collapse

* 2021-2022 SOTG Tally


2021-22 Season SoG Tally
Lewis7
Morsell5
Kolek2
Kuath2
Elliott1
Ighodaro1
Mitchell1

'20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

22-23 W-L Predictions by tower912
[Today at 01:36:20 PM]


More conference realignment talk by WhiteTrash
[Today at 01:31:25 PM]


Our coach isn't "top tier," but he ain't half bad by WhiteTrash
[Today at 01:27:53 PM]


2022 Team Outlook by The Lens
[Today at 12:43:09 PM]


NM by warriorchick
[Today at 12:42:02 PM]


EGB's by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 06:54:42 AM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: Blue and Gold Scrimmage @ the Al

Marquette
Marquette

B&G Scrimmage

Date/Time: Oct 8, 2022, 10:00 am
TV: NA
Schedule for 2021-22
19-13

Author Topic: More conference realignment talk  (Read 112470 times)

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 20125
  • SPELLS! MAGIC!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2021, 10:12:19 AM »
I get it. But if you're Northwestern,  Duke , Iowa St. or Arizona you at least have(d) a small chance.

Why would the big conferences be upset if one of their member schools won a championship? They get paid equally no matter what.

As for basketball,  I agree it is different but football is the driving force in college sports. The revenues are 10X that of basketball.

You keep bringing this up and no one has challenged it. Of course football is the driving force. That doesn't mean that they are going to fold college basketball if it is profitable. You realize that if the P4 leave the NCAA like you say they will, they aren't bound by the NCAA's rules and can treat football and basketball independently. They can do what's best for both sports...which is exactly what they would do because maximizing profit is the goal.

Why did Texas leave a conference that it could possibly win and get to the CFP to be the 6th best team in the SEC?  Money?

Yes, because of money. Do you think it is something different? Money is the reason why they won't do many of the things that you are suggesting.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2021, 10:44:41 AM »
TAMU, I really hope you are right. I spent $3K taking my wife, daughter and a friend to the MU v DePaul game in 2020. Such a great time. I love MU and MU hoops. I support MU on a modest level and hope it and the Big East will thrive. I also send Creighton $50k per year. I'm all in on MU and the Big East. But I see more changes in the future.  I never thought I'd see a school like Kansas on the outside, yet here we are.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2021, 11:04:19 AM »
I get it. But if you're Northwestern,  Duke , Iowa St. or Arizona you at least have(d) a small chance.

As for basketball,  I agree it is different but football is the driving force in college sports. The revenues are 10X that of basketball.

Why did Texas leave a conference that it could possibly win and get to the CFP to be the 6th best team in the SEC?  Money?


The Big 14 will never force a situation that subtracts Northwestern.  It’s in an attractive market and the academics still matter to the presidents of the schools making up the league.  Now, would things change if schools like Ohio State and Penn State start openly flirting with the SEC or a new “super conference”?  Perhaps

If you look at part of the reasoning for the new “alliance”, part of it is the flipping sanctity of the Rose Bowl.  You’re overestimating the Big 14’s desire to upset the current structure of college sports. 

Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 20125
  • SPELLS! MAGIC!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2021, 11:08:45 AM »
TAMU, I really hope you are right. I spent $3K taking my wife, daughter and a friend to the MU v DePaul game in 2020. Such a great time. I love MU and MU hoops. I support MU on a modest level and hope it and the Big East will thrive. I also send Creighton $50k per year. I'm all in on MU and the Big East. But I see more changes in the future.  I never thought I'd see a school like Kansas on the outside, yet here we are.

I guess I just don't find these changes as shocking as you do. I called this back in 2011 and have been talking about how Kansas would get left out and maybe that could lead to a situation where the Big East adds Kansas basketball ever since. None of these changes lead to me believe that college sports as we know it is over. Power is getting more and more consolidated, but a universal truth about those in power is that they love the status quo.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Dr. Blackheart

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10773
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2021, 11:29:33 AM »
I guess I just don't find these changes as shocking as you do. I called this back in 2011 and have been talking about how Kansas would get left out and maybe that could lead to a situation where the Big East adds Kansas basketball ever since. None of these changes lead to me believe that college sports as we know it is over. Power is getting more and more consolidated, but a universal truth about those in power is that they love the status quo.

Wasn't the BE/Old BE merger pretty close back then with OU and Texas looking at the PAC? Instead the New BE and New AAC were born as Texas was appeased at that time.

I had heard it was a lot closer to being done back then if UT jumped than people knew.

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2021, 11:41:03 AM »


The Big 14 will never force a situation that subtracts Northwestern.  It’s in an attractive market and the academics still matter to the presidents of the schools making up the league.  Now, would things change if schools like Ohio State and Penn State start openly flirting with the SEC or a new “super conference”?  Perhaps

If you look at part of the reasoning for the new “alliance”, part of it is the flipping sanctity of the Rose Bowl.  You’re overestimating the Big 14’s desire to upset the current structure of college sports.
"Academics still matter" ? Is that why the Big10 added Nebraska? The truth is if the Big 10 could kick out Northwestern and add money to each school, they will. This is a very real scenario. 

If that happens,  I'd take NW in the Big East. I concede that's a big 'if'.

Sultan Sultanberger

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8086
  • Send it in medium-sized fella!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2021, 11:49:08 AM »
You aren't going to see conferences kick out members.  There are likely punitive rules that would prevent this from happening.  What you would see is the top programs leave to join another conference like you saw with the Big 12.

So the Big Ten isn't kicking out Northwestern.  If anything would happen, it would be Ohio State and Michigan departing for elsewhere.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2021, 11:54:14 AM »
You aren't going to see conferences kick out members.  There are likely punitive rules that would prevent this from happening.  What you would see is the top programs leave to join another conference like you saw with the Big 12.

So the Big Ten isn't kicking out Northwestern.  If anything would happen, it would be Ohio State and Michigan departing for elsewhere.
I would agree. I could see that with Penn State too.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2021, 12:08:04 PM »
"Academics still matter" ? Is that why the Big10 added Nebraska? The truth is if the Big 10 could kick out Northwestern and add money to each school, they will. This is a very real scenario. 

If that happens,  I'd take NW in the Big East. I concede that's a big 'if'.

For the millionth time, Nebraska was an AAU member when they joined the league and the Big 14 isn’t kicking anyone out
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2021, 12:20:45 PM »
For the millionth time, Nebraska was an AAU member when they joined the league and the Big 14 isn’t kicking anyone out
Okay, so Nebraska was added for their academic prestige. Got it.

I think the scenario put forth of OSU, PSU and Michigan leaving for a super conference is most likely.

I would agree that Northwestern will not get kicked out but nothing would surprise me.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2021, 12:25:21 PM »
Okay, so Nebraska was added for their academic prestige. Got it.

I think the scenario put forth of OSU, PSU and Michigan leaving for a super conference is most likely.

I would agree that Northwestern will not get kicked out but nothing would surprise me.

Nebraska wasn’t added for their academic prestige but it was a condition of being added at the time. 
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2021, 01:43:41 PM »
Based on the presser about the alliance, I can confidently say it will be a colossal failure
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2021, 02:00:00 PM »
Based on the presser about the alliance, I can confidently say it will be a colossal failure
Agreed.  I don't get it. We all know the SEC is becoming a real powerhouse but the "alliance' is silly. Michigan, OSU or a North Carolina will drop their conference like a bad habit in a heart beat if invited.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2021, 02:05:18 PM »
Agreed.  I don't get it. We all know the SEC is becoming a real powerhouse but the "alliance' is silly. Michigan, OSU or a North Carolina will drop their conference like a bad habit in a heart beat if invited.

Yup.  It’s a nothing burger.  I see saw some college basketball folks talking about scheduling but leagues like the Big East will happily fill the void with the SEC.  Given population trends, you’d rather play some games in the south
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2021, 02:25:31 PM »
As Paul Finebaum said, it's embarrassing.

God bless the Big East.

Sultan Sultanberger

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8086
  • Send it in medium-sized fella!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2021, 03:19:37 PM »
The Big Ten, Pac 12 and ACC didn't need to say or do anything.  But they did, and it wasn't very compelling.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

WhiteTrash

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2021, 07:10:41 PM »
So what happens to the Big XII? I believe  most of those schools spend more on football/athletics than the ACC or PAC 12 schools. I'll assume it goes away but the Oklahoma States. Baylors, Texas Techs and Kansases are some major programs.  Very interesting.

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 20125
  • SPELLS! MAGIC!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2021, 11:29:39 PM »
So what happens to the Big XII? I believe  most of those schools spend more on football/athletics than the ACC or PAC 12 schools. I'll assume it goes away but the Oklahoma States. Baylors, Texas Techs and Kansases are some major programs.  Very interesting.

The PAC 12 commissioner said that they could decide as soon as this week add new members. I don't know if that means they have targets in mind or if they just means that they will decide whether or not to even consider new members. Assuming they do try to expand, I imagine Texas Tech and Oklahoma State are likely targets. Maybe TCU and Baylor too if they want to get to 16.

Before this alliance nonsense, my assumption was that the next move would be for the B1G to raid the ACC which in turn would cause the ACC to raid the remains of the B12 and the best AAC programs. Now that they are "allied" I wonder if that means the B1G is not going to expand. I don't see the B1G being interested in any of the B12's scraps or AAC...and they don't have the juice to steal from the SEC, so if they expand I think it has to be by taking ACC programs.

It will be interesting to see who ends up where.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2588
  • Retire #34
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2021, 12:04:48 AM »
The PAC 12 commissioner said that they could decide as soon as this week add new members. I don't know if that means they have targets in mind or if they just means that they will decide whether or not to even consider new members. Assuming they do try to expand, I imagine Texas Tech and Oklahoma State are likely targets. Maybe TCU and Baylor too if they want to get to 16.

Before this alliance nonsense, my assumption was that the next move would be for the B1G to raid the ACC which in turn would cause the ACC to raid the remains of the B12 and the best AAC programs. Now that they are "allied" I wonder if that means the B1G is not going to expand. I don't see the B1G being interested in any of the B12's scraps or AAC...and they don't have the juice to steal from the SEC, so if they expand I think it has to be by taking ACC programs.

It will be interesting to see who ends up where.

The ACC grant of rights extends another 14 years. Per Heather Dimich on Dan Patrick this morning, an ACC team looking to leave right now would have to pony up over $500 million.

I can’t see the Big Ten interested in Kansas. Being dreadful in football doesn’t matter to them (see: Rutgers), but who next to get to 16? ND will always be their ultimate prize abd they have great bargaining power right now.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

Sultan Sultanberger

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8086
  • Send it in medium-sized fella!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2021, 07:37:52 AM »
Theoretically, the Big Ten wouldn't HAVE to get to 16.  You could make it work with 15 teams.  They could just eliminate the divisions entirely and have the top two teams meet in the championship game a la the ACC last year.  It would guaranty better match ups than Ohio State versus some random, bad West team.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 20125
  • SPELLS! MAGIC!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2021, 07:40:49 AM »
The ACC grant of rights extends another 14 years. Per Heather Dimich on Dan Patrick this morning, an ACC team looking to leave right now would have to pony up over $500 million.

I can’t see the Big Ten interested in Kansas. Being dreadful in football doesn’t matter to them (see: Rutgers), but who next to get to 16? ND will always be their ultimate prize abd they have great bargaining power right now.

Yeah,  I know about the grant of rights,  I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Sultan Sultanberger

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8086
  • Send it in medium-sized fella!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2021, 07:45:54 AM »
Yeah,  I know about the grant of rights,  I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.


My guess is that they are already negotiating an early exit, or will announce a move for either 2022 or 2023 pretty soon and make the B12 take them to court.  You can't have divorced people living in the same house.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 07:53:36 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2021, 07:50:31 AM »
Yeah,  I know about the grant of rights,  I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.

Lawyers at FSU, UNC, UVA and Clemson amongst others are certainly exploring all legal options at the moment or should be.  The one thing working in the favor of the ACC is their relationship with ESPN.  ESPN will make it attractive to ACC schools to stand pat, I’d think.  The ACC is wise to play both sides of the fence at this moment
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Scoop Snoop

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2021, 08:01:15 AM »
Yeah,  I know about the grant of rights,  I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.

From holyland site:



written 9 years ago

By Jason Hutzler

That a grant of rights prevents conferences from being raided is a myth. The Big 12 is still vulnerable because Texas and Oklahoma are still in play to be gobbled up in conference realignment. To give you some background, I am a contract lawyer in Phoenix. I litigate a lot of contracts. Some that have liquidated damages clauses and some that don’t.

At the end of the day, the liquidated damages clause is essentially an estimate by the parties of the expectant damages in the case of a breach. The liquidated damage clause cannot be used to punish the breaching party, but is used to indemnify the non-breaching party. An exit fee provision is a liquidated damage clause. Because it cannot be used to punish, they are often negotiated down from the stated fee.

Contracts that don’t have a liquidated damage clause have two remedies available to the non-breaching party; specific performance and compensatory damages. Contract law enforces the expectancy interests between contracting parties, providing redress for parties who fail to receive the benefit of their bargain. However, courts rarely use specific performance as a remedy, especially in an instance when compensatory damages are easily calculated.

A grant of rights is a contract between each individual school and the conference pledging the school’s media rights to conference for a number of year. Like all contracts, it can be broken. School X, member of Conference A who has granted its media rights to Conference A, thinks it can make more money in Conference B. So School X leaves Conference A for Conference B placing its media rights in Conference B. Now School X’s games will be distributed by both confernces. At this point School X has breached the grant of rights agreement, Conference A will sue School X over the media rights under the grant of rights agreement.

Conference A would love to force School X to leave its media rights with Conference A, requesting a court require specific performance of the grant of rights. This is the threat of the grant of rights, the tie that binds so to speak. If a court were to elect the specific performance remedy then School X of course provides no value to Conference B. However, because specific performance is often difficult to enforce and requires more of the court’s resources most courts rarely ever use this remedy.

Courts are even less inclined to use it when there is an easy way to calculate damages. The resulting damages from a breach of grant of rights are easily calcualable. There is no reason to believe that a court would require specific performance in a suit over a breach of a grant of rights.

The court is going to look at the value and duration of the media rights deal between Conference A and the networks. Then it will look at the duration of the grant of rights by School X to Conference A. Is the media rights deal worth less for the remainder of the grant of rights. If it is then this is the measure of damages School X must pay Conference A. My premise is that the networks have never reduced their payout to an existing contract, and there is no evidence they will going forward.

In 2003, the Big East is raided for two of its name brand schools, and a regionally significant school. The Big East added some lesser brands, and their media partners did not reduce their ongoing media deal. 2010, the Big 12 lost 2 schools in Colorado and Nebraska, did not replace those schools, and the Big 12 lost a significant amount of content (1/6th) in football and basketball. The Big 12’s media partners did not reduce the payout on existing contracts but actually negotiated for more money on an expiring one. 2011, Texas A&M and Missouri left, the Big 12 replaced them with less valuable TV properties in TCU and WVU, and neither ESPN or FOX required a reduction in the payout to the Big 12. 2012, Maryland leaves the ACC for the Big 10, ACC replaces them with a less valuable media property. Not a single word is mentioned about a reduced payout for the ACC.

Networks, and one specifically, won’t reduce the amount they pay to the conferences because it would violate their fiduciary duties to the conferences. Because one network (ESPN) has a hand in every league’s media deal (except new Big East if it even exists) it can’t in good faith pay one league more for raiding one league, then reducing its payout to league that was raided.

Because there is no evidence there would be a reduced payout to the league, the damages calculation is simple. The media deal for Conference A remains unchanged despite School X leaving, therefore there would be no damages for breach of grant of rights. The Big 12 grant of rights runs concurrently to media deals. So unless the networks change their strategy and go against precedent and start reducing the payouts to leagues, the only thing that binds these schools is money. Once the SEC starts its network there will be a new conference shuffle, and the Big 12 is still vulnerable.


Written by Clay Travis
Clay Travis is an author, radio show host, lawyer, TV analyst, and the founder and lead writer of Outkick, forme...


 

"Your words don't mean anything to me. Argument doesn't have any effect on me."
Doc Burton: "I wasn't arguing. I was asking for information. All of you people get angry when you're asked a question."
                                           
                Excerpt from a Steinbeck novel.

Sultan Sultanberger

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8086
  • Send it in medium-sized fella!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2021, 08:20:21 AM »
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense, and why it is in the interest of both parties to just negotiate an early exit.  If the SEC is offering THAT much more money to UT and OU, it shouldn't be hard to figure something out.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow