Coach K retiring after this season

[Lennys Tap]

Coach K is plenty egotistical and narcissistic.  But a retiring, successful coach lobbying for his assistant is hardly new.  John Wooden, Dean Smith, Al McGuire, Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, etc. all did the same thing.

I just think the idea that he intentionally chose a bad candidate because he didn't want someone to overshadow his accomplishments is silly.  Dean Smith recruited Roy Williams to UNC after Doherty failed because having a former assistant succeed after him enhanced his legacy.

Do you think Jud Heathcote was upset that Tom Izzo accomplished more than he did?  Or was he proud that his protege climbed higher?  How about Rollie Massamino and Jay Wright?  My guess is the pride they had in their former assistant's accomplishments was enormous.

Guess you missed the word “outsider” in my post. In the one in a million chance that Scheyer picks up where K left off and equals or surpasses his accomplishments (like Izzo or Wright) I don’t know how K would feel. My guess is mixed emotions. But if an outsider did it (like Self at Kansas) I don’t think K would like it even a little. He won’t take that chance. Hence his anointment of an assistant who on the face of it appears unqualified for the job.

I’m not suggesting that K’s amazing legacy isn’t pretty much set in stone. Just that Scheyer’s performance (either success or failure) can only enhance it. An ultra successful outsider could (only very, very slightly) diminish it. (See Bill Self). K doesn’t seem to me the kind of guy who would take that admittedly small chance. Just my opinion.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

wE hAvE nO iDEa wHaT tHeY wOuLD dO.

K is the most powerful person on that campus.  Even after he leaves his presence will loom over the University and more importantly the basketball program (see Gtown the last 20 years post Big John). If K wanted Snyder, the University would have at least made a run at him.  Again, I doubt he would give up his NBA gig, but the point remains that K says jump and the University says how high.  Scheyer is the coach because K wants it.  If the University wanted it as well (personally doubt it) then that's just a happy coincidence for the University.

The University defered to what Coach K wanted.  Claiming that "the University" (which like any organization isn't a monolith but a bunch of individuals) would have wanted something different is both unproveable and irrelevant.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Guess you missed the word “outsider” in my post. In the one in a million chance that Scheyer picks up where K left off and equals or surpasses his accomplishments (like Izzo or Wright) I don’t know how K would feel. My guess is mixed emotions. But if an outsider did it (like Self at Kansas) I don’t think K would like it even a little. He won’t take that chance. Hence his anointment of an assistant who on the face of it appears unqualified for the job.

I’m not suggesting that K’s amazing legacy isn’t pretty much set in stone. Just that Scheyer’s performance (either success or failure) can only enhance it. An ultra successful outsider could (only very, very slightly) diminish it. (See Bill Self). K doesn’t seem to me the kind of guy who would take that admittedly small chance. Just my opinion.

How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job?  Seven years as an assistant isn't enough?  Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.

[Goose]

rocket

It would not be the first time a legend picked a poor replacement, possibly to enhance their legacy. I'm still upset Denny Crum was not hired at MU.

[Its DJOver]

The University defered to what Coach K wanted.  Claiming that "the University" (which like any organization isn't a monolith but a bunch of individuals) would have wanted something different is both unproveable and irrelevant.

As is the reciprocal.  Of course no University is going to come out and say that they all just do exactly what he wants. We're all just guys banging away our theories behind a keyboard.

The two points that I have been trying to get across are that (1). K's coaching tree is not as bad as some here claim.  Is Snyder's success solely because of the decade he spent under K?  Of course not.  Is he still a part of the K Coaching tree?  Absolutely.  and (2), when it comes to Duke, K gets what K wants.  Is there ever going to be any specific evidence that says Scheyer only got the job because K said so?  Probably not.  Is there a bunch of evidence over the last decades that suggests that K pretty much always gets his way?  Yes there is.

[MU82]

Scheyer: All-American player and national champion Duke; grad assistant 1 year Duke; assistant 8 years Duke.

Crean: Never played college basketball; grad assistant 1 year MSU; assistant 4 years W Ky; assistant 1 year Pitt; assistant 4 years MSU.

For better or worse, Scheyer is about as "qualified" for the Duke job as Crean was for the Marquette job.

[WhiteTrash]

How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job?  Seven years as an assistant isn't enough?  Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.

I think you answered your own question.

[Pakuni]

Were people saying the hiring of the "unqualified" Hubert Davis at UNC was part of a sinister plot by Roy Williams to preserve his legacy?

[StillAWarrior]

Scheyer: All-American player and national champion Duke; grad assistant 1 year Duke; assistant 8 years Duke.

Crean: Never played college basketball; grad assistant 1 year MSU; assistant 4 years W Ky; assistant 1 year Pitt; assistant 4 years MSU.

For better or worse, Scheyer is about as "qualified" for the Duke job as Crean was for the Marquette job.

With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.

[brewcity77]

How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job?  Seven years as an assistant isn't enough?  Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.

While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.

I'm not sure who they could've gotten had they opened up the search more, and I imagine part of the timing is to make sure that K got to both get his farewell tour and name his successor, but Scheyer feels like a stopgap measure to set up a big hire in 4-5 years.

Ultimately, I think the jobs that view themselves as blue bloods go one of two routes: someone truly proven and ready with a track record of success or someone "in the family." Kansas and Kentucky last went proven and ready with Self and Calipari (and Texas with Beard, I would argue) whereas UNC and Duke went in the family with Davis and Scheyer. I suppose going in the family saves the kind of embarrassment these programs sometimes end up with, such as how Indiana and UCLA looked to be settling on candidates far below their original targets (though Woodson and Cronin could both work out well). I guess this move lets Duke save face by not having to acknowledge Stevens turned them down while being better prepared for a big search if Scheyer does indeed fail. And if he wins 25+ every year, they look like geniuses.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.

I'm not sure who they could've gotten had they opened up the search more, and I imagine part of the timing is to make sure that K got to both get his farewell tour and name his successor, but Scheyer feels like a stopgap measure to set up a big hire in 4-5 years.

Ultimately, I think the jobs that view themselves as blue bloods go one of two routes: someone truly proven and ready with a track record of success or someone "in the family." Kansas and Kentucky last went proven and ready with Self and Calipari (and Texas with Beard, I would argue) whereas UNC and Duke went in the family with Davis and Scheyer. I suppose going in the family saves the kind of embarrassment these programs sometimes end up with, such as how Indiana and UCLA looked to be settling on candidates far below their original targets (though Woodson and Cronin could both work out well). I guess this move lets Duke save face by not having to acknowledge Stevens turned them down while being better prepared for a big search if Scheyer does indeed fail. And if he wins 25+ every year, they look like geniuses.

Right.  I mean, I don't think he will reach anywhere near the levels of Coach K success, and my guess is that he will not be there in five years, but that doesn't mean he was unqualified by any means.

[Billy Hoyle]

While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.

the difference is those guys had to go out on their own without the draw of Duke and all of the advantages that come with it. Duke is Duke, they are the most attractive hoops program in the nation. Kids want to go there. My friend's old teammate's kid is headed there despite his parents alma mater (where they both played) being in his back yard and some fishy stuff going on that pissed off mom. In the end "you can't say no to Duke." Scheyer is still going to have that. Those who went out on their own didn't.

[MU82]

With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.

Reasonable.

Of course, Duke's previous hire was a no-name whose last season at Army produced a 9-17 record.

And as Pakuni just pointed out, a "program like Duke" -- North Carolina -- just hired an inexperienced former player/assistant.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Boeheim is next, right after Buddy leaves.

[Hards Alumni]

Boeheim is next, right after Buddy leaves.

https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1400424288646221825

Adam Zagoria
@AdamZagoria
Now on @ForbesSports
 

Syracuse’s Jim Boeheim Not Retiring Anytime Soon, May Coach Until He’s 80 via @forbes

[Lennys Tap]

With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.

Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?

Just because they can attract higher quality candidates, that doesn't mean the selected candidate is "unqualified."  Promoting an assistant has been done at plenty of places that may have been able to attract a higher level coach.

[StillAWarrior]

Just because they can attract higher quality candidates, that doesn't mean the selected candidate is "unqualified."  Promoting an assistant has been done at plenty of places that may have been able to attract a higher level coach.

For the record, I'm not among the crowd saying he is unqualified. I was merely pointing out that some high profile programs have the ability to seek and attract higher qualified candidates -- even if they opt to stay within the family and hire someone with lesser qualifications.

[wadesworld]

Marquette just hired the former head coach of Texas, a 44 year old who has already been to a Final Four.  He seems fairly qualified to me?

[Pakuni]

Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?

I think you really need to account for the fact the assistant in this case is an assistant at the school where he's being hired, and that makes a huge difference.
Would Hubert Davis be considered qualified for Kentucky or Kansas?
Would Mark Adams have been considered for any top 40 program other than Texas Tech?
Mike Davis at IU? Rick Majerus at MU?

[avid1010]

Right.  I mean, I don't think he will reach anywhere near the levels of Coach K success, and my guess is that he will not be there in five years, but that doesn't mean he was unqualified by any means.

It's fun to banter on this one, and I understand both sides, but to play devil's advocate...  You don't think he will last, but you do feel he's qualified is interesting...when we hire people we rarely say "Well he likely won't make it 5 years but he has a few years of experience working under the person he's replacing so lets give him a shot."  So my head goes to a place where either they see something special in John (which they keep pointing to his recruiting as if recruiting to play for Coach K is same as recruiting to play for John), or Coach K. forced this and they went along with it.  UNC and Duke are both in trouble, IMHO...  I would also argue that from the little I know about John, he is unqualified to run a program with the expectations, media, fan base, etc... that Duke has...but perhaps that's some bias towards his age and variety of experiences. 

[Herman Cain]

Duke doing the coaching change properly by announcing successor now. All kids being recruited from this point forward know they will be playing for new coach.

I think Scheyer will put together some good recruiting classes . The questions will be :can he game coach and what roster management skills he has . As we have seen countless times, there is no substitute for head coaching experience.

Overall I am delighted to see K go. One less very talented coach out there that will hoard all the good talent.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It's fun to banter on this one, and I understand both sides, but to play devil's advocate...  You don't think he will last, but you do feel he's qualified is interesting...when we hire people we rarely say "Well he likely won't make it 5 years but he has a few years of experience working under the person he's replacing so lets give him a shot."  So my head goes to a place where either they see something special in John (which they keep pointing to his recruiting as if recruiting to play for Coach K is same as recruiting to play for John), or Coach K. forced this and they went along with it.  UNC and Duke are both in trouble, IMHO...  I would also argue that from the little I know about John, he is unqualified to run a program with the expectations, media, fan base, etc... that Duke has...but perhaps that's some bias towards his age and variety of experiences. 

He is qualified on paper.  But most coaches are fired and I think he will be as well.  That doesn't mean they weren't qualified when they were fired.  I mean, Wojo was qualified right?

[Dr. Blackheart]

I wonder how Nate James feels about all this?

[Skip Intro]

He is qualified on paper.  But most coaches are fired and I think he will be as well.  That doesn't mean they weren't qualified when they were fired.  I mean, Wojo was qualified right?

Scheyer will probably get two seasons to prove that he can keep things moving - this isn't a rebuild or complete reinvention, they're just passing the baton.  Getting time to recruit "his guys" or implementing "his system" doesn't really apply here.  If he isn't finishing top 4 in the ACC and getting a decent seed in the tourney by his second season, I'm willing to bet Duke moves on.

On the flip side, maybe Scheyer is the one guy who can keep things ticking in the Duke way, and his youth could be seen as a huge advantage in the current recruiting environment.  Coaches like Boeheim and Roy Williams bemoaning the reality of more transfers just proves that they're out of touch with the guys they're recruiting.   Scheyer will be, what, 34 when he takes over?  He probably won't have the same crusty mentality.