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Shot Distribution? by The Lens
[Today at 12:41:23 AM]


Brian Hamilton / The Athletic Article on MU by The Lens
[Today at 12:36:32 AM]


NM by GooooMarquette
[October 26, 2021, 10:57:25 PM]


The Athletic's Big East players poll by Hards_Alumni
[October 26, 2021, 09:03:52 PM]


Marquette/BC by Dr. Blackheart
[October 26, 2021, 01:24:08 PM]


The Shaka Era is happening! by Daniel
[October 26, 2021, 12:22:02 PM]


Big East 2021-2022 Season Thread by Billy Hoyle
[October 26, 2021, 11:58:38 AM]

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Author Topic: Athletic article on MU  (Read 2612 times)

MUDPT

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Shooter McGavin

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2021, 08:37:11 AM »
Agreed,  great article.  Excited to see the team and how they will progress this season.  Need a couple freshman to step up and be better than we expect.  Kam Jones is intriguing.

tower912

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2021, 08:43:13 AM »
All of the newcomers are intriguing.   Can they play big boy basketball against grown men?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Daniel

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2021, 08:57:32 AM »
Couldn’t read.   I don’t have sub.  But sounds exciting then!

4everwarriors

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2021, 09:02:20 AM »
What a breath of fresh air. Watchin' and listenin' ta Woj was about as excitin' and fragrant as fartin' in da bathtub, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

UWW2MU

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2021, 09:10:56 AM »
Couldn’t read.   I don’t have sub.  But sounds exciting then!

Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2021, 09:43:22 AM »
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stick with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 09:45:25 AM by Dr. Blackheart »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2021, 09:46:10 AM »
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stuck with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.


For his sake, I hope Wojo spends this year contemplating how to learn in a similar manner.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Jay Bee

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 09:50:46 AM »
We’ll know more about Shaka in five years. Until then, no opinions can be formed.

It was a fair article.

For me, I’m expecting a rocky season, but hoping we can get into some dogfights & pull off a few upsets.

If Justin elevates greatly and with Kur & DM on D, just need a couple of Frosh to step up and we could be in business. #Pray

Uncle Rico

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 10:18:36 AM »
Anything less than a national championship will be a failure and if he fails to produce it, I will cheer against him and the team starting next year
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

JakeBarnes

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 10:59:37 AM »
Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

Seconded. It's well worth the price
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


The Equalizer

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 11:19:18 AM »
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stick with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.

Of course, those "culture guys" Wright recruited after his supposed awakening still included many equally highly-rated players. Since the Big East split, he's never had fewer than five top 100 players on the roster, and in 2021 include seven top 75 players. It makes it easy to cut a poor cultural fit and still finish first in the conference when you've got the depth he has.   

I don't get the comparisons of Shaka's approach to Wright.  The notion that Shaka is somehow emulating Wright overlooks the fact that Villanova is still filling its roster with highly-rated recruits (who are supposedly the type of players that play the way Jay wants them to), while Shaka is intentionally pursuing lower-rated recruits (who presumably will play the way Shaka wants them to) only after trying to land similarly high-ranked recruits.

Since arriving at MU, he's attempted to land #30 Tamar Bates and #39 Jonas Aidoo last year, #34 Seth Trimble #59 Leon Bond, #60 Kam Craft, #71 Tre Holloman this year.  And looks like we're out on #68 AJ Casey.   He's still going after the high-rated players, just like Wright. 

 




The Lens

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 11:21:02 AM »

For his sake, I hope Wojo spends this year contemplating how to learn in a similar manner.

There's a recent Duke Brotherhood pic floating around IG where Wojo is standing between K & Quinn Snyder.  Quinn is dressed in all black bc he is the black sheep of that crowd.  Hopefully Wojo spend many hours in Utah picking Q's brain.  He runs a smart program with the Jazz and has successfully gotten out of K's shadow. 

Majerus once said, the biggest problem with K's guys is they all try and be K.  They have to be themselves.  I'm guessing that's a lesson Rick had to learn as well.
The Teal Train has left the station and Lens is day drinking in the bar car    ---- Dr. Blackheart

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2021, 11:21:03 AM »

tower912

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2021, 11:55:44 AM »
Nah.  New season, new coach.   It is as expected.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Jockey

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2021, 12:14:48 PM »
Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

For a real sports fan - full spectrum - it is the best spot on the interwebs.

Jockey

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2021, 12:36:33 PM »
“All culture for the first two years.”

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 01:19:24 PM »
Of course, those "culture guys" Wright recruited after his supposed awakening still included many equally highly-rated players. Since the Big East split, he's never had fewer than five top 100 players on the roster, and in 2021 include seven top 75 players. It makes it easy to cut a poor cultural fit and still finish first in the conference when you've got the depth he has.   

Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one).

2019 was his highest ranked year since 2009 (#5). Since then he's turned in a #107 ranked class in 2020 and a #22 ranked class in 2021.

If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players. But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in. Part of the key is bringing in players who don't expect to go pro after a year and are committed for multiple seasons.

Since arriving at MU, he's attempted to land #30 Tamar Bates and #39 Jonas Aidoo last year, #34 Seth Trimble #59 Leon Bond, #60 Kam Craft, #71 Tre Holloman this year.  And looks like we're out on #68 AJ Casey.   He's still going after the high-rated players, just like Wright. 

Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas. He's going after guys who will likely be in the program for multiple years and fit the culture he's trying build. And yes, he's also trying to recruit the most talented players who fit that mold. I'd also point out that most of the players the you list above were a lot lower ranked when Shaka started pursuing them. We've also seen him offer a lot of guys that are ranked nowhere near the top 100 because they are seemingly a fit for what he wants to do.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Shooter McGavin

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 04:15:20 PM »
Anything less than a national championship will be a failure and if he fails to produce it, I will cheer against him and the team starting next year

That’s pretty funny.  Nice one.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 04:16:31 PM »
Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one).

2019 was his highest ranked year since 2009 (#5). Since then he's turned in a #107 ranked class in 2020 and a #22 ranked class in 2021.

If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players. But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in. Part of the key is bringing in players who don't expect to go pro after a year and are committed for multiple seasons.

Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas. He's going after guys who will likely be in the program for multiple years and fit the culture he's trying build. And yes, he's also trying to recruit the most talented players who fit that mold. I'd also point out that most of the players the you list above were a lot lower ranked when Shaka started pursuing them. We've also seen him offer a lot of guys that are ranked nowhere near the top 100 because they are seemingly a fit for what he wants to do.

What he said ^^^

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2021, 04:29:42 PM »
Nah.  New season, new coach.   It is as expected.

Yeah that was 1/2 tongue in cheek, although I thought it quite the coincidence that I received the mini-plan email the same day as these articles were posted

MuggsyB

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2021, 05:07:18 PM »
We’ll know more about Shaka in five years. Until then, no opinions can be formed.

It was a fair article.

For me, I’m expecting a rocky season, but hoping we can get into some dogfights & pull off a few upsets.

If Justin elevates greatly and with Kur & DM on D, just need a couple of Frosh to step up and we could be in business. #Pray

What's your take on our 3pt shooting?  It's a concern for me along with PG play.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2021, 05:27:16 PM »
What's your take on our 3pt shooting? 



But dat defense doe
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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The Equalizer

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2021, 07:56:25 PM »
Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one)


Over the comparable period from 2015 to 2020 when Wright was at Villanova and Shaka at Texas, both coaches landed the exact same number of 5-star players (four).  Keep in mind, this was after Jay supposedly stopped recruiting such players, and before Shaka supposedly changed his approach to recruiting them.

BTW, Shaka's best performing team at Texas ('20-'21) had two five-stars he recruited on the roster. 

And here's a fun fact--under Jay Wright, Villanova has never made it out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament without at least one five-star player on the roster!

Seven NCAA trips that made it past the round of 32:

'05 Sweet 16 & '06 Elite Eight: (Jason Fraser & Kyle Lowry)
'08 Sweet 16 & '09 Final Four: (the two Coreys)
'16 Championship (Jalen Brunson)
'18 Championship (Brunson & Spellman)
'21 Sweet 16: (Robinson-Earl)

Brian Antione was a five-star also on the '21 team--but he was inured for much of the season and only played in the final 10 games.


If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

Yes. Nice players. Good enough to occasionally make the round of 32.  And necessary complements to the five-stars Wright had when he made deep runs in the tournament.

But the fact remains, Villanova didn't make it past the first weekend of the tourney without five-star talent in the mix.

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players.

Well, that's what was implied. 

Here're the exact quote that bugged me: "This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t)."


Two problems with this.

First, his early success absolutely was based on recruiting five-star talent. The 2005 Sweet 16 and 2006 Elite Eight teams included Lowry and Fraser. The 2008 Sweet 16 and 2009 Final Four run included Fisher & Stokes. The implication that he had success, and "then went the five-star route" is incorrect. 

Second, he never gave up on recruiting five-stars. Yes, he had bad luck with that 2009 recruiting class. But it didn't stop him from subsequently recruiting five-star Jalen Brunson, without whom there would arguably have been no Villanova national championships.  And  Villanova wouldn't have dominated the Big East the past two years without five-star Jereimah Robinson-Earl.   

But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in.

I would disagree that he "tried" the Duke/Kentucky approach and it didn't work.  It did work with Lowery and Fraser, and then again with Fischer and Stokes.  It didn't with the 2009 group.


Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas.


Well, Wright is still going after and landing five-stars, and they are obviously critical to his teams' success.

And he and Shaka each recruited the same number of five-star players during the time when Shaka was at Texas. If Shaka has changed his approach to recruiting five-star players since leaving Texas, then he's not at all like Wright.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Athletic article on MU
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2021, 09:01:05 PM »
Pretty damn good post equalizer!

 

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