-Initiatives-Patient-Assessment-Instruments/Value-Based-Programs/HRRP/Hospital-Readmission-Reduction-Program
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https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Quality-Initiatives-Patient-Assessment-Instruments/Value-Based-Programs/HRRP/Hospital-Readmission-Reduction-Program
I’m asking you a serious question. I want to know why you think that. Not some CMS report.
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Point sails over your head per usual.
I got your “point” but it was irrelevant to my post that you quoted.
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Health care workers (and many, many other workers) have shown up throughout. Maybe some idiots aren’t grateful for that but I am. And I’m forever grateful for the Catholic school teachers who showed up pretty much throughout. Same for the Public school teachers here (Florida) and many other places. Chicago? Not so much.
Do you actually know their negotiated contract? I'm guessing you don't I don't either but I know it's similar to the Morton contract which is a joke. Teacher tests positive it's mandated virtual school, but also they have to use their sick days. If they're out of sick days then it's docked pay, WHILE STILL WORKING!!! How do I know because that's the Bs my fiancé has to do this week. Meanwhile I'm sure in your 20s you got to call out for the sniffles and use a sick day or have the manager not doc your pay.
Just STFU till you know exactly what details they're upset over.
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Same for the Public school teachers here (Florida)
Y'all in Florida have a funny way of showing your appreciation for your dedicated teachers.
https://www.business.org/hr/workforce-management/best-us-states-for-teachers/
Florida ranks 47th in the metric comparing teacher pay to compensation for all other occupations. Only Arizona, Colorado and Virginia ranked lower.
It's actually worse when it comes to simply comparing teacher salaries. Only Mississippi pays its teachers less than Florida's $48,800.
"Nationally, teacher salaries dipped by about 3% from 2010 to 2020. But seven states saw dramatic decreases in teacher pay of over 10%: Mississippi, Louisiana, Indiana, Florida, Wyoming, Arkansas, and Ohio."
Florida public education is going through a crisis, as teachers are quitting bigly. There were 4,961 teacher openings as this school year began, an increase of more than 67% from August 2020, when there were 2,962 advertised positions. It is a 38.7% increase over the vacancies reported pre-pandemic in August 2019.
https://feaweb.org/issues-action/teacher-and-staff-shortage/
Lousy pay and lousy conditions will do that.
So yes, you should be grateful for those who haven't quit and who have "showed up pretty much throughout," Lenny. And if you haven't already, you might want to ask your state representatives to show a little more gratitude, too.
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I got your “point” but it was irrelevant to my post that you quoted.
WOOSH yet again! Cause it was.
Really cobwebby today I see.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1480223157952950287
Seems beds are there, nurse shortage is the biggest problem right now.
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Going out on a limb to state that caregivers/workers for adults with special needs have near the same level of exposure as nurses and yet, over the past 2 years, not a single thanks was ever given to them. :(
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Going out on a limb to state that caregivers/workers for adults with special needs have near the same level of exposure as nurses and yet, over the past 2 years, not a single thanks was ever given to them. :(
Nor their day program workers nor their drivers. We don't even get officially notified for potential exposures... getting a thank you is much further down the list.
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Nor their day program workers nor their drivers. We don't even get officially notified for potential exposures... getting a thank you is much further down the list.
Don't you enjoy only finding out about exposure from word of mouth on why someone isn't in that day?
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I love being told after 20 minutes of CPR that they were COVID positive.
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Fahrenheit, in your biz, it would be wise ta assume everyone iz covid+, until proven udderwise, aina?
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Don't you enjoy only finding out about exposure from word of mouth on why someone isn't in that day?
Exactly. We find out when multiple people from one day center cancel out for the rest of the week. Often we have to put two and two together.
So much for contact tracing.
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Exactly. We find out when multiple people from one day center cancel out for the rest of the week. Often we have to put two and two together.
So much for contact tracing.
My company has gone with the policy of don't ask don't tell, as they try desperately to cling onto enough staff to manage the day cares and the homes. 2 weeks ago we had a day center with 110 clients and 6 staff.
All the other area day centers had shutdown forcing our company to have to watch them. Couldn't get enough staff for houses, so they just sent them all to one location.
Those employees are paid 11/hr and if contracted covid, the company will not pay them for missed time.
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$11 an hour and no sick time?
That’s terrible.
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$11 an hour and no sick time?
That’s terrible.
Welcome to in home health care!
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Although SCOTUS shot down the nationwide vaccine mandate for businesses, even this Handmaid's Tale SCOTUS (mostly) came to their senses regarding the requirement that health-care workers be vaccinated:
"COVID-19 is a highly contagious, dangerous, and - especially for Medicare and Medicaid patients - deadly disease. Indeed, their [healthcare industry] support suggests that a vaccination requirement under these circumstances is a straightforward and predictable example of the health and safety regulations that Congress has authorized the Secretary to impose. After all, ensuring that providers take steps to avoid transmitting a dangerous virus to their patients is consistent with the fundamental principle of the medical profession: first, do no harm."
That Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch and Barrett voted against this was predictable but it's still pretty scary.
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Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility
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Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility
That's pretty ridiculous.
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Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility
"You've been shot and are bleeding out, can I see your vaccine card?"
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Now make it mandatory for anyone entering a healthcare facility
In non-emergency situations (which I assume you meant), I agree 100%.
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In non-emergency situations (which I assume you meant), I agree 100%.
There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid. Ridiculous statement.
So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.
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There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid. Ridiculous statement.
So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.
I think, by definition, people in healthcare facilities (patients) are compromised. That is why employees must be vaccinated. It is why visitors aren't allowed. The best (long-term) care that can be provided for someone entering a medical facility is to vaccinate that person if they are unvaccinated.
I am not saying these people shouldn't get care - just have a separate, isolated unit for them. Do not allow un-vaxxed people to have any contact with non-medical personnel. And since they are un-vaxxed by choice, use a limited staff to treat them. Yes, I understand that may be extreme, but 850,000 dead people calls for some extreme measures
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There is no evidence of significant spread in medical facilities for routine care, but sure, let's deny people that medical care because they aren't vaccinated for Covid. Ridiculous statement.
So many people don't understand how to moderate their positions to make them in any way feasible.
Like in the Minnesota thread, I'm not advocating for this position. But we have this dissonance right now where we're connecting vaccine mandates with the goal of limiting spread, and that doesn't make sense. Vaccination may somewhat suppress viral loads, etc., but especially with Omicron, that's more of an off-label benefit at this point. The primary benefit is you don't die or require ICU hospitalization if you are vaccinated. So I don't understand connecting the evidence of the likelihood of transmission in a given environment with whether to mandate vaccinations there.
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I think, by definition, people in healthcare facilities (patients) are compromised. That is why employees must be vaccinated. It is why visitors aren't allowed. The best (long-term) care that can be provided for someone entering a medical facility is to vaccinate that person if they are unvaccinated.
I am not saying these people shouldn't get care - just have a separate, isolated unit for them. Do not allow un-vaxxed people to have any contact with non-medical personnel. And since they are un-vaxxed by choice, use a limited staff to treat them. Yes, I understand that may be extreme, but 850,000 dead people calls for some extreme measures
In the absence of evidence of significant numbers people catching Covid from seeking routine care in medical facilities, that is an overreaction and misallocation of resources.
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Like in the Minnesota thread, I'm not advocating for this position. But we have this dissonance right now where we're connecting vaccine mandates with the goal of limiting spread, and that doesn't make sense. Vaccination may somewhat suppress viral loads, etc., but especially with Omicron, that's more of an off-label benefit at this point. The primary benefit is you don't die or require ICU hospitalization if you are vaccinated. So I don't understand connecting the evidence of the likelihood of transmission in a given environment with whether to mandate vaccinations there.
Exactly. Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron. There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.
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Exactly. Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron. There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.
There absolutely is...you just likely don't agree with it.
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Exactly. Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron. There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.
Says there's no point, then says the point. Next he'll say "there's no reason to mandate seatbelts, sure they protect against death or worse injury but they don't prevent accidents"
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There absolutely is...you just likely don't agree with it.
There most certainly is in certain circumstances. Vaccinations for everyone who wants to seek routine medical care, when there is no suggestion that those venues are sources of spread, is a misuse of resources.
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There most certainly is in certain circumstances. Vaccinations for everyone who wants to seek routine medical care, when there is no suggestion that those venues are sources of spread, is a misuse of resources.
I don't disagree with this at all. My only point is that what we are really trying to do with the vaccine mandates to date is create proxy mandates that, in the aggregate, are sufficiently successful to prevent unvaccinated people from overwhelming acute care resources. And that's because we don't feel morally okay just going directly to the issue and making vaccination a requirement to use those resources. But we end up with these sort of clumsy justifications for mandates because we aren't targeting them directly at the goal (again, because we find that morally unacceptable), and that opens the door for critics to act in bad faith and accuse the mandates as having some ulterior motive, which is strictly true but only out of compassion for the ill and unvaccinated.
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I don't disagree with this at all. My only point is that what we are really trying to do with the vaccine mandates to date is create proxy mandates that, in the aggregate, are sufficiently successful to prevent unvaccinated people from overwhelming acute care resources. And that's because we don't feel morally okay just going directly to the issue and making vaccination a requirement to use those resources. But we end up with these sort of clumsy justifications for mandates because we aren't targeting them directly at the goal (again, because we find that morally unacceptable), and that opens the door for critics to act in bad faith and accuse the mandates as having some ulterior motive, which is strictly true but only out of compassion for the ill and unvaccinated.
I read this twice, and I THINK I agree with it! ;)
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I read this twice, and I THINK I agree with it! ;)
Haha that's fair. Its been on my brain since yesterday and I'm going to have to write a 1-3-1 on it over the weekend before I'm confident there's a decent point in there somewhere!
Basically, we're in this weird spot where we acknolwedge vaccination doesn't prevent infection, but it does prevent ICU stays and death. So the whole point of vaccine mandates is to prevent the hospitals from being clogged with unvaccinated jackasses so that when i trip over my coffeetable screaming at Marquette on the TV, there's a spot for me. The easiest and most obvious way to do that would be to say "no vaccine, no hospital admission." But even among the most strident vaccine mandate advocates, that seems morally not okay.
So we're trying to back into it with "okay you have to be vaccinated if you go to work, go to a restaurant, go to a public event, etc." But that's all just in service of not being willing to tell people to frack off and die when their unvaccinated ass shows up at the hospital with covid. Folks are using that "we can't do what we really want so we'll try to use an end around to get there" to accuse mandate advocates as having ulterior motives or not being honest or whatever. Stricly, that's true. But the only reason its true is because of their moral compass and compassion to the unvaxxed, which is a crapty thing to use against them.
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Haha that's fair. Its been on my brain since yesterday and I'm going to have to write a 1-3-1 on it over the weekend before I'm confident there's a decent point in there somewhere!
Basically, we're in this weird spot where we acknolwedge vaccination doesn't prevent infection, but it does prevent ICU stays and death. So the whole point of vaccine mandates is to prevent the hospitals from being clogged with unvaccinated jackasses so that when i trip over my coffeetable screaming at Marquette on the TV, there's a spot for me. The easiest and most obvious way to do that would be to say "no vaccine, no hospital admission." But even among the most strident vaccine mandate advocates, that seems morally not okay.
So we're trying to back into it with "okay you have to be vaccinated if you go to work, go to a restaurant, go to a public event, etc." But that's all just in service of not being willing to tell people to frack off and die when their unvaccinated ass shows up at the hospital with covid. Folks are using that "we can't do what we really want so we'll try to use an end around to get there" to accuse mandate advocates as having ulterior motives or not being honest or whatever. Stricly, that's true. But the only reason its true is because of their moral compass and compassion to the unvaxxed, which is a crapty thing to use against them.
OK, I read this once and I completely agree with it.
The only reason we are not just saying *as a society* "Alright, you're not listening. We are done and going back to fully life as normal," is because it would overwhelm the health care system. But we aren't going to turn away people from accessing health care.
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Exactly. Vaxed and un-vaxed are transmitting Omicron. There's no reason to mandate a vaccine that protects against death or ICU hospitalization but not transmission.
Errrr...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just phrased this wrong.
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Errrr...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just phrased this wrong.
You shouldn't. He ain't built right.
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From the AP:
Despite having the highest vaccine uptake of any global region — with two-thirds of its roughly 435 million citizens vaccinated — South American hospitals are reeling from omicron, as healthcare workers take sick leave in droves across the continent.
With beaches packed from Argentina to Brazil, and little regard for omicron's mighty contagiousness, the virus is proving impossible to control. And few even see what’s happening in hospitals.
At one hospital in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil’s most populous city, 40% of the staff is out sick. Some hospitals have had to cancel scheduled surgeries, while others have stopped taking new patients altogether.
The nursing shortage isn't because nurses are quitting rather than getting vaccinated. It's largely because they're getting Covid. (And there's also quite a bit of burnout.)
The Rio situation might or might not be extreme. My wife said that on Friday, more than 25% of the nurses at her hospital were out with Covid. And they're not even testing an employee now unless she or he has symptoms, so it's not a case of "sure, with all the testing, they're sidelining asymptomatic people."
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From the AP:
At one hospital in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil’s most populous city, 40% of the staff is out sick.
Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?
Perhaps a creative solution is called for. Just spitballing here, because I am not a medical professional, nor do I spend time combing the interwebs for Covid articles: Has it ever been considered to let asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) Omicron Covid-positives work the Covid floor? It seems to me that with the proper precautions (i.e., keeping those employees away from the healthy ones), it just might work.
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Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?
Why would they be tested if they are asymptomatic? I don't believe that health care workers here are regularly tested unless they have symptoms.
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Why would they be tested if they are asymptomatic? I don't believe that health care workers here are regularly tested unless they have symptoms.
Just asking the question.
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With beaches packed from Argentina to Brazil, and little regard for omicron's mighty contagiousness, the virus is proving impossible to control.
Isn't being outside in the sun better than being inside?
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Isn't being outside in the sun better than being inside?
Yes, although I suspect what the article means (and fails to say clearly) is that precautions are not being taken, inside or out.
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Are they sick, or just tested positive for Covid and are asymptomatic?
Perhaps a creative solution is called for. Just spitballing here, because I am not a medical professional, nor do I spend time combing the interwebs for Covid articles: Has it ever been considered to let asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) Omicron Covid-positives work the Covid floor? It seems to me that with the proper precautions (i.e., keeping those employees away from the healthy ones), it just might work.
I think I recall seeing that a US hospital is either doing this or asking for permission to do this. When I have time I will try and see if I can find it.
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Why would they be tested if they are asymptomatic? I don't believe that health care workers here are regularly tested unless they have symptoms.
The were exposed to a direct contact who is. And that pretty much takes into account most who work in the health care field and deal with the vulnerable.
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The were exposed to a direct contact who is. And that pretty much takes into account most who work in the health care field and deal with the vulnerable.
It may depend on the specific company/facility.
At our hospital, even with direct known exposure, if you've been vaccinated+booster and are asymptomatic, you don't need to quarantine or test.
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NC Gov. Cooper calls for federal help as Charlotte hospitals struggle with COVID surge
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article257581938.html#storylink=cpy
Charlotte’s largest hospital system, Atrium Health, is currently above 95% capacity for hospitalizations, according to the state. The hospital system has already redeployed staff from urgent care and outpatient centers, limited non-emergency procedures and closed specialty centers, the state said in a statement.
On Friday, the governor’s office announced that Gov. Roy Cooper, working with Atrium Health, has requested federal support for staffing capacity from the FEMA and the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response. The state is requesting resources including additional nurses from FEMA to help hospitals deal with COVID capacity. A White House official said FEMA “is actively working with North Carolina to meet their needs.”
“The vast majority of people hospitalized with COVID-19 are unvaccinated,” state Secretary for the Department of Health and Human Services Kody Kinsley said in a statement. In Atrium Health’s facilities, 156 COVID patients are on life support, according to the hospital system. And 92% of those patients are unvaccinated.
This is the hospital where my wife works. She said they are so overwhelmed with Covid patients that almost all other hospital activity has ceased. She has several friends who have Covid right now, and several more who have quit because of the stress.
But yeah ... personal choice affects only the person making the choice.
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https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/
"At will" employment only works one way?
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https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/
"At will" employment only works one way?
Absurd. But frankly, and sadly, not shocking.
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https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/
"At will" employment only works one way?
So .. I was reading the reddit thread on this .. there were multiple health care workers who posted that .. in their field, a 90 day "notice" period was common practice.
So yeah, on the one hand, workers can quit any time. On the other, a mass exodus without "regular" notice is severe and likely hurts the health of the public in the area. -- This isn't an ice cream shop shutting down.
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Common practice. But 'at will' means they have no job protections and can be let go for any reason at any time. Ergo, they can also leave at any time for a better situation.
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So .. I was reading the reddit thread on this .. there were multiple health care workers who posted that .. in their field, a 90 day "notice" period was common practice.
So yeah, on the one hand, workers can quit any time. On the other, a mass exodus without "regular" notice is severe and likely hurts the health of the public in the area. -- This isn't an ice cream shop shutting down.
Fine, then the old employer that needs them that bad can back up the brinks truck and make it worthwhile for them to stay.
If these same people were fired, and couldn't feed their families or keep a roof over their head, no one should be saying that it hurts their health and you can't do it.
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Yeah that court ruling is a horrible precedent. They didn’t violate any contract. They aren’t violating labor law. Even if they were poached, isn’t that ok? So now the court can dictate if someone wants to leave for a better job?
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The court lifted the injunction. All can start at Ascension tomorrow.
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Super-sad article about Mississippi hospitals getting overwhelmed by Covid. There is a horrible nursing shortage due in great part to nurses quitting due to burnout, low pay, the state's refusal to expand Medicaid and other factors. 2,000 unfilled openings for RNs and some of the worst health outcomes in the country.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/health/covid-mississippi-nurses.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220124&instance_id=51124&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=80567&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
This passage especially resonated:
That dynamic was palpable last week as Brandon Russell, 20, a certified nursing assistant, tried to stay chipper as he tended to the needs of nearly a dozen Covid patients. Before entering each room, he had to suit up with a surgical gown, gloves and two masks, even if the task was as simple as switching off a light. After exiting the room, all that protective gear had to be removed. The process was repeated dozens of times a day. The job pays $10 an hour.
Mr. Russell, who recently recovered from Covid, said the past few months had led him to abandon his aspiration to become a registered nurse. “I love my patients but I’ll be honest with you, I’m ready to quit,” he said. “It doesn’t help that whenever I bring up nursing school, every single nurse here tells me not to do it.”
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There was a group of people who were upset when there were lockdowns because folks who needed healthcare were able to get it (evaluations, elective procedures, etc).
Today, there is a lack of available healthcare resources due to unvaccinated taking up significant resources such as some areas/hospitals stopping elective procedures.
But I haven't heard the same outcry.
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There was a group of people who were upset when there were lockdowns because folks who needed healthcare were able to get it (evaluations, elective procedures, etc).
Today, there is a lack of available healthcare resources due to unvaccinated taking up significant resources such as some areas/hospitals stopping elective procedures.
But I haven't heard the same outcry.
"Personal choice!" The unvaxxed freedom fighters get to personally choose that others -- even those who don't have Covid -- suffer the consequences of unvaxxed freedom fighters' personal choices. All lives don't matter.
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There was a group of people who were upset when there were lockdowns because folks who needed healthcare were able to get it (evaluations, elective procedures, etc).
Today, there is a lack of available healthcare resources due to unvaccinated taking up significant resources such as some areas/hospitals stopping elective procedures.
But I haven't heard the same outcry.
A lot of the lack of Healthcare can also be chalked up to the amount of nurses who have quit over pay and conditions. Hell a hospital attempted to force employees back to work through the court system instead of paying an actual wage.
I know 7 nurses over the past 2 hears who have quit for better paying travel nurse jobs. After my workday today I'm thinking about it as well.
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A lot of the lack of Healthcare can also be chalked up to the amount of nurses who have quit over pay and conditions. Hell a hospital attempted to force employees back to work through the court system instead of paying an actual wage.
I know 7 nurses over the past 2 hears who have quit for better paying travel nurse jobs. After my workday today I'm thinking about it as well.
I think it is wrong to assume that more pay will make nurses return to jobs that burned them out.
And frankly, I am not sure I would want to be cared for by a nurse who is only working "because they paid me a crap ton of money".
Most nurses I know didn't get in it for the money. And most of the ones that left didn't leave because they weren't getting paid enough.
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I think it is wrong to assume that more pay will make nurses return to jobs that burned them out.
And frankly, I am not sure I would want to be cared for by a nurse who is only working "because they paid me a crap ton of money".
Most nurses I know didn't get in it for the money. And most of the ones that left didn't leave because they weren't getting paid enough.
Holy Christ, this is a horrible take.
If there are two professions in this entire country that are horrifically underpaid it is teachers and nurses.
They quit because they're chronically abused by society. You know what makes it easier to put up with abuse? MONEY. Imagine being treated like a servant and getting a bunch of money... sucks, but people put up with a lot more if they're being adequately compensated. And then think about what is actually happening, and you'll better understand the crises.
What #UK here is going through is absolute hell, and he and his staff go through it for terrible pay. Telling him that he (or his staff) don't deserve what they're worth is incredibly tone deaf.
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Sez da guy hoos payin' minimum wages, hey?
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Holy Christ, this is a horrible take.
If there are two professions in this entire country that are horrifically underpaid it is teachers and nurses.
They quit because they're chronically abused by society. You know what makes it easier to put up with abuse? MONEY. Imagine being treated like a servant and getting a bunch of money... sucks, but people put up with a lot more if they're being adequately compensated. And then think about what is actually happening, and you'll better understand the crises.
What #UK here is going through is absolute hell, and he and his staff go through it for terrible pay. Telling him that he (or his staff) don't deserve what they're worth is incredibly tone deaf.
No one is saying they aren't underpaid. My daughter is a nurse and I am well aware of everything they are all going through.
My point is that the issues that cause burnout can't be solved just by paying current workers more money. They need to train and hire more people, and give them all the respect and working conditions they deserve.
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Holy Christ, this is a horrible take.
If there are two professions in this entire country that are horrifically underpaid it is teachers and nurses.
They quit because they're chronically abused by society. You know what makes it easier to put up with abuse? MONEY. Imagine being treated like a servant and getting a bunch of money... sucks, but people put up with a lot more if they're being adequately compensated. And then think about what is actually happening, and you'll better understand the crises.
What #UK here is going through is absolute hell, and he and his staff go through it for terrible pay. Telling him that he (or his staff) don't deserve what they're worth is incredibly tone deaf.
Funny. Meriter has a postings for RN jobs. Minimum pay is $77k. That don't seem like chump change to me.
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Sez da guy hoos payin' minimum wages, hey?
$14-16 per with no health insurance, that's pretty good these days. Private employer pushing their employees on BadgerCare, just like Walmart.
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Funny. Meriter has a postings for RN jobs. Minimum pay is $77k. That don't seem like chump change to me.
That's about 50% of what I pay software engineers
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That's about 50% of what I pay software engineers
And? Comparative salary games for completely unrelated professions with very different challenges and skillsets is stupid and reflective of very little.
Are nurses very underappreciated and work an often thankless job? 1000% Do I know infinitely more people who have failed out of or couldn't cut it in engineering programs (not to mention competition from international candidates for top engineering jobs) compared to nursing programs? Also very much true. There is actual reasons why the compensation is higher
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I think it is wrong to assume that more pay will make nurses return to jobs that burned them out.
And frankly, I am not sure I would want to be cared for by a nurse who is only working "because they paid me a crap ton of money".
Most nurses I know didn't get in it for the money. And most of the ones that left didn't leave because they weren't getting paid enough.
Everyone has their limit. My wife is a RN at the largest hospital in our area and their hospital is a total cluster with nonstop turnover, for many reasons. I don't know that the main reason is Covid burnout. A lot of it boils down to the same corporate BS issues you see elsewhere.
She works on a floor that used to be a job many RN's wanted, but now they are losing people nonstop for all sorts of reasons. Yes, they even lost some due to vaccine mandates, which ultimately haven't been required to date.
Many are taking travel nursing jobs where RN's can make a lot of money for a 3 month period. Others are taking jobs at other hospitals to cash in on the large signing bonuses being offered. My wife's employer has been offering $25k sign on bonus for new RN's, but no such retention bonus for existing staff. That pisses existing staff off and just gives them another reason to leave and go get a signing bonus elsewhere.
RN's are getting a 2-3% raise, which we all know is well under inflation, all with rumors flying of the CEO getting a six figure bonus. Many are leaving hospitals for other types of nursing jobs. There are all sorts of telenursing type positions today where a RN can make just as much money, if not more, to work from home or in an office/clinic that is a slower paced and more employee friendly environment.
One of my wife's friends left at the start of the year due to them threatening the vaccine mandate- she took a travel nurse job in Florida where she's making $70k to work three 12 hour shifts a week for 12 weeks. Working 3 days a week in FL during the WI winter months for $70k, and chilling on the beach the other 4 days. They really showed her!! I'm pro vaccine. I'm vaccinated myself as is my family, but it just kind of makes you shake your head.
My wife has stuck it out to this point- for the reasons you mention- because she truly wants to make a difference and help people, but even she is starting to hit a breaking point. Many of the issues that hospitals are dealing with they brought onto themselves, due to straight up corporate greed and showing they really don't give a crap about their employees. The hospitals themselves clearly won't tell you that in the news and will point blame elsewhere, but it's a real issue.
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That's about 50% of what I pay software engineers
*Chicago vs Madison
*1 year experience requires for the nursing jobs. I'm guessing you aren't paying a new college grad a buck fifty.
*Other points made by Wags.
Other than that, good post!
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*Chicago vs Madison
*1 year experience requires for the nursing jobs. I'm guessing you aren't paying a new college grad a buck fifty.
*Other points made by Wags.
Other than that, good post!
Compensation is normalized nationwide with WFH.
Yes that is entry level salary, maybe 125K if the RSU package is great.
Sales people with a few years of experience are at ~$250k OTE.
I'm not sure that nurses and teachers realize how underpaid they are, or that the retired public realize where current salaries are at. I'm in my little tech company bubble though, so, you guys aren't wrong.
I think being an RN is a harder job. Like Warriorchick said, though, people going into nursing are doing it for different reasons than those working at tech companies. I can't imagine working as a nurse or teacher during this pandemic, you're getting it from both ends.
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No one is saying they aren't underpaid. My daughter is a nurse and I am well aware of everything they are all going through.
My point is that the issues that cause burnout can't be solved just by paying current workers more money. They need to train and hire more people, and give them all the respect and working conditions they deserve.
Not a very “Yah capitalism” view there.
But yes, agree 1000 percent on your points. I have tons of friends that are/were nurses. What they do is obviously not for the money. It amazes me that they willingly do some of the things they do. And the stories they tell during Covid are harrowing.
You couldn’t pay me enough money to do their job. But thanks to my nurse friends, I do recognize the sound of the trauma hawk helicopter when it flies over versus the many others from the local Sikorsky plant nearby.
Say thanks to your daughter for her work. It is appreciated.
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Compensation is normalized nationwide with WFH.
Yes that is entry level salary, maybe 125K if the RSU package is great.
Sales people with a few years of experience are at ~$250k OTE.
I'm not sure that nurses and teachers realize how underpaid they are, or that the retired public realize where current salaries are at. I'm in my little tech company bubble though, so, you guys aren't wrong.
I think being an RN is a harder job. Like Warriorchick said, though, people going into nursing are doing it for different reasons than those working at tech companies. I can't imagine working as a nurse or teacher during this pandemic, you're getting it from both ends.
Sales people have no place in this discussion, apples and oranges when you’re looking at direct revenue production.
But a “harder” job, based on? Being a roofer is a “harder” than almost every office job. Anything involving manual labor is harder than anything in finance or marketing. But that doesn’t mean they are more difficult or they have the same qualifications or barriers to entry.
Again, I’m not trying to crap on nurses. I have utmost respect for them and feel for their disrespect. I just have an issue with when salary/compensation discussions become detached from reality and center in emotion or sympathy. Like when people pop off on social media saying teachers should all make $100K+.
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There are at least 30 executives at my wife’s “not-for-profit” hospital group making 7-figure salaries.
Yes, I know that’s simply how it is. Capitalism and all that.
But it’s a bad look to the worker bees who actually have to deal with the non-stop flow of patients.
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Funny. Meriter has a postings for RN jobs. Minimum pay is $77k. That don't seem like chump change to me.
$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I’m missing some.
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There are at least 30 executives at my wife’s “not-for-profit” hospital group making 7-figure salaries.
Yes, I know that’s simply how it is. Capitalism and all that.
But it’s a bad look to the worker bees who actually have to deal with the non-stop flow of patients.
This. UW hospital CEO just got a huge raise for a “market correction.” I thought this was a “business.” If he wants a raise, go find a competitive offer that pays more and tell them to match it.
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Most hospitals are SWIMMING in cash right now
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One of my wife's friends left at the start of the year due to them threatening the vaccine mandate- she took a travel nurse job in Florida where she's making $70k to work three 12 hour shifts a week for 12 weeks. Working 3 days a week in FL during the WI winter months for $70k, and chilling on the beach the other 4 days. They really showed her!! I'm pro vaccine. I'm vaccinated myself as is my family, but it just kind of makes you shake your head.
This is exactly what 3 of the nurses I know did. One did it in the first summer of covid. Working 3 on 4 off. Getting paid over 100/hr and living at his families house in Florida also banking the stipend for housing. We went down for 2 weeks and had a blast.
I've been thinking about doing that, but I know this pay won't lost forever and haven't fully given up on my career/job (mostly life right now) with the special needs side of things. Other thing that stops me is im largely out of practice on icu.
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This. UW hospital CEO just got a huge raise for a “market correction.” I thought this was a “business.” If he wants a raise, go find a competitive offer that pays more and tell them to match it.
A market correction just means you are preemptively matching it. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace someone at that level. It's cheaper in the long run to keep the current person happy.
Also, no one at the C-level of a corporation that large would do a "match this offer I got" . It's considered highly unprofessional at that level. Either you accept the offer or turn it down.
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Sez da guy hoos payin' minimum wages, hey?
Incorrect. Living wage which is $15/hr. No training or certification required. Paid vacation, 401k, flexible scheduling. We used to pay 50% towards health care until the 50% that the employees contributed was more than the cost of insurance on the ACA's website. Which is also the insurance I'm personally on.
I'm not hiring people with degrees to drive a van... unless they want to. I hide nothing.
Good try though.
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Funny. Meriter has a postings for RN jobs. Minimum pay is $77k. That don't seem like chump change to me.
Cool, now do LPNs, and CNAs.
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Incorrect. Living wage which is $15/hr. No training or certification required. Paid vacation, 401k, flexible scheduling. We used to pay 50% towards health care until the 50% that the employees contributed was more than the cost of insurance on the ACA's website. Which is also the insurance I'm personally on.
I'm not hiring people with degrees to drive a van... unless they want to. I hide nothing.
Good try though.
Ancillary, but I'd argue a living wage is more than $15/hr
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Ancillary, but I'd argue a living wage is more than $15/hr
You can do that, but the living wage is set by the county, so there is a defined number, and it increases annually.
https://www.danepurchasing.com/LivingWage
Not all of our employees are compensated equally, and many have been working for us for 10+ years, and some 20+. They have more vacation and make more.
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You can do that, but the living wage is set by the county, so there is a defined number, and it increases annually.
https://www.danepurchasing.com/LivingWage
Not all of our employees are compensated equally, and many have been working for us for 10+ years, and some 20+. They have more vacation and make more.
Understood.
I assumed when you used the phrase, you were speaking to overarching definition, not county/local definition.
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A market correction just means you are preemptively matching it. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace someone at that level. It's cheaper in the long run to keep the current person happy.
Also, no one at the C-level of a corporation that large would do a "match this offer I got" . It's considered highly unprofessional at that level. Either you accept the offer or turn it down.
I take it you've never worked in a healthcare organization. Kaplan could get leave today, the hospital could hire the next minion and the hospital would operate the exact same. A CEO in a health care organization does not equal a CEO in a random business.
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I take it you've never worked in a healthcare organization. Kaplan could get leave today, the hospital could hire the next minion and the hospital would operate the exact same. A CEO in a health care organization does not equal a CEO in a random business.
Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.
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$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I’m missing some.
A lot were .90 FTE. But figured OT is available aplenty, so it was a wash.
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$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I’m missing some.
You're mostly right - although some nurses still prefer the 8 hrs a day for 5 days.
Most however prefer part time or three 12 hour days.
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Nursing is not 9-5. $77k sounds like a lot, but enough to give up every 4th weekend or work Christmas Day? Or work 3-11 or 11p to 7a?
Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.
Thanks for the information. Still makes no sense from the hospital’s perspective.
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Nursing is not 9-5. $77k sounds like a lot, but enough to give up every 4th weekend or work Christmas Day?
I've had jobs like that that didn't pay as much as $77k
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I've had jobs like that that didn't pay as much as $77k
Well yeah. But you’re not exactly the benchmark people are shooting for.
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Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.
So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?
Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.
Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.
The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.
In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.
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So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?
Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.
Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.
The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.
In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.
Tell me you don't understand how compensation works without saying "I don't understand how compensation works."
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So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?
Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.
Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.
The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.
In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.
If I'm the one that has to go to jail when the company does something illegal, you better believe I'm going to get paid for it. In addition to raising money and handling media, and having to quarterback the company while managing your board?
I think that C-suite pay is inflated, but it's a risky challening career decision to fly that close to the sun.
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If I'm the one that has to go to jail when the company does something illegal, you better believe I'm going to get paid for it. In addition to raising money and handling media, and having to quarterback the company while managing your board?
I think that C-suite pay is inflated, but it's a risky challening career decision to fly that close to the sun.
Is there a lot of evidence of C-suite folks going to jail for a company doing illegal things?
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If the ability to perform an executive job in health care or education is so understated, and the compensation is artificially inflated, then why don’t more people do it?
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If the ability to perform an executive job in health care or education is so understated, and the compensation is artificially inflated, then why don’t more people do it?
Especially when we all see how much Scoop time you have in your education admin job. Work 15 hours, get paid for 40.
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Wear kan eye get sum of dat aktion, hey?
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4 ever
Ambitious guys need not apply.
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Nothing is stopping you. Lots of openings for cops and teachers, too.
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4 ever
Ambitious guys need not apply.
Who has more posts? 4elder or FBM?
Just checkin, kin.
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Hards
Is that a serious question?
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Who has more posts? 4elder or FBM?
Just checkin, kin.
Eye've only had won screen name, doe, hey?
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Doc
You would need to triple down on posts to match Fluff. Outside of Chico, Fluff has to be to the biggest poster in scoop history. A master of 1000 threads.
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Doc
You would need to triple down on posts to match Fluff. Outside of Chico, Fluff has to be to the biggest poster in scoop history. A master of 1000 threads.
Plus superbar posts don't count towards the post total.
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I had someone PM me recently about why the same usual characters are so obsessed with me here. Even Goose said “why should I care” just last week. And here he is again.
It’s just so strange. I mean how hard is it to simply stick to the topic at hand?
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I had someone PM me recently about why the same usual characters are so obsessed with me here. Even Goose said “why should I care” just last week. And here he is again.
It’s just so strange. I mean how hard is it to simply stick to the topic at hand?
Because that isn't what they do. Can't decide what to do next? Personal attacks, doxxing, topic change. It's how they live their lives without having a total mental collapse.
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Fluff
I do not care when you post because I do not sign your paycheck.
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Fluff
I do not care when you post because I do not sign your paycheck.
Really? You keep talking about it.
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Fluff
I told you on Wednesday I would gladly buy you a pregame cocktail and talk MU basketball. In addition, I would do the same for any poster I have nothing in common with other than a love of MU basketball. Plenty of folks have challenged me over the years over my stance on the state of MU basketball and such is life.
To sum it up, post on any topic, at time that fits your schedule. Want to have intelligent discussion on the only topic I care about on scoop, let me know.
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Fluff
I told you on Wednesday I would gladly buy you a pregame cocktail and talk MU basketball. In addition, I would do the same for any poster I have nothing in common with other than a love of MU basketball. Plenty of folks have challenged me over the years over my stance on the state of MU basketball and such is life.
To sum it up, post on any topic, at time that fits your schedule. Want to have intelligent discussion on the only topic I care about on scoop, let me know.
I have no desire to meet any Scoop poster in person. I have no idea who any of you are and I truly don’t care. And even if I found out who you were, I wouldn’t bring your name up here repeatedly. If you went over my many posts here, I can confidently say I have never done that. But it happens with others.
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Fluff
I have never referenced you or any poster by name on scoop or elsewhere. For a guy who thinks he is awfully smart you paint with a very wide brush.
As for meeting folks from scoop, I have enjoyed meeting every single person I have met in person, some I have nothing in common with at all. Just enjoyed a Bucks game with three guys who I consider good friends, all met on scoop.
You are a lucky man that you do not need new friends or learn from others with a different viewpoint. I am still in the learning stage of life and appreciate any new person I meet in person. In addition, I am happy that I am willing to meet fellow alums and see if we have something in common outside of MU basketball.
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Didn't your parents warn you about meeting strangers from the internet? You never know if they'll turn out to be normal, or creeps like Keefe or the mods.
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Skat
I am 58y old and willing to roll the dice.
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Fluff
I have never referenced you or any poster by name on scoop or elsewhere. For a guy who thinks he is awfully smart you paint with a very wide brush.
As for meeting folks from scoop, I have enjoyed meeting every single person I have met in person, some I have nothing in common with at all. Just enjoyed a Bucks game with three guys who I consider good friends, all met on scoop.
You are a lucky man that you do not need new friends or learn from others with a different viewpoint. I am still in the learning stage of life and appreciate any new person I meet in person. In addition, I am happy that I am willing to meet fellow alums and see if we have something in common outside of MU basketball.
I never claimed you did what I stated. But others have.
And my desire not to meet Scoopers has nothing to do with an unwillingness to listen to other viewpoints. It has to do with me being pretty introverted by nature.
But seriously that’s enough about me.