New Frosh Class at MU

[Herman Cain]

What is missing is that great doctors and surgeons work as part of teams and communicate. Some doctors think they are THE  man/women and work in silos.  It is not good if you want good outcomes. Things have gotten way to complex.

So, yes, the ability to write and communicate is an essential skill. You all are paying to much to surgical technique.  That is a small part of most surgery or other medical "systems" and outcomes.

I'm too lazy to look up Mayo and the cooperation required of their doctors and how they hire.  But central to it is the ability to work with others across the system, share info, etc. It is amazing if you've experienced the difference.   These doctors and others are THE man/women but act like regular dudes.

If one has a complex medical situation , Mayo and their collaborative style gives you a great chance for success . I highly recommend it .

[Lennys Tap]

Good point.
Can you explain how a single standardized test taken as a teenager determines this differently and/or better than four years of high school, four years of undergrad, four years of medical school, five to seven years of residency and multi-day board exams?

If you have no realistic chance of ever being a heart surgeon I'd rather find it out in a few hours than live in some unrealistic dream world for 8 years or more. Of course having the intellect is only a pre qualifier that guarantees nothing - it only eliminates people.

[The Sultan]

Its all part of the vetting process. I have no problem with it. Its a merit based system and as such, there shouldn't be any shortcuts or points given for style.
As Al said when the waiter brought his lobster that had only 1 claw, "bring me the winner of that fight," hey?

No medical school cares what a candidates ACT score was.

[4everwarriors]

nm

[Pakuni]

If you have no realistic chance of ever being a heart surgeon I'd rather find it out in a few hours than live in some unrealistic dream world for 8 years or more. Of course having the intellect is only a pre qualifier that guarantees nothing - it only eliminates people.

You think going through four years of undergrad and four years of med school wouldn't reveal that a person has no realistic chance of being a heart surgeon, but an ACT score would?
Lenny, what is it that you believe makes someone capable of being a heart surgeon, and what portion of the ACT reveals that?

[Billy Hoyle]

No one said they were worthless.

But do you know what your surgeon would have scored on their ACT?  If you found out that a really great heart surgeon did score a 18 a decade plus years ago, would you not want him to operate on you?

I do care where they went to med school. My current MD went to Georgetown.

[Viper]

Well no.  Not really.

there certainly is a lag of accountability in American school systems. What planet do you live on?

[MUDPT]

I do care where they went to med school. My current MD went to Georgetown.

Why Georgetown?

[mileskishnish72]

there certainly is a lag of accountability in American school systems.

Saw this and reviewed your recent posts. Sometimes a little off-target as to the point but overall I'm becoming a fan.

[Lennys Tap]

You think going through four years of undergrad and four years of med school wouldn't reveal that a person has no realistic chance of being a heart surgeon, but an ACT score would?
Lenny, what is it that you believe makes someone capable of being a heart surgeon, and what portion of the ACT reveals that?

Of course not and of course I never said as much. A standardized test (I was thinking IQ and not necessarily ACT or SAT - though there is a great deal of overlap) isn't the end all and be all. But if the profession of your choice (like heart surgeon) is only available to the brightest it can tell a whole lot of people early in life whether their dream is realistic. To me that provides value.

Of course a medical school doesn't care what you got on an IQ test or the SAT. And major league teams don't care what your batting average was in Little League or Pony League. But how many guys who couldn't hit or throw a baseball by the time they were 12 or 14 make the show?

[Lennys Tap]

No one said they were worthless.

But do you know what your surgeon would have scored on their ACT?  If you found out that a really great heart surgeon did score a 18 a decade plus years ago, would you not want him to operate on you?

Assuming English as a first language, if I found a "really great" heart surgeon who scored an 18 (or 16, 14,12 etc.) on his ACT I'd eat your hat. And he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.

[GOO]

Since fewer and fewer students are taking the ACT, or if they have to take it they take it less seriously, and since it was pointed out that GPA is a better indicator of College success, some med programs may have problems choosing who gets admitted  without a real ACT score. I say that in jest, of course.

I suspect there are a lot of great doctors and surgeons who didn't score all that well on the ACT, especially from disadvantaged backgrounds. When I need to choose a doctor I'll start asking about high school GPA and ACT scores and start to correlate their success/reputation. Maybe if we all do it, we'll have a decent sample size in a decade and can check back.

Being real, I do know a dermatologist who didn't do so well on her MCAT but yet is in fact a dermatologist.

[real chili 83]

What do you call the student that finishes last in their class in medical school?









Doctor

[MU82]

So in 2031, folks won't trust a doctor who got her or his undergrad and advanced degrees from the University of Chicago because the school didn't insist upon ACT/SAT results when those eventual doctors were 17 years old?

[MUDPT]

A surgeon whom I know personally once said something I never forgot. He was tired of listening to some of his fellow surgeons espousing various techniques and procedures and said " You want to know what makes a good surgeon? One who knows exactly what to do and in what order when something unexpected goes horribly wrong during the operation."

This is number one.  Second, would be the humility and passion to be a lifelong learner.  As the past year has shown us, medicine rapidly evolves.  To be good at what you do, you have to knows the ins and outs of everything going on.

[Lennys Tap]

So in 2031, folks won't trust a doctor who got her or his undergrad and advanced degrees from the University of Chicago because the school didn't insist upon ACT/SAT results when those eventual doctors were 17 years old?

C'mon, man. Nobody said the ACT (or any other test) was a necessity for prospective doctors. It can't predict success but it can tell one when he's not being realistic about his future.

There can be other effective indicators that people don't have the "right stuff". For example, your conclusion above is indicative of poor reading comprehension - a condition that would eliminate Med school from your potential pursuits. Thankfully there was another career available for which it was not a requirement.

[Hards Alumni]

What do you call the student that finishes last in their class in medical school?









Doctor

Yup.   

[MU82]

There can be other effective indicators

Most of the rest of your post was silliness, but I'm glad you agree with this general thesis.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday, Tony.

[Lennys Tap]

Most of the rest of your post was silliness, but I'm glad you agree with this general thesis.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday, Tony.

Mike,

How does one reply to silliness except with more of the same? I assume your silliness was as intentional as mine was.

Happy Sunday!

[forgetful]

This is number one.  Second, would be the humility and passion to be a lifelong learner.  As the past year has shown us, medicine rapidly evolves.  To be good at what you do, you have to knows the ins and outs of everything going on.

I'm not going to enter the standardized exam debate. But I agree with this. I'll add a third. Know what you don't know.

One of my mentors drilled into us that the 2nd best answer to any question (the best, being the correct answer) is I don't know. He used to answer lots of questions in class, conferences, etc. with something very similar to, "You know what, I don't know, but get back to me in a couple days and I'll have an answer for you."

Amazingly brilliant man, was always willing to learn, and had absolute humility in understanding he did not know everything.

[The Sultan]

Assuming English as a first language, if I found a "really great" heart surgeon who scored an 18 (or 16, 14,12 etc.) on his ACT I'd eat your hat. And he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.

So you don't care how good a heart surgeon someone is, but if he had a poor ACT score in high school, that's a disqualifier for you?

So someone who struggled while in high school, but hit their stride in college, got a good enough GPA and MCAT to get into medical school and did everything they needed to excel in their profession isn't good enough?

So much for the ability to pull one up from their bootstraps and the American Dream hey?  Lenny's heart is too good for someone who struggled as a 17 year old.

[Jockey]

What do you call the student that finishes last in their class in medical school?






Doctor

Yeah, cute joke.

But the guy that finishes last in the class in Medical school is still a very smart guy or he never would have gotten in in the first place.

[Pakuni]

C'mon, man. Nobody said the ACT (or any other test) was a necessity for prospective doctors. It can't predict success but it can tell one when he's not being realistic about his future.

How do you feel about that U of Chicago report that indcated ACT scores can put students in academic situations for which they're unprepared?

[Lennys Tap]

So you don't care how good a heart surgeon someone is, but if he had a poor ACT score in high school, that's a disqualifier for you.

Never said or implied anything remotely close to this. If that's what you understood from what I posted I'm not surprised that you hate standardized tests where comprehension is necessary.

What I did say is that a low IQ or struggles on standardized tests  can be indications that a career as a heart surgeon is a bridge too far. 

[Lennys Tap]

So someone who struggled while in high school, but hit their stride in college, got a good enough GPA and MCAT to get into medical school and did everything they needed to excel in their profession isn't good enough?

So much for the ability to pull one up from their bootstraps and the American Dream hey?  Lenny's heart is too good for someone who struggled as a 17 year old.

"Struggling in high school" is beside the point. I know a lot of really smart people who screwed around and got middling or worse grades in high school and then went on to great things - but none of those people struggled with IQ or standardized tests. It was always clear they were smart enough.

I'm a big believer in the American Dream and the success that hard work can bring to all - not just the most gifted. But I'm a realist. Some professions require special qualities - be they physical or mental. To tell a 17 year old who is small, slow and clumsy that he has a future in the NBA is silly and a little cruel. Same goes for telling a 17 year old with a 95 IQ or an 16 or 18 on the ACT that a career as a heart surgeon awaits.