2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[Jockey]

I like this list . In my experience Jerry West was a game Changing force on the court and a top 5 level player .
Had a huge competitive desire,tough as nails, incredible athleticism could jump to the moon and had very broad shoulders with long arms ,   was excellent on offense and defense and incredible basketball knowledge . His name was Mr Clutch for a reason.

I completely understand why some have him as a top 10 player. He was arguably as important to some of those Lakers teams as Steph is for GS.

[Billy Hoyle]

Bird's stats are crazy though.  He was clearly a very good rebounder and passer.

Hell yes he was. And even after his back started giving out he averaged 24, 19, and 20 ppg. He also averaged, for his career, 1.9 threes attempted per game.

[MuggsyB]

I completely understand why some have him as a top 10 player. He was arguably as important to some of those Lakers teams as Steph is for GS.

West and Baylor are probably overlooked because they have 1 title between them.  Well before my time but West had always stated Baylor was better than him.  Speaking of insane stats.  He also was the original athletic wing player.  The other thing that's tough is back in the 60's the Celtics were just better than everyone. 5 Hall of Famers?  Russell is a really hard one for me.  He's obviously the greatest winner,, leader, and perhaps defender in the history of the game.  He also may be the smartest player ever. Yet the vast majority of hoops aficionados would not slot him ahead of Chamberlain.  It's so tough. 

[MuggsyB]

I agree. Barry would win numerous scoring titles today with the 3 point shot. But there is no evidence he would be a better player.

He's certainly arrogant but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong.  He was still a heck of a player.

[MuggsyB]

How good was Moses?  Seems underrated to me. 

[The Sultan]

How good was Moses?  Seems underrated to me. 

He was very good.  But since he signed with the Sixers to get his ring, his career should be downgraded.   

But in all seriousness, he was Kareem's top contemporary in the late 70s / early 80s who just didn't have the team around him in Houston.  I mean, he dragged the Rockets to the Finals in 1981 by dominating Kareem in the first round.

When he signed in Philly, it was a HUGE deal.  Everyone knew they were the team to beat.

[StillAWarrior]

He was very good.  But since he signed with the Sixers to get his ring, his career should be downgraded.   

But in all seriousness, he was Kareem's top contemporary in the late 70s / early 80s who just didn't have the team around him in Houston.  I mean, he dragged the Rockets to the Finals in 1981 by dominating Kareem in the first round.

When he signed in Philly, it was a HUGE deal.  Everyone knew they were the team to beat.

Someone needs to do a "Where are they now?" retrospective on that kid starting into the camera from between Malone's legs.

[Jockey]

How good was Moses?  Seems underrated to me.

Fluff is right. He was really good - definitely a top 20 all-time.

[The Sultan]

Someone needs to do a "Where are they now?" retrospective on that kid starting into the camera from between Malone's legs.

I think they superimposed him over a crowd shot so the guy wasn't literally looking through his legs!

But I swear I once saw a "where are they now" about the dude with the painter's cap on the right and he was about as Philly as you can get.  This was probably 15-20 years ago.

[Herman Cain]

How good was Moses?  Seems underrated to me.

Elvin Hayes in the forgotten group as well

[MuggsyB]

Moses was much skinnier in his early years.  He clearly was a prime-time problem on the glass.  I would slot him on my all-time cool team and probably top 20 ever if you look at his resume. May he rest in peace. 

[MuggsyB]

Top 5 picks NBA draft?  The consensus seens to be Smith #1.  I have some concerns about Holmgren.  The two guys that I think have great pro potential are Banchero and Ivey.  Better pro Murray or Johnny Davis?

[Uncle Rico]

Top 5 picks NBA draft?  The consensus seens to be Smith #1.  I have some concerns about Holmgren.  The two guys that I think have great pro potential are Banchero and Ivey.  Better pro Murray or Johnny Davis?

Murray

[MuggsyB]

Murray

Would you take Holmgren number 2?  Ahead of Banchero and Ivey?  Maybe the potential is there but I think he could be two years away. 

[Uncle Rico]

Would you take Holmgren number 2?  Ahead of Banchero and Ivey?  Maybe the potential is there but I think he could be two years away.

I'd take Holmgren 1.  I like Banchero as the safest bet but who knows.  A lot will depend on fit and organizational competence

[MuggsyB]

I'd take Holmgren 1.  I like Banchero as the safest bet but who knows.  A lot will depend on fit and organizational competence

Ivey is a burner and my fav player in the draft.  He has that 6th gear.  The thing about taking Holmgren  1 is that there are no guarantees he will re-sign for his 2nd contract. 

[Uncle Rico]

Ivey is a burner and my fav player in the draft.  He has that 6th gear.  The thing about taking Holmgren  1 is that there are no guarantees he will re-sign for his 2nd contract.

I mean, there aren't any guarantees anyone signs a 2nd contract

[PGsHeroes32]

Ivey is a burner and my fav player in the draft.  He has that 6th gear.  The thing about taking Holmgren  1 is that there are no guarantees he will re-sign for his 2nd contract.

You must of watched some select games.

He settled a lot at times rather than relentlessly attack. And his D was borderline sad most of the year.

Hes a very high upside lottery pick. But I didnt see any special gear on Ivey that the rest fail to have.

[MuggsyB]

I mean, there aren't any guarantees anyone signs a 2nd contract

True, but I think he's two years away. 

[JWags85]

Top 5 picks NBA draft?  The consensus seens to be Smith #1.  I have some concerns about Holmgren.  The two guys that I think have great pro potential are Banchero and Ivey.  Better pro Murray or Johnny Davis?

Murray is 6'8/6'9, shoots 40% from deep, and has a really varied offensive game.  Also has a huge wingspan and a big vertical

Davis is 6'5, not a great shooter from deep, and his combine athletic stats kind of stunk.  I think he had like a 23' vertical.

Regardless of Davis being a Badger, Murray is a huge upside prospect and Davis is just kind of a safe pick.  I think he can be a decent rotation guy but won't be a star.  Or he ends up like Dekker.  He's a fantastic college player, just not entirely sold on him as an NBA guy.

[MuggsyB]

You must of watched some select games.

He settled a lot at times rather than relentlessly attack. And his D was borderline sad most of the year.

Hes a very high upside lottery pick. But I didnt see any special gear on Ivey that the rest fail to have.

I guess that's fair, I only saw him four times.  I'm not saying he's Morant, Iverson, or Wade but I do think he has solid blow-by speed. 

[MU82]

I would have Curry ahead of both of them.  Let's just start with the fact and reiterate that he just won a title, at 34, with Andrew Wiggins as his #2.  Now when it comes to the top 10 it's extremely difficult because eras are impossible to compare, guys train much differently, and the game has changed a lot.  For example I don't look at Wilt, Shaq, Jabbar, Duncan, or Russell as players that can't be high on the list.  I also believe it's important to recognize that that there were far fewer teams in the past and that an argument can be made that the competition was better on a regular basis, not worse.

The bottom line is it's very difficult to rank players because the post game really doesn't exist anymore and bigs in particular didn't handle the ball and play on the perimeter like they do today.  At the same time that doesn't mean people would rate Jabbar or Duncan behind Anthony Davis and Tatum.  At least not right now. 

But since it's fun to rank and discuss I will share my top 10 and where I would slot Curry.  I can't put him ahead of Jordan, Jabbar, or James and I would imagine most would echo this sentiment.  After that is where it gets tough.  You have the Magic, Bird, Wilt tier.....is Curry realistically in their class or better?  Wilt changed the game and statistically was unmatched.  Magic and Bird also changed the game but had much shorter careers than Curry.   And guess what?  Curry isn't done.  He may get a 5th ring and three as the #1 option.  As for Wilt?  Yes, he only has two rings but he played against a Celtics team with much greater overall talent. 

Anyway, here is my top 10:

10) Russell
9)  Shaq
8) Duncan
7) Bird
6) Magic
5) Chamberlain
4) Curry
3) James
2) Jabbar
1) Jordan

* Statistically is very difficult not to have Robertson in the Top 10

** Olajuwon, Kobe, and Durant were hard to leave off.

*** Giannis and Doncic could one day be considered

**** Curry trails only one player as the best pound for pound of all-time and can't catch him because he's a foot taller. 

Thanks for the response, Muggs.

I agree that what Curry accomplished this season was special, yet another great achievement in a great career.

I like your list because you're being honest and taking a swing at a very difficult thing to do, as you mentioned in your post.

For me, the only player on your list I'd put Curry ahead of is Shaq, and even him I'm not certain about. But I don't claim to know I'm "right." There's no way to prove any of this.

I could nitpick about other things but that's kinda the whole idea of these conversation-starter kinds of things. It's why people love lists and rankings (or love to hate lists and rankings).

I also agree with 9-9-9 that West is underrated ... but everybody can't be in the top 10.

My top three would be Michael, LeBron and Magic, but I wouldn't be the least bit bothered by anybody who thinks Kareem, Russell and/or Wilt should be in there, too.

I also tend to agree with what Barry is saying -- not only about himself but applying it to many others. I think if the most driven of the 60s, 70s and 80s era players were competing today, they would have trained to be bigger, stronger and more agile. And in the case of the non-centers, they'd have focused a lot more on 3-point shooting.

But of course we don't know that.

Of course. We don't "know" lots of things on this subject (and many others). It's literally impossible to "know" how Rick Barry or Larry Bird or Moses Malone would do today. But these are fun conversations that let us speculate a lot.

[MuggsyB]

Thanks for the response, Muggs.

I agree that what Curry accomplished this season was special, yet another great achievement in a great career.

I like your list because you're being honest and taking a swing at a very difficult thing to do, as you mentioned in your post.

For me, the only player on your list I'd put Curry ahead of is Shaq, and even him I'm not certain about. But I don't claim to know I'm "right." There's no way to prove any of this.

I could nitpick about other things but that's kinda the whole idea of these conversation-starter kinds of things. It's why people love lists and rankings (or love to hate lists and rankings).

I also agree with 9-9-9 that West is underrated ... but everybody can't be in the top 10.

My top three would be Michael, LeBron and Magic, but I wouldn't be the least bit bothered by anybody who thinks Kareem, Russell and/or Wilt should be in there, too.

I also tend to agree with what Barry is saying -- not only about himself but applying it to many others. I think if the most driven of the 60s, 70s and 80s era players were competing today, they would have trained to be bigger, stronger and more agile. And in the case of the non-centers, they'd have focused a lot more on 3-point shooting.

Of course. We don't "know" lots of things on this subject (and many others). It's literally impossible to "know" how Rick Barry or Larry Bird or Moses Malone would do today. But these are fun conversations that let us speculate a lot.

Curry's size and defensive liabilities are the biggest reason I can see leaving him outside (no pun intended) the top 10..  But I also think you can make an argument that offensively, because of the way the game is played today, he's as impactful as any player on this list with the exception of Jordan.  And what makes him most unique among this particular group is he can score with the ball going 94 feet, off the dribble as well in the half-court, and off the ball running all day around screens.

His endurance is remarkable and he also changes the geometry of the floor unlike these other guys.  Because of his presence guys get much easier opportunities.  No one can score on this list with the variety of shots or spots on the court like Curry.  And he also has that sweet tommy-gun release and "you must be joking" range combined with a myriad of floaters.  He's the most skilled overall offensive player I've ever seen and this "best shooter" narrative is frankly underselling his greatness.

[MUBurrow]

I don't love Ivey or Davis as pros, especially Davis. He strikes me as a guy who projects as a volume scorer on a second unit or starter on a crappy team.  If I were in that mid-late lottery range, I'd take Sharpe, Murray, and Mathurin ahead of either of them.

[MuggsyB]

Very sad news.  Caleb Swanigan dead at 25 yrs old.