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Author Topic: NBA 75th Anniversary Team  (Read 6480 times)

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2021, 10:36:24 AM »
JWags and Fluffy:  Is defense part of the game?  Do you realize that Klay Thompson is a way better defender than both Miller and Allen.  It's not close.  How on earth is it "crazy" to think he's better than these guys?  This is a dude who dropped 37 in a quarter.  He's always had to play 2nd fiddle to Steph but he's a tremendous, tremendous, player, and unselfish.  I think both of you are wrong. 

Reggie Miller win shares per 48:  .174
Ray Allen: .150
Klay Thompson:  .110

Reggie Miller was a gifted offensive player during an era where defense was much rougher than it is now. And he was an alpha player whose second best was…an old Chris Mullen?  Mark Jackson?  Rik Smits?

I think Ray Allen is arguable. Reggie Miller is absolutely not.
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JWags85

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2021, 10:50:42 AM »
I have no idea what George Gervin or Bird have to with Adrian Dantley.  You're saying he wasn't one of the best scorers?  I'm I reading his career stats incorrectly?

I said Melo, for a time, was the best scorer on the planet.  I'm not talking NBA scoring leader or just pure stats.  I'm talking game, ability, etc...  Gervin, Bird, those were contemporaries of Dantley who were better scorers than he was.  Dantley was a nice player but he put up a lot of empty numbers on mediocre Jazz teams.  Melo started more playoff games by age 22 than Dantley did before he turned 30.

And nobody is saying Klay isnt a great player or a great shooter, but he's literally played off the best shooter in NBA history his entire career.  Melo, Allen, Reggie...they were all scoring as the man for large portions of their career.

And Klay is an underrated defender, absolutely.  But you're making him out to be Ben Wallace.  He's not even the best defender on his own team, a team that is not known for being a defensive stalwart.  Oh and "unselfish"?  Klay averages 2.3 assists a game for his career.  Ray Allen never averaged under 2.5 assists a game for an entire season until his late 30s when he was only a role player.  His rebounding also dwarfs Klay.

MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2021, 10:52:06 AM »
Reggie Miller win shares per 48:  .174
Ray Allen: .150
Klay Thompson:  .110

Reggie Miller was a gifted offensive player during an era where defense was much rougher than it is now. And he was an alpha player whose second best was…an old Chris Mullen?  Mark Jackson?  Rik Smits?

I think Ray Allen is arguable. Reggie Miller is absolutely not.

So if it was much harder to score why aren't Dantley, English, and King on the list instead of today's scorers?   Those Indiana teams were very good even if they didn't have a bona fide number two scorer.  My take is Klay Thompson could be an alpha on another team and is so much better as a defender that I would take him ahead of Miller or Allen.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2021, 10:59:40 AM »
Reggie Miller win shares per 48:  .174
Ray Allen: .150
Klay Thompson:  .110

Reggie Miller was a gifted offensive player during an era where defense was much rougher than it is now. And he was an alpha player whose second best was…an old Chris Mullen?  Mark Jackson?  Rik Smits?

I think Ray Allen is arguable. Reggie Miller is absolutely not.

Also, Thompson's best year was 8.8 win shares.  Allen had 9 seasons 8.9 or higher, and Miller had 13.

I like Klay a lot but his resume doesn't stack up as an all time great.

MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2021, 11:10:18 AM »
Jwags, as far as Dantley vs Gervin they have similar career stats.  Dantley was a career 24.3 scorer and shot .540 from the field.  it was well before my time but why is Gervin an auto pick over him?  Were his stats legitimate and Dantley's "empty"?  From what I can see both were top scorers in the league for a significant period of time.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2021, 11:26:16 AM »
So if it was much harder to score why aren't Dantley, English, and King on the list instead of today's scorers?   Those Indiana teams were very good even if they didn't have a bona fide number two scorer.  My take is Klay Thompson could be an alpha on another team and is so much better as a defender that I would take him ahead of Miller or Allen.


And I will take Miller and my team would win. 

Honestly, you have provided nothing but opinion about why Klay is better because statistically it isn't really close. 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2021, 11:30:03 AM »
Jwags, as far as Dantley vs Gervin they have similar career stats.  Dantley was a career 24.3 scorer and shot .540 from the field.  it was well before my time but why is Gervin an auto pick over him?  Were his stats legitimate and Dantley's "empty"?  From what I can see both were top scorers in the league for a significant period of time.


George Gervin was a five time first team all NBA and two time second team and is in the Hall of Fame.

Dantley twice second team and isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Sometimes you just have to look at how they were viewed respectively during their times and the answer is obvious.
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MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2021, 11:46:52 AM »

And I will take Miller and my team would win. 

Honestly, you have provided nothing but opinion about why Klay is better because statistically it isn't really close.

"Statistically it's not close".  Their career stats are very similar. 

JWags85

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2021, 11:57:14 AM »
"Statistically it's not close".  Their career stats are very similar.

Again, context matters.

When Reggie became a starter in 1989, through the end of his career in 2005, the Pacers averaged more than 100 pts in only 5 seasons.  In that time, there were more seasons that they averaged 95 or less points than averaged more than 100.

Meanwhile, Klay's Warriors have averaged more than 110 pts a game his entire career except for a season they averaged 106, multiple times averaging over 115.

The fact that Reggie and Klay have similar stats when one attracted constant defensive attention, didn't have an arguable top 25 player next to him, and played on a very low scoring team speaks volumes about Reggie's stats.  Thats why his win share is so much higher.

Jockey

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2021, 12:23:04 PM »
Again, context matters.

When Reggie became a starter in 1989, through the end of his career in 2005, the Pacers averaged more than 100 pts in only 5 seasons.  In that time, there were more seasons that they averaged 95 or less points than averaged more than 100.

Meanwhile, Klay's Warriors have averaged more than 110 pts a game his entire career except for a season they averaged 106, multiple times averaging over 115.



You leave out the obvious. Klays teams scored more because they had better players. Reggie's teams scored less because they didn't have any great player. Reggie's numbers are somewhat like Kevin Love's numbers on Minnesota. The best offensive player on a bad offensive team will score a crap ton of points. It doesn't mean he is comparable to guys who score the same on a loaded team.  BTW I am not saying Klay is a better player than the other 2 guys.


That being said, the entire argument really doesn't matter as to these 3 guys. Who would you take on your team? If you have any brain at all, you know it depends on the team makeups.

Klay is absolutely the best for GS, Reggie or Allen would have been the better fit for certain other teams (i.e. Reggie would be far and away the best fit of the 3 for the current 76ers team).

MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2021, 12:33:13 PM »
You leave out the obvious. Klays teams scored more because they had better players. Reggie's teams scored less because they didn't have any great player. Reggie's numbers are somewhat like Kevin Love's numbers on Minnesota. The best offensive player on a bad offensive team will score a crap ton of points. It doesn't mean he is comparable to guys who score the same on a loaded team.  BTW I am not saying Klay is a better player than the other 2 guys.


That being said, the entire argument really doesn't matter as to these 3 guys. Who would you take on your team? If you have any brain at all, you know it depends on the team makeups.

Klay is absolutely the best for GS, Reggie or Allen would have been the better fit for certain other teams (i.e. Reggie would be far and away the best fit of the 3 for the current 76ers team).

We honestly don't know that.  I think Klay could have been an Alpha like Miller.  I also think he's a significantly better defender.  As far as Allen I think Klay could have easily played his role on Boston or Miami.  We have seen Klay take over games in the playoffs as well.  I think all of you are selling the guy short for some reason and are underestimating the defensive end of the floor.  I recall him shutting down al lot of good players during playoff runs.   Guys that can drop 37 in a quarter can be alphas imo.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2021, 12:45:41 PM »
You leave out the obvious. Klays teams scored more because they had better players. Reggie's teams scored less because they didn't have any great player. Reggie's numbers are somewhat like Kevin Love's numbers on Minnesota. The best offensive player on a bad offensive team will score a crap ton of points. It doesn't mean he is comparable to guys who score the same on a loaded team.  BTW I am not saying Klay is a better player than the other 2 guys.


The Reggie Miller Pacers were way better than the Kevin Love T Wolves.  For goodness sakes in a seven year stretch, they made five conference finals and one NBA Finals.  Love's Wolves teams never made the playoffs.

So sure Klay's teammates were a step above Reggie's, but Reggie's were WAY better than Love's.
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JWags85

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2021, 12:51:01 PM »
We honestly don't know that.  I think Klay could have been an Alpha like Miller.  I also think he's a significantly better defender.  As far as Allen I think Klay could have easily played his role on Boston or Miami.  We have seen Klay take over games in the playoffs as well.  I think all of you are selling the guy short for some reason and are underestimating the defensive end of the floor.  I recall him shutting down al lot of good players during playoff runs.   Guys that can drop 37 in a quarter can be alphas imo.

Thats not a great argument considering that was Allen in his mid to late 30s on the downside of his career.  He's on this list cause of his years in Milwaukee and Seattle when he was an incredible player.  Not when he was a good to very good player in a supporting role on stacked teams.

And again, just wild speculation.  Klay scored his 60 point game will 11 total dribbles.  You don't think that was a function of playing with Curry and Durant?  And yes he's a good defender, but you're taking a guy that has ONE All-Defensive team selection, a 2nd team at that, and making him out to be some Tony Allen defensive stopper who should be put on All Time lists cause of EXCEPTIONAL defense.

MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2021, 12:59:11 PM »
Thats not a great argument considering that was Allen in his mid to late 30s on the downside of his career.  He's on this list cause of his years in Milwaukee and Seattle when he was an incredible player.  Not when he was a good to very good player in a supporting role on stacked teams.

And again, just wild speculation.  Klay scored his 60 point game will 11 total dribbles.  You don't think that was a function of playing with Curry and Durant?  And yes he's a good defender, but you're taking a guy that has ONE All-Defensive team selection, a 2nd team at that, and making him out to be some Tony Allen defensive stopper who should be put on All Time lists cause of EXCEPTIONAL defense.

We will agree to disagree.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2021, 01:47:03 PM »
"Statistically it's not close".  Their career stats are very similar.

Look beyond basic stats. The advanced stats aren't close.
Also, Thompson's best year was 8.8 win shares.  Allen had 9 seasons 8.9 or higher, and Miller had 13.


Reggie Miller win shares per 48:  .174
Ray Allen: .150
Klay Thompson:  .110


Uncle Rico

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2021, 01:57:46 PM »
I’m a Ray Allen fan.  Reggie Miller was much better
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2021, 05:33:24 PM »
Klay is nowhere near a top-75 player.

If we’re going to bring up Walton’s injury issues, then you have to consider the fact that Klay hasn’t played a game in two years.

Plus I truly believe Klay is nowhere near as successful if he doesn’t have someone like Curry playing next to him that can give him floor space.

If anybody got robbed, it’s Alex English.

wadesworld

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2021, 05:58:47 PM »
Klay is nowhere near a top-75 player.

If we’re going to bring up Walton’s injury issues, then you have to consider the fact that Klay hasn’t played a game in two years.

Plus I truly believe Klay is nowhere near as successful if he doesn’t have someone like Curry playing next to him that can give him floor space.

If anybody got robbed, it’s Alex English.

Klay does not need space and really isn’t given space. He’s not the one benefitting from Steph, it’s the guys behind him.
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JWags85

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2021, 06:17:10 PM »
Klay does not need space and really isn’t given space. He’s not the one benefitting from Steph, it’s the guys behind him.

Its not space per se, but its attention and being blanketed.

Through 2019, Klay shot 48.5%/43.4%/85.7% with Steph, and 44.7%/35.9%/77.9% without him.

Jockey

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2021, 06:47:23 PM »
Klay is nowhere near a top-75 player.

If anybody got robbed, it’s Alex English.

I loved English's game and he had a stretch of about 10 years where he could score at will (25+) without the added benefit of the 3 point shot. Plus he was an outstanding rebounder as a young guy.

I would rate him somewhere between 80-100. In Bill Simmon's excellent "Book of Basketball" 1st published in 2009, he was rated #65 all-time (2 spots bellow Reggie Miller).

Just a note about Dantley who was mentioned earlier. He retired with the highest fG% for a non-center in NBA history, And if you weren't around to see him, you'll likely never get a chance to see someone like him. Barely 6'4" and strictly a post-up and in the lane player who couldn't be stopped. Those guys aren't around anymore. Used his body for positioning as well as anyone ever. Also a guy teams couldn't wait to get rid of.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2021, 06:34:47 AM »
You would think that the Bucks' retiring Ray Allen's number is a no brainer considering his inclusion on this list.  I mean, they retired Brian Winters' and Junior Bridgeman's right?

Of course the one issue is that the best player in franchise history is currently wearing the same number.
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MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2021, 11:37:20 AM »
I just heard an interview with BJ Armstrong.   He stated that Arvydas Sabonis is one of the 25 best players of all-time.  He wasn't making the case that he should be on the 75th list because he came to the NBA well past his prime, but he described Arvydas as a bigger, stronger, more athletic Jokic.  Did any of you see him play before he came to the NBA?  Armstrong said in college he played on a team with David Robinson and Arvydas shredded him quite easily.  :)

Uncle Rico

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2021, 11:45:26 AM »
I just heard an interview with BJ Armstrong.   He stated that Arvydas Sabonis is one of the 25 best players of all-time.  He wasn't making the case that he should be on the 75th list because he came to the NBA well past his prime, but he described Arvydas as a bigger, stronger, more athletic Jokic.  Did any of you see him play before he came to the NBA?  Armstrong said in college he played on a team with David Robinson and Arvydas shredded him quite easily.  :)

Yes.  He was incredible but by time he got to the NBA, his body was pretty beaten down.  Those old USSR teams played a lot of basketball.  His NBA games was more old dude owning you at the Y than what he was overseas. 
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MuggsyB

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2021, 11:57:04 AM »
Yes.  He was incredible but by time he got to the NBA, his body was pretty beaten down.  Those old USSR teams played a lot of basketball.  His NBA games was more old dude owning you at the Y than what he was overseas.
[/quot

I remember his passing ability and the fact that he could barely get up and down the floor with the Blazers.  He's a rather large man but was stuck in cement when he tried to guard Shaq.  Could he shoot at all in his prime?

tower912

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Re: NBA 75th Anniversary Team
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2021, 12:02:24 PM »
He was a complete Euro big man in his prime.    Could shoot, pass, defend, rebound, post.    Complete.    But the years and miles were not kind to him.   So, yes, by the time he reached the NBA, he had slowed considerably.
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