Golf 2022

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Well, sure.
But my point is you can't separate LIV from its founders, or the fact that it (and its players) are being used by a tyrannical regime to distract from its tyranny. And that the players are willing participants in said distraction.
I think one reasonably can be a critic of the PGA Tour and some of its practices, and recognize that individual players owe it nothing, while also labeling the LIV defectors for who they are.

And lest we forget, Brooks Koepka, just a few short months ago:

Koepka, speaking Wednesday, less than 24 hours after Mickelson attempted to save himself from his unflattering comments about the PGA Tour, believes somebody will "sell out" and ultimately opt for the Greg Norman-backed, Saudi-financed Super Golf League.
"I think it's going to still keep going," Koepka said. "I think there will still be talk. Everyone talks about money. They've got enough of it. I don't see it backing down. They can just double up and they'll figure it out. They'll get their guys. Somebody will sell out and go to it."

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/02/23/brooks-koepka-pga-tour-sell-out-saudi-arabia-golf/

Two or three months ago The Atlantic had a lengthy article of an interview with Prince of Saudi Arabia.  He would not answer questions on Kashoggi but the LIV tour sounds like part of his opening SA. People were criticising it as fluffing him up but it was intriguing in that he finally allowed women to drive, opened up SA to tourism and greatly reduced visa entry requirements, he's reduced the influence of the strict Wahhabism among other things.  He said something along the lines of knowing it's not pretty but it takes someone like him and drastic actions to change and modernize SA.

[JWags85]

Two or three months ago The Atlantic had a lengthy article of an interview with Prince of Saudi Arabia.  He would not answer questions on Kashoggi but the LIV tour sounds like part of his opening SA. People were criticising it as fluffing him up but it was intriguing in that he finally allowed women to drive, opened up SA to tourism and greatly reduced visa entry requirements, he's reduced the influence of the strict Wahhabism among other things.  He said something along the lines of knowing it's not pretty but it takes someone like him and drastic actions to change and modernize SA.

This is not meant to be an endorsement of MBS or SA, but Ive long found MBS to be a fascinating duality.  He's very progressive, very moderate in his approach to religion and its place in ruling SA (and has a degree in Islamic law to wit), supportive of Israel as a state and harsh on Hezbollah, and clearly has a vision to make Saudi Arabia a more Westernized and less...however he's basically totalitarian in how to actually get there.  Don't interfere with his plans, even if you're trying to achieve the same goal, or else.  I mean, he imprisoned human rights activists...even though he passed the womens rights they were campaigning for.

[tower912]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

Haven't got out as much I would like. Pops just retired so we're planning a trip to Scotland early spring.

[Pakuni]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

Got in a whopping 9 holes last week ... matching my 2021 total.

[Jockey]

Jockster, you sound like a dyed in the wool Republican, hey?

Are you accusing me of aiding and abetting a coup attempt?

[Jockey]

I get it.  Unfortunately, there are repressive governments involved in a number of sports businesses.  I'm not happy about LIV but enjoy watching the Majors in particular.

As I said, I am fine with people watching. I choose otherwise.

[cheebs09]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

My Tuesday league has been pretty toasty the last two weeks.

[Uncle Rico]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

36 at Lake Arrowhead Saturday followed by 18 at Wild Rock Sunday.  Played a bunch but the game is a mess

[MUfan12]

Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?

One round in. Between sick kids and other commitments it's been tough to get out, especially since it took until mid-May to be nice enough weather. That should change in July.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

This is not meant to be an endorsement of MBS or SA, but Ive long found MBS to be a fascinating duality.  He's very progressive, very moderate in his approach to religion and its place in ruling SA (and has a degree in Islamic law to wit), supportive of Israel as a state and harsh on Hezbollah, and clearly has a vision to make Saudi Arabia a more Westernized and less...however he's basically totalitarian in how to actually get there.  Don't interfere with his plans, even if you're trying to achieve the same goal, or else.  I mean, he imprisoned human rights activists...even though he passed the womens rights they were campaigning for.

Wags,
Exactly my thoughts. Why I thought worth sharing.  Here's the link.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohammed-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-palace-interview/622822/

[Herman Cain]

PGA Tour responds to LIV with more money and changed schedule . Not sure they needed to up the money, but I am sure the players will take it.

The  PGA initial response to LIV was not necessarily the best approach. Should have just let the players go and welcomed any that wanted to keep playing PGA tour events. PGA Tour already had rule that required players to play events that they had not played in years past in certain years. They need some of these names to spice up the fields of the lesser tournaments .   Most of the players who left for LIV were tired, injured and past their prime. The defections just created more spot for young and up coming talent to play the meaningful events.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-schedule-fedex-cup-changes?utm_medium=email&utm_source=062222&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM28970&uuid=85f898e378d547f4aa114b5572e1ddc5

[JWags85]

Wags,
Exactly my thoughts. Why I thought worth sharing.  Here's the link.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohammed-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-palace-interview/622822/

Very interesting read, thanks

How good it was is irrelevant.

Those are my principles.  The same money that funded 9/11 is funding these golfers. I want no part of it. You and others are free to believe whatever you want.

Just wanted to revisit this based on the last few posts of discussion.  And again, lest I sound like a SA apologist, I'm not, the dichotomy is just very interesting to me.

But MBS and this Saudi ruling government is NOTHING like SA 20 years ago under King Fahd.  Fahd a very strict conservative Muslim, incredibly anti-reform and anti-West.  He didn't want Saudis to have anything to do with the US or Europe.

MBS, for his many faults and black marks, has undone tons of what those successive generations had stood for and tried to move SA into modern and more Western ways.

SA is still a human rights disaster and he deserves much of the blame for that, but tying him to 9/11 is like trashing the philanthropy of an heir to a family fortune because his distant uncle, who he wasn't close to, used some of the same pool of money for nefarious means.  Plenty of clear and glaring reasons to crap on MBS and SA, I just don't think thats one of them.

[WhiteTrash]

Just wanted to revisit this based on the last few posts of discussion.  And again, lest I sound like a SA apologist, I'm not, the dichotomy is just very interesting to me.

But MBS and this Saudi ruling government is NOTHING like SA 20 years ago under King Fahd.  Fahd a very strict conservative Muslim, incredibly anti-reform and anti-West.  He didn't want Saudis to have anything to do with the US or Europe.

MBS, for his many faults and black marks, has undone tons of what those successive generations had stood for and tried to move SA into modern and more Western ways.

SA is still a human rights disaster and he deserves much of the blame for that, but tying him to 9/11 is like trashing the philanthropy of an heir to a family fortune because his distant uncle, who he wasn't close to, used some of the same pool of money for nefarious means.  Plenty of clear and glaring reasons to crap on MBS and SA, I just don't think thats one of them.

I think the vitriol against SA in the context of golf and the PGA is mostly fake outrage to justify the real issue, that the LIV is messing with a product we love, the PGA. I think that is real and justified anger. I hope the LIV fails and the all the best golfers are on one tour. I have no problem with LIV competing with the PGA but I think and hope the PGA will be ultimate winner.

I can not in good conscience root against the LIV due to the crap regime in SA without also stop buying Nike and Apple products and stop watching PGA and NBA events. (amongst many more products).

Hopefully the PGA continues with the recent changes to prioritize the players and squashes the LIV.   

[MuggsyB]

I think the vitriol against SA in the context of golf and the PGA is mostly fake outrage to justify the real issue, that the LIV is messing with a product we love, the PGA. I think that is real and justified anger. I hope the LIV fails and the all the best golfers are on one tour. I have no problem with LIV competing with the PGA but I think and hope the PGA will be ultimate winner.

I can not in good conscience root against the LIV due to the crap regime in SA without also stop buying Nike and Apple products and stop watching PGA and NBA events. (amongst many more products).

Hopefully the PGA continues with the recent changes to prioritize the players and squashes the LIV.

I think there's some validity to your argument.  Although some of Norman's comments were insanely idiotic.  Frankly we really have no way of determining which products we get from China are made from Uygur slaves. 

[Golden Avalanche]

Very interesting read, thanks

Just wanted to revisit this based on the last few posts of discussion.  And again, lest I sound like a SA apologist, I'm not, the dichotomy is just very interesting to me.

But MBS and this Saudi ruling government is NOTHING like SA 20 years ago under King Fahd.  Fahd a very strict conservative Muslim, incredibly anti-reform and anti-West.  He didn't want Saudis to have anything to do with the US or Europe.

MBS, for his many faults and black marks, has undone tons of what those successive generations had stood for and tried to move SA into modern and more Western ways.

SA is still a human rights disaster and he deserves much of the blame for that, but tying him to 9/11 is like trashing the philanthropy of an heir to a family fortune because his distant uncle, who he wasn't close to, used some of the same pool of money for nefarious means.  Plenty of clear and glaring reasons to crap on MBS and SA, I just don't think thats one of them.

Dunno, man, writing that a guy who

kidnapped people to extort their riches and then imprisoned them once they paid and

who has unilaterally executed people who were never convicted (much less saw a trial) and

who has brought untold human rights violations and suffering due to an egomaniacal proxy way and

who is recognizing Israel only because of his fear of Iran rather than some "progressive" mindset and

is actively blackmailing the USA because the White House occupants he bought and currently owns were voted out of office

is trying to modernize even through his black marks seems wildly naive.



The guy has effectively shown that making cosmetic changes (which he incrementally pulls back) that are decades overdue in any civil society worth its salt along with big splashy sporting events are just enough to get some people thinking "huh, maybe this murdering psychopath isn't so bad?"

[JWags85]

Dunno, man, writing that a guy who

kidnapped people to extort their riches and then imprisoned them once they paid and

who has unilaterally executed people who were never convicted (much less saw a trial) and

who has brought untold human rights violations and suffering due to an egomaniacal proxy way and

who is recognizing Israel only because of his fear of Iran rather than some "progressive" mindset and

is actively blackmailing the USA because the White House occupants he bought and currently owns were voted out of office

is trying to modernize even through his black marks seems wildly naive.



The guy has effectively shown that making cosmetic changes (which he incrementally pulls back) that are decades overdue in any civil society worth its salt along with big splashy sporting events are just enough to get some people thinking "huh, maybe this murdering psychopath isn't so bad?"

Pragmatism in international relations, especially with Israel, as opposed to just sitting on decades old policy, is progressive.  I never said he loves Israel. 

And tell the women of SA that the changes are "cosmetic" when they can now go to dinner or the movies by themselves, in a car they drove, much less leave the country.  And as I said, he GREATLY scaled back Wahhabism in government there.  No more religious police arresting people for violating Sharia law.  No more conservative clerics dictating rules and shunning all Western influence.  If you think he's gonna walk all that back moving forward, not sure what to tell you.

And the "anti-corruption" roundup at the Ritz is the exact nuance I was talking about.  It was absurd and unheard of in the West...but there was also some truth to the fact that many people had been taking advantage of the Saudi royal family to personally enrich or embezzle.

Again, Ive not excused anything.  The proxy war in Yemen is horrible.  The Tiger Squad and mass executions in SA are horrifying. 

But that can be parallel to the fact that SA has taken steps forward.  And I'm not sure it being decades overdue matters.  If another old Saudi prince took over and kept things the way it was and kept a major player in the region in the strict Islamic dark ages, that would also be quite bad.  I think the biggest issue with the progress in SA is not that its "cosmetic", its that MBS needs absolute credit and plaudits for it and won't let it appear he's been influenced.  Its like you having a great idea at work on how to fix a major problem in your company thats existed for years.  Your boss agrees and adopts the solution, but fires you for questioning how things are done.  Except with more prison and torture.

I'm not naive.  The LIV tour or buying Newcastle United or putting on concerts with western pop stars does nothing to make me be like "these are swell guys".  I just can acknowledge the shades of grey of all of this.

[Pakuni]

I'm not naive.  The LIV tour or buying Newcastle United or putting on concerts with western pop stars does nothing to make me be like "these are swell guys".  I just can acknowledge the shades of grey of all of this.

I dunno. Being really bad, but not as bad as his predecessors or as bad as he could be, still makes him ... really bad.
It's not as if all the terrible things he does/allows are requisite to the incremental progress being made in other areas. (And let's not go overboard here ... allowing women to drive or go outside by themselves does not make MBS some progressive hero. It just makes him slightly less backwards than those who came before him).
Ultimately, his oppression is not an unfortunate but necessary means to a benevolent end. He's still a dictator who routinely deprives people of their human rights and murders and imprisons political opponents.

It's an imperfect analogy, but it's akin to arguing that the enforcers of Jim Crow deserve some credit, because at least they were more progressive than the Fire-Eaters.

[JWags85]

I dunno. Being really bad, but not as bad as his predecessors or as bad as he could be, still makes him ... really bad.
It's not as if all the terrible things he does/allows are requisite to the incremental progress being made in other areas. (And let's not go overboard here ... allowing women to drive or go outside by themselves does not make MBS some progressive hero. It just makes him slightly less backwards than those who came before him).
Ultimately, his oppression is not an unfortunate but necessary means to a benevolent end. He's still a dictator who routinely deprives people of their human rights and murders and imprisons political opponents.

It's an imperfect analogy, but it's akin to arguing that the enforcers of Jim Crow deserve some credit, because at least they were more progressive than the Fire-Eaters.

Ive never tried to make him out to be a hero.  I'm just pointing out the actual progress that SA made and the difference between him and someone like Fahd years before.  SA can be a better place than it was in 2010 but still be nowhere where it should be and have a very problematic ruler.  Stalin was a POS but he helped save the world from the Nazis.  If SA continues on a progressive path, regardless of what goes on internally, and becomes more like the UAE in 10-20 years, I think that is at least some measure of a positive.

And I think a better analogy would be a segregationist who was anti-slavery

[WhiteTrash]

I think there's some validity to your argument.  Although some of Norman's comments were insanely idiotic.  Frankly we really have no way of determining which products we get from China are made from Uygur slaves.

Thank you. As for Norman, he's always stuck me as an arrogant pr!ck. I don't care for him at all. He's a good reason to not like LIV. But, I don't know maybe Jay Monahan is an arrogant d-bag too. I respect Monahan's decision on the LIV players even though I'm not sure its the right strategy but he has a hell of a fight on his hands. I might make the same decision if I was in his shoes. I do think he has to tread lightly (or not at all) on the human rights issues so as to not impugn his or the PGA's credibility.

[Uncle Rico]

Thank you. As for Norman, he's always stuck me as an arrogant pr!ck. I don't care for him at all. He's a good reason to not like LIV. But, I don't know maybe Jay Monahan is an arrogant d-bag too. I respect Monahan's decision on the LIV players even though I'm not sure its the right strategy but he has a hell of a fight on his hands. I might make the same decision if I was in his shoes. I do think he has to tread lightly (or not at all) on the human rights issues so as to not impugn his or the PGA's credibility.

Norman has wanted to crush the PGA Tour for years.  He never liked the meritocracy of it and thought that shouldn't have applied to him

[🏀]

JWags loving MBS is the least surprising development in Scoop history.

[Jockey]

Ive never tried to make him out to be a hero.  I'm just pointing out the actual progress that SA made and the difference between him and someone like Fahd years before.  SA can be a better place than it was in 2010 but still be nowhere where it should be and have a very problematic ruler.  Stalin was a POS but he helped save the world from the Nazis.  If SA continues on a progressive path, regardless of what goes on internally, and becomes more like the UAE in 10-20 years, I think that is at least some measure of a positive.

And I think a better analogy would be a segregationist who was anti-slavery

I choose not to support a Tour funded by a regime that has a rich terrorist history. And it certainly is not all in the past

I have no problem if you do support it (obviously I mean the tour, not their transgressions).

[JWags85]

JWags loving MBS is the least surprising development in Scoop history.

Ok dude.  Thats exactly what Ive said.  You parachuting in to threads with nothing meaningful except to be a snarky tool is equally unsurprising.

I choose not to support a Tour funded by a regime that has a rich terrorist history. And it certainly is not all in the past

I have no problem if you do support it (obviously I mean the tour, not their transgressions).

Fair enough.  If you chalk it up to regime, no real argument there.  Anything being done currently is still on the foundation of that past ruling regime.

But what do I know, Im just a blind naive MBS fanboy apparently.  I think I'm supposedly MAGA too.

[MuggsyB]

LiV golfers banned from the Scottish Open.