MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MUDPT on October 13, 2021, 07:49:32 AM

Title: Athletic article on MU
Post by: MUDPT on October 13, 2021, 07:49:32 AM
https://theathletic.com/2873095/2021/10/13/shaka-smart-knows-how-hell-build-marquette-all-culture-defense-first/?amp

Hard not to be excited after reading that.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 13, 2021, 08:37:11 AM
Agreed,  great article.  Excited to see the team and how they will progress this season.  Need a couple freshman to step up and be better than we expect.  Kam Jones is intriguing.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: tower912 on October 13, 2021, 08:43:13 AM
All of the newcomers are intriguing.   Can they play big boy basketball against grown men?
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Daniel on October 13, 2021, 08:57:32 AM
Couldn’t read.   I don’t have sub.  But sounds exciting then!
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2021, 09:02:20 AM
What a breath of fresh air. Watchin' and listenin' ta Woj was about as excitin' and fragrant as fartin' in da bathtub, hey?
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: UWW2MU on October 13, 2021, 09:10:56 AM
Couldn’t read.   I don’t have sub.  But sounds exciting then!

Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on October 13, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stick with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on October 13, 2021, 09:46:10 AM
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stuck with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.


For his sake, I hope Wojo spends this year contemplating how to learn in a similar manner.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Jay Bee on October 13, 2021, 09:50:46 AM
We’ll know more about Shaka in five years. Until then, no opinions can be formed.

It was a fair article.

For me, I’m expecting a rocky season, but hoping we can get into some dogfights & pull off a few upsets.

If Justin elevates greatly and with Kur & DM on D, just need a couple of Frosh to step up and we could be in business. #Pray
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Uncle Rico on October 13, 2021, 10:18:36 AM
Anything less than a national championship will be a failure and if he fails to produce it, I will cheer against him and the team starting next year
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: JakeBarnes on October 13, 2021, 10:59:37 AM
Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

Seconded. It's well worth the price
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Equalizer on October 13, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
To paraphrase, the article says the ceiling is (hopefully) making the NCAAT. The basement is last in the BE. Scoop would be apoplectic on the later.

To me, the article was more about Smart hitting reset on his career. He had early success with recruiting “his guys”, but lost his way a bit with the five stars at Texas. This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t).

I like that Smart is willing to learn from his mistakes. That was a Wojo issue as he would only stick with the “Duke Way”. MU bet big time on this move, let’s see how it proceeds. To me, it will take three years to judge, but this year may be a sawtoothed rough ride. At least this team will play defense.

Of course, those "culture guys" Wright recruited after his supposed awakening still included many equally highly-rated players. Since the Big East split, he's never had fewer than five top 100 players on the roster, and in 2021 include seven top 75 players. It makes it easy to cut a poor cultural fit and still finish first in the conference when you've got the depth he has.   

I don't get the comparisons of Shaka's approach to Wright.  The notion that Shaka is somehow emulating Wright overlooks the fact that Villanova is still filling its roster with highly-rated recruits (who are supposedly the type of players that play the way Jay wants them to), while Shaka is intentionally pursuing lower-rated recruits (who presumably will play the way Shaka wants them to) only after trying to land similarly high-ranked recruits.

Since arriving at MU, he's attempted to land #30 Tamar Bates and #39 Jonas Aidoo last year, #34 Seth Trimble #59 Leon Bond, #60 Kam Craft, #71 Tre Holloman this year.  And looks like we're out on #68 AJ Casey.   He's still going after the high-rated players, just like Wright. 

 



Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Lens on October 13, 2021, 11:21:02 AM

For his sake, I hope Wojo spends this year contemplating how to learn in a similar manner.

There's a recent Duke Brotherhood pic floating around IG where Wojo is standing between K & Quinn Snyder.  Quinn is dressed in all black bc he is the black sheep of that crowd.  Hopefully Wojo spend many hours in Utah picking Q's brain.  He runs a smart program with the Jazz and has successfully gotten out of K's shadow. 

Majerus once said, the biggest problem with K's guys is they all try and be K.  They have to be themselves.  I'm guessing that's a lesson Rick had to learn as well.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on October 13, 2021, 11:21:03 AM
Nice Shaka article on jsonline today as well. https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2021/10/13/new-coach-shaka-smart-instilling-culture-at-marquette/6033194001/

PR machine on overdrive?
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: tower912 on October 13, 2021, 11:55:44 AM
Nah.  New season, new coach.   It is as expected.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Jockey on October 13, 2021, 12:14:48 PM
Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

For a real sports fan - full spectrum - it is the best spot on the interwebs.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Jockey on October 13, 2021, 12:36:33 PM
“All culture for the first two years.”
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2021, 01:19:24 PM
Of course, those "culture guys" Wright recruited after his supposed awakening still included many equally highly-rated players. Since the Big East split, he's never had fewer than five top 100 players on the roster, and in 2021 include seven top 75 players. It makes it easy to cut a poor cultural fit and still finish first in the conference when you've got the depth he has.   

Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one).

2019 was his highest ranked year since 2009 (#5). Since then he's turned in a #107 ranked class in 2020 and a #22 ranked class in 2021.

If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players. But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in. Part of the key is bringing in players who don't expect to go pro after a year and are committed for multiple seasons.

Since arriving at MU, he's attempted to land #30 Tamar Bates and #39 Jonas Aidoo last year, #34 Seth Trimble #59 Leon Bond, #60 Kam Craft, #71 Tre Holloman this year.  And looks like we're out on #68 AJ Casey.   He's still going after the high-rated players, just like Wright. 

Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas. He's going after guys who will likely be in the program for multiple years and fit the culture he's trying build. And yes, he's also trying to recruit the most talented players who fit that mold. I'd also point out that most of the players the you list above were a lot lower ranked when Shaka started pursuing them. We've also seen him offer a lot of guys that are ranked nowhere near the top 100 because they are seemingly a fit for what he wants to do.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 13, 2021, 04:15:20 PM
Anything less than a national championship will be a failure and if he fails to produce it, I will cheer against him and the team starting next year

That’s pretty funny.  Nice one.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on October 13, 2021, 04:16:31 PM
Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one).

2019 was his highest ranked year since 2009 (#5). Since then he's turned in a #107 ranked class in 2020 and a #22 ranked class in 2021.

If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players. But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in. Part of the key is bringing in players who don't expect to go pro after a year and are committed for multiple seasons.

Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas. He's going after guys who will likely be in the program for multiple years and fit the culture he's trying build. And yes, he's also trying to recruit the most talented players who fit that mold. I'd also point out that most of the players the you list above were a lot lower ranked when Shaka started pursuing them. We've also seen him offer a lot of guys that are ranked nowhere near the top 100 because they are seemingly a fit for what he wants to do.

What he said ^^^
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on October 13, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Nah.  New season, new coach.   It is as expected.

Yeah that was 1/2 tongue in cheek, although I thought it quite the coincidence that I received the mini-plan email the same day as these articles were posted
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: MuggsyB on October 13, 2021, 05:07:18 PM
We’ll know more about Shaka in five years. Until then, no opinions can be formed.

It was a fair article.

For me, I’m expecting a rocky season, but hoping we can get into some dogfights & pull off a few upsets.

If Justin elevates greatly and with Kur & DM on D, just need a couple of Frosh to step up and we could be in business. #Pray

What's your take on our 3pt shooting?  It's a concern for me along with PG play.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2021, 05:27:16 PM
What's your take on our 3pt shooting? 

(https://c.tenor.com/evYnxaTpMW0AAAAC/charles-barkley-turrible.gif)

But dat defense doe
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Equalizer on October 13, 2021, 07:56:25 PM
Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one)


Over the comparable period from 2015 to 2020 when Wright was at Villanova and Shaka at Texas, both coaches landed the exact same number of 5-star players (four).  Keep in mind, this was after Jay supposedly stopped recruiting such players, and before Shaka supposedly changed his approach to recruiting them.

BTW, Shaka's best performing team at Texas ('20-'21) had two five-stars he recruited on the roster. 

And here's a fun fact--under Jay Wright, Villanova has never made it out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament without at least one five-star player on the roster!

Seven NCAA trips that made it past the round of 32:

'05 Sweet 16 & '06 Elite Eight: (Jason Fraser & Kyle Lowry)
'08 Sweet 16 & '09 Final Four: (the two Coreys)
'16 Championship (Jalen Brunson)
'18 Championship (Brunson & Spellman)
'21 Sweet 16: (Robinson-Earl)

Brian Antione was a five-star also on the '21 team--but he was inured for much of the season and only played in the final 10 games.


If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

Yes. Nice players. Good enough to occasionally make the round of 32.  And necessary complements to the five-stars Wright had when he made deep runs in the tournament.

But the fact remains, Villanova didn't make it past the first weekend of the tourney without five-star talent in the mix.

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players.

Well, that's what was implied. 

Here're the exact quote that bugged me: "This reminds me of Jay Wright’s journey where he had success, then went the five star route but blew that up due to culture issues, and then recruited culture guys who would stick around to play his way (or cut them loose early if they wouldn’t)."


Two problems with this.

First, his early success absolutely was based on recruiting five-star talent. The 2005 Sweet 16 and 2006 Elite Eight teams included Lowry and Fraser. The 2008 Sweet 16 and 2009 Final Four run included Fisher & Stokes. The implication that he had success, and "then went the five-star route" is incorrect. 

Second, he never gave up on recruiting five-stars. Yes, he had bad luck with that 2009 recruiting class. But it didn't stop him from subsequently recruiting five-star Jalen Brunson, without whom there would arguably have been no Villanova national championships.  And  Villanova wouldn't have dominated the Big East the past two years without five-star Jereimah Robinson-Earl.   

But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in.

I would disagree that he "tried" the Duke/Kentucky approach and it didn't work.  It did work with Lowery and Fraser, and then again with Fischer and Stokes.  It didn't with the 2009 group.


Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas.


Well, Wright is still going after and landing five-stars, and they are obviously critical to his teams' success.

And he and Shaka each recruited the same number of five-star players during the time when Shaka was at Texas. If Shaka has changed his approach to recruiting five-star players since leaving Texas, then he's not at all like Wright.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 13, 2021, 09:01:05 PM
Pretty damn good post equalizer!
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Everyone would like to believe Marquette hired the next Jay Wright every time they hire a coach. 

I hope Shaka is Marquette's Jay Wright.  I have many doubts.  But I hope he's given a chance, and his guys win a lot.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2021, 09:45:13 PM

You could have just said I'm going to shift the goalpost from:

Of course, those "culture guys" Wright recruited after his supposed awakening still included many equally highly-rated players.

to

"Wright still occasionally recruits 5-stars" (5 in the past 12 years after recruiting 3 in a single class).

It would have saved a lot of time.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on October 13, 2021, 10:25:00 PM
Everyone would like to believe Marquette hired the next Jay Wright every time they hire a coach. 

I hope Shaka is Marquette's Jay Wright.  I have many doubts.  But I hope he's given a chance, and his guys win a lot.

Many of us hope that Shaka is not MU's next Wojo.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2021, 10:28:02 PM
Many of us hope that Shaka is not MU's next Wojo.

I think more Crean with a better personality.  Which may be enough...
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on October 13, 2021, 11:52:50 PM
You could have just said I'm going to shift the goalpost from:

to

"Wright still occasionally recruits 5-stars" (5 in the past 12 years after recruiting 3 in a single class).

It would have saved a lot of time.

Straight to the source...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vuhoops.com/platform/amp/villanova-basketball/2019/4/3/18293214/what-if-wednesday-what-if-jay-wright-never-changed-his-recruiting-style-villanova-basketball
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: MU82 on October 13, 2021, 11:54:57 PM
I second other posters who said that this was an outstanding article and also that The Athletic is well worth the price. Even the regular price is worth it; the deal they offer every year is a steal.

As for what was in the article, this quote from Shaka jumped out at me:

“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

That, along with Shaka pointing out his “All culture for the first two years” line in the journal he kept is a coach being very realistic while also intelligently covering his butt.

If Marquette makes the NCAAs this season, Shaka will have outperformed expectations, including his own. If the first couple of years don't live up to the lofty expectations of some fans (including some Scoopers), Shaka can say, "I told you it wasn't a quick fix. Stick with us. We're getting better."

I also thought Elliott was insightful and sounded incredibly mature. I'm thinking he and Morsell will be the captains of our 2021-22 squad.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: 4everwarriors on October 14, 2021, 04:00:21 AM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Daniel on October 14, 2021, 07:35:44 AM
Around black Friday / Cyber Monday you can pick up an annual subscription for like $10-20.   It's well worth it.

Ty!
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: GOO on October 14, 2021, 07:51:04 AM
For those of us without a subscription, can we get a few bullet points or a short summary of the article. Any tidbits on particular players or more big picture?
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Lens on October 14, 2021, 10:00:26 AM
For those of us without a subscription, can we get a few bullet points or a short summary of the article. Any tidbits on particular players or more big picture?

I would advise against anyone doing this b/c you're enabling GOO to live without the best sports content on earth.  Honestly, the Athletic is the last subscription I would give up.  Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+ whatever; The Athletic is the best.  Get it, now.   
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2021, 10:09:27 AM
I would advise against anyone doing this b/c you're enabling GOO to live without the best sports content on earth.  Honestly, the Athletic is the last subscription I would give up.  Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+ whatever; The Athletic is the best.  Get it, now.

They have zero GAA coverage, and bad boxing coverage, and I can't remember the quality of the rugby coverage but I don't recall being impressed.

Maybe the best pertaining to American sports but boy is this a miss guided statement.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Lens on October 14, 2021, 10:20:31 AM
They have zero GAA coverage, and bad boxing coverage, and I can't remember the quality of the rugby coverage but I don't recall being impressed.

Maybe the best pertaining to American sports but boy is this a miss guided statement.

So what individual site is better? 
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2021, 10:23:56 AM
So what individual site is better?

Depends on your sporting interests.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: JakeBarnes on October 14, 2021, 10:32:01 AM
They have zero GAA coverage, and bad boxing coverage, and I can't remember the quality of the rugby coverage but I don't recall being impressed.

Maybe the best pertaining to American sports but boy is this a miss guided statement.

Boxing has been bad at covering itself for a while now. I'd agree that rugby is a blind spot for sure along with F1.

That said, for the sports most people care about in the US, The Athletic is where all the good SI and good local paper writing went. Really great in-depth coverage for the sports they focus on.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2021, 10:41:08 AM
Boxing has been bad at covering itself for a while now. I'd agree that rugby is a blind spot for sure along with F1.

That said, for the sports most people care about in the US, The Athletic is where all the good SI and good local paper writing went. Really great in-depth coverage for the sports they focus on.

100% I just enjoy calling people out when they think the entire world is waiting on the edge of their seats to follow US sports. The Athletic is definitely the gold standard for any US sports fan.

Bad left hook is solid at boxing coverage but overall I agree with you there about bad at covering itself.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Lens on October 14, 2021, 11:00:41 AM
100% I just enjoy calling people out when they think the entire world is waiting on the edge of their seats to follow US sports. The Athletic is definitely the gold standard for any US sports fan.

Bad left hook is solid at boxing coverage but overall I agree with you there about bad at covering itself.

Is there a single better sports publication on Earth?  I'm not saying it doesn't have blind spots, I'm just saying it has fewer than others. 
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: The Equalizer on October 14, 2021, 11:11:37 AM


(5 in the past 12 years after recruiting 3 in a single class).

I don't think "5 in 12" accurately reflects Wright's recruiting (and subsequent performance) following that disastrous 2009 class.  Those five weren't spread out over twelve years. They were concentrated in one five year period:

2010 to 2014:  Recruited zero five-stars. Only 4 NCAA bids in the subsequent years:  two first-round losses, two first-round wins.
2015 to 2019:  Recruited five five-stars. 5 NCAA bids, two National Championships, and first-round wins in the other three years.

Maybe it was true that Wright avoided five-stars for a while after getting burned in 2009, but fans weren't happy with the results. So starting in 2015 he went back to the five-star well (perhaps being a bit more selective) and started winning again.

But the record is clear--Wright did not succeed without five-star players on his roster.

You could have just said I'm going to shift the goalpost from:

to

"Wright still occasionally recruits 5-stars" (5 in the past 12 years after recruiting 3 in a single class).

It would have saved a lot of time.

I don't think the point was about Wright recruiting three five-stars in a single class. 

And after 2009, Wright didn't "occasionally" land a five-star player over a 12 year period.  He stopped completely for five years, didn't win, then got aggressive again, and started to win again.

The narrative that Wright only started to win after he stopped recruiting five-stars is a bust.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: muwarrior69 on October 14, 2021, 11:38:50 AM
Not equally high-rated. The class that supposedly got Wright into trouble was his 2009 class where he picked up 3 5-star recruits and a top 65 4-star for the #4 rated class in the country (all numbers from 247).

From 2010 to 2017, Wright recruited 2 five stars (one in 2015 and one in 2016) and didn't have a single class ranked higher than #22 in the country.

In 2018, he landed his first top 10 (#9) class since 2009. The results? Top recruit Jahvon Quinerley was quickly bounced. Second highest rated recruit Cole Swider was a bench player who eventually transferred. Third highest rated recruit Brandon Slater has been a perpetual bench player. Only the lowest rated recruit, Saddiq Bey, ranked #137, ended up being a success (and a massive one).

2019 was his highest ranked year since 2009 (#5). Since then he's turned in a #107 ranked class in 2020 and a #22 ranked class in 2021.

If you look back at the best Nova players during this stretch, here are some of their rankings:
#49 Daniel Ochefu
#51 James Bell
#57 Ryan Arcidiacono
#57 Justin Moore
#60 Jayvaughn Pinkston
#75 Phil Booth
#76 Kris Jenkins
#79 Josh Hart
#81 Mikal Bridges
#124 Donte DiVincenzo
#137 Saddiq Bey
#200 Collin Gillespie
#274 Darrun Hilliard

No one said Wright stopped bringing in talented players. But he tried the Duke/Kentucky approach of bringing in a bunch of 5-star freshmen and it didn't work. He adjusted and started recruiting guys who were primarily ranked in the 50s or lower with occasional low-level 5-stars sprinkled in. Part of the key is bringing in players who don't expect to go pro after a year and are committed for multiple seasons.

Like Wright, he's not going after the 5-stars the way he used to at Texas. He's going after guys who will likely be in the program for multiple years and fit the culture he's trying build. And yes, he's also trying to recruit the most talented players who fit that mold. I'd also point out that most of the players the you list above were a lot lower ranked when Shaka started pursuing them. We've also seen him offer a lot of guys that are ranked nowhere near the top 100 because they are seemingly a fit for what he wants to do.

I'll be more than happy if Shaka can get his guys to play the way Buzz got his guys to play for MU.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 14, 2021, 02:15:12 PM
2015 to 2019:  Recruited five five-stars. 5 NCAA bids, two National Championships, and first-round wins in the other three years.

If you want to break down that period, fine but be honest about it. Here's a more accurate picture:

2015 to 2017: Recruited two five stars. 3 NCAA bids, two National Championship, and one first-round win.

Three of the 5 stars came after the two national championships. And both of those 5-stars were multi-year guys. And while Brunson was the star of the second championship (with #81 Mikal Bridges as a very close co-star), Brunson was the 4th or 5th starter on the first championship team. That team was lead by #79 Josh Hart, #76 Kris Jenkins, #57 Ryan Arcidiacono, and #49 Daniel Ochefu.

The narrative that Wright only started to win after he stopped recruiting five-stars is a bust.

That's what you have decided the narrative is. No one has ever said that he only started to win after stopped recruiting 5-stars. What people have said is that started winning by focusing on culture instead of rankings. In 2009, he didn't focus culture and focused on accumulating as many highly ranked players as possible. It was a disaster. Since then, he has focused on culture again and yes trying to get as talented of players as possible who fits his culture. You'll notice that he hasn't recruited a single one and done player during that stretch. It's all guys who commit for multiple seasons. Like Dr. B pointed out, this is from the man himself: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vuhoops.com/platform/amp/villanova-basketball/2019/4/3/18293214/what-if-wednesday-what-if-jay-wright-never-changed-his-recruiting-style-villanova-basketball
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2021, 02:40:06 PM
Is there a single better sports publication on Earth?  I'm not saying it doesn't have blind spots, I'm just saying it has fewer than others.

I'd say Sky Sports has the least blind spots, but if your focus is American sports (which they do cover) you're going to focus much more on those blind spots and less on the coverage that is better than the Athletic. It's why I said that it depends on what sports you're interested in.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Uncle Rico on October 14, 2021, 02:41:32 PM
I'd say Sky Sports has the least blind spots, but if your focus is American sports (which they do cover) you're going to focus much more on those blind spots and less on the coverage that is better than the Athletic. It's why I said that it depends on what sports you're interested in.

The Athletic needs an investigative arm.  A lot, I mean a lot, is fluff. 
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: MU82 on October 14, 2021, 03:03:52 PM
The Athletic needs an investigative arm.  A lot, I mean a lot, is fluff.

That would be a welcome (but expensive) addition.

I don't know if I'd use "fluff" for what they do, though.

The Panthers reporter, for example, breaks quite a bit of news. He doesn't sugarcoat poor play or coaching, and I consider him to be quite objective.
Title: Re: Athletic article on MU
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on October 14, 2021, 04:01:20 PM
I subscribed for 1 year a few years ago and never renewed. While there was occasionally articles that interested me there really were not very many IMO.